Retrieve OB balls or...

[bcjim]

I believe, in the US, courts have often (mostly?) held that golfers are NOT responsible for unintentional damage.  And putting an ominous sounding sign up (as many courses do) does not change that.

 

Consider that if you are a paying customer at a business, you have a reasonable expectation that the business is providing a setting suitable for the activity you are paying for. Errant shots are a regular and expected part of golf.

 

Its not uncommon for courses to erect large nets along roads, around ranges, etc and they do this because they actually know they cannot actually pass off liability to golfers. If they could, they'd just put a sign up. A lot cheaper.

 

Now as to whether the course has liability for houses being hit is another question. I suspect in many places the sales contract has a clause that says the home buyer agrees the course is not liable.

[Mr. Bean]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:09 PM, Augster said:

Anyone voting no is being hypocritical and I’ll prove it right here.

As the example above. You have your cell phone in the cart cup holder going along the OB line. You take a turn, it falls out, and the back tire tosses the phone 30 feet past the OB line into a guy’s yard.

You’re not going to get a $1000 phone? I don’t believe that for 1 second.

So we’ve proven that everyone will go into the yard. The only thing negotiable is price. A $3 ball is a little different from a $1000 phone. But it’s the exact same moral dilemma. The ball is mine. The phone is mine. Just because it’s accidentally on someone else’s property doesn’t make it theirs. I’m retrieving the ball and I’m retrieving the phone. Exact same principle.

 

I wonder if you have thought of the option of asking for a permission..? Nothing hypocritical in that.

[Mr. Bean]

47 minutes ago, bcjim said:

I believe, in the US, courts have often (mostly?) held that golfers are NOT responsible for unintentional damage.  And putting an ominous sounding sign up (as many courses do) does not change that.

 

Consider that if you are a paying customer at a business, you have a reasonable expectation that the business is providing a setting suitable for the activity you are paying for. Errant shots are a regular and expected part of golf.

 

Its not uncommon for courses to erect large nets along roads, around ranges, etc and they do this because they actually know they cannot actually pass off liability to golfers. If they could, they'd just put a sign up. A lot cheaper.

 

Now as to whether the course has liability for houses being hit is another question. I suspect in many places the sales contract has a clause that says the home buyer agrees the course is not liable.

 

Here in Finland every course has an insurance covering unintentional incidents and damage caused by a player playing on the course. Not only that, all the players have their own insurance linked with a membership or with the green fee, should a person not have a membership (extremely rare not to have one in Finland).

 

Now, in the case of an accident it is only the question of whose insurance is going to be used as that party will have to pay for the deductible, which for a player would be something like 50-100 euros and for the course much more. Thus the course often tries to blame the player even though the course is responsible to save some money. A typical example is a ball hitting a parked car. If the ball is hit from within the course and the incident is unintentional it is a clear cut case of the course responsibility.

[Nels55]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

I recall a story about a ball hit out of bounds and through a picture window, with the ball ending up in the owner's living room.  The owner called the general manager of the club to seek damages.  The general manager asked if the owner had the ball.  "Of course, it was in my living room," said the owner. The GM asked if the owner would bring the ball to the club; owner did so.  The next Men's night, the GM went to a table of members and asked if anyone recognized this ball and its markings.  One member said, "Yes, that's mine."  The GM said that Mr. ### would like to speak with you about his window and provided the name and phone number of the owner.

LOL the only problem with that scenario for me is that I lose a lot of golf balls and other people find them and play them all the time...  I had a case where a guy in an adjoining fairway played my ball because he was playing one of my balls that he had found and once we got it sorted out he said "What are the odds of the two of us playing balls marked the same like that"?  Well, pretty good in my case...  And yes I am working on improving my swing and losing fewer balls but it is a tight course with a lot of natural areas for balls to hide in.  I do sometimes get balls back because a lot of guys know what my marking looks like which is a good thing, I do the same if I find someone's ball and I recognize the marking. 

[TourSpoon]

The last time I hit OB there was a 4 foot chain link fence. The owner was on a ride-on mower and coming around to the back when I spotted my ball. I waved him to stop and told him that I believe that my ball was in his backyard, and I didn't want him to damage his mower by running it over. He turned it off and thanked me, gave me the ProV1x back, and then asked me if I wanted the other 3 he had from today. He is on a par 5 on the right side about 230 from the tee and said that its all part of the deal. 

