Another golf myth? Bent right elbow for more power.

[smashdn]

> @Zitlow said:

> If you lock your right elbow to your right side then your club head speed is limited.

 

Why or how?

 

Also, it is an attempt to "feel as though you are pulling it into your hip" not a an actual act of touching of the right elbow to the hip bone. I can't physically do that without really leaning back and putting a sideways bend in my spine. It helps me to pull down form the top and create the big bend in the right elbow before releasing around my body and down along the target line.

[Fireballer]

> @cardoustie said:

 

> I am playing near the best golf of my life this season by "releasing the right side angles" as fast as I can from the top ...

 

I like that intent.

[Hackinator]

> @cardoustie said:

> All I know, as a lower capper, from a video lesson with @iteach, I had way too much right arm bend coming down

> Dan showed me side by sides with pro's and their right arms were incredibly straighter than mine halfway down, eye opener for sure

> I am playing near the best golf of my life this season by "releasing the right side angles" as fast as I can from the top ... Nicklaus used to speak of this

> Turn to the top, leave right shoulder where it is and fire arms and hands hard targetwards, YMMV of course

> For me .. holding the lag, hitting down swing thoughts etc are DEATH moves

 

Ye> @glk said:

> Starts during or shortly after transition. One example.

 

This is a great video and in my mind confirms that you can start straightening the right arm sooner rather than later.

 

I really like the AMG videos, I've been watching quite a few. Its great to actually substantiate what the pros are doing.

 

[TheSouthernGentleman]

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> The 90* guideline is the top of the swing so you don’t over bend it. No one says 90* downswing.

 

Wow....impressive.

[Hilts1969]

I think straightening the right arm is a given but in what direction and what to do with the wrist angles is the bit where it will fail or succeed. I did the iteach straight arm drill but it looked nothing like his.

[Jay28]

I don't think you widen the arc by straightening the right arm. Your left arm is still the same length.

Personally, the feeling of a bent right arm at impact promotes staying with the shot through impact.

[Hilts1969]

 

> I don't think you widen the arc by straightening the right arm. Your left arm is still the same length.

> Personally, the feeling of a bent right arm at impact promotes staying with the shot through impact.

It's more about keeping width also you're right can only be straight if it's back in front of your chest unless you have a real messed up pivot. It's a feel designed for maintaining width. Creating speed and syncing arms and pivot.

 

 

[airjammer]

Having a bent right arm is not the main power contributor but everything you have to do on the downswing to still have some flex in the elbow coming into impact is...opening hip with right hip not getting in the way, increasing hip flexion, right side bend etc

[Zitlow]

The hips turn 45*, shoulders 90* and the club head travels 170*. Throw the club head and pivot correctly the right forearm will unwind and the elbow will unfold at the perfect time.

[ferrispgm]

> @"David C" said:

> > @ferrispgm said:

> > A bent right arm is purely dependent on your physical makeup and not something you have to have. Some people with long arms and shorter stature will have a bunch....Others like me who are tall and have shorter arms will have much less. If I tried to have a bunch of arm bend my back would give out eventually as I would also need an excessive amount of right side bend to reach the ball.

>

>

> Not true at all. People don’t have such wildly different proportions in upper and lower arm length + torso and leg length. And even so, the more open you get, more your right shoulder gets through, with normal leg flexing, geometry says the right arm had to be bent. It’s garbage the long arm thing. Especially as if you are long armed then you will probably have flatter lie angles. I think the whole deal with the arm length thing is that people are trying to force themselves into this position by holding it with their arms, and simply do not buy into the fact that a better pivot, being more open, perhaps bein more flexible and athletic creates it. People don’t want to hear it. Saying it is a body proportion thing is just an reasonable sounding, effective sounding way of getting people to stop doing something really hurtful to their games.

>

> Even Ben Hogan, whom I suspect many people try to copy his bent right arm, and whom people say ‘well he had really long arms’ said not to force this position.

>

> His pivot speed and getting open are probably just as alien to the average golfer as his super long arms.

 

I'm not saying shorter armed people will have none....I'm saying they will have less, especially when they are taller. If you don't want to accept anatomy that's fine. It's definitely not something to chase and something that should be a result of everything else working properly. You don't need a bent right arm to play good golf. If that were the case, Phil Mickelson would be selling insurance somewhere instead of playing on tour with the career he has had. I'm not saying it isn't something good to have but it's not a "swing secret". Heck, I don't have the best pivot as I have a hard time rotating and my arm is straight at impact and I'm a +1 who plays once per week and averages 32 putts per round. But if people want to chase Hogans positions they would be better off just wearing a goofy hat and starting a youtube channel.

