Rejecting the modern game

[Fellaheen51]

Being that you mentioned sizing up distances. If I can spot the 150 yard marker, can determine a relative distance quite well. Close enough for my purposes. One of the buds carries a laser. Likes to call out the distances. (Find it rather annoying actually, but he's a friend.) Uncanny how close I gage the distance with some eyeballing and quick extrapolation from the 150 mark. "That looks like an 8 iron shot". For the last 1.5 season, I've begun using an inexpensive GPS device that I clip to my belt that gives me basic front, center, back distances. If I remember to charge it up prior. And to bring it along. Which is maybe half the time. Which really isn't that big a deal, just revert back to how I use do it like forever.

Your "shot" also reminded me of one similar from earlier in the season. Off in the netherlands, behind some trees, but I saw a pathway to the green. Don't remember how far, but was of some distance (140'ish?). Hooding a 5 iron, hit a flush low screamer, under the overhanging branches, running the ball up and onto the green to appx. 10'. A Seve shot as I call them. Pretty sweet, receiving kudos from the playing partners. Had virtually the same shot, from almost the same location later in the year. And hit a tree limb. Ricochetting the ball across the fairway perpendicularly. Oh well, I did it once so I know that I'm capable. Simply a matter of correct execution.

[scomac2002]

These trick shot tales remind me of a shot that I executed a few years back slicing a 3 iron around a tree onto a protected green from about 120 out with an exaggerated cut pitch swing. I figure that was about a 1 in 10 type shot, just got lucky enough to get it on the first attempt!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Actually, I should clarify: I’m not sure that the old Tour Model Titleist irons are on the conforming list, just that the grooves should be legal. This was something told to me by a local pro, so it may not be accurate. He said the old Titleist grooves had conforming V grooves (I think it’s V grooves that are OK). Mizuno irons also may not be on the list, but many—if not all—the MP line are supposed to be conforming because that was the way Mizuno made their irons (Wedges are a different matter).

  But that brings up the problem you mention. Who wants to spend the time and money submitting a set for confirmation? I remember reading about one member on here who sent in a set of Vega irons (IIRC) for inspection. Most of the irons were OK, but a couple in the set weren’t. Like one groove on the face was too wide or something as minute as that.

 Like you said, who wants to go through all the hassle just to get rejected for something like that? 

 

[No5somes]

In order to get the true experience of using equipment from that era, you must include a golf ball from that time. Modern day ball is making that equipment perform better than it would otherwise. Although, long irons may actually be easier to elevate an old ball due to the increase in ball spin; then there's the lost ball thing that would occur from the additional side spin.

[Mudguard]

This is an interesting point. I'm not sure anyone would play with vintage sets if they had to use the period correct ball. I have two dozen Tour Balatas left. Yes I know they are 20 years old. But they go absolutely nowhere.

I think a more interesting test of vintage vs modern, would be to make the modern set match the vintage specs. I'm sure people play better with vintage clubs simply because they are shorter and have more loft, therefore straighter. With the exception of modern woods, iron technology hasn't really changed that much. If your shaft length and loft is the same, how much further can a modern club go?

I could probably test this actually. I've got some old Tour Edition blades.

The Tour Edition 8 iron is almost the same as my MP20 9 iron. Same length and loft. I could probably hit some balls on the range and measure the carry of each.

I have some Ping Eye 2 persimmon woods too. I don't think there's much point comparing that driver to my modern one. There's probably three inches of shaft length difference for a start.

[stixman]

I think you are dead wrong. I play vintage clubs because I played to a UK 5 handicap with the old gear at Moortown, one of our most challenging inland courses. The cuuent ball goes further than the old one, but the course hasn't changed, only my abilities as time passes. At 75 I now play a UK 12 'cap ( 5ft 7ins and 150 lbs), I have some sort of measure of how my golf game has declined, I'm not Peter Pan, I'm not going to live forever and I enjoy the frustrations of golf esp. the added perverse enjoyment of my decline. I wouldn't have it any other way.

