Fitted Clubs vs Purchased Clubs - Forum View

[Howard_Jones]

Here is one of many players ive been able to help online. Read it, and tell me that club specs dont matter, or that this man has a lack of talent, and should just keep up playing until the clubs worked for him?

I guess those above who doubt the value of correct club specs dont come close to this player in talent or scoring, but non of you is honest enough to admit that your game has weaknesses you would rather be without, but this man could, and for that reason he could improve it, thats where it starts, so drop that nonsense about talent, that want be enough if you really wants to improve, the clubs will have to be a good fit to really make it to your actual potential.

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1782086/my-moi-iron-build-thank-you-howard/p1

[WristySwing]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > i think this whole debate is plain out stupid.

> > > Fitting is NOT a standardized concept, not even close.

> > > There is good club fitters, and many bad ones.

> > > The reason for why someone wants a fitting is not the same for all, and its not always isolated to improved scoring.

> > > Some play only for fun, but its not funny to play clubs you struggle with.

> > > Even the best players out there cant play "what ever", they need something that works for them to perform and make a living out if it.

> > > The average player will benefit from fitting in general, for the simple reason, the numbers of options today is more than just a jungle, its a massive jungle hardly anyone has the full insight on.

> > > If you feel fitting is overrated, fine, but please dont start debates like this, they helps absolutely nobody at all.

> > > Ive been a member of this forum for about 10 years now, and have posted and replied close to 10.000 posts.

> > > If it was not helpful for other players that i did so, i would have stopped long ago, just like i was advised to stop playing golf due to medical reason, but club fitting and correct fitted equipment makes it possible for me to keep playing. Those who thinks club fitting is overrated, has never been fitted right, but dont blame "fitting" for that, its not a standardized concept and never will be, and if club specs did not matter, this part of the forum would not exist, or died out for "natural reasons" very long time ago.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Howard, this is so true. I have to laugh at all of these + handicaps coming out of the woodwork saying fittings are snake oil when topics like these come up. Of course they are snakeoil to these players, they are better than 99.98% of golfers that will ever play! Their swings are malleable in that they can get what they want. Even one player stated that they can shoot the same scores with their father's senior flex clubs IF they change their swing. That's the key about a fitting, you don't have to change a freaking thing about your swing! The clubs just work for you.

> >

> > I haven't lost any sleep over the guys who I have "swindled" out of thousands of dollars, who then email 3 weeks to a month later saying how they have slashed their handicaps by 8+ strokes and have boosted their FIR and GIR or made many more 1 putts than they ever had previously. Truthfully, I don't even lose sleep over the people who aren't thrilled with their equipment, as that is on me to fix. I know what I'm doing and why I pulled something for you. If it doesn't work outside but works amazing indoors, that's on you, not on me. I can't swing the club for you. I will "fix" it, but 9/10s there isn't anything to fix. The only people who really bother me are the one's who come back later with clubs that clearly perform but say something is wrong and want a refund. This is something we offer but again, 9/10x there is nothing wrong with the clubs and they just found it cheaper online and have buyer's remorse. I have no sympathy for that. We live in an information era, my business is to sell you clubs that work, and the best fitting club is that head + that shaft + that grip that is built by my extremely competent build team. If you get weak in the knees at the price and opt for OEM when a non-upgrade is working so well, I'm not guaranteeing any of it is going to work at that point. Since we live in an information era, it's on the buyer to be savvy of what things cost and what fits their budget. Not to come in for an $5k full bag, pay it, then get ticked at me later on for finding it at GG or PGASS for cheaper, when it has a different shaft or is a 2017 model vs 2019.

> >

> > As for the many comments about fitters not knowing anything apart from what's printed in a catalogue. Those are not good fitters. I don't give a crap what a head/shaft is supposed to do on paper, I give a crap what it does FOR YOU based on the weight, bend profile, and the way you load and unload a shaft. If reading specs online is so useful and better than a fitting, then tell me why I hit C-Tapers higher and with more spin than I do Modus 105s? I know why, but that catalogue sure as heck doesn't.

> >

> > As you guys can probably tell, I am a fitter so I have skin in the game. However, I challenge those that think fitting is hogwash to assess if they had a good fitting. For how populous the U.S. is, there sure are a heck of a lot of you that "don't have a good fitting place within 2-3 hours". I also wonder what you guys expect out of a fitting, based on the many emails my studio gets asking for free, complicated advice but balk when we offer a $20 phone consultation with a fitter. The expectations don't mesh with reality.

> >

> > As for the OP, looks like you did pretty well. The only issue is the Ventus and GP driver shafts are way different bend profiles and the G410 LST is a wildly different beast than the 400 series you bought. Are those going to show to you? Who knows, but *on paper* they would appear to be considerably different to the point that the results wouldn't even be comparable.

>

> When i started to write about club fitting i Denmark about 13 years ago, most of those who replied said the sticks dont matter, its all about talent....

> I invited a few of them to a "open house session", looked over and measured all their clubs for free, and let them hit all they wanted on my Trackman in my studio.

> 2 of them became of my best customers, one of them was a university teacher in physics,, he almost passed out when i showed him the weight i added and removed from the driver i made for him, it was 0.4 grams of lead tape. I later made his whole bag and even gave him "private education" in club making, so he does it all by himself now. i also had professional players who almost gave up the game, the mental pressure is silly high when you try to make a living of golf and feel like you want be able to hit the ball at all. With a HDCP 3 to 4 into the sunny side of the scale, its NOT a lack of talent, it was simply a bad "upgrade" of equipment they thought was right for them. Look into the buy and sale section, why is players selling almost new equipment? lack or talent or money? or was the fact that this clubs did not perform as they wanted them too? We have also seen those disappointed after spending 300 USD on a aftermarked shaft, only to find out, there is no "magic" built into any of them, its all about good or bad fit for the player. I will keep up replying and helping anyone who ask for help with their equipment, because i know im able to give them the help i could not find when i meet the wall myself. I was never a talented player, i started with Golf way to late in life, but loved this game from day one, and still do. When someone claims its all about talent....i want to use words that close my profile down, this folks has NO CLUE about what they are talking about. Even Tiger has changed equipment, he tried to play a driver shaft above 100 grams, what happen? we all know, and he changed again, now his back to a weight his body can handle and he wins again, so saying "we adapt" is simply far out, that only happens if specs is within reason of what they should be, if not the clubs will and up in the trade section, end of story.

 

Hey, I agree with you. Some of the biggest championers of our store are those who were initially very wary coming in. They'd had poor results in the past but just love equipment and were skeptical about how me, a stranger, is going to go about finding out what is best for them in 60-90 minutes. I'd say I still get a small handful per year of people who just don't get it. They fight you on everything (i.e. someone who swings just barely 80mph who wanted X flex iron shafts but shot down my suggestions)...but those aren't the people I'm overly concerned with...they think they have it figured out and are just one new, unfitted set away from shooting 75. When it's usually a little more complicated than that. However, the vast majority understand I'm there to help...and if I do something that isn't quite right, I'm always there to help fix it if necessary.

