2019 Rules - YELLOW Penalty Areas

[nsxguy]

Here we go again only THIS time the official's giving Vijay a drop without going back BEHIND the yellow PA.

 

All the Rulies are right and the official KNOWS the Rule !!!

 

Way to go GUYS !!! :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

I wanted to ask about that drop. I told my wife I thought it was an illegal drop. Obviously, the official knows the rules better than me. Why was VJ allowed a drop in front of the yellow line? I thought you could only do that for red stakes.

 

Read the first post on the thread,,,,,,,,,,

 

Thanks. Was that drop only allowed because the ball cleared the yellow line and then rolled back in to the penalty area?

 

Yes. Before this year he would have had to drop and hit over the water again.

 

Until the clarification is issued (this was apparently an oversight by the USGA/R&A) this drop is legal. Once the clarification is published it will no longer be.

[DaveLeeNC]

I only saw one brief view of the situation from behind where Vijay's ball last crossed the yellow line (looking toward the pin), but it looked to me that, given the lines of the penalty area, Vijay might well have had a drop on that side of the penalty area under the old rules. But I wasn't paying really close attention so maybe not. Did anyone else notice that?

 

dave

 

I pulled this off the PGATour website Shot-Tracker thing. I don't know how accurate the boundaries are, but I marked where I think that Vijay could have dropped under the old rules (the red X marked by the black arrow).

 

dave

 

ps. And this would mean that he would get a similar drop even after a clarification is issued.

 

 

[nsxguy]

I only saw one brief view of the situation from behind where Vijay's ball last crossed the yellow line (looking toward the pin), but it looked to me that, given the lines of the penalty area, Vijay might well have had a drop on that side of the penalty area under the old rules. But I wasn't paying really close attention so maybe not. Did anyone else notice that?

 

dave

 

I pulled this off the PGATour website Shot-Tracker thing. I don't know how accurate the boundaries are, but I marked where I think that Vijay could have dropped under the old rules (the red X marked by the black arrow).

 

dave

 

ps. And this would mean that he would get a similar drop even after a clarification is issued.

 

 

 

Based on that diagram I'd say you were correct.

[Sawgrass]

Old rule 26-1 required either S&D or to "drop a ball behind the water hazard keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped." There was no "relief area" with a sideways component. Just a line, a line which must cross the water or at the very least the precise edge of the hazard. Perhaps that would in fact have worked as the diagram shows. But certainly, the one club length wide relief area expands that potential.

 

I suspect maintaining the integrity of this past ideal is a challenge to describe given the new sideways component of the relief area, hence the ruling bodies failure to address it so far. Or perhaps the best of all worlds is to leave it as it is.

[Mr. Bean]

Old rule 26-1 required either S&D or to "drop a ball behind the water hazard keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped." There was no "relief area" with a sideways component. Just a line, a line which must cross the water or at the very least the precise edge of the hazard. Perhaps that would in fact have worked as the diagram shows. But certainly, the one club length wide relief area expands that potential.

 

I suspect maintaining the integrity of this past ideal is a challenge to describe given the new sideways component of the relief area, hence the ruling bodies failure to address it so far. Or perhaps the best of all worlds is to leave it as it is.

 

There are just too many yellow balls above the picture to know for sure but I think there is a small bay by the green. That qualifies as 'behind the water'.

[Sawgrass]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

[Augster]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Yep.

 

I was wondering if this would come up. Vijay still didn’t know what he was doing. At least the official knew EXACTLY what was happening. He was dropping back on the line. But this year you get a clublength at any point on that line.

[sui generis]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Yep.

 

I was wondering if this would come up. Vijay still didn't know what he was doing. At least the official knew EXACTLY what was happening. He was dropping back on the line. But this year you get a clublength at any point on that line.

 

A 2019 way of thinking about back-on-the-line is that it's really "back-in-a-lane-on-the-line" A two-driver width lane.

[Mr. Bean]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Yep.

 

I was wondering if this would come up. Vijay still didn't know what he was doing. At least the official knew EXACTLY what was happening. He was dropping back on the line. But this year you get a clublength at any point on that line.

 

A 2019 way of thinking about back-on-the-line is that it's really "back-in-a-lane-on-the-line" A two-driver width lane.

 

You could create a catching refrain from that!

 

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Would you care to post a link? Too lazy to search...

[davep043]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Yep.

 

I was wondering if this would come up. Vijay still didn't know what he was doing. At least the official knew EXACTLY what was happening. He was dropping back on the line. But this year you get a clublength at any point on that line.