 

So I will not hop fences, but I may use a pole to grab something close. No fence and I will walk a couple of feet if it is obviously sitting up and visible. It is about respect and common sense. Guys that cross the white stakes in golf carts deserve the grief they get. 

[MaccaRayDudley]

22 hours ago, rogolf said:

Would the same apply to a child's frisbee or soccer ball?

I wouldn’t march into my neighbors yard uninvited  to retrieve a soccer ball or a frisbee either.  I’d knock on their front door and politely ask them either to return the item or allow me to retrieve it myself.  It’s a matter of respecting others and their property.

[brew4eagle]

11 hours ago, MaccaRayDudley said:

I wouldn’t march into my neighbors yard uninvited  to retrieve a soccer ball or a frisbee either.  I’d knock on their front door and politely ask them either to return the item or allow me to retrieve it myself.  It’s a matter of respecting others and their property.

Might be a regional thing.  Wouldn't think twice about retrieving a soccer ball or frisbee, nor would I do a double take if neighbor was in my yard doing the same.

[Girevik]

If I can see my ball from inbounds I will go a few feet onto the property to grab it (assuming no fence), or reach through a fence if I can reach it with a club or a retriever.  I would never go 1/2 way to the house from OB, nor would I search on the property....just a quick dash and grab if I see it.  If I had a house on a course I would have no problem with any golfer doing the same, and if I had a problem with people stepping foot on my yard I'd put up a fence.

 

In my state, I have heard that golfers are not liable to damage to houses despite the signage at most courses.  Courts have ruled that golf ball damage is a risk you assume purchasing a house on a golf course.

[BigRB]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:53 PM, Colin L said:

That story points up the individual's responsibility for having mishit his ball and damaged adjacent property in contrast to the implied lack in much of this thread  of a sense of responsibility for hitting a golf ball into someone's property, a ball  which can do material damage and cause serious  injury - even kill. And what comes through from some contributions is a remarkable  sense of entitlement to march into someone else's back garden to retrieve the missile that could have done the damage. 

 

You hack a golf ball into someone's garden and it's their lookout for having a garden there, for having bought a house next to a golf course? Really?  Is that what an American court would say?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm chiming in here as a non-golfer who lives next to a golf course. There are two legal issues here ... and then there is common sense and courtesy. The first legal issue is trespass to land. The following is quoted directly from the website FindLaw.com: "Trespass to land occurs when a person intentionally enters someone else’s property without permission. The only intent required for this claim, is the intent to enter the property. So even if your neighbors accidently cross from their property into your lot, they can be liable for trespass. A trespass can also occur if someone causes a physical item, like a golf ball, to enter your property. Substantial injury is not required." They go on to say, "In some states, such as California, annoyance and discomfort are enough to establish trespass to land."

Our property is separated from the golf course by 18" diameter concrete posts about 3' high and spaced about 15' apart supporting a white chain running the full length of the border. This very clearly marks the border without blocking our view of the course.

I happen to live in California, and am not usually annoyed by golfers coming onto our property to retrieve a ball. In fact, on several occasions, I have tossed a ball back to a golfer when it was so close to my home that he/she obviously didn't want to come closer to get it, and I have also pointed out where a ball was so that they could retrieve it. I am, however, annoyed when they bring a club and proceed to play the ball where it lies. Even then, if I see them soon enough, I don't say anything until they actually take a stance, making it obvious what their intention is. My standard statement to them is, "We'd appreciate it if you would pick up the ball and keep your play in bounds on the course." Usually that is all that is needed, but I have had a few either glare back at me, or a couple of times just ignore me completely and go ahead and hit. There have also been a few smart remarks made.

The second issue is a legal doctrine known as assumption of risk. In answer to Colin's question, American courts have been very consistent in ruling that when you buy a house on a golf course, you do assume the risk of damage from an errant ball. Balls have hit our condo several times, including windows (which have proven pretty resilient thus far), and I've never said a word to a golfer who was responsible. By the same token, not a one of them has ever offered an apology. On a couple of occasions the entire group has grabbed their balls off the course and sped on to the next hole.

I don't know how or when California courts might tackle the discrepancies between these two doctrines. I guess it would have to come up in an actual case

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by BigRB

[Girevik]

I totally don't  understand playing the ball from OB.  If you're going to violate the rules by playing it, why not violate them by dropping back in bounds and play from there?