[TightStick]

> @WristySwing said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > i think this whole debate is plain out stupid.

> > Fitting is NOT a standardized concept, not even close.

> > There is good club fitters, and many bad ones.

> > The reason for why someone wants a fitting is not the same for all, and its not always isolated to improved scoring.

> > Some play only for fun, but its not funny to play clubs you struggle with.

> > Even the best players out there cant play "what ever", they need something that works for them to perform and make a living out if it.

> > The average player will benefit from fitting in general, for the simple reason, the numbers of options today is more than just a jungle, its a massive jungle hardly anyone has the full insight on.

> > If you feel fitting is overrated, fine, but please dont start debates like this, they helps absolutely nobody at all.

> > Ive been a member of this forum for about 10 years now, and have posted and replied close to 10.000 posts.

> > If it was not helpful for other players that i did so, i would have stopped long ago, just like i was advised to stop playing golf due to medical reason, but club fitting and correct fitted equipment makes it possible for me to keep playing. Those who thinks club fitting is overrated, has never been fitted right, but dont blame "fitting" for that, its not a standardized concept and never will be, and if club specs did not matter, this part of the forum would not exist, or died out for "natural reasons" very long time ago.

> >

> >

>

> Howard, this is so true. I have to laugh at all of these + handicaps coming out of the woodwork saying fittings are snake oil when topics like these come up. Of course they are snakeoil to these players, they are better than 99.98% of golfers that will ever play! Their swings are malleable in that they can get what they want. Even one player stated that they can shoot the same scores with their father's senior flex clubs IF they change their swing. That's the key about a fitting, you don't have to change a freaking thing about your swing! The clubs just work for you.

>

> I haven't lost any sleep over the guys who I have "swindled" out of thousands of dollars, who then email 3 weeks to a month later saying how they have slashed their handicaps by 8+ strokes and have boosted their FIR and GIR or made many more 1 putts than they ever had previously. Truthfully, I don't even lose sleep over the people who aren't thrilled with their equipment, as that is on me to fix. I know what I'm doing and why I pulled something for you. If it doesn't work outside but works amazing indoors, that's on you, not on me. I can't swing the club for you. I will "fix" it, but 9/10s there isn't anything to fix. The only people who really bother me are the one's who come back later with clubs that clearly perform but say something is wrong and want a refund. This is something we offer but again, 9/10x there is nothing wrong with the clubs and they just found it cheaper online and have buyer's remorse. I have no sympathy for that. We live in an information era, my business is to sell you clubs that work, and the best fitting club is that head + that shaft + that grip that is built by my extremely competent build team. If you get weak in the knees at the price and opt for OEM when a non-upgrade is working so well, I'm not guaranteeing any of it is going to work at that point. Since we live in an information era, it's on the buyer to be savvy of what things cost and what fits their budget. Not to come in for an $5k full bag, pay it, then get ticked at me later on for finding it at GG or PGASS for cheaper, when it has a different shaft or is a 2017 model vs 2019.

>

> As for the many comments about fitters not knowing anything apart from what's printed in a catalogue. Those are not good fitters. I don't give a crap what a head/shaft is supposed to do on paper, I give a crap what it does FOR YOU based on the weight, bend profile, and the way you load and unload a shaft. If reading specs online is so useful and better than a fitting, then tell me why I hit C-Tapers higher and with more spin than I do Modus 105s? I know why, but that catalogue sure as heck doesn't.

>

> As you guys can probably tell, I am a fitter so I have skin in the game. However, I challenge those that think fitting is hogwash to assess if they had a good fitting. For how populous the U.S. is, there sure are a heck of a lot of you that "don't have a good fitting place within 2-3 hours". I also wonder what you guys expect out of a fitting, based on the many emails my studio gets asking for free, complicated advice but balk when we offer a $20 phone consultation with a fitter. The expectations don't mesh with reality.

>

> As for the OP, looks like you did pretty well. The only issue is the Ventus and GP driver shafts are way different bend profiles and the G410 LST is a wildly different beast than the 400 series you bought. Are those going to show to you? Who knows, but *on paper* they would appear to be considerably different to the point that the results wouldn't even be comparable.

 

To clarify my point - I don't think fitting is "snake oil" - I think it is OVERRATED. The point about shooting good scores w/ my father's senior clubs is that people do have a tendency to adapt to what they are playing - not that they should! Of course everyone should be swinging a flex which suits their swing - with proper length and lie as well. Is a couple SW points going to matter to a golfer that can't find the middle of the club? Is the $350 upgraded shaft going to help a 20 handicap? May be extreme examples but I have witnessed people (my friends) drop thousands of $ to go from one regular flex shaft to another cause of a couple hundred RPMS. Is that really going to produce better scores? Get an idea of the flex you should be playing (even just going online to one of the shaft fitting websites) - find your length and lie and you should be alright. $ spend on lessons for the most part is better than $ spend fitting clubs to a swing which can use improvement.

 

Sorry for those that think this debate is "Stupid". You have your opinion - and I have mine - many times fitting is OVERRATED and people waste alot of money to realize this.

[third-times-a-charm]

Level 1: Buying clubs off the rack with whatever shafts

Level 2: Buying clubs after hitting multiple shafts in the big box store fitting carts/sims and seeing what works best from various 'other stock shafts'

Level 3: Buying a fitting and having an actual data analysis and having those clubs built

Level 4: Learning how to build your own clubs and pretending to buy clubs just to use the sims in the stores to get data

[WristySwing]

> @TightStick said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > i think this whole debate is plain out stupid.

> > > Fitting is NOT a standardized concept, not even close.

> > > There is good club fitters, and many bad ones.

> > > The reason for why someone wants a fitting is not the same for all, and its not always isolated to improved scoring.

> > > Some play only for fun, but its not funny to play clubs you struggle with.

> > > Even the best players out there cant play "what ever", they need something that works for them to perform and make a living out if it.

> > > The average player will benefit from fitting in general, for the simple reason, the numbers of options today is more than just a jungle, its a massive jungle hardly anyone has the full insight on.

> > > If you feel fitting is overrated, fine, but please dont start debates like this, they helps absolutely nobody at all.

> > > Ive been a member of this forum for about 10 years now, and have posted and replied close to 10.000 posts.

> > > If it was not helpful for other players that i did so, i would have stopped long ago, just like i was advised to stop playing golf due to medical reason, but club fitting and correct fitted equipment makes it possible for me to keep playing. Those who thinks club fitting is overrated, has never been fitted right, but dont blame "fitting" for that, its not a standardized concept and never will be, and if club specs did not matter, this part of the forum would not exist, or died out for "natural reasons" very long time ago.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Howard, this is so true. I have to laugh at all of these + handicaps coming out of the woodwork saying fittings are snake oil when topics like these come up. Of course they are snakeoil to these players, they are better than 99.98% of golfers that will ever play! Their swings are malleable in that they can get what they want. Even one player stated that they can shoot the same scores with their father's senior flex clubs IF they change their swing. That's the key about a fitting, you don't have to change a freaking thing about your swing! The clubs just work for you.