 

A 2019 way of thinking about back-on-the-line is that it's really "back-in-a-lane-on-the-line" A two-driver width lane.

 

You could create a catching refrain from that!

 

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Would you care to post a link? Too lazy to search...

This was easy. Vijay established his Reference Point an inch or two beind the spot where the ball entered the hazard, the RP was inside the hazard. He had one clublength to either side (one side being pretty wet) and dropped it. Last year he'd have been 20 or 30 yards back, kind of towards the most forward tee in the diagram. If they choose to, I believe the USGA could revise the rule to say that the Reference Point cannot be in the same Penalty Area as where the ball ended up, and make the result pretty similar to the old rules.

[Sawgrass]

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Yep.

 

I was wondering if this would come up. Vijay still didn't know what he was doing. At least the official knew EXACTLY what was happening. He was dropping back on the line. But this year you get a clublength at any point on that line.

 

A 2019 way of thinking about back-on-the-line is that it's really "back-in-a-lane-on-the-line" A two-driver width lane.

 

You could create a catching refrain from that!

 

I just saw the video, in this case the drop location would not have been meaningfully different last year, just a touch further back. Nice up and down though.

 

Would you care to post a link? Too lazy to search...

Sorry, after reading the above posts I went and recorded a replay of the whole event, and fast-forwarded it to the 17th hole. Come on over and we'll watch!

[cxx]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

[sui generis]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

[Sawgrass]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

[Sawgrass]

Further to Sui's point, last year if a ball last crossed at a point where a line from the hole just grazed the yellow water hazard, you'd be technically dropping "behind" the WH though your next shot might not even have to travel over it (if you aimed at a section of the green a touch left). This year, you get an additional club length to play with. The only time this change would be meaningfully different is if back on the line isn't just a tangent to the PA, but way further back.

 

I still don't like that aspect of the new rule, but I could easily adjust if I only knew that is what's intended. My, and Mr. Bean's, contacts say that adjustments are being contemplated, or have been addressed, respectively. I am no longer sure about that.

[nsxguy]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

 

Wasn't it already established by someone here (Bean ?) that the ruling bodies missed this one and a clarification was forthcoming ?

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1725166-2019-rules-yellow-penalty-areas/page__st__240__p__18709252__hl__+clarification?do=findComment&comment=18709252

[cxx]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

 

Wasn't it already established by someone here (Bean ?) that the ruling bodies missed this one and a clarification was forthcoming ?

 

Might be too late. You can only afford so many "well that's what I meant" events.

[Stuart_G]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

 

Wasn't it already established by someone here (Bean ?) that the ruling bodies missed this one and a clarification was forthcoming ?

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...n#entry18709252

 

Not the same thing. In that link, they are referring to using a reference point inside the hazard being used to get a relief area outside the hazard to avoid the need to go back behind the hazard line.

[Mr. Bean]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

 

Wasn't it already established by someone here (Bean ?) that the ruling bodies missed this one and a clarification was forthcoming ?

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...n#entry18709252

 

That is the message our National Federation has received from R&A in January. Let us see what happens.

[antip]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

I think it is very clear that the capacity to drop on the green side under the formula was not intended: I evidence the following question from USGA Advanced Quiz

 

A serious breach of playing from a wrong place occurs when a player: (Ref# 673)

a. drops and plays a ball on the green side of a yellow penalty area (such as a lake, 75 yards across) when proceeding under Rule 17 for a ball that was played from the fairway, landed by the green and rolled back into the penalty area.

b. moves his ball-marker over one putter head length when asked to do so by another player and forgets to move it back before placing his ball and making a stroke.

c. places his ball when he should have dropped it.

d. cancels and replays a putt that was deflected by another player's caddie.

 

Answer given is a.

[sui generis]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

I think it is very clear that the capacity to drop on the green side under the formula was not intended: I evidence the following question from USGA Advanced Quiz

 

A serious breach of playing from a wrong place occurs when a player: (Ref# 673)

a. drops and plays a ball on the green side of a yellow penalty area (such as a lake, 75 yards across) when proceeding under Rule 17 for a ball that was played from the fairway, landed by the green and rolled back into the penalty area.

b. moves his ball-marker over one putter head length when asked to do so by another player and forgets to move it back before placing his ball and making a stroke.

c. places his ball when he should have dropped it.

d. cancels and replays a putt that was deflected by another player's caddie.

 

Answer given is a.

