How to add Width and be on Plane

[97speedster]

> @iteachgolf said:

> What makes you think he fades the ball?

 

I was just asking a question.... he seems to like his shoulders open at impact and holds it off through the ball by keeping his left arm very straight. You teach any current PGA Tour players, I'm just curious?

[redraider1685]

No I play a slight push draw as my stock shot

[iteachgolf]

> @97speedster said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > What makes you think he fades the ball?

>

> I was just asking a question.... he seems to like his shoulders open at impact and holds it off through the ball by keeping his left arm very straight. You teach any current PGA Tour players, I'm just curious?

 

Top player I teach currently was 60th in OWGR before he missed 8.5 months due to injury, but has 4 top 20 finishes including an 2nd and 4th in his first 8 events back. One of my other students led the 3M in driving distance 2 weeks ago.

 

I’d think redraider plays push draws as his stock shot with a flat trajectory.

 

***Didn’t see he already replied

[Krt22]

> @redraider1685 said:

> > @97speedster said:

> > <@redraider1685

> > >

> > > I just do not agree with the back to the target thought. It might work for you but it is not reality for most.

> >

> > Butch is pretty good at what he does and video doesn’t lie, I see the change in my downswing shaft angle. You keep ignoring the video, I really want to see how you do it??

> >

> >

> >

>

> I'm not talking to butch I am talking to you here is my swing

>

>

>

>

> That's a 7 iron 95 mph 185 carry

>

 

Nice move!

[redraider1685]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @97speedster said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > What makes you think he fades the ball?

> >

> > I was just asking a question.... he seems to like his shoulders open at impact and holds it off through the ball by keeping his left arm very straight. You teach any current PGA Tour players, I'm just curious?

>

> Top player I teach currently was 60th in OWGR before he missed 8.5 months due to injury, but has 4 top 20 finishes including an 2nd and 4th in his first 8 events back. One of my other students led the 3M in driving distance 2 weeks ago.

>

> I’d think redraider plays push draws as his stock shot with a flat trajectory.

>

> ***Didn’t see he already replied

 

I actually went out to Jacksonville and saw Dan for a couple of days three years ago

 

Some of the best golf I have played followed that lesson he is a stud

 

 

[TIM929]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @redraider1685 said:

> > > @97speedster said:

> > > <@redraider1685

> > > >

> > > > I just do not agree with the back to the target thought. It might work for you but it is not reality for most.

> > >

> > > Butch is pretty good at what he does and video doesn’t lie, I see the change in my downswing shaft angle. You keep ignoring the video, I really want to see how you do it??

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I'm not talking to butch I am talking to you here is my swing

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > That's a 7 iron 95 mph 185 carry

> >

>

> Nice move!

 

that's a good looking swing.

[DonRSD]

@iteachgolf - when can I come up for a lesson. :)

[elcgolf]

Can you ***holes stay out of this thread, please! We don’t care about seeing your swing and how your shoulders may differ from what Speedster is advocating, or how you can think of an instance of a player where what he suggests doesn’t exist . Stay out!! We don’t care, this thread wasn’t about your ideas, we were interested because we wanted to hear Speedsters take. I feel like this is just another example of a few trolls sitting on their soapbox trying to derail what was a great thread.

 

Also, Iteach, your contributions are always valued and great reads, but this isn’t your thread

[J13]

> @redraider1685 said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @97speedster said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > What makes you think he fades the ball?

> > >

> > > I was just asking a question.... he seems to like his shoulders open at impact and holds it off through the ball by keeping his left arm very straight. You teach any current PGA Tour players, I'm just curious?

> >

> > Top player I teach currently was 60th in OWGR before he missed 8.5 months due to injury, but has 4 top 20 finishes including an 2nd and 4th in his first 8 events back. One of my other students led the 3M in driving distance 2 weeks ago.

> >

> > I’d think redraider plays push draws as his stock shot with a flat trajectory.

> >

> > ***Didn’t see he already replied

>

> I actually went out to Jacksonville and saw Dan for a couple of days three years ago

>

> Some of the best golf I have played followed that lesson he is a stud

>

>

 

Agree. I've worked with Iteach/Dan as well. Money well spent

[iteachgolf]

> @elcgolf said:

> Can you ***holes stay out of this thread, please! We don’t care about seeing your swing and how your shoulders may differ from what Speedster is advocating, or how you can think of an instance of a player where what he suggests doesn’t exist . Stay out!! We don’t care, this thread wasn’t about your ideas, we were interested because we wanted to hear Speedsters take. I feel like this is just another example of a few trolls sitting on their soapbox trying to derail what was a great thread.

>

> Also, Iteach, your contributions are always valued and great reads, but this isn’t your thread

 

Not trying to make it my thread or anything about me at all. I’m having a discussion about the topic at hand, and even told the OP that his feels matchup to his tendencies. But also people should know that those feels match his tendencies and aren’t applicable to everyone. And the title of the thread is about width and what Butch teaches. Don’t see anything that says only 97speedster can discuss the topic at hand

 

But since it seems like I’m not allowed to post in a thread unless I create the thread guess I’ll stop posting.