> >

> > I haven't lost any sleep over the guys who I have "swindled" out of thousands of dollars, who then email 3 weeks to a month later saying how they have slashed their handicaps by 8+ strokes and have boosted their FIR and GIR or made many more 1 putts than they ever had previously. Truthfully, I don't even lose sleep over the people who aren't thrilled with their equipment, as that is on me to fix. I know what I'm doing and why I pulled something for you. If it doesn't work outside but works amazing indoors, that's on you, not on me. I can't swing the club for you. I will "fix" it, but 9/10s there isn't anything to fix. The only people who really bother me are the one's who come back later with clubs that clearly perform but say something is wrong and want a refund. This is something we offer but again, 9/10x there is nothing wrong with the clubs and they just found it cheaper online and have buyer's remorse. I have no sympathy for that. We live in an information era, my business is to sell you clubs that work, and the best fitting club is that head + that shaft + that grip that is built by my extremely competent build team. If you get weak in the knees at the price and opt for OEM when a non-upgrade is working so well, I'm not guaranteeing any of it is going to work at that point. Since we live in an information era, it's on the buyer to be savvy of what things cost and what fits their budget. Not to come in for an $5k full bag, pay it, then get ticked at me later on for finding it at GG or PGASS for cheaper, when it has a different shaft or is a 2017 model vs 2019.

> >

> > As for the many comments about fitters not knowing anything apart from what's printed in a catalogue. Those are not good fitters. I don't give a crap what a head/shaft is supposed to do on paper, I give a crap what it does FOR YOU based on the weight, bend profile, and the way you load and unload a shaft. If reading specs online is so useful and better than a fitting, then tell me why I hit C-Tapers higher and with more spin than I do Modus 105s? I know why, but that catalogue sure as heck doesn't.

> >

> > As you guys can probably tell, I am a fitter so I have skin in the game. However, I challenge those that think fitting is hogwash to assess if they had a good fitting. For how populous the U.S. is, there sure are a heck of a lot of you that "don't have a good fitting place within 2-3 hours". I also wonder what you guys expect out of a fitting, based on the many emails my studio gets asking for free, complicated advice but balk when we offer a $20 phone consultation with a fitter. The expectations don't mesh with reality.

> >

> > As for the OP, looks like you did pretty well. The only issue is the Ventus and GP driver shafts are way different bend profiles and the G410 LST is a wildly different beast than the 400 series you bought. Are those going to show to you? Who knows, but *on paper* they would appear to be considerably different to the point that the results wouldn't even be comparable.

>

> To clarify my point - I don't think fitting is "snake oil" - I think it is OVERRATED. The point about shooting good scores w/ my father's senior clubs is that people do have a tendency to adapt to what they are playing - not that they should! Of course everyone should be swinging a flex which suits their swing - with proper length and lie as well. Is a couple SW points going to matter to a golfer that can't find the middle of the club? Is the $350 upgraded shaft going to help a 20 handicap? May be extreme examples but I have witnessed people (my friends) drop thousands of $ to go from one regular flex shaft to another cause of a couple hundred RPMS. Is that really going to produce better scores? Get an idea of the flex you should be playing (even just going online to one of the shaft fitting websites) - find your length and lie and you should be alright. $ spend on lessons for the most part is better than $ spend fitting clubs to a swing which can use improvement.

>

> Sorry for those that think this debate is "Stupid". You have your opinion - and I have mine - many times fitting is OVERRATED and people waste alot of money to realize this.

 

No, I don't think the debate is stupid. My rant surely didn't help my cause, but I think we are kinda-sorta on the same page. There is definitely an overrated aspect of a fitting. I, and fitters in general, can only do so much to influence and leverage a player's swing. The degree to which this leverage happens depends A LOT on the ability and the tools of the fitter. I used to fit at a big box store before I moved over to this boutique studio and the tools at my disposal are far greater. I stand behind my fits I did at BB but I have no disbelief that if those same people could have come through the studio instead of the big box that the fitting would have been so, so much better due to the data analytics available now vs. then. The rest comes down to the player. There are enough golfers in the world that just flat out stink and no equipment change is going to significantly impact that if they are already kinda-sorta in what they should be in. Maybe we are in the minority, but we have no reservations in telling people to go away and come back. I can't fit a garbage pass at the golf ball and I won't stick a huge bandaid on it and plug my ears and pretend it doesn't exist. I'd much rather lose the sale and potentially have someone come back while maintaining the integrity of myself and the shop vs. having someone become a revolving door of "this doesn't work, I want my money back/I want it changed"

 

 

[ChipNRun]

> @Ripken08 said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > I do agree it is often the Indian, not the bow and arrow but imagine how better the same Indian would be with a better fitted bow and arrow?

>

> How did golfers survive back in the day before fittings and tour vans? They ADAPTED just like Tiger.

 

Your basic idea that fitting did not exist before golf superstores and tour vans is **false.** Since the 1800s golfers have been able to get fittings - provided they had the money to hire and/or the luck to find a skilled clubsmith.

 

In the hickory era/pre WWI, clubsmiths were craftsmen who could design clubs for the individual golfers. When the steel shafts and standardized 2i-9i sets emerged, craftsmen clubsmiths took a hit as a profession, largely becoming assemblers rather than "makers".

 

Eventually, fitters noted shortfalls among the standardized clubs and found ways to tweak them. In the Palmer-Nicklaus era, fitters and pros developed tweaks such as fitting wedges with shafts tip-cut for 8i, and putting softer-flex shafts in 2i and 3i heads. This is softstepping, which along with hardstepping led to the path of flighted iron shafts. Primitive counterweighting emerged when stronger golfers such as Nicklaus put a lead fishing weight in the butt of their driver shaft so their swing wouldn't be so handsy.

 

From the 1930s through the 1980s, you could get custom fitting and tweaking **if you went to the right clubsmith.** In the 1980s Ping irons made their big push into golfdom. Starting with color-coded lie angles, Ping encouraged custom-fit the standard for buying clubs. Clubsmiths and fitters agree that custom lie angle was one of the biggest improvements in clubfitting since World War II.

 

Unfortunately, I played clear through the 1980s without being told that I needed irons made 2° flat so I wouldn't miss left frequently on solid shots. In 1994, my switch to new custom-fitted component irons with a flat lie cut six strokes off my game almost immediately.

