How accurate is Trackman when measuring clubhead speed?

Trap Junior · February 3, 2019

For me I have my doubts its accurate from machine to machine. I think it may read different indoors or in poor light in a driving range to outdoors in bright light. Some machines it says my swing speed is 107-108 and gives me a 1.50 smash factor. Other machines tell me my speed is 110-115 with a 1.41 - 1.45 smash even when I have hit it smack on the sweetspot. I used spray to check. For my driver it usually says my ball speed should be much higher in Trackman optimiser.

I don't get it I could hit 60 balls on Trackman with driver and my ball speed never reads near my 'optimal ball speed potential'.

Even on strikes in the hottest part of the face I get ''low ball speed numbers''. Either my swing speed is not 110-115 but more realistically 104-109 and trackman is giving me false readings. Is this possible. My max ball speed is 166 and I only achieve this when I get a 114mph swing speed. My usual ball speed is 160-163.

Even when my clubhead speed is 112+ and my attack angle is good +2-5 degrees and my face to path and spin loft are good and strike is good I get low ball speed numbers. Launch is 11-14 usually. Spin 2300-2500 on average.

I always thought my low ball speed and low smash was to do with strike location but the spray shows even with perfect impact location I am low on ball speed by 4 mph or more.

ofAny Trackman experts know whats going on here? Inaccurate Trackmans or something I'm doing that I havent thought i

P.S. My 3 wood swing speed seems to read low on Trackman around 100-104 (max) yet my smash is 1.50 on most strikes.

Dcoop86 · February 3, 2019

First, maybe TrackMan isn’t the best for club speed but I have heard they are updating software on the 4 to use the camera for “optically enhanced radar” which mean club data SHOULD get better.

In terms of ball speed and center strikes, club delivery (path, face angel, angle of attack) will influence ball speed to a great degree on top of contact location. So even if you hit it in the center of the face, your club delivery may be losing you speed.

balata9999 · February 3, 2019

Its for sure diffrent indoors and out. Indoors it reads the flight from strike to net and from the software estimated the rest of the ball flight and data. Spin is usually pretty off as well. Outdoors it tracks the ball from stike to end of flight. Also you have the internal settings on the machine, regarding the normalization mode if its turned on or off and then further than that, the temp and elevation settings, the ball type used, etc. it is very accurate outdoors with normalization off for what the actual ball does, other than that it is going off internal settings to try and get close.

grochol17 · February 3, 2019

Just FYI, trackman uses microwaves to track the ball, so lighting conditions have nothing to do with it. You could hit balls in the dark and Trackman is still going to do its thing.

As for your question, since you’re using different machines it’s very possible they are not calibrated properly, which is why you’re getting odd numbers. Trackman is highly accurate when set up and used properly.

Krt22 · February 4, 2019

Ball speed is king. Indoor/outdoor definitely makes a difference. I can get 1.52 smash factors indoor with a driver and 1.46 with a 6i. In realiaty that isn't possible. TM in general will report a lower CHS vs GC quad since it measures CHS differently (CG of the club vs the face)

SUMM1T · February 4, 2019

I would argue that you’re swinging differently more than the Trackman is reading differently. Sure there is room for error since it isn’t a perfect launch monitor, but more often than not, as amateurs, we don’t produce repeatable swings as often as we think. Not only that, but sometimes we feel that we are swinging similarly to previous swings, but we are off by just enough. We aren’t as in tune with our swings as we think we are. However, to answer your question, Trackman often reads swing speed slower than GC Quad and other launch monitors. Indoors, it doesn’t always produce perfect numbers, but nothing beats it outdoors. GC Quad is probably the most accurate machine indoors, but even then, it has its issues.

rt_charger · February 4, 2019

In regards to GC Quad, frankly I don't understand how you can get accurate data on ball speed and club with Trackman because it's measuring from behind the club. GCQ is to the side so it can do a measurement easily the same way you measure speed of something using a high speed camera and calibration lines (Watch Mythbusters and gun related videos). For distances, yes 100% I can agree Trackman outdoors is the best because it's actually tracking the ball with radar. For pure club statistics and literal head to heads, GCQ would be better as due to the measurement point, it can gather better data + face and strike data.

