2019 Rules - YELLOW Penalty Areas

[Newby]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

That should not be a yellow PA to begin with.

 

Why not? It satisfies this requirement

 

When a penalty area is marked yellow, the Committee should ensure that a player will always be able to drop back-on-the-line

[Sawgrass]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

That should not be a yellow PA to begin with.

 

Why not? It satisfies this requirement

 

When a penalty area is marked yellow, the Committee should ensure that a player will always be able to drop back-on-the-line

Please, please let's not make the game any more easy to score in than it already is. I like to try to do things that are hard to do. (I'm not all that good at it, but I do very much like to try!)

[DaveLeeNC]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

What have I missed here? Holes where you have to carry a PA and there is a chance that the ball will carry and roll back in - pretty much every instance of this is an advantage to the red markings. Is the question here about the soon the be explicitly excluded drop option that Mr. Bean posted in post #162? I see this a good bit on the courses that I play.

 

dave

 

I'm stilll confused as welll if that helps ( I know it doesn't). I get the posts on yellow. But my post has to do with my course changing he yellows to red . And how that makes 2 holes much easier.

 

I think I got it now. There were actually two different discussions here - one regarding an interpretation of how to take a drop from a yellow PA and one regarding the impact of changes from yellow to red under the new rules (where in one case there was an assumption that this more lenient yellow PA drop interpretation was not going to stand. Or maybe there were 3 different discussions :-)

 

Thx.

 

dave

 

ps. I was most pleased to see the clarification reported by Mr. Bean. The alternative just seemed very 'wrong' to me (even if the ruling bodies allowed it).

[Mr. Bean]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

That should not be a yellow PA to begin with.

 

Why not? It satisfies this requirement

 

When a penalty area is marked yellow, the Committee should ensure that a player will always be able to drop back-on-the-line

 

I am sure it does but according to your diagram that is not an area a player needs to surpass by playing. On all the courses I have played that kind of PA (formerly WH) has been red. Always.

[Mr. Bean]

ps. I was most pleased to see the clarification reported by Mr. Bean. The alternative just seemed very 'wrong' to me (even if the ruling bodies allowed it).

 

They didn't, they just wrote it insufficiently in the book.

[rogolf]

 

 

No, what we already know is that you can always take BOL relief from ANY penalty area.

 

What was discussed quite thoroughly in the other thread "2019 Rules of Golf" and got this situation a thread of its own in the first place was dropping on the GREEN side of a YELLOW PA, just as shown in the picture in Post #1.

 

Imo, the discussion is about taking BOL relief from a yellow penalty area where the ball has landed beyond the yellow penalty area and then rolled back into that yellow penalty area. The Rules say to establish a reference point and then a relief area (one club-length). Rule 17 says that the relief area for BOL relief may be in any part of the course, but not in the same penalty area. The discussion has been about the odd situation where the reference point is established just behind where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area (on the green side) and a portion of the relief area (one club-length from the reference point) is outside the penalty area. And clarification on that is what I presume Mr. Bean said might be forthcoming.

In the meantime, there are other rabbit holes in this thread.

[nsxguy]

No, what we already know is that you can always take BOL relief from ANY penalty area.

 

What was discussed quite thoroughly in the other thread "2019 Rules of Golf" and got this situation a thread of its own in the first place was dropping on the GREEN side of a YELLOW PA, just as shown in the picture in Post #1.

 

Imo, the discussion is about taking BOL relief from a yellow penalty area where the ball has landed beyond the yellow penalty area and then rolled back into that yellow penalty area. The discussion has been about the odd situation where the reference point is established just behind where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area (on the green side) and a portion of the relief area (one club-length from the reference point) is outside the penalty area. And clarification on that is what I presume Mr. Bean said might be forthcoming.

 

THAT is correct. A number of people emailed the USGA and recently got a return email that it was being looked at but without final decision. That is what the thread is about and what Mr B's post 162 is clarifying.

 

The Rules say to establish a reference point and then a relief area (one club-length). Rule 17 says that the relief area for BOL relief may be in any part of the course, but not in the same penalty area.