[MPStrat]

A bent right arm at impact has very little to do with "power" as you'll see many super long hitters without much right arm bend. That doesn't mean that standing up and thrusting the right arm is a recipe for great face control, but as far as pure speed goes I would think that right arm bend at impact is pretty much irrelevant.

[Zitlow]

Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

 

 

[ddetts]

> @Zitlow said:

> Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

>

>

>

 

Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

[Hackinator]

> @ddetts said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

 

Why does he need the band.. I don't get it what he is trying to do.

Also if you swung the club with your right arm only.. you would extend the arm and create a big arc to swing the most efficiently. There is no way you would tuck the elbow and release it at the last moment.

 

 

[Jay28]

> @Hilts1969 said:

>

> > I don't think you widen the arc by straightening the right arm. Your left arm is still the same length.

> > Personally, the feeling of a bent right arm at impact promotes staying with the shot through impact.

> It's more about keeping width also you're right can only be straight if it's back in front of your chest unless you have a real messed up pivot. It's a feel designed for maintaining width. Creating speed and syncing arms and pivot.

>

>

 

Not really seeing it, to be honest....but there are of course many ways to swing the club.

A straight right arm, physically, can not lengthen the arc of an already straight left arm. The centre of the arc is at the sternum..with a straight left arm there is no way that a straight right arm or bent right arm makes any difference to the width of the arc, surely???? I get that keeping the right arm as straight as possible in the backswing ensures a straight left arm and thus a wide arc, but at impact the left arm is almost always straight anyway.

 

Sorry, maybe not understanding what you are saying.

[glk]

> @Jay28 said:

> > @Hilts1969 said:

> >

> > > I don't think you widen the arc by straightening the right arm. Your left arm is still the same length.

> > > Personally, the feeling of a bent right arm at impact promotes staying with the shot through impact.

> > It's more about keeping width also you're right can only be straight if it's back in front of your chest unless you have a real messed up pivot. It's a feel designed for maintaining width. Creating speed and syncing arms and pivot.

> >

> >

>

> Not really seeing it, to be honest....but there are of course many ways to swing the club.

> A straight right arm, physically, can not lengthen the arc of an already straight left arm. The centre of the arc is at the sternum..with a straight left arm there is no way that a straight right arm or bent right arm makes any difference to the width of the arc, surely???? I get that keeping the right arm as straight as possible in the backswing ensures a straight left arm and thus a wide arc, but at impact the left arm is almost always straight anyway.

>

> Sorry, maybe not understanding what you are saying.

 

Club head arc. Though you can narrow your hand path arc by increasing right arm bend in downswing and/or by movement of the shoulders - golfer find lots of ways to lose width - Tyler Ferrell says he can pretty accurately guess a player cap just from seeing his arc width graph ( and not the actual swing).

[Zitlow]

> @Hackinator said:

> > @ddetts said:

> > > @Zitlow said:

> > > Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

>

> Why does he need the band.. I don't get it what he is trying to do.

> Also if you swung the club with your right arm only.. you would extend the arm and create a big arc to swing the most efficiently. There is no way you would tuck the elbow and release it at the last moment.

>

>

He was demonstrating that a swing isn't a pull with the left arm or left side. A swing without the rope.

 

 

 

[ddetts]

> @Zitlow said:

> > @Hackinator said:

> > > @ddetts said:

> > > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

> >

> > Why does he need the band.. I don't get it what he is trying to do.

> > Also if you swung the club with your right arm only.. you would extend the arm and create a big arc to swing the most efficiently. There is no way you would tuck the elbow and release it at the last moment.

> >

> >

> He was demonstrating that a swing isn't a pull with the left arm or left side. A swing without the rope.

>

>

>

>

 

Who is this?

[Fireballer]

> @ddetts said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > > @Hackinator said:

> > > > @ddetts said:

> > > > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > > Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

> > >

> > > Why does he need the band.. I don't get it what he is trying to do.

> > > Also if you swung the club with your right arm only.. you would extend the arm and create a big arc to swing the most efficiently. There is no way you would tuck the elbow and release it at the last moment.