Stuart_G · February 4, 2019

Just FYI, trackman uses microwaves to track the ball, so lighting conditions have nothing to do with it. You could hit balls in the dark and Trackman is still going to do its thing.

Well true except for the fact that florescent lights emit EM noise that can interfere with the radars. And indoors and outdoors can be an issue if there are a lot of source of reflection indoors (e.g. inside a metal building).

I don't understand how you can get accurate data on ball speed and club with Trackman because it's measuring from behind the club.

Google 'doppler radar' - It's the same way the police can get very accurate speed data when they are in front or behind you. Also same as the 'radar guns' used to measure the speed of a baseball (or anything else for that matter).

TM in general will report a lower CHS vs GC quad since it measures CHS differently (CG of the club vs the face)

Exactly, it's not a question of accuracy - but rather an issue of 'club head speed' being defined differently by the two units. They are both getting very accurate readings, they are just not reading the same thing.

Trap Junior · February 4, 2019

Does the outdoor readings read clubhead speed higher than the indoor readings?

What about a driving range off a mat with a concrete roof with the radar 'indoors' but the ball flight is outdoors? What effect does that have?

One other thing. Was watching the golf on tv last night and they gave ball speed numbers, carry distances etc, apex height. Matt Kuchar had a ball speed of 169mph yet according to his stats his clubhead speed is 108mph. According to trackman optimizer you cant achieve ball speeds of 169 with a 108 clubhead speed. He was only carrying it 255-265 yesterday.

Justin Thomas had ball speeds of mid 170's-180 and was only carrying it 280. Seems a bit off to me. My ball speeds are low 160's and I carry it 265+ in the same type of conditions they had yesterday.

MakersMarsh3 · February 4, 2019

Clubspeed and ball speed are not fixed variables, they vary a ton

and as has been said in your other topics.... Ballspeed rules all

Too many variables in clubhead speed

Not only do most tour pros swing fast, they're crazy efficient

Check your delivered loft and spin loft #s if you're not getting the speeds you want

Something is off and it's not the monitors

grochol17 · February 4, 2019

Just FYI, trackman uses microwaves to track the ball, so lighting conditions have nothing to do with it. You could hit balls in the dark and Trackman is still going to do its thing.

Well true except for the fact that florescent lights emit EM noise that can interfere with the radars. And indoors and outdoors can be an issue if there are a lot of source of reflection indoors (e.g. inside a metal building).

Can you explain why you think the interference would be a problem? I didn't think about EM interference from lights, but everything I can find on it suggests that it should be, at highest, in the low MHz range, not the 10.5 GHz that Trackman's radar operates at. So it seems to me unlikely that the lighting conditions in the room would be messing with the radar's operation. Or are you referring to noise introduced into the *electronics* of the unit causing problems with the readings?

I don't understand how you can get accurate data on ball speed and club with Trackman because it's measuring from behind the club.

Google 'doppler radar' - It's the same way the police can get very accurate speed data when they are in front or behind you. Also same as the 'radar guns' used to measure the speed of a baseball (or anything else for that matter).

In case rt_charger was referring to the fact that there is a brief period of time where the ball is hidden by the clubhead, Trackman also has this info explaining that the radar can actually "see" the impact:

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/looking-around-corners-radar/

and, even if this wasn't the case (or you don't believe this works as advertised), the ball is only blocked from direct view of the radar for a few milliseconds after impact. In that time the ball will not slow down appreciably, so you're still going to get the correct initial ball speed even if you wait until the clubhead is out of the way.

Howard_Jones · February 4, 2019

I would argue that you’re swinging differently more than the Trackman is reading differently. Sure there is room for error since it isn’t a perfect launch monitor, but more often than not, as amateurs, we don’t produce repeatable swings as often as we think. Not only that, but sometimes we feel that we are swinging similarly to previous swings, but we are off by just enough. We aren’t as in tune with our swings as we think we are. However, to answer your question, Trackman often reads swing speed slower than GC Quad and other launch monitors. Indoors, it doesn’t always produce perfect numbers, but nothing beats it outdoors. GC Quad is probably the most accurate machine indoors, but even then, it has its issues.