 

Correct but that's not what it's about (not including side topics/thread drift)

 

In the meantime, there are other rabbit holes in this thread.

 

There always are. ;)

[rogolf]

No, what we already know is that you can always take BOL relief from ANY penalty area.

 

What was discussed quite thoroughly in the other thread "2019 Rules of Golf" and got this situation a thread of its own in the first place was dropping on the GREEN side of a YELLOW PA, just as shown in the picture in Post #1.

 

Imo, the discussion is about taking BOL relief from a yellow penalty area where the ball has landed beyond the yellow penalty area and then rolled back into that yellow penalty area. The discussion has been about the odd situation where the reference point is established just behind where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area (on the green side) and a portion of the relief area (one club-length from the reference point) is outside the penalty area. And clarification on that is what I presume Mr. Bean said might be forthcoming.

 

THAT is correct. A number of people emailed the USGA and recently got a return email that it was being looked at but without final decision. That is what the thread is about and what Mr B's post 162 is clarifying.

 

The Rules say to establish a reference point and then a relief area (one club-length). Rule 17 says that the relief area for BOL relief may be in any part of the course, but not in the same penalty area.

 

Correct but that's not what it's about (not including side topics/thread drift)

 

In the meantime, there are other rabbit holes in this thread.

 

There always are. ;)

 

You've confused me - saying the second part of your message is correct but not what we're talking about? It's all part of the same issue imo.

[Newby]

 

I am sure it does but according to your diagram that is not an area a player needs to surpass by playing.

 

It was a hastily drawn diagram. In reality the pond is an irregular shape and the left side extends further left, normally requiring the player to play over at least part of it.

[nsxguy]

Imo, the discussion is about taking BOL relief from a yellow penalty area where the ball has landed beyond the yellow penalty area and then rolled back into that yellow penalty area. The discussion has been about the odd situation where the reference point is established just behind where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area (on the green side) and a portion of the relief area (one club-length from the reference point) is outside the penalty area. And clarification on that is what I presume Mr. Bean said might be forthcoming.

 

THAT is correct. A number of people emailed the USGA and recently got a return email that it was being looked at but without final decision. That is what the thread is about and what Mr B's post 162 is clarifying.

 

The Rules say to establish a reference point and then a relief area (one club-length). Rule 17 says that the relief area for BOL relief may be in any part of the course, but not in the same penalty area.

 

Correct but that's not what it's about (not including side topics/thread drift)

 

In the meantime, there are other rabbit holes in this thread.

 

There always are. ;)

 

You've confused me - saying the second part of your message is correct but not what we're talking about? It's all part of the same issue imo.

 

Sorry. Let me try to be clearer. You said "The Rules say to establish a reference point and then a relief area (one club-length). Rule 17 says that the relief area for BOL relief may be in any part of the course, but not in the same penalty area"

 

You are describing BOL relief. BOL relief is not the issue. So I said that was correct but the thread/issue isn't about that nor is Mr Bean's post 162.

 

There is no confusion as to BOL relief in this (or any) case that I can recall. It is well understood.

 

If you look at the mock up in the first post you will see THE issue is about relief on the green side of a yellow penalty area when the ball landed outside of the yellow PAA and went backwards into the yellow PA

 

There was agreement that the rules, as currently written DOES allow for that relief.

 

There was also skepticism about whether or not that was actually the intent of the new rule(s). Mr Bean's posty 162 suggests that the rule, as it stands, IS in error and therefore there will be a clarification on that rule that will force the player to take S&D OR BOL relief.

 

i.e. he will need to go over that same hazard again, just as he had to do under the older rules.

[rogolf]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

[DaveLeeNC]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

I disagree here. I believe that it will happen most of the time for the case of a ball rolling back into a yellow PA from the green side.

 

Take the case of the hazard line being straight within one CL of where the ball rolled back into the PA. Set your reference point 1/16 inch behind where the ball last crossed the PA. In every case (for a straight hazard boundary near where the ball last crossed) there will be a relief area (as the rules currently define it) not nearer the hole and outside the PA boundary on the green side. This is true even when the hazard line is perpendicular to the BOL line.