 

So, people did more than "just adjust" in the pre-Ping era. Some were lucky enough to find skilled clubsmiths - often self-taught - who could adjust _clubs to golfer_, rather than _golfer to clubs._

 

It's the same today. Some fitters are skilled and conscientious, while other fitters are %#*!... **not.**

[Howard_Jones]

> @TightStick said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > i think this whole debate is plain out stupid.

> > > Fitting is NOT a standardized concept, not even close.

> > > There is good club fitters, and many bad ones.

> > > The reason for why someone wants a fitting is not the same for all, and its not always isolated to improved scoring.

> > > Some play only for fun, but its not funny to play clubs you struggle with.

> > > Even the best players out there cant play "what ever", they need something that works for them to perform and make a living out if it.

> > > The average player will benefit from fitting in general, for the simple reason, the numbers of options today is more than just a jungle, its a massive jungle hardly anyone has the full insight on.

> > > If you feel fitting is overrated, fine, but please dont start debates like this, they helps absolutely nobody at all.

> > > Ive been a member of this forum for about 10 years now, and have posted and replied close to 10.000 posts.

> > > If it was not helpful for other players that i did so, i would have stopped long ago, just like i was advised to stop playing golf due to medical reason, but club fitting and correct fitted equipment makes it possible for me to keep playing. Those who thinks club fitting is overrated, has never been fitted right, but dont blame "fitting" for that, its not a standardized concept and never will be, and if club specs did not matter, this part of the forum would not exist, or died out for "natural reasons" very long time ago.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Howard, this is so true. I have to laugh at all of these + handicaps coming out of the woodwork saying fittings are snake oil when topics like these come up. Of course they are snakeoil to these players, they are better than 99.98% of golfers that will ever play! Their swings are malleable in that they can get what they want. Even one player stated that they can shoot the same scores with their father's senior flex clubs IF they change their swing. That's the key about a fitting, you don't have to change a freaking thing about your swing! The clubs just work for you.

> >

> > I haven't lost any sleep over the guys who I have "swindled" out of thousands of dollars, who then email 3 weeks to a month later saying how they have slashed their handicaps by 8+ strokes and have boosted their FIR and GIR or made many more 1 putts than they ever had previously. Truthfully, I don't even lose sleep over the people who aren't thrilled with their equipment, as that is on me to fix. I know what I'm doing and why I pulled something for you. If it doesn't work outside but works amazing indoors, that's on you, not on me. I can't swing the club for you. I will "fix" it, but 9/10s there isn't anything to fix. The only people who really bother me are the one's who come back later with clubs that clearly perform but say something is wrong and want a refund. This is something we offer but again, 9/10x there is nothing wrong with the clubs and they just found it cheaper online and have buyer's remorse. I have no sympathy for that. We live in an information era, my business is to sell you clubs that work, and the best fitting club is that head + that shaft + that grip that is built by my extremely competent build team. If you get weak in the knees at the price and opt for OEM when a non-upgrade is working so well, I'm not guaranteeing any of it is going to work at that point. Since we live in an information era, it's on the buyer to be savvy of what things cost and what fits their budget. Not to come in for an $5k full bag, pay it, then get ticked at me later on for finding it at GG or PGASS for cheaper, when it has a different shaft or is a 2017 model vs 2019.

> >

> > As for the many comments about fitters not knowing anything apart from what's printed in a catalogue. Those are not good fitters. I don't give a crap what a head/shaft is supposed to do on paper, I give a crap what it does FOR YOU based on the weight, bend profile, and the way you load and unload a shaft. If reading specs online is so useful and better than a fitting, then tell me why I hit C-Tapers higher and with more spin than I do Modus 105s? I know why, but that catalogue sure as heck doesn't.

> >

> > As you guys can probably tell, I am a fitter so I have skin in the game. However, I challenge those that think fitting is hogwash to assess if they had a good fitting. For how populous the U.S. is, there sure are a heck of a lot of you that "don't have a good fitting place within 2-3 hours". I also wonder what you guys expect out of a fitting, based on the many emails my studio gets asking for free, complicated advice but balk when we offer a $20 phone consultation with a fitter. The expectations don't mesh with reality.

> >

> > As for the OP, looks like you did pretty well. The only issue is the Ventus and GP driver shafts are way different bend profiles and the G410 LST is a wildly different beast than the 400 series you bought. Are those going to show to you? Who knows, but *on paper* they would appear to be considerably different to the point that the results wouldn't even be comparable.

>

> To clarify my point - I don't think fitting is "snake oil" - I think it is OVERRATED. The point about shooting good scores w/ my father's senior clubs is that people do have a tendency to adapt to what they are playing - not that they should! Of course everyone should be swinging a flex which suits their swing - with proper length and lie as well. Is a couple SW points going to matter to a golfer that can't find the middle of the club? Is the $350 upgraded shaft going to help a 20 handicap? May be extreme examples but I have witnessed people (my friends) drop thousands of $ to go from one regular flex shaft to another cause of a couple hundred RPMS. Is that really going to produce better scores? Get an idea of the flex you should be playing (even just going online to one of the shaft fitting websites) - find your length and lie and you should be alright. $ spend on lessons for the most part is better than $ spend fitting clubs to a swing which can use improvement.

>

> Sorry for those that think this debate is "Stupid". You have your opinion - and I have mine - many times fitting is OVERRATED and people waste alot of money to realize this.

 

There is a huge difference between knowledge and opinions.

Take me as one example, im 6.0 close to 200 pounds, former freestyle elite skier (thats why i have a bad back today)

When my body works, i swing my driver 89-90 mph.

My transitions is smooth, but i have a aggressive downswing, but not a late release, its early to mid

What flex label should i use?

Is head weight of importance (you say a couple of SWP want help to find the middle of the face so i guess its not important), and what about shaft weight and balance point of the shaft?

By the way, i have 6-7 drivers, both R, S, X and 5.5 flex label, what would be the right one for me?

[SecondandGoal]

> @Ripken08 said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > > @Ripken08 said:

> > > Fitting IMO is pretty over rated. As humans, we adapt to our surroundings and in this case our equipment. Look at Brooke Henderson who uses a 48" driver. All of her clubs are over length and she chokes down. She learned to play with longer men's clubs and adapted. "Basic" fitting parameters such and length and lie I get. Especially for those tall or short players. That can be done statically almost. The rest is over rated....launch monitors, spin numbers, hitting off mats etc. A lot of people on here are OBSESSED with launch monitor numbers. Paralysis by analysis! I play with a +2 handicapper occasionally and he will go in the clubhouse and borrow demo clubs. Guess what, he hits them all the same! Length difference, flex difference etc...... It is the indian not the arrow and good players can use anything. Us mortal players can get by with static fittings for length and lie.

> >

> > When Tiger Woods was at his peak he always putted with the toe of his putter way up in the air. When asked about it, he said as a kid putters were to long for him so toe up was the way he learned to putt so a toe up putter looked natural to him. Should we all do this?