If he actually trace impact spot and compare them, and find them to be equal, Smash factor should be the same both in and outdoor so his question is more than valid if this is his observation, but i cant explain it with other things than possible calibration / set up error / Normalization vs NON NZ, different LM model/firm ware/updates, Range ball vs Gamer etc....

The differences has a reason, but what is the reason for those numbers?

KGilma · February 4, 2019

I bought a ping G from Golf galaxy back in August on their setup I was swinging 108-111 carrying 280, rolling to 305. I went in again Friday afternoon, and saw they had the new Cobra F9, so I gave it a shot. I hit about 30 balls ss was reading 98-101 with a carry of 240, rolling to 260. Both of these were on the same machine. Now, I'm not sure which is accurate.

grochol17 · February 4, 2019

I bought a ping G from Golf galaxy back in August on their setup I was swinging 108-111 carrying 280, rolling to 305. I went in again Friday afternoon, and saw they had the new Cobra F9, so I gave it a shot. I hit about 30 balls ss was reading 98-101 with a carry of 240, rolling to 260. Both of these were on the same machine. Now, I'm not sure which is accurate.

I'm not sure comparing the changes in your swing speed during the summer when, I assume, you're in mid season form to your swing speed during the middle of winter is a valid reason for questioning the launch monitor's accuracy.

jvincent · February 4, 2019

If you want to get your nerd on the following paper studied the accuracy of Trackman (model 3) and the GC2.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319147118_How_valid_and_accurate_are_measurements_of_golf_impact_parameters_obtained_using_commercially_available_radar_and_stereoscopic_optical_launch_monitors/download

TL;DR: Trackman is +/- 2.5 MPH when measuring CHS 87% of the time. Which means that 13% of the time it's off by even more.

Trap Junior · February 4, 2019

Here's an example of a perfectly struck shot right on the sweetspot as I used foot spray recent session on indoor trackman. TS3 driver 8.5 degree

Clubhead speed 112.0mph

Ballspeed 163.3 mph

Attack angle 3.0

Carry 278

Spin 2340

Dynamic loft 15.0

Path -0.1

Face to path 0.2

Smash 1.46

Height 116ft

Launch 13.6

According to trackman optimizer all the numbers are in the optimal zone except ballspeed which is 4mph below where it should be.

As I said I hit it super solid and the ball mark was dead on the sweetspot. This is why I believe Trackman may have overestimated my clubhead speed.

Can anyone explain the lack of ball speed?

Stuart_G · February 4, 2019

Well true except for the fact that florescent lights emit EM noise that can interfere with the radars. And indoors and outdoors can be an issue if there are a lot of source of reflection indoors (e.g. inside a metal building).

Can you explain why you think the interference would be a problem? I didn't think about EM interference from lights, but everything I can find on it suggests that it should be, at highest, in the low MHz range, not the 10.5 GHz that Trackman's radar operates at. So it seems to me unlikely that the lighting conditions in the room would be messing with the radar's operation. Or are you referring to noise introduced into the *electronics* of the unit causing problems with the readings?

It's a well known issue and it's not about the light levels. At least it is with Flightscope. I admit I'm assuming Trackman is similar. And it makes sense. Most radar is actually not just about a fixed carrier wave like radio but rather a pulse based system. detection and tracking the pulse returns is all about processing a return signal in above the ambient EM noise floor. Anything that adds to the EM noise (like fluorescent light transformers) is going to make the job more difficult and effect performance.

see the 'environmental requirements' here:

https://flightscope.com/products/flightscope-indoor-setup/

KGilma · February 4, 2019

I bought a ping G from Golf galaxy back in August on their setup I was swinging 108-111 carrying 280, rolling to 305. I went in again Friday afternoon, and saw they had the new Cobra F9, so I gave it a shot. I hit about 30 balls ss was reading 98-101 with a carry of 240, rolling to 260. Both of these were on the same machine. Now, I'm not sure which is accurate.

I'm not sure comparing the changes in your swing speed during the summer when, I assume, you're in mid season form to your swing speed during the middle of winter is a valid reason for questioning the launch monitor's accuracy.

Actually in August when i bought the Ping, I was buying clubs to play. I hadn't swung a club in 12 years. Last week, I played last saturday and went to the range on wednesday so it was more mid season form.