> > >

> > >

> > He was demonstrating that a swing isn't a pull with the left arm or left side. A swing without the rope.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Who is this?

 

Austin?

[Hackinator]

> @Jay28 said:

> > @Hilts1969 said:

> >

> > > I don't think you widen the arc by straightening the right arm. Your left arm is still the same length.

> > > Personally, the feeling of a bent right arm at impact promotes staying with the shot through impact.

> > It's more about keeping width also you're right can only be straight if it's back in front of your chest unless you have a real messed up pivot. It's a feel designed for maintaining width. Creating speed and syncing arms and pivot.

> >

> >

>

> Not really seeing it, to be honest....but there are of course many ways to swing the club.

> A straight right arm, physically, can not lengthen the arc of an already straight left arm. The centre of the arc is at the sternum..with a straight left arm there is no way that a straight right arm or bent right arm makes any difference to the width of the arc, surely???? I get that keeping the right arm as straight as possible in the backswing ensures a straight left arm and thus a wide arc, but at impact the left arm is almost always straight anyway.

>

> Sorry, maybe not understanding what you are saying.

 

Not sure why it works but extending the right arm earlier is giving me more extension passed impact.

One caveat i discovered is that I have get the clubface square early in the downswing. But then I can extend.

[Zitlow]

> @ddetts said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > Draw your own conclusions about the importance of the right hand.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Really cool stuff there! Never seen that video before!

 

He was using his right glute, hip and thigh to amplify the force/energy of the club head into the ball similar to the way a soccer style field goal kicker applies more force/energy into a football.

[ukphilj]

Athletic Motion Golf have shown on YouTube  that tour pros start to straighten the right arm very early in the downswing. Someone asked how is this possible if the left arm is already straight? Well it's because the straightening of the right arm causes both arms to move away from the chest and down. Try it. Also it's possible to still keep your right elbow close to your right side while straightening, again because the arms move off the chest. This doesn't mean there won't still be some bend in the right arm at impact. There will be if done right. This also has no impact on maintaining lag in the wrists. In fact it will help maintain wrist angles. This has without doubt been one of the biggest reasons for me personally in hitting crisper, more consistent shots.

[DeadPoets]

On 8/26/2019 at 10:29 AM, ferrispgm said:

A bent right arm is purely dependent on your physical makeup and not something you have to have. Some people with long arms and shorter stature will have a bunch....Others like me who are tall and have shorter arms will have much less. If I tried to have a bunch of arm bend my back would give out eventually as I would also need an excessive amount of right side bend to reach the ball.

This is me to a T.  I always suspected that I won't have much arm bend because of my high waist/long legs.  Every time I try to keep it bent it requires me to get uncomfortably bent over. I realize there is some bending and flexion at impact, but I don't know, I had trouble achieving it.

[blehnhard]

The drill that Rory does shows a quick straightening of the right arm. AMG tests show that getting early hand speed is important to getting max chs later. Unbending the right elbow early would seem to help in getting early hand speed.

[glk]

The right (trail) elbow is the most significant  power source of either arm as measured by Nesbit in his work and power paper with Serrano.    It is not that it is bent but rather than is it straightening thru impact and not before that adds speed.

[stingerfade]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

The right (trail) elbow is the most significant  power source of either arm as measured by Nesbit in his work and power paper with Serrano.    It is not that it is bent but rather than is it straightening thru impact and not before that adds speed.

The only thing is the downswing is so fast that you must have the intent of straightening right away or you’re too late?

[blehnhard]

If the straightening of the trail arm is a significant power source in the swing (not sure if most significant), the question is when to apply this force. If max hand speed (handle speed) should be reached earlier rather than later, then I would tend to believe that applying this force from the straightening of the trail elbow should be sooner rather than later.

 

The "release" in the golf swing is a much debated term. However, testing has shown that hand (handle) speed decreases as the club head speed increases during "release".  Whether "release" should be "active" or "passive" is subject to much debate. Much has been said about "parametric" acceleration during release - "pulling up" on the handle (rising of lead shoulder coupled with straightening of the lead leg) as a way to increase speed.

 

I think that any late "straightening" of the elbow contributes little to speed and is more a result of the pull of the accelerating club head.

 

Flame suit available if needed.