> >

> > I do agree it is often the Indian, not the bow and arrow but imagine how better the same Indian would be with a better fitted bow and arrow?

>

> How did golfers survive back in the day before fittings and tour vans? They ADAPTED just like Tiger.

 

So we should ignore new technology available to us just because people were previously able to get by without it? Do you still drive a Model T? Do you still use a rotary telephone?

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @SecondandGoal said:

> > @Ripken08 said:

> > > @JCAG said:

> > > > @Ripken08 said:

> > > > Fitting IMO is pretty over rated. As humans, we adapt to our surroundings and in this case our equipment. Look at Brooke Henderson who uses a 48" driver. All of her clubs are over length and she chokes down. She learned to play with longer men's clubs and adapted. "Basic" fitting parameters such and length and lie I get. Especially for those tall or short players. That can be done statically almost. The rest is over rated....launch monitors, spin numbers, hitting off mats etc. A lot of people on here are OBSESSED with launch monitor numbers. Paralysis by analysis! I play with a +2 handicapper occasionally and he will go in the clubhouse and borrow demo clubs. Guess what, he hits them all the same! Length difference, flex difference etc...... It is the indian not the arrow and good players can use anything. Us mortal players can get by with static fittings for length and lie.

> > >

> > > When Tiger Woods was at his peak he always putted with the toe of his putter way up in the air. When asked about it, he said as a kid putters were to long for him so toe up was the way he learned to putt so a toe up putter looked natural to him. Should we all do this?

> > >

> > > I do agree it is often the Indian, not the bow and arrow but imagine how better the same Indian would be with a better fitted bow and arrow?

> >

> > How did golfers survive back in the day before fittings and tour vans? They ADAPTED just like Tiger.

>

> So we should ignore new technology available to us just because people were previously able to get by without it? Do you still drive a Model T? Do you still use a rotary telephone?

>

 

Tiger could not adapt to play a 103 grams driver shaft, it took his back, so i guess it must have been a lack of talent? its always the indian you know....

[jholz]

I don't think that any reasonable or experienced golfer can treat fitting as an "absolute" either positive or negative. It's a much more nuanced and complicated subject than that, and as a result, decent opinions on the subject also have to be nuanced and complex.

 

In other words, it's tough to say that club fitting is complete and total rubbish. It's equally difficult to argue that it will completely revolutionize everyone's game. The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

Take my opinion on club fitting, for example. I sort-of believe in club fitting, and I sort-of don't.

 

I'll save all of you the long, nuanced explanation of what that means.

[TightStick]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @TightStick said:

> > > @WristySwing said:

> > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > i think this whole debate is plain out stupid.

> > > > Fitting is NOT a standardized concept, not even close.

> > > > There is good club fitters, and many bad ones.

> > > > The reason for why someone wants a fitting is not the same for all, and its not always isolated to improved scoring.

> > > > Some play only for fun, but its not funny to play clubs you struggle with.

> > > > Even the best players out there cant play "what ever", they need something that works for them to perform and make a living out if it.

> > > > The average player will benefit from fitting in general, for the simple reason, the numbers of options today is more than just a jungle, its a massive jungle hardly anyone has the full insight on.

> > > > If you feel fitting is overrated, fine, but please dont start debates like this, they helps absolutely nobody at all.

> > > > Ive been a member of this forum for about 10 years now, and have posted and replied close to 10.000 posts.

> > > > If it was not helpful for other players that i did so, i would have stopped long ago, just like i was advised to stop playing golf due to medical reason, but club fitting and correct fitted equipment makes it possible for me to keep playing. Those who thinks club fitting is overrated, has never been fitted right, but dont blame "fitting" for that, its not a standardized concept and never will be, and if club specs did not matter, this part of the forum would not exist, or died out for "natural reasons" very long time ago.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Howard, this is so true. I have to laugh at all of these + handicaps coming out of the woodwork saying fittings are snake oil when topics like these come up. Of course they are snakeoil to these players, they are better than 99.98% of golfers that will ever play! Their swings are malleable in that they can get what they want. Even one player stated that they can shoot the same scores with their father's senior flex clubs IF they change their swing. That's the key about a fitting, you don't have to change a freaking thing about your swing! The clubs just work for you.

> > >

> > > I haven't lost any sleep over the guys who I have "swindled" out of thousands of dollars, who then email 3 weeks to a month later saying how they have slashed their handicaps by 8+ strokes and have boosted their FIR and GIR or made many more 1 putts than they ever had previously. Truthfully, I don't even lose sleep over the people who aren't thrilled with their equipment, as that is on me to fix. I know what I'm doing and why I pulled something for you. If it doesn't work outside but works amazing indoors, that's on you, not on me. I can't swing the club for you. I will "fix" it, but 9/10s there isn't anything to fix. The only people who really bother me are the one's who come back later with clubs that clearly perform but say something is wrong and want a refund. This is something we offer but again, 9/10x there is nothing wrong with the clubs and they just found it cheaper online and have buyer's remorse. I have no sympathy for that. We live in an information era, my business is to sell you clubs that work, and the best fitting club is that head + that shaft + that grip that is built by my extremely competent build team. If you get weak in the knees at the price and opt for OEM when a non-upgrade is working so well, I'm not guaranteeing any of it is going to work at that point. Since we live in an information era, it's on the buyer to be savvy of what things cost and what fits their budget. Not to come in for an $5k full bag, pay it, then get ticked at me later on for finding it at GG or PGASS for cheaper, when it has a different shaft or is a 2017 model vs 2019.

> > >

> > > As for the many comments about fitters not knowing anything apart from what's printed in a catalogue. Those are not good fitters. I don't give a crap what a head/shaft is supposed to do on paper, I give a crap what it does FOR YOU based on the weight, bend profile, and the way you load and unload a shaft. If reading specs online is so useful and better than a fitting, then tell me why I hit C-Tapers higher and with more spin than I do Modus 105s? I know why, but that catalogue sure as heck doesn't.

> > >

> > > As you guys can probably tell, I am a fitter so I have skin in the game. However, I challenge those that think fitting is hogwash to assess if they had a good fitting. For how populous the U.S. is, there sure are a heck of a lot of you that "don't have a good fitting place within 2-3 hours". I also wonder what you guys expect out of a fitting, based on the many emails my studio gets asking for free, complicated advice but balk when we offer a $20 phone consultation with a fitter. The expectations don't mesh with reality.

> > >

> > > As for the OP, looks like you did pretty well. The only issue is the Ventus and GP driver shafts are way different bend profiles and the G410 LST is a wildly different beast than the 400 series you bought. Are those going to show to you? Who knows, but *on paper* they would appear to be considerably different to the point that the results wouldn't even be comparable.