[elcgolf]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @elcgolf said:

> > Can you ***holes stay out of this thread, please! We don’t care about seeing your swing and how your shoulders may differ from what Speedster is advocating, or how you can think of an instance of a player where what he suggests doesn’t exist . Stay out!! We don’t care, this thread wasn’t about your ideas, we were interested because we wanted to hear Speedsters take. I feel like this is just another example of a few trolls sitting on their soapbox trying to derail what was a great thread.

> >

> > Also, Iteach, your contributions are always valued and great reads, but this isn’t your thread

>

> Not trying to make it my thread or anything about me at all. I’m having a discussion about the topic at hand, and even told the OP that his feels matchup to his tendencies. But also people should know that those feels match his tendencies and aren’t applicable to everyone. But since it seems like I’m not allowed to post in a thread unless I create the thread guess I’ll stop posting.

 

No, appreciate the contributions, I just think that it’s always refreshing to hear others takes. Fully agree that the swing thoughts applied only to OP, however, they may be a fraction of readers that it also applies to. Don’t mean to suggest that we don’t value your opinions, iTeach, you’re a valued contributor.

[97speedster]

Here is my lesson from December 11, 2001 at the Butch Harmon School that was about keeping my back to the target longer in order to shallow the shaft more on the downswing and sequence the head with it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[garyt]

 

>

 

 

[Wedgefromhere]

Martin Chuck also recommends to feel like you keep your back to the target longer to launch your driver. I've heard other instructors say the same thing. It probably helps a lot of golfers get their swing on plane and sync things up.

[youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s](

"youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s")

[97speedster]

> @Wedgefromhere said:

> Martin Chuck also recommends to feel like you keep your back to the target longer to launch your driver. I've heard other instructors say the same thing. It probably helps a lot of golfers get their swing on plane and sync things up.

> [youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s](

"youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s")

 

Martin’s a great guy... I was introduced to him in 1984 by Jim Furyk when him and I roomed together on the AJGA. I still keep in touch with Martin, he’s doing well with his products and teaching. Furyk hasn’t done too bad either ?.

[jgonz69]

Great. ?

I’m glad I got great info before the thread imploded in typical golfwrx style.

Now that the person who is gone from this thread is gone, the one who's (in my opinion) comments always come off as having a condescending tone, hopefully this great thread can continue.

 

 

[Ezgolfer]

> @Wedgefromhere said:

> Martin Chuck also recommends to feel like you keep your back to the target longer to launch your driver. I've heard other instructors say the same thing. It probably helps a lot of golfers get their swing on plane and sync things up.

> [youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s](

"youtube.com/watch?v=SyqxmgUCfpY&list=PLwQmHh57tvU9pZ8TAjshpKs4ui1QYfNO2&index=4&t=0s")

 

Add to the list..

Jim suttie

Zach Johnson

 

There are around 10 you tube video’s by other teachers describing this feel...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[97speedster]

> @elcgolf said:

> Speedster, I’ve been following this thread for a while and love the info. However, I’m still a little confused by the transition keys. Do you feel your arms working down, ala the old golf channel Tiger and Butch video, or do you feel the lower body driving the downswing? Or, do you feel them working together? Any drills outside of working with an impact bag? Thank you!!

 

 

One of the best drills out there.... only for practice swings, not for hitting balls. If you're struggling to release the club then make two split grip practice swings before each shot as part of your routine.

 

 

 

[97speedster]

Here is a good article about WIDTH from Golf Digest in October 2001. It was written 18 years ago, but Butch still teaches it the same. This is why he is such a big advocate of the Right Angle 2 set on half, it trains you to feel and groove it. Butch has been voted the number one teacher by his peers for 26 years. I'm glad I saved a lot of the articles I liked from back then!

 

 

[nikeblades00]

this is really a gem of a thread if you can get past all the distractions. I actually have an GD article saved to my phone about Butch Harmon called "shorter + wider = better". Which is part of my once a month check list along with many other keys and mental keys.

 

As someone who use to have a chronic over-swing, this thought has really helped me not over-rotate/ overswing and arm run off. The 2 key thoughts that work for me is keep clubhead outside my hands and right arm straight for as long as possible.

[TIM929]

> @97speedster said:

> > @elcgolf said:

> > Speedster, I’ve been following this thread for a while and love the info. However, I’m still a little confused by the transition keys. Do you feel your arms working down, ala the old golf channel Tiger and Butch video, or do you feel the lower body driving the downswing? Or, do you feel them working together? Any drills outside of working with an impact bag? Thank you!!

>

>

> One of the best drills out there.... only for practice swings, not for hitting balls. If you're struggling to release the club then make two split grip practice swings before each shot as part of your routine.

>

>

>

>

 

Thank you @97speedster !! This is just what I needed!!

[MK7Golf21]

You guys ever checked out these Butch Harmon videos on youtube from back in the 2000-2001 era? I've watched them a few times over the years, I use a lot of Butch/Tiger stuff in my own swing, mostly from Tigers book from back then "How I play golf" which is basically Butch's stuff. There is actually a lot of Butch's stuff from back then out there on youtube, everyone wanted a piece of it back then because of Tiger so it's well documented. Mostly all the same fundamentals that he likes in the videos though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXUM5hTZBI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n9GypWn-ns

[nikeblades00]

Thanks 97 and others. Some nuggets in this thread!