 

dave

 

ps. This won't always be the case when you are more than around 300 yards from the pin.

[nsxguy]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

Now you're changing your mind ? It was you who first said it was OK and then everybody agreed with you. http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1720948-2019-rules-of-golf/page__st__120__p__18379174?do=findComment&comment=18379174

 

You yourself pointed out (first ?) that this situation could occur and gave the very example I mocked up in the picture in the first post and said that was a good spot to drop; on the green side of the yellow PA.

 

After that, all the others agreed that by the wording of the rules it could be dropped on the green side of the hazard.

 

Sawgrass later pointed out that there were conversations being held on this very subject.

 

fairways posted an email he got back from the USGA, at least 3 weeks after sending it, asking about this very subject. The email basically said they were looking into it.

 

Now Mr Bean says there will be a clarification issued stating (roughly) one can NOT drop on the green side of the YELLOW PA.

 

That's all I got.

[Sawgrass]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

Now you're changing your mind ? It was you who first said it was OK and then everybody agreed with you. http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1720948-2019-rules-of-golf/page__st__120__p__18379174?do=findComment&comment=18379174

 

You yourself pointed out (first ?) that this situation could occur and gave the very example I mocked up in the picture in the first post and said that was a good spot to drop; on the green side of the yellow PA.

 

After that, all the others agreed that by the wording of the rules it could be dropped on the green side of the hazard.

 

Sawgrass later pointed out that there were conversations being held on this very subject.

 

fairways posted an email he got back from the USGA, at least 3 weeks after sending it, asking about this very subject. The email basically said they were looking into it.

 

Now Mr Bean says there will be a clarification issued stating (roughly) one can NOT drop on the green side of the YELLOW PA.

 

That's all I got.

Rogolf has (consistently, I believe) chosen to avoid calling a ball dropped within one club-length to the side of a BOTL reference point a “lateral” drop. He seems to reserve that word to describe the additional two club-length to the side option a red penalty area permits.

 

Okay, I’m finished speaking for Rogolf.

[rogolf]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

Now you're changing your mind ? It was you who first said it was OK and then everybody agreed with you. http://www.golfwrx.c...4#entry18379174

 

You yourself pointed out (first ?) that this situation could occur and gave the very example I mocked up in the picture in the first post and said that was a good spot to drop; on the green side of the yellow PA.

 

After that, all the others agreed that by the wording of the rules it could be dropped on the green side of the hazard.

 

Sawgrass later pointed out that there were conversations being held on this very subject.

 

fairways posted an email he got back from the USGA, at least 3 weeks after sending it, asking about this very subject. The email basically said they were looking into it.

 

Now Mr Bean says there will be a clarification issued stating (roughly) one can NOT drop on the green side of the YELLOW PA.

 

That's all I got.

Rogolf has (consistently, I believe) chosen to avoid calling a ball dropped within one club-length to the side of a BOTL reference point a "lateral" drop. He seems to reserve that word to describe the additional two club-length to the side option a red penalty area permits.

 

Okay, I'm finished speaking for Rogolf.

But Sawgrass, you've done very well on my behalf. There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

[antip]

There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

Couldn't agree more. If contributors to a Rules discussion use terms defined under the Rules in a way that is not consistent with that definition we will be spinning our wheels endlessly.

[Sawgrass]

There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

Couldn't agree more. If contributors to a Rules discussion use terms defined under the Rules in a way that is not consistent with that definition we will be spinning our wheels endlessly.

And (or "but"?) we all need to be open to seeing and reacting to how normal English language definitions and usage might confuse things for those less steeped in rules language.

 

The truth needs to come out, visible to all!

[DaveLeeNC]

I am curious about something here. If (for example) a player on the PGA Tour during a PGA Tournament were to try to apply Rule 17 as currently written for the case of a ball falling back into the PA where a greenside relief area appears to be available, how would a RO rule on this - both if asked real time and if reviewed after the round?