> >

> > To clarify my point - I don't think fitting is "snake oil" - I think it is OVERRATED. The point about shooting good scores w/ my father's senior clubs is that people do have a tendency to adapt to what they are playing - not that they should! Of course everyone should be swinging a flex which suits their swing - with proper length and lie as well. Is a couple SW points going to matter to a golfer that can't find the middle of the club? Is the $350 upgraded shaft going to help a 20 handicap? May be extreme examples but I have witnessed people (my friends) drop thousands of $ to go from one regular flex shaft to another cause of a couple hundred RPMS. Is that really going to produce better scores? Get an idea of the flex you should be playing (even just going online to one of the shaft fitting websites) - find your length and lie and you should be alright. $ spend on lessons for the most part is better than $ spend fitting clubs to a swing which can use improvement.

> >

> > Sorry for those that think this debate is "Stupid". You have your opinion - and I have mine - many times fitting is OVERRATED and people waste alot of money to realize this.

>

> There is a huge difference between knowledge and opinions.

> Take me as one example, im 6.0 close to 200 pounds, former freestyle elite skier (thats why i have a bad back today)

> When my body works, i swing my driver 89-90 mph.

> My transitions is smooth, but i have a aggressive downswing, but not a late release, its early to mid

> What flex label should i use?

> Is head weight of importance (you say a couple of SWP want help to find the middle of the face so i guess its not important), and what about shaft weight and balance point of the shaft?

> By the way, i have 6-7 drivers, both R, S, X and 5.5 flex label, what would be the right one for me?

 

It's my opinion - your scores probably wouldn't fluctuate that much no matter which of the 6 - 7 drivers you select to play. It would be more dependent on how you are swinging that particular day/time period and your short game/putting. If you took those same 6-7 drivers and put them on a trackman 5 separate days/time - I would be willing to bet the same exact driver would not come out (on paper) on top every time - especially if you are a 20+ handicap. Please let me know if you disagree - I am here to learn

 

Again - I am not trying to imply fitting doesn't have merit or shouldn't be done - it absolutely should. It's my opinion - however - it's overrated and taken way too far by many. I have personally spent thousands of dollars on fittings only to realize this very thing. It's also my opinion this debate is not "plain out stupid"

[Howard_Jones]

Since you are asking, and willing to learn, they are all the same flex when we measure them, but labels is different, because there is no industry standard for how strong a certain flex label is.

Back in the days of Hickory it was "Goose" who was the strongest "Falcon" the weakest (they measure load in ibs) , while today, all this labels tells us is where that shaft belongs in its own model family of shafts.

My X flex is a Grafalloy Booyah, it belongs to a "soft to flex" model series, my favorite is Grafalloy ProLaunch AXIS RED as R flex, but they both play to FCM 4.9 to 5.1 with about the same deflection.

 

Thats maybe the largest problem with Golf equipment, the most common standard is, there is no common standard, and when focus is on flex labels thinking "S" could be compared to "S" in a different models, we made mistake nr 1, and that happens way to often. " As examples, my Booyah X flex is SOFTER than Grafalloy Blue (white) as R flex, and TT XP 115 R flex is stronger than TT XP 95 S flex, so the flex labels ONLY belong to that model and weight series....just like PX...standard PX 5.0 is stronger than PX LZ 6.0...

'

Flex itself is mostly a "trigger" for how much power the player will put on that shaft. Like most of you have said, "we adapt" and thats correct enough, so if a shaft feels stronger than the players preference, he will speed up his tempo and load it harder to make it feel right. Sometimes thats a good thing, other times its bad, it all depend on they players swing now, so i used club specs to trigger the players swing into a swing that made him perform to his best. Its not good if we are too slow and "not committed" to the swing we shall do, but its no good if the player feels that he has to give it the whole arm before the shaft feels and works right. So even if less than 1 out of 10 player will see ball flight differences from the shaft profile (Low-mid or high launch), we must never underestimate what FEEL itself does to the player and his swing.

 

My advice for shafts is simple, we must always start with weight and balance point, then try off different flex options and overlook what label that is. If its weak, try one label stronger, if feels demanding and stiff, go softer. When we have found weight and what feels good, look at dispersion both length and side ways. If we have a LM we can pay attention to variables on dynamic loft, path and face closing, and off-cause, ALWAYS pay attention to where on the face we make impact. Way to many club fitters have their head buried in the launch monitor itself, and dont pay enough attention to what the actual club did to the players swing, and thats where the good vs the "not so good club fitters makes a difference.

 

About head weight (NOT SW values). When we swing the club to the top and start transition, its feel of shaft weight who tells the player what angle the shaft has, and to little or wrong balance point might make it hard for him to know when he shall stop and turn.(over-swing) During the transition itself its feel of head weight that delivers the needed resistance. Thats why both shaft and head weight is of highly importance for navigation of the club who leads to a good or bad impact. TOTAL weight is a parameter thats very overlooked but #2 in importance for the club. Many players experience that a high total weight might improve impact, but if we overdo it, it will drain the player for power, so before the round is over he starts doing mistakes when his energy level becomes to low. FLEX is part of that, if we trigger him to much (speeding him up to much) he will run out of power too soon. We must also pay attention to the players release timing. A early release player ADDs resistance the way he swing the club, so even "light" could be heavy for him.

 

Depending on how advanced we should make it, there is a few or a tons of parameters, but i always started in the players end with the grip as the first....we CANT make a good fitting using standard grip to a player who plays mid size or jumbo, and thats not only about size itself, but how the weight of the grip makes a influence on both total weight and the clubs balance point...

 

So, the right club fitter who knows what he is doing can improve the clubs for most players, but how much depend on how good the clubs he got now works, not only during a test session, but over a full round.

If we have some clubs that works good, and other that dont, "swing of the day" might change between what works good and what clubs that dont, and "swing flaws" caused by adjustments to some clubs is often transferred to other clubs who actually works good and thats a common problem in most "average players bags". If we are honest with ourselves and only bring the clubs we fully trust, we would often play a better round of Golf even if it was only 5 or 6 clubs in the bag instead of all 14.

[YoungJedi]

> @Popeye64 said:

> I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

 

I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

 

Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

[Popeye64]

> @YoungJedi said:

> > @Popeye64 said:

> > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

>

> I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

>

> Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

 

That's entirely different. If I walk into a shop and get fit but do not purchase irons or a driver i fully understand I'm paying for that fitting. What ever that fee is I have made that agreement ahead of time

I certainly dont support someone going in to get fit for free and then buy elsewhere. But for myself if I got fit and then paid for a full set of irons at double retail in most cases I wouldnt be able to sleep at night for weeks.

So my point is.. compensate someone for thier time.

If a fitter isnt getting any money without a sale I would certainly give him a very sizable tip over what the shop charged me.

[WristySwing]

> @YoungJedi said:

> > @Popeye64 said:

> > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

>

> I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

>

> Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

 

As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

 

If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

 

@Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

[ckay]

If you haven’t been for, it’s worth the experiment. From there you can generally fit yourself reasonably well unless you need the very best numbers with each change in your bag.

