Jimmy Walker admits to regularly breaking rule of golf on Twitter

[bladehunter]

i'm all for improving pace of play, but this rule needs to be rewritten. are we going to start ignoring rules because its faster?

 

Agree with this.

 

Recently had a guy try to advocate for not putting out based on the idea that it’s “ faster “. I just said “ what game is that ? We’re playing golf today ... so it takes as long as it takes “. FFS!

[davep043]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It would clearly have been against the rule a year ago, there was nothing in it about the reason the players agree to leave the ball. But now there is, and we have to assume that the RBs wrote it the way they intend it to be. As with the remainder of the new rules, I'm sure the RBs (I believe the R&A has jurisdiction in Thailand, but they'll work together with the USGA) will be watching how the rules are implemented, and could consider revisions and/or clarifications if what they're seeing is not what they intended.

[WidespreadPanic]

Speaking of breaking rules, Rickie just broke one. He shanked his 2nd shot OB and immediately dropped in the same place. But, he dropped it from shoulder height. Yikes.

[9400]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It would clearly have been against the rule a year ago, there was nothing in it about the reason the players agree to leave the ball. But now there is, and we have to assume that the RBs wrote it the way they intend it to be. As with the remainder of the new rules, I'm sure the RBs (I believe the R&A has jurisdiction in Thailand, but they'll work together with the USGA) will be watching how the rules are implemented, and could consider revisions and/or clarifications if what they're seeing is not what they intended.

 

Fair. However, if this isn't contrary to the intent of the rules then I'm not sure what the point of having a rule is then. The fact that they fist-bumped afterward (!) is about as egregious as it gets, I can't imagine what some fellow competitors will feel about that display.

 

I see this as pretty cut and dry. It was reasonable and prudent for Ariya to mark her ball and she was told explicitly by her competitor not to do so. Players need to stick up for themselves and the field by insisting on marking in these instances, as is their right per the rules.

[dropkicked]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

[SkiSchoolPro]

To me, it looked like the 2nd player was ready to play before the 1st would have marked. Calling her off was probably a combo of being ready and the ball not being in a position to hurt her. Yes, if it had been short of the hole on her line, she probably would have had her mark.

 

However, if the 1st ball was 20+ feet past the hole (on or off her line), my guess is that she would have done exactly the same- played without the 1st player marking. I agree there are some field protection issues, but what is the definition of a ball being in a position to help? While the chances of helping are extremely low in many cases, it seems to me that any ball even with or past the hole is in a position to help. If we require players to always mark, where do we draw the line?

[9400]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark. Marking would have taken about 10 seconds. From a pace of play standpoint Amy's turn would not have started until Ariya was out of the way so spare any discussion of worrying about a bad time (if they were on the clock to begin with). If Ariya had insisted on marking, Amy would not have been allowed to stop her but it was posed as a question and she was told to leave it. After the shot the two fist-bumped.

 

I'm not one to harp on players being friendly (I actually quite enjoy the camaraderie) but this actively effecting other competitors. As I mentioned previously, it was reasonable and prudent for that ball to be marked.

[dropkicked]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark. Marking would have taken about 10 seconds. From a pace of play standpoint Amy's turn would not have started until Ariya was out of the way so spare any discussion of worrying about a bad time (if they were on the clock to begin with). If Ariya had insisted on marking, Amy would not have been allowed to stop her but it was posed as a question and she was told to leave it. After the shot the two fist-bumped.

 

I'm not one to harp on players being friendly (I actually quite enjoy the camaraderie) but this actively effecting other competitors. As I mentioned previously, it was reasonable and prudent for that ball to be marked.

As mentioned above and IMO, she was ready to play and did not want to wait for her competitor to mark.

[HitEmTrue]

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark.

 

She only took a couple steps...so it was more like 25 yards.

 

The fist bump, and LPGA making that tweet to celebrate the backstop, followed by deleting it, isn't a great look. Nonetheless, with the wording of the rule, don't know where to draw the line. The other player did play quickly. Of course the video could have been edited.

 

And for what it's worth, if it really was an agreement to help by leaving the ball there, there would (should) be a penalty whether the ball struck it or not.