 

Thx.

 

dave

[Augster]

I am curious about something here. If (for example) a player on the PGA Tour during a PGA Tournament were to try to apply Rule 17 as currently written for the case of a ball falling back into the PA where a greenside relief area appears to be available, how would a RO rule on this - both if asked real time and if reviewed after the round?

 

Thx.

 

dave

 

My guess is he’d rule incorrectly and not allow the drop as you “always” have to drop “behind” a yellow PA. And common sense says the reference point can’t be in the same PA your ball is in.

 

Unfortunately, that’s not how the rule is written.

 

Unless Rules workshops leading up to reffing this year specifically cover that you CAN get this type of relief, I doubt they’d know. Or even think they got it wrong.

 

Just a guess though.

[Sawgrass]

I am curious about something here. If (for example) a player on the PGA Tour during a PGA Tournament were to try to apply Rule 17 as currently written for the case of a ball falling back into the PA where a greenside relief area appears to be available, how would a RO rule on this - both if asked real time and if reviewed after the round?

 

Thx.

 

dave

I would hope that such a drop would be allowed, both during play and after later review (of course if a ref sanctioned it, it would be allowed after later review in any case).

 

But I anxiously await the specific wording from the RBs on this. If Mr. Bean's stated upcoming announcement about this is truly a "clarification," then this action should not have been allowed. If it's a change instead of a clarification (my opinion is "change") then it should have been allowed and should no longer be allowed.

[Shilgy]

There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

Couldn't agree more. If contributors to a Rules discussion use terms defined under the Rules in a way that is not consistent with that definition we will be spinning our wheels endlessly.

And (or "but"?) we all need to be open to seeing and reacting to how normal English language definitions and usage might confuse things for those less steeped in rules language.

 

The truth needs to come out, visible to all!

Not to threadjack but I agree wholeheartedly with this. I have commented before how the new rules are written better for the everyday avid golfer. Less legalese if you will. But as our discussions have pointed out even now there are instances where the intent seems to be clear to those of you steeped in the rules but for the layman we can only go by what is actually written and the normal interpretation of such.

[cxx]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

What have I missed here? Holes where you have to carry a PA and there is a chance that the ball will carry and roll back in - pretty much every instance of this is an advantage to the red markings. Is the question here about the soon the be explicitly excluded drop option that Mr. Bean posted in post #162? I see this a good bit on the courses that I play.

 

dave

 

The way the yellow PA rule is written, there will always be relief on the green side PA border when the ball crosses in from that side. The point where the ball crossed into the PA will always be "no closer to the hole".

[DaveLeeNC]

There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

Couldn't agree more. If contributors to a Rules discussion use terms defined under the Rules in a way that is not consistent with that definition we will be spinning our wheels endlessly.

And (or "but"?) we all need to be open to seeing and reacting to how normal English language definitions and usage might confuse things for those less steeped in rules language.

 

The truth needs to come out, visible to all!

Not to threadjack but I agree wholeheartedly with this. I have commented before how the new rules are written better for the everyday avid golfer. Less legalese if you will. But as our discussions have pointed out even now there are instances where the intent seems to be clear to those of you steeped in the rules but for the layman we can only go by what is actually written and the normal interpretation of such.

 

One other thing that would be helpful to newcomers (who should be encouraged to participate) is a "sticky" thread with acronyms that will not be familiar to newcomers. A few that come to mind

• RO - Rules Official
  
• PA - Penalty Area
  
• BOL - Back of Line
  
• CL - Club Length
  
• BOTL - Back of The Line (I think)
  
• S&D - Stroke and Distance
  

And I am sure there are many more that won't be obvious to someone 'off the street'.

 

Is there a way to do that where a typical thread will just drift down into obscurity.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

We have two PAs that we will keep as yellow. The lateral relief available for red is far too generous in these particular cases. This was decided by members not the committee.

Any pictures of those holes? I have a hard time to picture a hole where red stakes with no opposite edge option would give any benefit compared to current yellow PA reference point definition.