[TimK1]

In my post above, I stated that I have never been fit for clubs. I don't believe it does not help some people. I have never had to be fitted. I have played stand length, lie my whole life. When I got better I went to a stiff shaft but honestly, hitting a regular flex or stiff flex didn't really do anything for my game. I have been a 2 handicap for most of my adult life.

 

With that said, My nature is minimal, to begin with. The more information I have the more it confuses me. I don't need to know my smash factor and all the other numbers. I hit the ball, it goes where I want and with a decent amount of distance. That's all I really need to know.

I have found though that most of the guys I have run across that usually want this type of thing are guys who basically suck and are looking for some magic bullet to cure there swing. I have watched guys get fitted who had terrible swings. No amount of fitting will help these guys until they learn how to swing. People are lazy by nature. They don't want to put in the hard work to get better. Look at the diet industry. Everybody wants a pill or some magic formula to lose weight. They don't want to just eat good, exercise.

 

I do believe fitting's help some players. Tiger himself is a big advocate for fitting. He's talented enough though to know the differences and his swing is dialed into where he knows what works for him. Most guys on a basic recreational level are in denial. They think they hit the ball further than they do or are better than they really are. Or that somehow getting fitted will magically make them better.

 

I think most of us if we were honest with ourselves would not make the mistakes or spend all this crazy money to keep looking for some magic formula.

 

If you get to the point where you are decent. maybe mid or lower 80's then I think it can help to get you to a different level but we still have to do the work and practice. If you are upper 80's or above then I really don't believe fitting will help all that much at this point.

[Popeye64]

> @WristySwing said:

> > @YoungJedi said:

> > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> >

> > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> >

> > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

>

> As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

>

> If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

>

> @Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

 

If I walk into your shop or any customer for that matter.. Clearly state I would like to get fit for a shaft or club head but do not intend to buy from you... You should tell me right there .. No thank you. Take your business elsewhere. You stating that you would intentionally fit someone into gear that you know they cant find... I'll save my comment. All you have to do is say no thank you.

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @WristySwing said:

> > @YoungJedi said:

> > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> >

> > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> >

> > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

>

> As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

>

> If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

 

 

> @Popeye64 said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @YoungJedi said:

> > > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> > >

> > > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> > >

> > > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

> >

> > As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

> >

> > If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

> >

> > @Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

>

> If I walk into your shop or any customer for that matter.. Clearly state I would like to get fit for a shaft or club head but do not intend to buy from you... You should tell me right there .. No thank you. Take your business elsewhere. You stating that you would intentionally fit someone into gear that you know they cant find... I'll save my comment. All you have to do is say no thank you.

 

And people wonder why fitters aren't always trusted...

[Sean2]

> @jholz said:

> I always find it interesting in these threads how no one is ever fit into a Aldila NV or a TT DG S300. It's always Project X LZ, Rogue MSI, Oban, GD ADsomething, Accra, KBS $-Taper, or other expensive exotic.

>

> If you really look at flex profiles and playing characteristics, there is always a cheaper option to the exotic that performs and plays pretty much the same.

 

Yes, you can get a great bottle of wine for $200...you can also get a great bottle for $20.

 

 

[WristySwing]

> @Popeye64 said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @YoungJedi said:

> > > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> > >

> > > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> > >

> > > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

> >

> > As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

> >

> > If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

> >

> > @Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

>

> If I walk into your shop or any customer for that matter.. Clearly state I would like to get fit for a shaft or club head but do not intend to buy from you... You should tell me right there .. No thank you. Take your business elsewhere. You stating that you would intentionally fit someone into gear that you know they cant find... I'll save my comment. All you have to do is say no thank you.

 

No. I would say, okay let's see what we can do. And fit you. If an upgrade works better, great I'm not going to sugar coat it and tell you okay well since you're not buying from me you should definitely just get whatever you can find. I'll say go get the heads and I'll reshaft them for you. At that point I've done my job and given you an improvement. If an upgraded shaft doesn't work better, even better. Then you're likely to find it used elsewhere. I'm still giving you the quote for what it costs free from the OEM. Like I said, if I know someone is coming in and they are adament about spending a $100 for a shaft or something, I have no qualms about informing them over the phone or email before they come in that maybe this isn't the place they should be coming as our cheapest shaft is $210 + grip + the $100 fit fee. Some are fine coming in anyway and then try and find the cheapest closest component online, hence the 15 posts a week here about "got fit for x, but have budget for y".

 

As I said in my post, if you are honest with me about your budget (apart from the extreme example above), I will work within that budget. Have $400 to spend on a driver and the M6 and Blueboard works well? I'll try and sell you a demo M4 and a C6 Blue. Looking for iron reshafts and you can't spend $95 per shaft installed for Modus? Well, I just so happen to have a dump truck full of Modus 120 pulls laying around that I can do for $200 + grips. If you're honest, I'll work with you. It goes two ways. If you're dishonest with me about your budget and just say fit me, you're going to get a poor fit because you won't be able to afford the components.

 

So in sum, no, I won't turn you away. I will try both free and upgraded components but I'm not going to purposely go out of my way to fit you to something that you can easily buy elsewhere. I'm a business too don't forget, I need to pay my employees, my rent, utilities, and operating costs too. $500 a day in fit fees doesn't get you very far and realistically, you had no intention of buying from me in the first place, so what difference does it make if I fit you for component X that I can get vs component Y that is easy to get if you aren't planning on ever spending a dime in my shop apart from a fit fee anyways?

[WristySwing]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @YoungJedi said:

> > > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> > >

> > > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> > >

> > > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

> >

> > As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

> >

> > If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

>

>

> > @Popeye64 said:

> > > @WristySwing said:

> > > > @YoungJedi said:

> > > > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> > > >

> > > > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> > > >

> > > > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

> > >

> > > As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

> > >

> > > If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

> > >

> > > @Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

> >

> > If I walk into your shop or any customer for that matter.. Clearly state I would like to get fit for a shaft or club head but do not intend to buy from you... You should tell me right there .. No thank you. Take your business elsewhere. You stating that you would intentionally fit someone into gear that you know they cant find... I'll save my comment. All you have to do is say no thank you.

>

> And people wonder why fitters aren't always trusted...

 

Let me use another analogy. Do you go into an Audi dealership knowing full well you are in the market for a Jetta? What good is it for that salesperson to show you all the features of the A6 when 85% of the upgrades aren't available in the Jetta? If you walk into my shop and tell me "fit me". I will do just that with no budget constraints. If you hit Shimada and Fujikura Evolution fantastic, guess what is going on that quote? As I said though, if you're honest with me and say you have a realistic budget of X, I will do my best to hit X.

