Long-Term Improvement: Blades Only, Or Blades And Persimmons?

[rwc356]

I've put together a set of "somewhat modern" clubs the I am using more and more this Summer. I use a TM 360 12 * driver cut down to 44" with graphite shaft. Picked up a set of Ping i3 blades, added a Ping Eye2 SW from the closet and a Ping Kushin putter. Fairway woods are still work in progress - currently using TM 200 steel 5w.

 

I put this set together due to the frustration I was feeling with my game (hickory and vintage clubs). Just seemed I wasn't able to practice enough combined with my increasing age equaled noticeable drop in distance and consistency. The "newer" technology has allowed me to regain the distance and looks like consistency will improve as well.

 

Not sure what will get more playing time as I move forward. Love the hickories and vintage but really hate to write those bigger numbers on the scorecard.

[TimV]

As you can probably see this is my first post after recently finding this site.

 

A little background on me and why I find this topic so interesting. To start with I'm a young 71 and just recently retired. When I stopped playing golf 9-10 years ago after tearing a rotator cuff, I was playing to a 7 handicap. Prior to the injury I played or hit balls 4-5 times a week. After the layoff I just didn't want to devote that kind of time the the game any longer. When I was playing I played blades ( Hogan Apex 2001 mostly ) and metal woods.

 

Now with more time I have started to hit balls and play a little. The blades are like old friends that are coming around, and they feel so good when hit on the screws. I'm also working through a number of persimmon woods, and intend to play those as well.

 

I have found that the love is still there, but in a different way. The pleasure of the journey is now more important than the fewest strokes to the hole.

 

Thanks for letting me indulge.

 

Cannon Cocker

 

Welcome Brother.

[Fellaheen51]

Welcome aboard C.C. Glad you found this small corner of the golf world. Where more than a few of us mix in classic blade and wood along with our other implements of use. Not because it makes playing easier. But because we find a degree of pleasure in hitting a golf ball with clubs of vintage. That sharing the "journey" with good friends is important. We appreciate the solitary round on a cool morning listening to the sounds, appreciating the environment we are immersed in, the quiet. Simply trying to play our best with each and every shot. The score becomes unimportant. The quality of the trying is.

 

Not read with much detail what's been posted in this thread. I would anser the original proposition by saying yes, I think one can improve. Sloppy swings are not rewarded playing wood and blade. Forces one to pay attention, particularly with persimmon, and develop a smooth and controlled swing. And I think that translates to when we play our more contemporary equipment.

 

I play '99 Hogan Apex blades as well. Almost exclusively this season. Simply because I hit them better than what was being used prior. And I'm most certainly nothing special when it comes to play. Persimmon, when I bring them out, are always a work in progress. But I do find enjoyment in the trying. During the right times, on the right course, often while playing solo. They're part of the journey.

 

So many beautiful courses we have here to play. And such a relatively short season. Have to get out and play while we can. May as well mix it up and enjoy the ride. Something to be said for showing up at the first tee with a classic bag and make a go of it. Guaranteed you'll be the only one pursuing the endeavor on any given day.

 

Be sure to stay engaged in this chronicles. Lots of good information and friendly folks around here.

[tatertot]

The swing for a persimmon and today's modern driver are 2 different swings. Perfecting a swing for the persimmon driver of days gone by is not going to help you hit a 2018 driver.

[Porker]

Stick to period correct balls with the persimmons but I recommend a modern driver with smaller head... TM mini driver looks good but I got hold of a 440 cobra. I just don't enjoy golf having to hit 4/5 irons to greens because of short drives, but many of you could probably belt a woody far enough so you don't have my demons. My irons combo is a mixed set of Hogan 99's, apex pro and ftx. Happy with them at 1" longer for distance but still a long way to go as I have only played 5 rounds since starting up again but many an hour at the range

[EmperorPenguin]

The swing for a persimmon and today's modern driver are 2 different swings. Perfecting a swing for the persimmon driver of days gone by is not going to help you hit a 2018 driver.

 

How so?

[TimV]

The swing for a persimmon and today's modern driver are 2 different swings. Perfecting a swing for the persimmon driver of days gone by is not going to help you hit a 2018 driver.