I haven't got a photo but here is a rough idea

 

What have I missed here? Holes where you have to carry a PA and there is a chance that the ball will carry and roll back in - pretty much every instance of this is an advantage to the red markings. Is the question here about the soon the be explicitly excluded drop option that Mr. Bean posted in post #162? I see this a good bit on the courses that I play.

 

dave

 

The way the yellow PA rule is written, there will always be relief on the green side PA border when the ball crosses in from that side. The point where the ball crossed into the PA will always be "no closer to the hole".

 

See post #192 in this thread.

 

I have always assumed that 'the point at which it crossed the PA" is in the PA. I don't see how a point that defines where it crossed can be anywhere else, but this is the Rules of Golf so ....

 

But other than some unusual shapes there will still, in most cases, be relief on the green side available (until the ruling bodies issue what ever kind of change/clarification is coming). Again see post #192.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

[

 

IMO, It is only in very special cases that the Rules, as written, could result in relief on the green side of the yellow penalty area. The circumstances for that relief are that:

- the ball crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it from the green side

- the yellow penalty area is so situated that when the reference point for BOL relief is established as immediately behind the point where the ball crossed the edge of the yellow penalty area, there is part of the relief area (within one club-length from the reference point) that is outside the yellow penalty area. Of course, no nearer the hole applies.

In this special case, the player could drop in that portion of the relief area that is outside the yellow penalty area.

 

Note that they are special cases depending on the shape of the yellow penalty area and hole location. It will not happen every time.

 

Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

Now you're changing your mind ? It was you who first said it was OK and then everybody agreed with you. http://www.golfwrx.c...4#entry18379174

 

You yourself pointed out (first ?) that this situation could occur and gave the very example I mocked up in the picture in the first post and said that was a good spot to drop; on the green side of the yellow PA.

 

After that, all the others agreed that by the wording of the rules it could be dropped on the green side of the hazard.

 

Sawgrass later pointed out that there were conversations being held on this very subject.

 

fairways posted an email he got back from the USGA, at least 3 weeks after sending it, asking about this very subject. The email basically said they were looking into it.

 

Now Mr Bean says there will be a clarification issued stating (roughly) one can NOT drop on the green side of the YELLOW PA.

 

That's all I got.

Rogolf has (consistently, I believe) chosen to avoid calling a ball dropped within one club-length to the side of a BOTL reference point a "lateral" drop. He seems to reserve that word to describe the additional two club-length to the side option a red penalty area permits.

 

Okay, I'm finished speaking for Rogolf.

But Sawgrass, you've done very well on my behalf. There is no lateral relief for a yellow penalty area, but BOL relief could result in something that might appear similar, but is not the same.

I've said before, two things not the same are different; same applies here.

 

First of all I can find nothing in the "Definitions" that defines the term "lateral relief". If you can, please point it out. TIA

 

Therefore the words must be taken literally as in "relief to the SIDE". Further, I didn't see anything that says "no lateral relief from a yellow PA" as you are suggesting/opining. I DO see, in 17.1d(3) "(3) Lateral Relief (Only for Red Penalty Area)" so I can only deduce you're hanging your hat on that ONE LINE.

 

The picture in Post 1 of this thread shows lateral relief or, if you prefer, relief to the side, from a Yellow PA that "everybody" here has agreed IS permitted by the Rules as written.

 

I previously provided a link where you said "Think of no. 12 at Augusta, marked yellow. If the ball last crosses the edge of the penalty area on the green side and the reference point can be immediately behind that point (on the back-on-the-line), there could well be some of the one club-length relief area outside the penalty area and the player could drop on the green side of the penalty area."

 

In a more recent post of yours (above) you said "Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area."

 

So which is it ? As the Rules stand now, i.e. BEFORE the clarification/change posted by Mr Bean in Post 162, do you disagree with the permissible drop in the very first post ? Or not ?