How can you say you love golf when you are continually looking for something which gives you an edge other than your own abilities.

I say to do that is cheating the game and yourself.

[TimK1]

Cool,

It's awesome when you pull it off. I do it in practice all the time. I'll aim directly across the driving range to my left. We have a road that runs along the range at our club. I'll hit it and try to hit a massive cut and end up on the other side of the range. The other one is aiming totally right and trying to draw the ball back onto the range. If it goes straight it goes into the woods on the back half of the range. If it draws it starts over the course and draws back into the range. If it cuts, well I'm hurting somebody. I wait until nobody is coming up Number two. The green is about 200 yards away and right of the range.

Or I take a 3 iron or some other club and try to hit 80 shots with it. It's amazing how many of these shots I end up trying in play. I figure the more shots you have the better. I'll admit I caved in to the range finder and used it once. I found it annoying pulling that thing out and standing there trying to look through it. It's been in my bag for a year, still almost brand new. Never used it since.

[TimK1]

The other one I love is trying to totally hood a shorter iron and see how far I can hit it. I once tried to tin cup and play 9 holes with a seven iron. I cheated though and used a putter also. I shot a 42. Not bad. It's weird trying to hit a 30 yard shot with that.

[scomac2002]

That sounds like a running pitch in my books. They actually come up fairly often when I hit an approach heavy. It's actually pretty easy to hit with a chipper, in fact I find that sort of shot easier with one of those specialty clubs than the actual greenside chip that they're designed for! I've even used a chipper for a full swing quite successfully. May not be in the spirit of traditional golf, but anything that promotes creativity can't be all bad as that seems to be what's most lacking in the modern game.

[NRJyzr]

 

I don't particularly agree, only because it's increasingly impossible to find old balls, and they're all seriously degraded due to their age. I lucked into a dozen Maxfli Elites a year or so ago, intended to take them on the course last year but never did. I'll enjoy using them, but I'm not going to restrict myself to them.

If one really wants to play with higher spin golfballs, there's always the Kirkland Signature 3 piece ball. It's said to spin more than anything else on the market, and as such, plays shorter as you move up the swingspeed chain.

I've chosen, for now, to chase the feel side of the equation, and bought another batch of Wilson Staff Duo Professionals. They provide nearly the same feel as a wound ball, have a urethane cover for green side spin, and are quite good in the wind. I'm not finding the wind performance to be anti-anachronistic, the HT-100s I've played off and on the last half dozen years are possibly even straighter in the wind. Absurdly so, I would say. Maybe it's just a Maxfli thing.

[No5somes]

Hadn't meant to suggest that older balls were readily available today. It was just an observation regarding the difference. I remember balls from the early to mid 70's & they were stone aged in comparison to even high spin balls of today. It's a major reason why guys who saw Jack & his generation play are so adamant as to their abilities & historical status. It's cool what you're doing, playing older equipment.

[NRJyzr]

 

For my part, I didn't read it that way. It's really just that I don't find using the older balls as essential as others may. {shrug}

I realize I'm picking nits LOL, but it's what I do. Not like I can hit the course right now, we just got 8" of snow. Stupid weather.

[BIG STU]

Yep I know who that member is he is a fellow South Carolinian. In fact I think he was going to play some CGA events and state events. Yep I remember the whole deal on those Vega irons. My contention has always been irons like mine and even Pings were legal when submitted on the date of manufacture. I know the rift I got into it with the CGA was that they are not on the conforming list but I told them they are not on the non conforming list either. I got the final barb in when I said well I guess Jack won 18 championships with non conforming clubs not to mention what other players won with Macgregor equipment. Between them and the USGA on my Am status I told both of them where to go and carried on doing my own thing---- I do not need either one of them to have fun playing golf

[TimK1]

I love the older equipment but not the ball or the woods for that matter. I use 22 year old irons but I never warmed up to the old drivers and woods. I practice with one to groove the sweet spot but don't wanna give up the distance off the tee.