 

You might be right. However, my experience with the USGA Rules Committee suggests to me that they may have been prepared to forgo an old notion. Back-on-the-line may mean just that. On the other hand, you might be right. :)

[nsxguy]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

 

Wasn't it already established by someone here (Bean ?) that the ruling bodies missed this one and a clarification was forthcoming ?

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...n#entry18709252

 

Not the same thing. In that link, they are referring to using a reference point inside the hazard being used to get a relief area outside the hazard to avoid the need to go back behind the hazard line.

 

And that's exactly what happened. The ball landed outside (green side) of the yellow PA and rolled backwards into the yellow PA.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I was watching it live and IMO there's no way Vijay took back on the line relief. They appear to have used the point it last crossed and Vijay got relief to the side.

[LeoLeo99]

What if in this instance, VJ went back on a line about 3 inches and then 1 club length to the side. Would that be legal and align with what happened at the Honda?

[sui generis]

@nsx. Make sure you fully understand the 2019 back-on-the-line procedure, it's not the same as 2018 back-on-the-line. :)

[nsxguy]

@nsx. Make sure you fully understand the 2019 back-on-the-line procedure, it's not the same as 2018 back-on-the-line. :)

 

You're referring to the 2 clubs lengths "wide" of each reference point ? Yup, I know what you mean.

 

Guess you might call this drop of Vijay's either way. Guess I'd have to see it again.

[sui generis]

@nsx. Make sure you fully understand the 2019 back-on-the-line procedure, it's not the same as 2018 back-on-the-line. :)

 

You're referring to the 2 clubs lengths "wide" of each reference point ? Yup, I know what you mean.

 

Guess you might call this drop of Vijay's either way. Guess I'd have to see it again.

 

Neither of us were in a position to make a call . . . a referee with a badge and a radio oversaw the proceedings. :)

[Augster]

What if in this instance, VJ went back on a line about 3 inches and then 1 club length to the side. Would that be legal and align with what happened at the Honda?

 

That’s exactly what VJ did. Though it looked like he didn’t bother with the 3 inches.

 

It was back on line relief he took. There is a very minor “bay” that he’d have to carry. In 2018, going at the pin, he would have had to carry it.

 

Sunday, in 2019, he gets a CL on either side of that BOL line. One side would have been in the hazard, so that’s not an option. So he dropped on the legal side, within 1CL.

 

Because of the 1CL, he pretty much no longer had to carry that small “bay”.

[Mr. Bean]

If USGA really wanted to prevent this type of drop they would have worded the rule differently. I don't see how could they have missed this option during testing. At this point they should just live with it.

 

It may be that the Rule is operating just as they intended. It wouldn't surprise me. :)

That would certainly explain why they haven't changed it!

I think it is very clear that the capacity to drop on the green side under the formula was not intended: I evidence the following question from USGA Advanced Quiz

 

A serious breach of playing from a wrong place occurs when a player: (Ref# 673)

a. drops and plays a ball on the green side of a yellow penalty area (such as a lake, 75 yards across) when proceeding under Rule 17 for a ball that was played from the fairway, landed by the green and rolled back into the penalty area.

b. moves his ball-marker over one putter head length when asked to do so by another player and forgets to move it back before placing his ball and making a stroke.

c. places his ball when he should have dropped it.

d. cancels and replays a putt that was deflected by another player's caddie.

 

Answer given is a.

 

That proves nothing as we have no clue what the person having written the options has really meant. Did he mean that drop was closer to the hole than the Reference Point (= serious breach)? Or something else (and got it wrong)? We do not know so the value of evidence is pure zero.

[rogolf]

 

 

And that's exactly what happened. The ball landed outside (green side) of the yellow PA and rolled backwards into the yellow PA.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I was watching it live and IMO there's no way Vijay took back on the line relief. They appear to have used the point it last crossed and Vijay got relief to the side.

The referee clearly said to VJ "back-on-the-line relief". "Back" isn't defined, it can be minuscule.

[davep043]

And that's exactly what happened. The ball landed outside (green side) of the yellow PA and rolled backwards into the yellow PA.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I was watching it live and IMO there's no way Vijay took back on the line relief. They appear to have used the point it last crossed and Vijay got relief to the side.

The referee clearly said to VJ "back-on-the-line relief". "Back" isn't defined, it can be minuscule.

Exactly as I saw it. Given that the edge of the penalty area is the edge of the painted line on the golf course side, his reference point could be on the painted line and still be behind the point where the ball entered (touched the vertical extension of the edge of) the penalty area.