 

Thanks

[Mr. Bean]

I am curious about something here. If (for example) a player on the PGA Tour during a PGA Tournament were to try to apply Rule 17 as currently written for the case of a ball falling back into the PA where a greenside relief area appears to be available, how would a RO rule on this - both if asked real time and if reviewed after the round?

 

Thx.

 

dave

 

My guess is he'd rule incorrectly and not allow the drop as you "always" have to drop "behind" a yellow PA. And common sense says the reference point can't be in the same PA your ball is in.

 

 

As I have been informed in Ladies European Tour the referees have ruled according to the Rules of Golf instead of what they 'think' the Rule should be. I believe that is a common practice amongst referees...

[Mr. Bean]

The way the yellow PA rule is written, there will always be relief on the green side PA border when the ball crosses in from that side. The point where the ball crossed into the PA will always be "no closer to the hole".

 

No, you are in the wrong, my friend. But fortunately it does not matter for long.

[Mr. Bean]

First of all I can find nothing in the "Definitions" that defines the term "lateral relief". If you can, please point it out. TIA

 

 

Maybe you should read Rule 17 instead of Definitions.

[rogolf]

First of all I can find nothing in the "Definitions" that defines the term "lateral relief". If you can, please point it out. TIA

 

Therefore the words must be taken literally as in "relief to the SIDE". Further, I didn't see anything that says "no lateral relief from a yellow PA" as you are suggesting/opining. I DO see, in 17.1d(3) "(3) Lateral Relief (Only for Red Penalty Area)" so I can only deduce you're hanging your hat on that ONE LINE. Yes, that line is very clear!

 

The picture in Post 1 of this thread shows lateral relief or, if you prefer, relief to the side, from a Yellow PA that "everybody" here has agreed IS permitted by the Rules as written.

 

I previously provided a link where you said "Think of no. 12 at Augusta, marked yellow. If the ball last crosses the edge of the penalty area on the green side and the reference point can be immediately behind that point (on the back-on-the-line), there could well be some of the one club-length relief area outside the penalty area and the player could drop on the green side of the penalty area."

 

In a more recent post of yours (above) you said "Imo, the Rules do not permit lateral relief for a yellow penalty area regardless of where the ball crossed the edge of the penalty area."

 

So which is it ? As the Rules stand now, i.e. BEFORE the clarification/change posted by Mr Bean in Post 162, do you disagree with the permissible drop in the very first post ? Or not ?

 

Thanks

 

Rule 17.1d is very clear that there are only two relief procedures permitted for yellow penalty areas - stroke and distance and back-on-the-line.

Rule 17.1d(3) is very clear that "lateral relief" is only applicable to a red penalty area. "Lateral relief" is not part of BOL relief (Rule 17.1d(2).

 

I think that I've been very consistent in saying that BOL relief may result in the possibility of dropping on the green side of a yellow penalty area when the ball has crossed the yellow penalty area and rolled back into it. I don't believe that I've called this "lateral relief" (which would be incorrect) because "lateral relief" is restricted to red penalty areas by the Rules.

 

Without seeing the specifics in the diagram in post #1, it may be possible that, with the Rules as written, there is a relief area on the greenside of that yellow penalty area based on BOL relief. But, because the penalty area is marked yellow, there is no "lateral relief".

 

BTW, you can also find "lateral relief" in Rule 19 (unplayable); it is also distinct from BOL relief in that Rule.

 

As someone said earlier, using the correct terminology when discussing Rules is important for everyone.

[cxx]

The way the yellow PA rule is written, there will always be relief on the green side PA border when the ball crosses in from that side. The point where the ball crossed into the PA will always be "no closer to the hole".

 

No, you are in the wrong, my friend. But fortunately it does not matter for long.

 

 

Why? Are you saying that the point of entry is in the PA? I seem to recall that under the old rules you were in a water hazard when the whole ball was in the hazard. Touching the line didn't put you in. It was one of the differences between hazards and the out of bounds, where if you touched the boarder you were out. That would seem to me to carry forward to the new rules on penalty areas. Then again, I'm not sure where in the rules that distinction was made.