The irons I'm ok giving up 5 or 10 yards. I'm ok with the modern ball.

I'm not really a true traditionalist like that. I play the irons because it promotes a shallower angle of approach to the ball. Not because I'm in love with the past. Instead of the newer jacked up loft and lie angle clubs now. The older ones promote a better swing path for me. I I hate the longer shaft also.

I suppose I could have a set built like that, that is new but what's the point. I can get a nice set for 150 dollars as opposed to 1200 dollars and up

[NRJyzr]

I'm developing an interest in older metal woods of the 90s, and even into the early 2000s, those stainless and Ti drivers that max largely around 300cc, and usually less. Trotted out a few old component drivers this past season, ranging from 230cc to 275cc. Found them very interesting to hit. And, aside from the obvious displacement based forgiveness difference, not especially shorter.

Don't know what it is about this era. Perhaps it's just related to when I started playing the game, which was September, 1998.

[James the Hogan Fan]

I played 9 with a 6 iron and on one par 3 of 120 yards I did the opposite. Teed it up driver height and laid the face open like a bunker shot. Full swing went maybe 150' due up, and 30-40 yards of left to right. Missed the green by a mile but the distance was stone dead on. Fun to try it anyways.

I did not, however, shoot a 42. Wet, soft golf course and some 450 yard holes made that impossible...

[Night Putter]

And...so created a best hits bag:

J33r Bridgestone driver, 2 kasko hybrids, Titleist 990b irons, 2 Cleveland 588 wedges. A ping my day putter.

happy as a clam. Trust worthy old friends.

[TimK1]

LOL

Classic!!!

[TimK1]

Most of my clubs holes are between 390 and 425 on the par fours. The longest one os on the back. I played the front nine. I did really well. I'd hit a 7 with a closed face off the tee. I could usually get it to around 50 yards or less and then I would have to finesse a shot to the green.

The par threes and we have a two shorter par fives on the front. They are about 520 or so. The longest par three on that nine is 150. Now I played the white tees. If I played the back tees it would have been a much higher score.

Those 150 yard par threes turn into 190 and 210.

[BIG STU]

I have several of the first generation metal woods as I call them among them several Big Berthas and a Js Weapon---- Back when those came out I was still gaming persimmon with steel shafts. I had a bad rope hooking problem in those days especially with the driver. The early graphite shafts combined with the metal heads I could hit rope hooks that went like the Energizer bunny kept going going several zip codes left. Never went to metal until 02 or so and then my first metal driver was a small headed Founders Judge with an X-1000 steel. My first modern metal with graphite was a Golf Gear Tsunami 8* with a Golf Gear Tour X stiff shaft. Still have the Tsunami and heck no I will not attempt to hit it now. But for some reason I have tried some of the first generation metal woods and found I hit the persimmon much better

[TimK1]

It is great practice. It forces you to figure out how to get the ball in the hole. You really have to invent shots. I would totally hood the 7 off the tee and rotate the hell out of my body to keep it online. Totally against my natural swing.

I could get one out there 185 or so that way but it was havoc on my body. LOL

[BIG STU]

That last sentence says it all. I am not familiar with Kasko Hybrids but can relate to the 588s and believe it or not I have never owned a My Day out of all the Ping Putters I own---- I do own two of the My Day's cousins a Zing2 and a Zing. Please educate me on the Kasco hybrids

[ChipNRun]

I played the MacGregor MT forged blade irons from 1974-1994. One thing I miss about those and older irons is that the long irons would stay low if you hit a punch shot.

If I was in the tree line, I could hit a slap fade with a 2i or 3i that came out low about 140 yards and then ran 50 more up to the fringe. With new high-launch heads and shafts, keeping shots under 5 feet high can be tough.

[memphishorn]

i don’t plan to reject the modern game because I’m having to much fun being a 65 year old 7 hdcp (same as when I Was 18-20), have to much invested in a current Titleist bag of clubs, and I would consistently be at a disadvantage with everyone else my group.