 

I respectfully, but completely, disagree. The tee height is different, where the ball is placed in the stance is different, but the swing itself is the same. This is where millions of golfers make a difficult game even harder for themselves! ONE SWING! Difficult enough to 'perfect' one. Attempting to master multiple swings for woods, and irons, and modern, and vintage, and... is madness. Ball height (on the tee) and position in the stance is all I change when swinging a golf club. Note: I am not referring here to pitching, chipping, or other 'specialty' shots but to the 90+ percent of swings we make in a round. There need only be one.

 

P.S. I also disagree with the need to use a 'period correct ball.'

I do strongly suggest using a low compression ball when playing vintage woods however.

[baloo]

A period correct ball I assume means old balatas, which just isn't realistic for most people. Too hard to find and expensive. Not to mention, they're performance can be compromised after sitting around for however many years.

 

Any modern ball you like is fine. I play a higher compression ball and have had zero issues. Like the feel too. The only time I broke a persimmon was at a driving range in 30 degree weather.

[hnryclay]

I play SrixonZStars with modern driver, and Wilson Duos with persimmons, i have switched them arojnd from time to time never had an issue. I might be going to the Duo Urethane full time I found some for a real good price.

[HoldenCornfield]

The score becomes unimportant. The quality of the trying is.

 

 

Great line! I intend to plagiarize it, just letting you know now. :)

[HoldenCornfield]

I play SrixonZStars with modern driver, and Wilson Duos with persimmons, i have switched them arojnd from time to time never had an issue. I might be going to the Duo Urethane full time I found some for a real good price.

 

Can you share the source? I haven't tried the Duo Urethane but would like to, if the price was right.

[oldschoolrocker]

Welcome to the fold CC. Lots of good people telling tales and sharing information here. I think you’ll like the experience.

[hnryclay]

Rock bottom golf has them for 2 for $60, which is about 20 dollars cheaper than i can buy Srixons.

[Chris122]

Stick to period correct balls with the persimmons but I recommend a modern driver with smaller head... TM mini driver looks good but I got hold of a 440 cobra. I just don't enjoy golf having to hit 4/5 irons to greens because of short drives, but many of you could probably belt a woody far enough so you don't have my demons. My irons combo is a mixed set of Hogan 99's, apex pro and ftx. Happy with them at 1" longer for distance but still a long way to go as I have only played 5 rounds since starting up again but many an hour at the range

 

I bought a 12 degree TM mini-driver which has been in my locker until today,played a stableford comp off yellow tees,bare minimum kit,mini-driver,5,7,9 '13 X-Forged irons,an old Vokey 56,old Ping bronze Anser,36 points with two 1 point holes and one blob on the 17th where I hit my only bad tee shot of the day.

Not exactly purist but the revelation was the performance of the mini-driver which I hit as far as any 46" 460cc driver and a lot straighter.

My intention is to match it with some vintage irons next week,probably Apex II's,I think it is a really viable alternative for anyone who is a bit leery of hitting persimmon yet wants a driver approximating vintage characteristics and will not look entirely out of place with older irons.

For reference mine is TM SLDR 12 deg.

[doctordwaynewilliams]

I have just started to play with blades and persimmon driver and woods. I was very skeptical at first. Coming from Ping Zings that were the most forgiving irons irons I have ever owned and a Ping K15 driver it was a mighty adjustment. I playing First Flight Golden Eagle irons and MacGregor Golden Bear driver, 3, and 5 woods. I also have a Wilson 8802 putter. I usually shoot in the mid to high 80s. My first round with blades and persimmons I shot a 92. But I missed 7 par putts within 10 feet which is highly unusual because putting is the best part of my game. And I was burning the edges. I struggled with the driver, but the fairway woods were golden. I hit the best 5 wood shots I have ever produced. The ball flight with the blade irons was a lot lower than what I'm used to. But I hit some quality shots after I got a feel for them. Adjusting how I set up with them was key. Going from majorly offset to very minimal offset was visually challenging. In the end I was pleased with my experiment and look forward to my next round with my blades and persimmon clubs.

[Chris122]

Due to the very dry weather and vagaries of the sprinkler system we currently have quite patchy greens with an abundance of poa annua,lengthy putts have become tricky with the old dance tempo of slow-slow-quick-quick-slow as the ball crosses from one patch to another.

Rather than change stroke or hit the ball harder I prefer to change putter so dug out the old Bullseye flange,trimmed a length of dowel to make it my length,Danny Edwards putter grip and Hey Presto!