[SkiSchoolPro]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark. Marking would have taken about 10 seconds. From a pace of play standpoint Amy's turn would not have started until Ariya was out of the way so spare any discussion of worrying about a bad time (if they were on the clock to begin with). If Ariya had insisted on marking, Amy would not have been allowed to stop her but it was posed as a question and she was told to leave it. After the shot the two fist-bumped.

 

I'm not one to harp on players being friendly (I actually quite enjoy the camaraderie) but this actively effecting other competitors. As I mentioned previously, it was reasonable and prudent for that ball to be marked.

Do the rules only require balls to be marked if it was reasonable and prudent? I only watched the video once, but thought Ariya was more than 15 feet from her ball when called off. What if she was 15, 25, 35, etc. yards away? How would you write the rule?

 

I think the easiest solution is to leave it up to the next player to play whether the ball is marked...yes, this would help on occasion, but in the long run it should even out for the field.

[9400]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark. Marking would have taken about 10 seconds. From a pace of play standpoint Amy's turn would not have started until Ariya was out of the way so spare any discussion of worrying about a bad time (if they were on the clock to begin with). If Ariya had insisted on marking, Amy would not have been allowed to stop her but it was posed as a question and she was told to leave it. After the shot the two fist-bumped.

 

I'm not one to harp on players being friendly (I actually quite enjoy the camaraderie) but this actively effecting other competitors. As I mentioned previously, it was reasonable and prudent for that ball to be marked.

As mentioned above and IMO, she was ready to play and did not want to wait for her competitor to mark.

 

I suspect nothing either of us say will sway opinions, however I will say that with her level of experience she should reasonably assume her competitor will hit her shot and mark her ball. I suspect that if the ball was in a disadvantageous position she would have insisted Ariya mark her ball which is her right within the rules, just as Ariya has the right to insist on marking.

 

This all becomes null when players insist on marking their balls when they feel it may give their competitors an advantage. This is a benefit to themselves and the rest of the field and takes any other intent out of the equation. Sure luck is a part of golf, but this is so easily avoidable and I clearly find it maddening hahah.

[davep043]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

Ariya was walking to mark her ball, approximately 10-15 feet away from it, looked to Amy and was told not to mark. Marking would have taken about 10 seconds. From a pace of play standpoint Amy's turn would not have started until Ariya was out of the way so spare any discussion of worrying about a bad time (if they were on the clock to begin with). If Ariya had insisted on marking, Amy would not have been allowed to stop her but it was posed as a question and she was told to leave it. After the shot the two fist-bumped.

 

I'm not one to harp on players being friendly (I actually quite enjoy the camaraderie) but this actively effecting other competitors. As I mentioned previously, it was reasonable and prudent for that ball to be marked.

I have to agree with SkiSchoolPro, sometimes its tough to anticipate that a ball is really in position to help, but in this case the ball was CLEARLY in such a position. Ariya clearly should have insisted on marking her ball, and has the right under the rules to do just that. If she is not given the chance to lift her ball after she states her intention, the other player is penalized. If Ariya is doing what is RIGHT, if she avoids giving her playing partner potential advantage, she insists on marking and lifting.

[bladehunter]

It was simply too close to the hole to leave. 10 feet out who cares ? A foot and a half from the cup. Should be automatic penalty for not marking. It’s in the way whether it helps or hurts

[davep043]

I'm rethinking my previous post, all of 90 seconds later. I was right, in that Ariya owed it to the rest of the field to insist on marking and lifting her ball. On the other hand, the second player, if she has a shred of integrity, should also share the burden. She had to know that the ball was in position to help her, she had to know that most other players in that same spot didn't have the same potential advantage. She SHOULD have insisted that Ariya mark her ball, instead of going ahead and playing. She willingly accepted an advantage over the rest of the field.

[bladehunter]

Yep Dave. I see it that way too. Ariya has to put her foot down . Lpga is a little too friendly for competition purposes a lot of the time.

[HitEmTrue]

I'm rethinking my previous post, all of 90 seconds later. I was right, in that Ariya owed it to the rest of the field to insist on marking and lifting her ball. On the other hand, the second player, if she has a shred of integrity, should also share the burden. She had to know that the ball was in position to help her, she had to know that most other players in that same spot didn't have the same potential advantage. She SHOULD have insisted that Ariya mark her ball, instead of going ahead and playing. She willingly accepted an advantage over the rest of the field.