That said I’m am planning to start playing my vintage bag more than the one or two times a year I do now. I do have a major drop off in tee shot distance with my Mac’s vs my TS2 so I have to move up a set of tees. I would like to find others in the Memphis area that enjoy the vintage game so we can set up regular persimmon games.

[Mudguard]

I'm not debating whether people enjoy using older equipment, I'm just pondering, with the irons especially, is how different they are? As I said in my example, I have some mid eighties Tour Edition blades, but spec wise, the 8 iron is almost the same as my 2019 MP20 9 iron.

If I get a chance, I'll try and hit the two back to back on some kind of radar. I've used the Tour Editions very rarely, they have an extremely narrow sole, weaker (traditional) lofts, and the clubhead is quite a bit smaller in general.

[NRJyzr]

 

An obvious comment... it will vary by model. When I got a set of Mizuno MS-11s, which have a 27* 5i, they gave me a higher trajectory then my Vibration Matched Golden Rams, which I'd had set at 30* 5i. When I first built a 986 Tour 8i (42*), I was shocked at how much lower it flew at first.

If you discount/allow for those sort of trajectory variations, generally speaking, your shot results will tend to follow the lofts of the clubs being hit. Your 38* 8i will fly about the same distance as your 38* 7i. Emphasis on "generally speaking."

[BIG STU]

On the "generally speaking" thing a lot depends on head design as to where most of the weight is placed. Also the same shaft may react differently on different heads. You will find variance a lot of times using shaft pulls. On the MacHogans I used shafts from 3 different sets of Hogans to get them like I wanted them. On the Muirfields with the #3 shafts I had to experiment and ended up soft stepping them 1 time to get them where I wanted them. Actually the 2 and 3 irons of that set have #2 Apex shafts in them. And a lot of things depend on ones swing speed and angle of attack. One of the reasons I am a firm believer of super tuning a club and what may work for me may not work for you or anyone else. I know my buddy the Miura dealer reverse engineered one of my sets and like we discussed one night my lie variances are off according to "standards" my shaft frequencies are off too according to standards. But basically he said that I hit them good and that is what counts. He actually told me if I ever wanted to build a set of Miura irons he would sell me the heads and let me build them for me my way.

[TimK1]

The reason I play older equipment is that for me, I actually find them easier to play than the current clubs. I like weaker loft angles and a little shorter shaft. I'm 6ft and 185.

I'm ok giving up some distance on the irons. I can hit the long irons on older equipment much better than the new ones. I have Mizuno MP 69's besides my MP 14' I have found that anything over a six iron I struggle with. I'm a two handicap and I struggle with them. The jacked up loft angles and longer shaft doesn't suit me at all. The 14 have the same shaft length but I shortened them .50.

I love how the 69's feel but I always felt I had to work too hard to make the same swing as I do with the 14's.

If I was to play the 69's regularly I would have to shorten the shaft and bend the loft and lie angles. I don't want to bother. I figure why? I wouldn't hit them further or better than the 14's so what's the point?

[Nomad Golfer]

 

I have a secondary bag with MacGregor irons and Persimmon woods which is fun to take out now and then. With this set I do use soft balls e.g. W/S Duo and these seem to suit the older clubs. One noticeable thing though is the way these clubs in their MacGregor classic green & white staff bag are head turners on the course and parked outside the clubhouse.

[BIG STU]

Nomad glad to see you back old buddy---- My Mac Tartan bag gets looks when I drag it out--- I think most of these "new schoolers" are trying to figure out what "new" golf company Macgregor is. For some reason the one bag that gets attention around here from the latest and greatest tourist crowd is my Titleist mini staff bag. Now that thing is in good shape but about 12 years old. I will see them checking it out on the range and look puzzled and shocked when they see my lead taped VIPs in there. One of the reasons I went to an old Jones Classic non -descript bag or as equally non-descript old school Burton mini staff non logo. I do not like to draw attention and like to fly under the radar. Sorta my anti yuppie anti look at me persona