 

Putting it another way, I can't fit you for used equipment with a different shaft. How am I supposed to know if a 2014 Apex with XP95s is going to work when I fit you for 2019 Apex and Nippon 950? Two completely different shafts and different head tech. I don't even know why this argument of getting fit for X and then going to buy Y is a even an argument. You're not getting fit for that equipment at the end of the day anyways, so why not save the $100 and just go to the used rack at your local GG or PGASS and do that for free? It'll be a more beneficial endeavour than getting fit for clubs someone has no intention of buying in the first place (through me or elsewhere).

 

As I said in my post, if you are honest with me regarding budget I can help you if there is some interest in buying from me. If you come to me and right out of the gate say I'm not buying from you I only support my club...well there's not much point in me really trying to help you is there outside of showing you what works, right? So that's when maybe you get fit for Hot Metals with Accra 70s...it clearly works in here, and you can get the shafts through me. Not my fault your pro can't find them, is it? Again using another analogy, if you went out on a date with someone and the first thing out of there mouth is "I've already met someone I really like I'm just doing this to be nice," there isn't much incentive to put your best foot forward and wow them is there?

[Popeye64]

> @WristySwing said:

> > @Popeye64 said:

> > > @WristySwing said:

> > > > @YoungJedi said:

> > > > > @Popeye64 said:

> > > > > I see nothing wrong with paying someone for thier time to fit you. Then going out on your own and purchasing clubs to the specs that you were fit for. He earned his money for the time and knowledge he used for your fitting.

> > > > > So I see no problem with you saving money on the same setup purchased elsewhere.

> > > >

> > > > I find this logic to be flawed. At least where I worked previously, I received nothing from the “fitting fee.” I was only paid a small commission off of net sales after tax.

> > > >

> > > > Fitting fees are used to keep the lights on; IE operating costs like the trackman, rent, utilities, etc.

> > >

> > > As do I, I feel like if the person did the job correctly then they should be "rewarded" (for lack of a better term) with the sale. Buying used aside, I don't see why the person who did all the work got you hitting it great gets paid $100 and then some rando-pro who sits behind the desk taking tee times and folds shirts or a local big box store employee who couldn't tell you the difference between a Nippon 950 or a Modus 130 should get the sale and look good in front of their manager. It doesn't make sense to me. Again, I am super biased because I work in this industry but it really bugs when I do the fit, I hit their budget and give them massive improvement, and they turn around say "I'm buying from my pro". GTFOH. Yes you paid me $100, but that doesn't go very far if all I get each is day is $500 from fit fees when I have a $30k+ camera to pay for, 3-4 employees, projector, light, heat, shafts, and demo heads that are junked after because I need to cut the hosels off to get the adapters to fit. I also need to buy golf balls because once I do a wedge fitting the balls are chewed and I need to buy a new box.

> > >

> > > If I know ahead of time that someone is only buying from their pro or only wants to buy second-hand product pulls, you bet you I'm fitting them into the impossible to find stuff. Is it dishonest? Maybe. But I did show them an improvement, it's not my fault they aren't going for it. I can get it for them so it's not like they can't buy it from me. On the flip side, if someone comes in being honest that they don't have a big budget I have absolutely no problem whatsoever sticking to the cheaper options, selling pulls I know I have, or sticking to no charge upgrades. I might show them that an upgraded shaft is that much better, but I will fit them into something free and do a darn good job at it and they can buy them at no extra cost from me.

> > >

> > > @Popeye64 then buy OEM from the fitter. There isn't a single fitter on the planet that can't get OEM builds if they carry the product. There's no reason to walk and get them elsewhere if you have full intention of paying retail cost and your fitter did a good job. Zero.

> >

> > If I walk into your shop or any customer for that matter.. Clearly state I would like to get fit for a shaft or club head but do not intend to buy from you... You should tell me right there .. No thank you. Take your business elsewhere. You stating that you would intentionally fit someone into gear that you know they cant find... I'll save my comment. All you have to do is say no thank you.

>

> No. I would say, okay let's see what we can do. And fit you. If an upgrade works better, great I'm not going to sugar coat it and tell you okay well since you're not buying from me you should definitely just get whatever you can find. I'll say go get the heads and I'll reshaft them for you. At that point I've done my job and given you an improvement. If an upgraded shaft doesn't work better, even better. Then you're likely to find it used elsewhere. I'm still giving you the quote for what it costs free from the OEM. Like I said, if I know someone is coming in and they are adament about spending a $100 for a shaft or something, I have no qualms about informing them over the phone or email before they come in that maybe this isn't the place they should be coming as our cheapest shaft is $210 + grip + the $100 fit fee. Some are fine coming in anyway and then try and find the cheapest closest component online, hence the 15 posts a week here about "got fit for x, but have budget for y".

>

> As I said in my post, if you are honest with me about your budget (apart from the extreme example above), I will work within that budget. Have $400 to spend on a driver and the M6 and Blueboard works well? I'll try and sell you a demo M4 and a C6 Blue. Looking for iron reshafts and you can't spend $95 per shaft installed for Modus? Well, I just so happen to have a dump truck full of Modus 120 pulls laying around that I can do for $200 + grips. If you're honest, I'll work with you. It goes two ways. If you're dishonest with me about your budget and just say fit me, you're going to get a poor fit because you won't be able to afford the components.

>

> So in sum, no, I won't turn you away. I will try both free and upgraded components but I'm not going to purposely go out of my way to fit you to something that you can easily buy elsewhere. I'm a business too don't forget, I need to pay my employees, my rent, utilities, and operating costs too. $500 a day in fit fees doesn't get you very far and realistically, you had no intention of buying from me in the first place, so what difference does it make if I fit you for component X that I can get vs component Y that is easy to get if you aren't planning on ever spending a dime in my shop apart from a fit fee anyways?

 

Its mind boggling to me why you as a business owner would not want to give someone a true and honest fitting no matter what I told you my budget was. In reality I may be sitting on $3k just waiting for the Holy grail of golf clubs... I walked in for a fitting and you took my Fee.

Let's say in my fitting I settle into an off the shelf standard loft and lie with the most basic of shaft. Then you telling that customer that this is what you should be playing. I have to be honest with you,, you should buy them right off the shelf.. Or possibly he falls into the spectrum of playing PXG heads with Accra shafts, after a massive improvement you give him your honest assessment of what he should be playing. Either way you have treated that customer with respect and given him an honest fitting. You were compensated for your hour, or two hours whatever you allotted time/fee was. This is assuming you had an open hour for the booking. Thus that time during the business day was spent making some sort of money. Last I knew, $100+ per hour was pretty good.

That customer leaves and tells every one of his buddies what an amazing experience he had and how honest the shop was in that he didnt need any set of clubs at twice retail. Now you have a customer for life and the rest of his crew are now looking at your shop to do business with.

Give that same customer a truly half hearted experience and he will tell that same crowd how you treated him with disrespect and scoffed at his not wanting to spend 2500 on a set of magically assembled irons.

You obviously seem to have more clients than you need.