Result was a lot of good two-putts from long range starting with about a 25-yarder from the front edge of the 1st,all uphill which I lagged to 2 feet and holed for par.

7 footer to save par on 2nd.

Crucially NO three-stabs!

So another thumbs up for outdated and old-fashioned equipment that lacks bells,whistles,plastic badges,tasteless graphics,radar antennae and a 'Made in China' sticker.

[Tumbleweed_1968]

Due to the very dry weather and vagaries of the sprinkler system we currently have quite patchy greens with an abundance of poa annua,lengthy putts have become tricky with the old dance tempo of slow-slow-quick-quick-slow as the ball crosses from one patch to another.

Rather than change stroke or hit the ball harder I prefer to change putter so dug out the old Bullseye flange,trimmed a length of dowel to make it my length,Danny Edwards putter grip and Hey Presto!

Result was a lot of good two-putts from long range starting with about a 25-yarder from the front edge of the 1st,all uphill which I lagged to 2 feet and holed for par.

7 footer to save par on 2nd.

Crucially NO three-stabs!

So another thumbs up for outdated and old-fashioned equipment that lacks bells,whistles,plastic badges,tasteless graphics,radar antennae and a 'Made in China' sticker.

You're not supposed to be able to do that with that prehistoric equipment..... Kudos

[oldschoolrocker]

Welcome to our world DocW. Most of us are in agreement that your scores will not increase much, if any, with regard to the Science Fictional equipment being touted by the modern OEM’s.

As Chris has borne witness with his use of the iconic Jurassic Bullseye putter.

The flanged fluted shaft model is my precision sidearm as well. I have twins of that model. One factory, one lead taped for faster greens.

[doctordwaynewilliams]

Welcome to our world DocW. Most of us are in agreement that your scores will not increase much, if any, with regard to the Science Fictional equipment being touted by the modern OEMs.

As Chris has borne witness with his use of the iconic Jurassic Bullseye putter.

The flanged fluted shaft model is my precision sidearm as well. I have twins of that model. One factory, one lead taped for faster greens.

Well thank you. I have been pondering using blades and persimmon clubs for a while but couldn't see the reason why anyone would play them. But I really enjoyed them. Especially the 8802 putter. That stick is pure. There is a feeling of satisfaction being able to play relatively well with clubs that others deem "impossible" to hit. Well, it is possible. They look great. And the feeling from the club and within yourself is awesome.

[scomac2002]

Due to the very dry weather and vagaries of the sprinkler system we currently have quite patchy greens with an abundance of poa annua,lengthy putts have become tricky with the old dance tempo of slow-slow-quick-quick-slow as the ball crosses from one patch to another.

Rather than change stroke or hit the ball harder I prefer to change putter so dug out the old Bullseye flange,trimmed a length of dowel to make it my length,Danny Edwards putter grip and Hey Presto!

Result was a lot of good two-putts from long range starting with about a 25-yarder from the front edge of the 1st,all uphill which I lagged to 2 feet and holed for par.

7 footer to save par on 2nd.

Crucially NO three-stabs!

So another thumbs up for outdated and old-fashioned equipment that lacks bells,whistles,plastic badges,tasteless graphics,radar antennae and a 'Made in China' sticker.

 

I think that there's a certain irony that the majority of putt-putt establishments still used bullseye style putters rather than some form of more modern implement. As a matter of fact, my lone "golfing" experience in the past 3 months was a round at one such place while out west visiting my son and DiL. As Chris has related, those darned bulleyes do work when dealing with less than ideal conditions and what could be less ideal than worn indoor/outdoor carpet artificial turf! :tongue: Too bad I don't putt like that when I'm on a golf course! Nevertheless, it was nice to not have to buy the beer and sausage rolls following the match...

[EmperorPenguin]

I have just started to play with blades and persimmon driver and woods. I was very skeptical at first. Coming from Ping Zings that were the most forgiving irons irons I have ever owned and a Ping K15 driver it was a mighty adjustment. I playing First Flight Golden Eagle irons and MacGregor Golden Bear driver, 3, and 5 woods. I also have a Wilson 8802 putter. I usually shoot in the mid to high 80s. My first round with blades and persimmons I shot a 92. But I missed 7 par putts within 10 feet which is highly unusual because putting is the best part of my game. And I was burning the edges. I struggled with the driver, but the fairway woods were golden. I hit the best 5 wood shots I have ever produced. The ball flight with the blade irons was a lot lower than what I'm used to. But I hit some quality shots after I got a feel for them. Adjusting how I set up with them was key. Going from majorly offset to very minimal offset was visually challenging. In the end I was pleased with my experiment and look forward to my next round with my blades and persimmon clubs.