 

I agree.

 

But how would you write the rule differently? Should there be a maximum distance from the hole where the ball must be marked? What if player A knocks it stiff from 150 yards, and player B is about to play from 145?

 

It's a "know it when you see it" scenario, but the rule can't be written that way. I wish a ref would step in and say "mark that ball please."

[FairwaysToHeaven]

This LPGA, backstop thing is such a non issue.. If she was accurate enough to purposely hit that ball, she could have sunk the chip.. She got lucky.. Luck isn't cheating.

 

What...? By calling Ariya off from marking her ball she gained an advantage of having an additional object which her ball could hit. In this case the ball was in an extremely advantageous position about 3-feet away from her target. This is about protecting the entire field which does not have this same advantage.

 

She deliberately called off her competitor and gained an advantage, the rule may not be clear enough but this is certainly against the intent of the rules of golf as they currently stand.

It could have quite possibly been a pace of play issue.. Maybe she was ready to hit her shot and didn't want to wait. Who knows.. but it's something entirely else to say that another golfer(s) has actually cheated to gain an advantage over the competition and their playing partners. I wouldn't go so far as to imply that without proof.

She got lucky.. but that's my opinion... Unless of course you have actual proof that they conspired to cheat.

 

if after watching this video you aren't convinced of intent or feel there isn't proof, i don't think this rule should even exist. there will never be a situation that proves intent if this video is not that.

[HitEmTrue]

if after watching this video you aren't convinced of intent or feel there isn't proof, i don't think this rule should even exist. there will never be a situation that proves intent if this video is not that.

 

Short of someone saying, "please leave that ball there to help my chances," I agree!

[davep043]

I'm rethinking my previous post, all of 90 seconds later. I was right, in that Ariya owed it to the rest of the field to insist on marking and lifting her ball. On the other hand, the second player, if she has a shred of integrity, should also share the burden. She had to know that the ball was in position to help her, she had to know that most other players in that same spot didn't have the same potential advantage. She SHOULD have insisted that Ariya mark her ball, instead of going ahead and playing. She willingly accepted an advantage over the rest of the field.

 

I agree.

 

But how would you write the rule differently? Should there be a maximum distance from the hole where the ball must be marked? What if player A knocks it stiff from 150 yards, and player B is about to play from 145?

 

It's a "know it when you see it" scenario, but the rule can't be written that way. I wish a ref would step in and say "mark that ball please."

 

I know under the old rules an official was specifically authorized to make such a directive, I'm not so sure now. I don't have a good answer to how this part of the rule could be changed to tighten up "in a position to help another player". I bet if we look back in this thread, we'd find a similar discussion, when should the players start to be concerned, either the player whose ball is in that position or the player waiting to hit. It would be so much simpler if all the players actually had the integrity to do the right thing.

[Shilgy]

Yep Dave. I see it that way too. Ariya has to put her foot down . Lpga is a little too friendly for competition purposes a lot of the time.

You do realize this thread started with the same behavior on the PGA Tour? It is not just the women.

[Shilgy]

i didn't want to start a new thread about the lpga incident, but this was blatant cheating.... and it seems the lpga encourages it. they've since deleted the tweet...but this was straight from their twitter account. others have posted the screenshot.

 

@LPGA - "Sometimes you need a little help from your friends! @amyolson shows @jutanugarn some lover after using her ball as a backboard on her chip! "

Was it really cheating? With the current wording of the rules, do we KNOW why they agreed to leave the ball there? If they say its for pace of play, do the rules officials on site call them liars and penalize them anyway?

Similar to the new rule on music? If they say they just enjoy it it is okay. If they admit that it relaxes them and it helps block out distractions it is a penalty. Well gee whiz, I guess they just enjoy it then! :(

[davep043]

i didn't want to start a new thread about the lpga incident, but this was blatant cheating.... and it seems the lpga encourages it. they've since deleted the tweet...but this was straight from their twitter account. others have posted the screenshot.

 

@LPGA - "Sometimes you need a little help from your friends! @amyolson shows @jutanugarn some lover after using her ball as a backboard on her chip! "

Was it really cheating? With the current wording of the rules, do we KNOW why they agreed to leave the ball there? If they say its for pace of play, do the rules officials on site call them liars and penalize them anyway?