Stuart_G · February 4, 2019

If you want to get your nerd on the following paper studied the accuracy of Trackman (model 3) and the GC2.

https://www.research...nitors/download

TL;DR: Trackman is +/- 2.5 MPH when measuring CHS 87% of the time. Which means that 13% of the time it's off by even more.

It's interesting to note that of the 3 systems used, each used a different definition for club head speed. So the variations and comparisons really are not as enlightening as they might seem just looking at the data.

Krt22 · February 4, 2019

Just FYI, trackman uses microwaves to track the ball, so lighting conditions have nothing to do with it. You could hit balls in the dark and Trackman is still going to do its thing.

Well true except for the fact that florescent lights emit EM noise that can interfere with the radars. And indoors and outdoors can be an issue if there are a lot of source of reflection indoors (e.g. inside a metal building).

Can you explain why you think the interference would be a problem? I didn't think about EM interference from lights, but everything I can find on it suggests that it should be, at highest, in the low MHz range, not the 10.5 GHz that Trackman's radar operates at. So it seems to me unlikely that the lighting conditions in the room would be messing with the radar's operation. Or are you referring to noise introduced into the *electronics* of the unit causing problems with the readings?

CFLs create fields that can impact the way the radar behaves I believe. Flightscope (also radar based) even has directions to shield the unit from CFL lights when using it indoors

bradski · February 4, 2019

Here's an example of a perfectly struck shot right on the sweetspot as I used foot spray recent session on indoor trackman. TS3 driver 8.5 degree

Clubhead speed 112.0mph
Ballspeed 163.3 mph
Attack angle 3.0
Carry 278
Spin 2340
Dynamic loft 15.0
Path -0.1
Face to path 0.2
Smash 1.46
Height 116ft
Launch 13.6

According to trackman optimizer all the numbers are in the optimal zone except ballspeed which is 4mph below where it should be.

As I said I hit it super solid and the ball mark was dead on the sweetspot. This is why I believe Trackman may have overestimated my clubhead speed.

Can anyone explain the lack of ball speed?

Something seems off. if you are hitting an 8.5 head(likely 9+) with 0 path and getting 14 degree's of launch then the face has to have a bunch of added loft. hence, reducing the smash factor.

300_Straight · February 4, 2019

Different clubheads will also have different swing speed numbers from my experience. Take this for what it's worth, but I went for a fitting on Trackman with the Driver a couple weeks ago. I swung 2 different heads: Cobra King LTD Pro and Callaway X460 Tour. I was getting upwards of 6mph difference on swings. I know for a fact I don't swing the LTD Pro 6mph slower, so I'm assuming there was some kind of discrepancy in measuring the material makeup of the Driver perhaps? Or the shape? Idk, but I've heard this before with the LTD Pro. So, I feel your pain. I think my SF readings were all wrong with the LTD Pro because it was reading slower swing speeds but decent ball speeds. Those 1.50 - 1.52 I was seeing really probably should've been 1.43 to 1.45 MAX in my opinion.

Trap Junior · February 4, 2019

To give you another story from that session on trackman. I have been playing a 910 d3 for years. My swing speed with it was reading abnormally low when I went in. I am usually int he 108-113 range with it on trackman. I had warmed up previously too so was at full strength. First shot reads 102mph. I nearly fainted. The fastest I could get it was 107mph. This set alarm bells ringing for me as I am never that slow. My smash was reading 1.50. I hit a good few shots with it to get baseline number and then switched to the TS3 as I was interested in getting one. Its an inch longer than mine yet I was getting 112-115mph with it.