[Warrior42111]

I'm pretty common sense on these issues

 

1. Never play a ball from someone's yard

2. If driving by and it's close I'll grab my ball (not a man hunt throughout the lawn)

 

As for those who complain about their house being hit on a person walking and grabbing a ball a couple feet away, either build a fence or move away from a golf course. What did you think was going to happen?

[DaveLeeNC]

I played once with a guy who lived on a pretty high end course - off to the right side of a par 4 fairway about where typical drives land. He said that he normally ignores folks who go into his yard to retrieve balls. But when the course hosts a corporate event (and the event typically supplies a sleeve or two of ProV1's) he puts up No Trespassing signs. He says that he has not bought a golf ball since he moved into his current home. 

 

dave

[Newby]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:55 PM, Warrior42111 said:

 What did you think was going to happen?

And what if the house and yard were there before the course was built?

[Warrior42111]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:12 AM, Newby said:

And what if the house and yard were there before the course was built?

Then they have a legitimate complaint and should work with the course to remedy it via netting, signage, etc.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Warrior42111 said:

Then they have a legitimate complaint and should work with the course to remedy it via netting, signage, etc.

 

And you honestly believe it would help? With what legitimate rights? Who gave those rights to them and when?

 

If you live next to a golf course you just have to accept it or relocate. I just cannot understand this discussion as the answer is so simple.

[Warrior42111]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And you honestly believe it would help? With what legitimate rights? Who gave those rights to them and when?

 

If you live next to a golf course you just have to accept it or relocate. I just cannot understand this discussion as the answer is so simple.

Just to clarify, I was referring to getting your house hit and complaining. Also I can only speak for the US and really only the states I lived in.

 

But usually if the course was there first, the person golfing isn't responsible, unless you can prove it was done with malice, it's the known risk of deciding to live on the golf course. Where I've seen home owners with rights as to liability is when the course came after. Therefore the property was there first and the course came after adding to the original house's risk of damage.

 

 

[goaliedad30]

We ran into an interesting situation a number of years ago during a course re-design with existing houses. One of the proposals was to turn a long, difficult par 3 into a driveable par 4, by moving the tees back and to the left. The homeowners on the right side of the par 3 successfully argued that when they bought their houses, they had minimal danger of being hit by golf balls given how far they were to the right of the tee on a par-3 hole that aimed the tee shot somewhat left of the house line. The driveable par-4 concept would have put them right in the landing zone for shorter hitters or the layup shot from the tee, with a tee pointed essentially directly at the houses.

 

Sadly, it would have been a great hole. But it did not happen ....

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, Warrior42111 said:

Just to clarify, I was referring to getting your house hit and complaining. Also I can only speak for the US and really only the states I lived in.

 

But usually if the course was there first, the person golfing isn't responsible,

 

 

 

Really???

[Warrior42111]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Really???

Unless you can prove intent to hit the house in many states from a legal stand point yes they can't take the golfer or course to court for damages.

 

Again, this is just what I've seen living up and down the east coast.

[Wham49]

that is a good ? my new club is home lined. I haven't hit one in their yards yet, but I don't see what the problem would be, of you walk to your ball pick it up and leave, but I'm sure they have people who come onto their lawn, hit their ball, and whatever else, so the homeowners are probably sick of golfers, and do not have much patience for it

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Warrior42111 said:

Unless you can prove intent to hit the house in many states from a legal stand point yes they can't take the golfer or course to court for damages.

 

Again, this is just what I've seen living up and down the east coast.

 

Sounds pretty wild. Person A lives in a house next to a golf course and person B hits a slice through A's living room window and person A just have to live with it?

 

I am soooo glad I live here and not there...

[brew4eagle]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sounds pretty wild. Person A lives in a house next to a golf course and person B hits a slice through A's living room window and person A just have to live with it?

 

I am soooo glad I live here and not there...

Person A should have considered this when purchasing the house in a slicer's range

Edited May 17, 2022 by brew4eagle

[buckrogers71]

A few places that I play have houses around them and YES i've been in their yards. That being said, if I park one over there, I give it a look see, if I find it and it is close enough to rake over with a club, I'll do that. If there isnt a fence and its not in the middle of the yard, I'll trot over to get it. I WONT hop a fence, or play out of the guy's yard to me thats rude. 