 

Scores will be higher because you will be using longer clubs into the greens, since you will not hit it so far off the tee. This will force you to practice your long irons and fairway woods more. Of course, it would be a big help to practice your persimmon driver more so you can get farther off the tee. Whether approach shots or off the tee, you must work hard in your full-swing fundamentals to deliver the small sweet spot squarely to the back of the ball. In addition to missing so many greens, some by very far, you are left to rely on your chipping and pitch shots to get the ball close, and you will have to practice those more often, too. Finally, the 8802 putter--or any other heel-shafted blade putter for that matter--is very difficult to get the ball started on line, so you are forced to practice your putting as well.

 

See the value of low-tech equipment? Resist the temptation to mask your faults with technology and develop a more true, honest game. The more you practice and achieve, the more you realize that "the secret's in the dirt."

[Chris122]

I'm not sure that I agree about the difficulty of starting the ball on line with a blade putter.

I look at the putt from behind the ball.

Pick my spot and an imaginary line that will take the ball into the hole.

Set the blade at right angles to that line.

Short back.

Long through.

Blade continuing along the line.

And roll the ball in!

The beauty of simple putters to my mind is that the eye is not distracted by the Starship Enterprise,it's easier to focus on hitting the ball on the sweetspot without the peripheral visual distractions.

The sweetspot is more critical on blades and they are not always where you think.

I use an old-fashioned test on putters with a pencil that has an eraser on the end.

Holding the shaft loosely 'twixt thumb and forefinger I tap the rubber along the face of the blade until it hits the spot where the putter moves directly away from the strike without twisting.

[wkuo3]

It is a given that 43" persimmon will hit more fairways simply because the premise is that shorter shafts mean more accuracy. However, all my drivers are 43", even the titanium ones. Combine the larger sweet spot of a 460cc head and a 43" driver my accuracy is even greater.

 

However, I find also that a mishit of, say one inch away from the small sweet spot will lead to a painful feel in the hands coupled with a distance loss of fifty yards or more. In the long term, however, I suppose that this will force me to learn how to find the center of the face more, just like the old-school days. As the practice sessions increase and I get consistently closer to the center, my mishits will be, say, a half- or quarter-inch away from the center and I will still lose distance, but that will mean leaving me with medium or long irons to the green, which I also need to practice.

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe that every golfer should start with low-tech equipment first before graduating to the high-tech sticks and teeing it up with guys with the likes of today's studs. Low to high makes far better sense than high to low.

 

Darn, a majority of my persimmon drivers are 43"-44", A lot are 43 1/2" and 44" from the 70's and the 80"s which I still play.

The older more vintage drivers I tend not to play them a lot, because the wood had lost it's natural oil over the decades and could crack under playing pressure.

My gamer is a 440 cc 46", changed to 45" in the Winter month.

[wkuo3]

As you can probably see this is my first post after recently finding this site.

 

A little background on me and why I find this topic so interesting. To start with I'm a young 71 and just recently retired. When I stopped playing golf 9-10 years ago after tearing a rotator cuff, I was playing to a 7 handicap. Prior to the injury I played or hit balls 4-5 times a week. After the layoff I just didn't want to devote that kind of time the the game any longer. When I was playing I played blades ( Hogan Apex 2001 mostly ) and metal woods.

 

Now with more time I have started to hit balls and play a little. The blades are like old friends that are coming around, and they feel so good when hit on the screws. I'm also working through a number of persimmon woods, and intend to play those as well.

 

I have found that the love is still there, but in a different way. The pleasure of the journey is now more important than the fewest strokes to the hole.

 

Thanks for letting me indulge.

 

Cannon Cocker

 

Not many of us could enjoy and maintain playing golf at the top level all the time. Glade you had slowed down and smell the roses along the way.

I believe you will enjoy golf a lot more this way than trying to shave a few strokes off the handicap index.

 

Welcome to paradise.