Here is some numbers from the D3 910

clubhead speed : 107.6

Ball speed 161.7

attack 3.2

carry 275.3

spin 2400

dynamic loft 15.8

Club path 2.0

Face to path -2.4

smash 1.50

height 120 ft

Launch 14.4

I highly doubt I am getting 7 mph more clubhead speed just going up 1 inch in shaft length from 44.5 to 45.5''

KMo23 · February 4, 2019

Do you want to know how fast you swing the heel of it or the toe of it? Different devices measure from different parts of the club- obviously the toe will be moving the fastest so machines that read off of that will read faster

jvincent · February 4, 2019

To give you another story from that session on trackman. I have been playing a 910 d3 for years. My swing speed with it was reading abnormally low when I went in. I am usually int he 108-113 range with it on trackman. I had warmed up previously too so was at full strength. First shot reads 102mph. I nearly fainted. The fastest I could get it was 107mph. This set alarm bells ringing for me as I am never that slow. My smash was reading 1.50. I hit a good few shots with it to get baseline number and then switched to the TS3 as I was interested in getting one. Its an inch longer than mine yet I was getting 112-115mph with it.

Here is some numbers from the D3 910

clubhead speed : 107.6
Ball speed 161.7
attack 3.2
carry 275.3
spin 2400
dynamic loft 15.8
Club path 2.0
Face to path -2.4
smash 1.50
height 120 ft
Launch 14.4

I highly doubt I am getting 7 mph more clubhead speed just going up 1 inch in shaft length from 44.5 to 45.5''

You are falling into the trap a lot of people do with launch monitor data.

You need to completely ignore smash factor and CHS. They simply don't matter. The things that do matter are what the ball does and as it turns out the various launch monitors actually measure the ball characteristics more accurately anyway.

As an example, do the following experiment. Maximum theoretical smash factor is 1.5. For an actual ballspeed of 165mph that means CHS = 110.

Calculate smash factor assuming the ball speed is 165MPH but with a CHS of 112.5 (LM reads too high) and CHS of 107.5 (LM reads too low). It gets even worse when you factor in potential errors in the ball speed reading.

bc1 · February 4, 2019

Does the outdoor readings read clubhead speed higher than the indoor readings?

What about a driving range off a mat with a concrete roof with the radar 'indoors' but the ball flight is outdoors? What effect does that have?

One other thing. Was watching the golf on tv last night and they gave ball speed numbers, carry distances etc, apex height. Matt Kuchar had a ball speed of 169mph yet according to his stats his clubhead speed is 108mph. According to trackman optimizer you cant achieve ball speeds of 169 with a 108 clubhead speed. He was only carrying it 255-265 yesterday.

Justin Thomas had ball speeds of mid 170's-180 and was only carrying it 280. Seems a bit off to me. My ball speeds are low 160's and I carry it 265+ in the same type of conditions they had yesterday.

On TV, they use protracer which is not TrackMan. I think it’s made by top golf. It’s not accurate at all. It reads way high on ball speed

Trap Junior · February 4, 2019

But why should I ignore the read outs of a $20,000 machine? You expect accuracy. If the readings are incorrect then they shouldn't give club speed and smash numbers and only the actual flight data.

Last night Kuchar hit a drive that went down the middle. It said his ball speed was 169mph. It carried 255. Seems very odd. His highest swing speed recorded for the whole of last season was 110.53. How is he getting 169 ball speed???

Tiger Woods had a swing speed of 129mph recorded on one drive last season yet the numbers didn't support that speed.

If Trackman can't read club speed for 20,000 then they should not be providing this parameter in their software.

bradski · February 4, 2019

But why should I ignore the read outs of a $20,000 machine? You expect accuracy. If the readings are incorrect then they shouldn't give club speed and smash numbers and only the actual flight data.

Last night Kuchar hit a drive that went down the middle. It said his ball speed was 169mph. It carried 255. Seems very odd. His highest swing speed recorded for the whole of last season was 110.53. How is he getting 169 ball speed???

Tiger Woods had a swing speed of 129mph recorded on one drive last season yet the numbers didn't support that speed.

If Trackman can't read club speed for 20,000 then they should not be providing this parameter in their software.

PGA tour doesn't use trackman as much. this is the new protracer they use that had wild numbers.

Trap Junior · February 4, 2019

You often see Trackmans on tripods behind the tees though

grochol17 · February 4, 2019

You often see Trackmans on tripods behind the tees though

The numbers NBC was showing are from toptracer, which is an imaging based system... it is NOT trackman. The numbers the PGA Tour reports in their database of statistics are, as far as I know, based on trackman readings. Thus, you can't mix, for example, Kuchar's avg clubhead speed in the PGA Tour database with the ball speeds toptracer is showing.