Advice or General Knowledge?

[nsxguy]

"Many of us hook a driver down around the corner." A little less clear BUT, taken literally, your partner was not "suggesting" anything, he was merely telling them what he and other club members do. Not public information per se but also not counseling nor suggesting that's what they should do.

 

Don't assume everything has to be taken literally. The 'counseling' or 'suggestion' doesn't have to be explicit, it can be implied as is the case in that example.

 

So now we're going to have to devine intent then. Good luck with that.

 

 

 

before rangefinders, my not being able to tell someone they're 157 from the middle but instead had to stand on or point out the 150 yard marker to them and let them figure out they were 157; the former a penalty for giving advice, the latter giving them public information.

 

What gave you the idea that would have been advice? distance is information, the source (or even accuracy) doesn't matter as long as you don't include any 'adjustments' for things like wind or elevation.

 

Distance doesn't matter NOW; it did then. Giving that "advice" on the 157 yards used to be a penalty.

[nsxguy]

even I recognize that there are more important things in life than the Rules of Golf. Not many, but still . . .

 

[Sawgrass]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

 

I wish, and in fact have made an appeal to a high-ranked member of the USGA, that they'd simply do away with the whole prohibition against asking for or offering advice. IMO the Rule is intentionally vaguely worded and "under-Decisioned" so sanity can prevail -- but I really don't think I'd be disappointed if people were allowed to ask for or offer advice and we could simply forget all the nuance.

 

By "sanity" you mean "common sense". Good to have you onboard!

Why do purveyors of "common sense" always seem to be looking for company? Not so common after all?

[nbg352]

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

[LeoLeo99]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

 

I wish, and in fact have made an appeal to a high-ranked member of the USGA, that they'd simply do away with the whole prohibition against asking for or offering advice. IMO the Rule is intentionally vaguely worded and "under-Decisioned" so sanity can prevail -- but I really don't think I'd be disappointed if people were allowed to ask for or offer advice and we could simply forget all the nuance.

 

By "sanity" you mean "common sense". Good to have you onboard!

Why do purveyors of "common sense" always seem to be looking for company? Not so common after all?

 

Some old French guy observed that hundreds of years ago.

[nsxguy]

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

Agreed.

 

Frankly, if someone's my partner I'm allowed to give him (or her) advice.

 

Otherwise the person is my opponent.

 

And if he's my opponent and takes my advice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it serves him right. :D

[SNIPERBBB]

Yep. If you are any kind of true competitor at all your not going to trust what your opponent or fc says. Of course this can lead to some serious gamesmanship which can go against the gentleman aspect of the game so that may be why the advice rule should stay.

[marmooskapaul]

My gosh!!! I'm going back to the golf style and fashion forum just to clear my mind of this mess!!!!! Ta Ta

[Stuart_G]

There are modified Rules for golfers with disabilites which include allowing a guide for a visually impaired one.

 

here is the link:

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-for-golfers-with-disabilities.html

[brentkosta]

Golf is the best sport in the world with the most stupid arbitrary rules.

[sui generis]

Golf is the best sport in the world with the most stupid arbitrary rules.

 

They're only "stupid (and) arbitrary" to those who cannot be bothered to learn them. :swoon:

[lchang]

Yep. If you are any kind of true competitor at all your not going to trust what your opponent or fc says. Of course this can lead to some serious gamesmanship which can go against the gentleman aspect of the game so that may be why the advice rule should stay.

 

My first reaction to removing the rule is that it could lead to nasty gamesmanship. But even with the rule, i can think of many kinds of gamesmanship that are not against the rules and only prohibited by sportsmanship and etiquette. So maybe this argument isn’t very strong after all??

[bigred90gt]

Interesting conversation but in all my years of golf I have NEVER seen anyone actually called out on giving advice and then being assesed a penalty.

 

I’ve personally never experienced it in a tournament.

 

If my regular group called penalties for it, someone would take a penalty on every hole, lol

[Sawgrass]

Interesting conversation but in all my years of golf I have NEVER seen anyone actually called out on giving advice and then being assesed a penalty.

 

I've personally never experienced it in a tournament.

 

If my regular group called penalties for it, someone would take a penalty on every hole, lol

Happened in our club two weeks ago. First round of a two-day stroke play tournament. Player A said to player B that player A didn't think player B was allowed to ask a fellow competitor how his putt just broke. Player B got angry, and instead of accepting the 2sp, he withdrew.