Similar to the new rule on music? If they say they just enjoy it it is okay. If they admit that it relaxes them and it helps block out distractions it is a penalty. Well gee whiz, I guess they just enjoy it then! :(

Like I said in another post, I hope the RBs are watching this one, and consider whether a clarification is in order. They clearly seemed to communicate, and came to an agreement. What we can't tell for certain was the reason for the agreement, even if it looks pretty clear from our armchairs.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

i think this is why when so many of us ask to simplify the rules (myself included), that it becomes so incredibly hard to simplify rules while at the same time not wording a rule in a way that is too vague which could then create more opportunity to be viewed as cheating.

 

if we eliminated the drop within two club lengths in hopes of eliminating the time it takes to mark and measure two clubs from the penalty area, and moved towards simply asking the player to drop near the point of entry, there would no doubt be players attempt to take advantage of the vagueness of 'near' and drop 8 yards from the hazard in the fairway.

 

the end result may simply be that the rule states no players can mark their ball until all players are on the green unless the player hitting their approach specifically requests someone to mark.

[davep043]

i think this is why when so many of us ask to simplify the rules (myself included), that it becomes so incredibly hard to simplify rules while at the same time not wording a rule in a way that is too vague which could then create more opportunity to be viewed as cheating.

 

if we eliminated the drop within two club lengths in hopes of eliminating the time it takes to mark and measure two clubs from the penalty area, and moved towards simply asking the player to drop near the point of entry, there would no doubt be players attempt to take advantage of the vagueness of 'near' and drop 8 yards from the hazard in the fairway.

 

the end result may simply be that the rule states no players can mark their ball until all players are on the green unless the player hitting their approach specifically requests someone to mark.

Probably just as likely (and by that I mean its never happening) they could REQUIRE that a ball on the green be marked whenever another player was hitting a shot from within 20 yards (or pick another distance). Or if the tours get tired of being embarrassed, put an official with each group, with specific authority to require that a ball be marked. He could also operate the stopwatch for slow-play enforcement.

But based on the Jimmy Walker interview (remember him, in the title of the thread), the players don't look at backstopping as a problem, or even as a real violation of the rules.

[imakaveli]

the hard thing would be finding an objective rule...

[davep043]

the hard thing would be finding an objective rule...

Like dropping from knee height? :cheesy:

[imakaveli]

the hard thing would be finding an objective rule...

Like dropping from knee height? :cheesy:

 

boy is that an epic fail rule...

[SkiSchoolPro]

Given the subjectivity problem, why not just do away with the rule altogether? Most people aren't able to take advantage of a back-stop very often and the top players don't see it as a problem, so why not just level the field by leaving it up to the player hitting the ball from off the green whether to have a ball on the green marked? Wouldn't that simplify things while leveling the playing field for everyone (with the exception of when competitors play in different sized groups).

[HitEmTrue]

the hard thing would be finding an objective rule...

Like dropping from knee height? :cheesy:

 

boy is that an epic fail rule...

 

If folks keep doing what Rickie did, it would be an epic failure to follow a rule. But that won’t happen, just like players aren’t still accidentally dropping it over their shoulders.

 

[davep043]

Given the subjectivity problem, why not just do away with the rule altogether? Most people aren't able to take advantage of a back-stop very often and the top players don't see it as a problem, so why not just level the field by leaving it up to the player hitting the ball from off the green whether to have a ball on the green marked? Wouldn't that simplify things while leveling the playing field for everyone (with the exception of when competitors play in different sized groups).

I guess it gets down to creating a level playing field. If I play with a buddy, and he always leaves his ball there, maybe I save a stroke. If you're playing with a stranger, and he marks everything, you have no chance of getting that lucky bounce. Maybe I win, you finish second, and the difference is that one stroke. Not fair to you.

The rule is fine, its the Tour players who don't understand its purpose. I wonder how Ariya would feel if this stroke saved by Amy means that her big sister misses the cut. I wonder how the players who will take home less money feel about it? Amy saved a stroke because Ariya helped her. Its not a team game, a player shouldn't be helping another player.