[doctordwaynewilliams]

Today I'm playing with some Northwestern blade irons and a set of Northwestern maple laminate woods. I'm starting to embrace the challenge of vintage blades and wooden woods. I'm not finding it that difficult to hit them straight. They are different though. When I play, my only focus is on hitting a pure shot. I swing easy and pick a target and concentrate on that very small sweet spot.

[doctordwaynewilliams]

Need some explanation. I ditched my slightly newer technology this season in favor of more vintage clubs. My last few rounds I have been living on the fairways. Can someone explain to me why the persimmon drivers and fairway woods I have been playing with are so much straighter for me? I've never hit so many fairways. The 5 wood I have, I can stripe it down the line every time. Loving it, but trying to understand it.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Need some explanation. I ditched my slightly newer technology this season in favor of more vintage clubs. My last few rounds I have been living on the fairways. Can someone explain to me why the persimmon drivers and fairway woods I have been playing with are so much straighter for me? I've never hit so many fairways. The 5 wood I have, I can stripe it down the line every time. Loving it, but trying to understand it.

 

There's a possibility that your mishits aren't flying so far off target...

I found this when I played persimmon for the first time in over 20 years. My good drives weren't much different from my good drives with the bigger, more forgiving modern drivers. However, my bad drives were more shorter...but still in play! The more forgiving head was sending my bad drives out of bounds.

 

I like my modern driver a lot (Ping G400) because I can smash it, but I also love my persimmons, especially my Mizuno Blondie, because I love the feel of a nutted hit, and they are easier to work. I've got a round coming up on Monday, my first in a month, and I really want to take the persimmons, but the course is modern and may not be suited to them. I'm not sure. Then I have a round coming up in a fortnight on a (relatively) old course here that I know is just perfect for persimmons and old irons. My only dilemma at the moment is which iron set to take with the woods. RAM Tour Grinds, Mac Muirfield 20ths, Mac Muirfields, or Dunlop Australian Blades (TM-92?). Or even my Honma PP737s, from 3i to 11i....decisions, decisions....

[birly-shirly]

If it's a lasting improvement, I would guess it's because you've found a better fitting club rather than anything inherent to wooden heads.

 

An old 5 wood might be 22* loft and 41" in length - whereas similar specs in a current Callaway would be a 9 wood! Anything longer or less lofted is going to be harder to hit straight, all other things being equal. A steel shaft supports a shorter playing length, which is a good thing in itself, but it might even be that a heavier shaft, or the bend and torque characteristics, suit your swing better than a modern graphite shaft.

 

I've just gone through the process of reshafting an old steelhead 7 wood with a stiff steel shaft and it plays very nicely indeed.

[NRJyzr]

Need some explanation. I ditched my slightly newer technology this season in favor of more vintage clubs. My last few rounds I have been living on the fairways. Can someone explain to me why the persimmon drivers and fairway woods I have been playing with are so much straighter for me? I've never hit so many fairways. The 5 wood I have, I can stripe it down the line every time. Loving it, but trying to understand it.

 

 

When I first took my persimmon dive about 13 years ago, I noticed the same thing. I've never been a particularly straight driver of the golf ball, but I was considerably straighter with persimmons and laminates. And that's continued whenever I've used them.

 

A decade and more ago, Louisville Golf used to have something on their website, showing test results of their club versus a Callaway Hawkeye driver (it seems to have been run by someone else, with the limited info I could find). It showed the Smart Driver was straighter than the Callaway. Louisville Golf touted the gear effect as the reason.

 

If you've ever hit a persimmon towards the heel or toe, you probably know about gear effect. :)

 

Some folks would probably suggest the shorter club length would be a factor. To be fair, the heavier total weight is probably also a factor. I've generally played shorter than stock lengths in my driver, and this year have gone to the 43.5" length seen on many persimmon drivers. My results, while certainly anecdotal, show somewhat greater accuracy with the persimmons than with the various Ti sticks I've been using, which suggests club length isn't as big a player as some might expect.

 

I can't say exactly why they're straighter, though I have suspicions, so I just accept it as it is. :) I know going in to a persimmon round that I'll be on the fairways more, and it always works out.

 

Which begs the question, why don't I do it more often? LOL

 

(fwiw, the answer is because I've got techie tendencies, feel obliged to feed my inner nerd, and I'm not yet ready to give up the occasional bomb tee shot that I see less frequently with persimmons/laminates)

[TimV]

I would also suggest that smaller heads on both woods and irons makes one tend to focus more and try to 'smash' less.