 

In my experience the likelihood of such a violation happening depends on how serious the player typically is in regard to the Rules -- not his skill level. Some people simply have bad habits in this regard, and they come back and bite them.

[Augster]

Never seen anyone called out?

 

We’re supposed to call infractions on ourselves. I’ve called advice penalties on myself at least twice I can think of.

[tatertot]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

 

This is a rabbit hole nobody wants to go down:

 

Me: You want a drink?

You: Are you saying it's humid?

Me: What?

You: So you're saying the ball is flying farther, huh? PENALTY!

 

If the wind blows our hats off behind us, I say "Looks like we're playing into the wind today!", and you say "Penalty!", I'm calling you a name and finding somebody new to play golf with.

[Augster]

“Looks like we’re playing into the wind today”. You should call the advice penalty on yourself and learn to keep comments like that to yourself or silent.

[tatertot]

“Looks like we’re playing into the wind today”. You should call the advice penalty on yourself and learn to keep comments like that to yourself or silent.

 

I take back what I said ... I wouldn't play with you after talking with you for 2 minutes in the first tee.

[Augster]

“Looks like we’re playing into the wind today”. You should call the advice penalty on yourself and learn to keep comments like that to yourself or silent.

 

I take back what I said ... I wouldn't play with you after talking with you for 2 minutes in the first tee.

 

You’d WD in a tourney? One less guy to beat.

[tatertot]

“Looks like we’re playing into the wind today”. You should call the advice penalty on yourself and learn to keep comments like that to yourself or silent.

 

I take back what I said ... I wouldn't play with you after talking with you for 2 minutes in the first tee.

 

You’d WD in a tourney? One less guy to beat.

 

It would be worth it to avoid spending 4 hours with you.

[Shipwreck]

I like turtles

[bigred90gt]

"Looks like we're playing into the wind today". You should call the advice penalty on yourself and learn to keep comments like that to yourself or silent.

 

I've never seen a golf course with all 18 holes in a single file straight line. Would be a bit strange, and a loooooooooong treck back to the clubhouse when finished.

 

In my opinion, that wouldnt be advice, that would just be a stupid comment.

[nsxguy]

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

Agreed.

 

Frankly, if someone's my partner I'm allowed to give him (or her) advice.

 

Otherwise the person is my opponent.

 

And if he's my opponent and takes my advice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it serves him right. :D

 

Thank you guys for proving our point. :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

[brentkosta]

Golf is the best sport in the world with the most stupid arbitrary rules.

 

They're only "stupid (and) arbitrary" to those who cannot be bothered to learn them. :swoon:

 

These rules are often changed, proving that they are, in fact, stupid and arbitrary. Thanks for the great reply tho. Really made me think.

[sui generis]

Golf is the best sport in the world with the most stupid arbitrary rules.

 

They're only "stupid (and) arbitrary" to those who cannot be bothered to learn them. :swoon:

 

These rules are often changed, proving that they are, in fact, stupid and arbitrary. Thanks for the great reply tho. Really made me think.

 

That's clear. :swoon:

[2bGood]

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

I think this opens up all kinds of issues in Medal Play, as now two friends can share information and gain an unfair advantage.

 

 

 

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

Golf is a funny game as it the only sport I can think if where intent matters in the rules.

[Sawgrass]

 

 

These rules are often changed, proving that they are, in fact, stupid and arbitrary.

 

Change does not "prove" either stupidity nor arbitraryness. In fact, refusal to change might imply stupidity.

[SkiSchoolPro]

I know distance between 2 points is considered public information, but what about elevation change. I.e. can you say that the middle of the green is 150 yards away and 12 feet higher from where I am standing (on the 150 yard marker)?

[Newby]

If that information was known and/or publicly available before the start of the round and hasn't been determined by use of a device during play, then I see no problem

[Colin L]

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

I think this opens up all kinds of issues in Medal Play, as now two friends can share information and gain an unfair advantage.

 

 

 

Get rid of the rule altogether. Whether or not something said is considered advice, determining the difference can sometimes be subjective. And that is what is wrong with the rules. Subjectivity. Rules are meant to be definitive and absolute. There should be no room for subjectivity or interpretation. If a rule cannot be absolute then it should be discarded in favour of a rule worded so that it can be.

 

Golf is a funny game as it the only sport I can think if where intent matters in the rules.

 

 

Hand ball in soccer?