 

Bruce

Edited June 30, 2021 by blehnhard

[hoganfan924]

2 hours ago, blehnhard said:

If the straightening of the trail arm is a significant power source in the swing (not sure if most significant), the question is when to apply this force. If max hand speed (handle speed) should be reached earlier rather than later, then I would tend to believe that applying this force from the straightening of the trail elbow should be sooner rather than later.

 

The "release" in the golf swing is a much debated term. However, testing has shown that hand (handle) speed decreases as the club head speed increases during "release".  Whether "release" should be "active" or "passive" is subject to much debate. Much has been said about "parametric" acceleration during release - "pulling up" on the handle (rising of lead shoulder coupled with straightening of the lead leg) as a way to increase speed.

 

I think that any late "straightening" of the elbow contributes little to speed and is more a result of the pull of the accelerating club head.

 

Flame suit available if needed.

 

Bruce

 

Handle (and hand) speed decreasing as the clubhead releases is a simple matter of physics - conservation of energy and of angular momentum (see a sling trebuchet as an example, with the wrist joint being analogous to the sling attachment point, the sling being analogous to the club).  In the early days of HS video and 3-D motion capture, a lot of teachers got the cause & effect completely backwards, as they did with other segments slowing down.  I think many still get it backwards, teaching that one segment must slow down first, in order to transfer speed to the other, when the slowdown is really either related to approaching end of range motion of that body part, conservation of momentum of the accelerating clubhead, or a combination of both.  Even had some debates on here about 10 years ago on this, with some very high profile instructors using completely incorrect analogies like "objects in the car continuing to "accelerate forward," when the car is braking."  Frankly, there were a lot of terrible swing ideas promoted over the last 15 years by instructors trying to use these newfound data tools, while have little to no understanding of physics, and then getting cause and effect confused.  To the golfer, "braking" your shoulders may feel powerful, because the hands/arms feel like they're whipping across your chest, but to the ball it's not adding to clubhead speed (frame of reference problem for the golfer).

 

The right elbow bending is a "power accumulator" in TGM terms, and the straightening of the right arm can contribute to CHS, but "running out of right arm" before impact is disastrous for almost every player, as they lose clubface and lowpoint control, which is one reason great players tend to be much more open with their shoulders and maintain considerable right elbow bend at impact, even great players that TGM'rs would classify as "hitters."

 

I believe that parametric acceleration of the handle is valid, but it's as much for clubface control as speed, IMO, and the more lag you have, the more parametric acceleration you need.  I think that the direction must be centripetal not "up" though, more "up the plane."

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by hoganfan924
add video

[DeadPoets]

Is there a video of iTeach’s straight arm drill?

[LeftDaddy]

On 6/30/2021 at 3:27 PM, hoganfan924 said:

 

Handle (and hand) speed decreasing as the clubhead releases is a simple matter of physics - conservation of energy and of angular momentum (see a sling trebuchet as an example, with the wrist joint being analogous to the sling attachment point, the sling being analogous to the club).  In the early days of HS video and 3-D motion capture, a lot of teachers got the cause & effect completely backwards, as they did with other segments slowing down.  I think many still get it backwards, teaching that one segment must slow down first, in order to transfer speed to the other, when the slowdown is really either related to approaching end of range motion of that body part, conservation of momentum of the accelerating clubhead, or a combination of both.  Even had some debates on here about 10 years ago on this, with some very high profile instructors using completely incorrect analogies like "objects in the car continuing to "accelerate forward," when the car is braking."  Frankly, there were a lot of terrible swing ideas promoted over the last 15 years by instructors trying to use these newfound data tools, while have little to no understanding of physics, and then getting cause and effect confused.  To the golfer, "braking" your shoulders may feel powerful, because the hands/arms feel like they're whipping across your chest, but to the ball it's not adding to clubhead speed (frame of reference problem for the golfer).

 

The right elbow bending is a "power accumulator" in TGM terms, and the straightening of the right arm can contribute to CHS, but "running out of right arm" before impact is disastrous for almost every player, as they lose clubface and lowpoint control, which is one reason great players tend to be much more open with their shoulders and maintain considerable right elbow bend at impact, even great players that TGM'rs would classify as "hitters."

 

I believe that parametric acceleration of the handle is valid, but it's as much for clubface control as speed, IMO, and the more lag you have, the more parametric acceleration you need.  I think that the direction must be centripetal not "up" though, more "up the plane."

 

 

Thread over.