[wmblake2000]

> @redraider1685 said:

 

> I actually went out to Jacksonville and saw Dan for a couple of days three years ago

>

> Some of the best golf I have played followed that lesson he is a stud

>

Dan would be on my very short list of guys I’d like to work with...although my work with Monte (with an AMG assist) has me playing the best of my life.

 

 

[97speedster]

Great slow motion video of Tiger hitting a stinger that really shows his width and coil.

[Nard_S]

Width without good shoulder geometry is yielding only half the benefit. Pro's have spot on path of shoulders, duffers not so much.There's a complex blend of tilts and turn that can take quite some time to get right and is far more difficult than keeping hands away from body via right arm bend. But put the two together and yeah things can get really good.

[wmblake2000]

> @Nard_S said:

> Width without good shoulder geometry is yielding only half the benefit. Pro's have spot on path of shoulders, duffers not so much.There's a complex blend of tilts and turn that can take quite some time to get right and is far more difficult than keeping hands away from body via right arm bend. But put the two together and yeah things can get really good.

 

That is exactly what I have been figuring out. Nice call out!

 

 

[Krt22]

> @elcgolf said:

> Can you ***holes stay out of this thread, please! We don’t care about seeing your swing and how your shoulders may differ from what Speedster is advocating, or how you can think of an instance of a player where what he suggests doesn’t exist . Stay out!! We don’t care, this thread wasn’t about your ideas, we were interested because we wanted to hear Speedsters take. I feel like this is just another example of a few trolls sitting on their soapbox trying to derail what was a great thread.

>

> Also, Iteach, your contributions are always valued and great reads, but this isn’t your thread

 

> @wmblake2000 said:

> > @redraider1685 said:

>

> > I actually went out to Jacksonville and saw Dan for a couple of days three years ago

> >

> > Some of the best golf I have played followed that lesson he is a stud

> >

> Dan would be on my very short list of guys I’d like to work with...although my work with Monte (with an AMG assist) has me playing the best of my life.

>

>

 

I'm still waiting for this AMG/Monte colab to be released, whatever it may be!

[Nard_S]

> @wmblake2000 said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > Width without good shoulder geometry is yielding only half the benefit. Pro's have spot on path of shoulders, duffers not so much.There's a complex blend of tilts and turn that can take quite some time to get right and is far more difficult than keeping hands away from body via right arm bend. But put the two together and yeah things can get really good.

>

> That is exactly what I have been figuring out. Nice call out!

>

>

 

I've been noodling with shoulder action for quite sometime. Literally thousands of strikes, it is a hard to get the proper mix and cocktail of it. The width intent helps it but you can do width or good shoulder action on their own or do both and still screw up the blending of left/right torso tilt. Lots of variables and nuance. But as of recent, I was doing the width thing and still not getting full satisfaction, then I was 'hey maybe my left is still going too high on backswing', made the tweak, and went on to have some super pure striking and with every club, which is a real validation to me. The shoulders are the crankshaft of the golf swing, their importance to me has risen dramatically over last year or so. If I'm watching PGA golf, I'm watching their shoulder speed and action.Those guys are light years better than average Joe with it. I've come across only 2 guys who can swing with that kind of precise movement and boy, could they crush the ball.

[wmblake2000]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > Width without good shoulder geometry is yielding only half the benefit. Pro's have spot on path of shoulders, duffers not so much.There's a complex blend of tilts and turn that can take quite some time to get right and is far more difficult than keeping hands away from body via right arm bend. But put the two together and yeah things can get really good.

> >

> > That is exactly what I have been figuring out. Nice call out!

> >

> >

>

> I've been noodling with shoulder action for quite sometime. Literally thousands of strikes, it is a hard to get the proper mix and cocktail of it. The width intent helps it but you can do width or good shoulder action on their own or do both and still screw up the blending of left/right torso tilt. Lots of variables and nuance. But as of recent, I was doing the width thing and still not getting full satisfaction, then I was 'hey maybe my left is still going too high on backswing', made the tweak, and went on to have some super pure striking and with every club, which is a real validation to me. The shoulders are the crankshaft of the golf swing, their importance to me has risen dramatically over last year or so. If I'm watching PGA golf, I'm watching their shoulder speed and action.Those guys are light years better than average Joe with it. I've come across only 2 guys who can swing with that kind of precise movement and boy, could they crush the ball.

 

Are we twins? This is EXACTLY what I have been seeing. Get the left tilt/scapula protraction/shoulder stretch (big width) to mesh w/arm and shaft plane. It’s like getting them all aligned. (And don’t give all this torque away with lateral hips). I shot 76 yesterday with less than average short game, hitting 10 greens with distances that backed the clock up 20 years. Best, most solid ball striking I can remember. All with this core feel in the left shoulder. ‘Crankshaft’ is a great image.