 

I've been fortunate a couple of the times when the homeowner was out, they chucked the ball to me after I gave it a quick look. On another occasion, I got my ball back AND a beer. LOL

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, brew4eagle said:

Person A should have considered this when purchasing the house in a slicer's range

 

This is just beyond my imagination. In my country the person who damages something is always responsible. Then it is up to the circumstances whose insurance pays but in NO WAY the house owner would pay in such a case as described.

 

Wow....

[Wham49]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is just beyond my imagination. In my country the person who damages something is always responsible. Then it is up to the circumstances whose insurance pays but in NO WAY the house owner would pay in such a case as described.

 

Wow....

there is something in my country called buyer beware, you buy a house on a golf course, you shuold be aware that things can happen like a bad shot, if you park your car at a high school baseball game and somebody fouls one off and hits your window, it is your fault for parking so close, not the athlete trying to perform in a game. It is a natural consequence

[Mr. Bean]

46 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

there is something in my country called buyer beware, you buy a house on a golf course, you shuold be aware that things can happen like a bad shot, if you park your car at a high school baseball game and somebody fouls one off and hits your window, it is your fault for parking so close, not the athlete trying to perform in a game. It is a natural consequence

 

Well, I guess we are both happy that way. In my country the person who causes the damage pays, and in your country the person who did not understand where his house was built pays.

 

Afa your example of a baseball game it is nowhere close to what we are talking about. A baseball court most likely has a parking lot where to park the cars. Should you choose to park on the field you are to blame but if your car on the parking lot get a hit... should the car owner still be responsible..? 

 

I am sooooooo glad I live here where people are responsible for the things they do.

[Wham49]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, I guess we are both happy that way. In my country the person who causes the damage pays, and in your country the person who did not understand where his house was built pays.

 

Afa your example of a baseball game it is nowhere close to what we are talking about. A baseball court most likely has a parking lot where to park the cars. Should you choose to park on the field you are to blame but if your car on the parking lot get a hit... should the car owner still be responsible..? 

 

I am sooooooo glad I live here where people are responsible for the things they do.

yes thats right, I feel the baseball example is apt, park by flying balls your fault, buy a house next to flying balls your fault

[mshills]

Common sense should prevail here. 
 

If I jack one into someone’s yard and it is plainly visible? Yes, that is my ball and I’m going to go grab it, quickly and unobtrusively. I will do this on foot, never in my life would I run a golf cart up near someone’s crib!

 

I am not going to search in flower beds. I am not going to hop a fence.

 

Playing the ball out of someone’s yard — surely not serious! That should NEVER happen. I will play from in-course O.B. 😆 but never, ever from someone’s yard that is obviously out of bounds. 

[Girevik]

21 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, I guess we are both happy that way. In my country the person who causes the damage pays, and in your country the person who did not understand where his house was built pays.

 

Afa your example of a baseball game it is nowhere close to what we are talking about. A baseball court most likely has a parking lot where to park the cars. Should you choose to park on the field you are to blame but if your car on the parking lot get a hit... should the car owner still be responsible..? 

 

I am sooooooo glad I live here where people are responsible for the things they do.

I disagree, the baseball field is a perfect analogy.  If I'm attending a little league game in a park, there are usually a good many parking spaces within range of a foul ball,  No one is talking about parking on the field.  If I choose to park in one of those spots I am assuming the risk of being hit.  For that matter, there are a number of major league parks where a homerun can be hit entirely out of the park.  People congregate in those areas hoping to get a ball.  If someone takes one off the noggin are they to blame for standing there or the player for hitting the ball?

 

I also don't understand your comment "the person who did not understand where his house was built".  Who buys a house without knowing where it's built?

 

As to your comment about being "responsible for the things they do".  I think we all a agree with that.  But the question is whether I'm responsible for parking close to the field or buying a house on a fairway.  Or is Mr. Golfer responsible for hitting my house or little Tommy responsible for hitting my car?

Edited May 18, 2022 by Girevik

[ChipStrokes]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Afa your example of a baseball game it is nowhere close to what we are talking about. A baseball court most likely has a parking lot where to park the cars. Should you choose to park on the field you are to blame but if your car on the parking lot get a hit... should the car owner still be responsible..? 

he's not talking about parking on the field haha.  

 

most fields have parking along at least one of the foul lines.  if you choose to park there, and a ball goes through your windshield, yes it's your responsibility.  you parked there fully well knowing the risks involved.  

 

same as buying a house on the right side of a fairway, 200 yards from the tee box.