Monte's new No Turn - Cast

[ThePaineTrain]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

I skimmed the first two pages of search results for this question and was surprised to not find this being discussed:

 

In the videos for cast a and b, a in particular, Monte strongly emphasizes what the lead wrist needs to be doing. Does anyone here focus on the trail hand instead?

 

For me, focusing on the trail hand instead, the cast moves have become the tiddy twister and the spank moves. Someone please stop me if I'm going town the wrong road.

 

I've heard the cast A move for the trail hand described as a "motorcycle move" (revving the throttle). Not sure if that came from a Monte video or a thread on here though. Seems like a bigger move than any tiddy twister I've ever performed, must have been rough times for your siblings growing up.

[AZGolfer1950]

I believe AMG refers to the move as opening a door knob for the trail hand. They have a few videos on YouTube regarding this move   Another coach on be better golf used reference of a karate chop with trail hand but keeping the wrist extension

[vandyfan]

Did anybody else struggle with hitting driver low on the face whilst trying to employ the NTC swing? I am consistently hitting low (very visible on my matte black cobra face) which I confirmed both during play and on the range with footspray. Could be any number of other issues but was wondering if this is a common fault? Maybe I am overdoing the cast B and flipping at it? Or I just suck? 

 

EDIT: It is a release issue, I believe, after rewatching all of NTC. I think I am not doing the 2nd cast correctly and, therefore, altering the strike pattern on my driver. Will have to experiment into a net tonight with footspray but I would almost bet my life on it. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by vandyfan

[rchang72]

22 hours ago, vandyfan said:

Did anybody else struggle with hitting driver low on the face whilst trying to employ the NTC swing? I am consistently hitting low (very visible on my matte black cobra face) which I confirmed both during play and on the range with footspray. Could be any number of other issues but was wondering if this is a common fault? Maybe I am overdoing the cast B and flipping at it? Or I just suck? 

 

EDIT: It is a release issue, I believe, after rewatching all of NTC. I think I am not doing the 2nd cast correctly and, therefore, altering the strike pattern on my driver. Will have to experiment into a net tonight with footspray but I would almost bet my life on it. 

please do and report back. My irons swing is much improved, but driver all low

[PNWGuy]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:20 PM, KD1 said:

For me, focusing on the trail hand instead, the cast moves have become the tiddy twister and the spank moves. Someone please stop me if I'm going town the wrong road.

WTH?  Is this still a golf forum or has it morphed into something else?

[vandyfan]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:04 PM, rchang72 said:

please do and report back. My irons swing is much improved, but driver all low

Tonight it was working

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

50 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

Tonight it was working

 

 

 

Hit one slightly off toe?

[vandyfan]

10 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Hit one slightly off toe?

Compared to where I was hitting it, this is absolutely flushed. I was hitting the bottom third of the face mostly. 

[Rapidcat]

15 hours ago, PNWGuy said:

WTH?  Is this still a golf forum or has it morphed into something else?

[Janik]

Hi guys,

 

Returning to the NTC method after losing my way. 
 

Two issues with me accepting that the Cast A involves ulnar deviation:

- The evidence from tour pro swings suggests ulnar only happens from P5.5

- Justin Rose demonstrates the arm lowering from transition without ulnar deviation. He even says it “allows me to keep lag”. 
 

To me it would make more logical sense if the cast A was an arm lowering action only. The ulnar is inevitable later due to the forces acting on the wrist joint. 
 

Has anybody successfully used NTC by not initiating ulnar deviation from the top?

 

Cheers

J

[Doodlebug87]

13 hours ago, Janik said:

Hi guys,

 

Returning to the NTC method after losing my way. 
 

Two issues with me accepting that the Cast A involves ulnar deviation:

- The evidence from tour pro swings suggests ulnar only happens from P5.5

- Justin Rose demonstrates the arm lowering from transition without ulnar deviation. He even says it “allows me to keep lag”. 
 

To me it would make more logical sense if the cast A was an arm lowering action only. The ulnar is inevitable later due to the forces acting on the wrist joint. 
 

Has anybody successfully used NTC by not initiating ulnar deviation from the top?

 

Cheers

J

What Monte is describing is that ulnar happens later, but if you try to initiate it later you will effectively run out of time, therefore your intent needs to be to initiate it immediately. In isolation this may not appear correct, but if you blend it with the arms and pivot it should happen at the right time

[Janik]

3 hours ago, Doodlebug87 said:

What Monte is describing is that ulnar happens later, but if you try to initiate it later you will effectively run out of time, therefore your intent needs to be to initiate it immediately. In isolation this may not appear correct, but if you blend it with the arms and pivot it should happen at the right time

Thanks, man. 
 

An argument against that theory is that ulnar is going to happen at the right time anyway due to the double pendulum effect. If we don’t actively hold it, it’s impossible to stop it. So why is there any intent required?

 

Cheers

[games]

Doing ulnar at the top in the prescribed direction helps prevent the elbow getting stuck by forcing the entire trail arm clockwise for RH.

 

As long as you don’t stand up early, it gives the elbow room to lead the trail arm through the downswing to impact.

[Acooke2434]

Bought the video series and it definitely makes me feel like it's all I will ever need IF I can stick with it! Even incorporating just cast B with SW pitch shots and wedges has been a bonus. Thanks to those of you who suggested that.

 

I am 3 range sessions in and 75% of hitting balls has been pausing at top, three transition knee pumps, cast A, pause, hit.  Getting 7 iron to go 125 or so just by doing that is satisfying.  

 

Transition + Cast A is definitely where I feel I'm lacking most, but I also wanted to get some opinions with my backswing.  I've never been an overswinger... backswing has always been pretty compact. But I wonder if my hands could be a little deeper than they were in the night time video.  Day time video I tried to get the hands a little deeper while not sacrificing height and still feeling the "no turn."

 

Just gonna compliment Monte the chef... of course there will be room for improvement but man it feels good to see myself bowing that wrist on the downswing even if it's a smidge!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hilts1969]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:13 PM, Janik said:

Hi guys,

 

Returning to the NTC method after losing my way. 
 

Two issues with me accepting that the Cast A involves ulnar deviation:

- The evidence from tour pro swings suggests ulnar only happens from P5.5

- Justin Rose demonstrates the arm lowering from transition without ulnar deviation. He even says it “allows me to keep lag”. 
 

To me it would make more logical sense if the cast A was an arm lowering action only. The ulnar is inevitable later due to the forces acting on the wrist joint. 
 

Has anybody successfully used NTC by not initiating ulnar deviation from the top?

 

Cheers

J

 

 

There are two versions that are floating about. The other earlier one(I think) he does mention sustaining lag. In this one it's much more like the NTC move. 

 

I can actually get into that exaggerated position and pause and hit balls. It kind of gave me the confidence that I wasn't going to need to worry about dumping under plane.

[Janik]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:35 PM, games said:

Doing ulnar at the top in the prescribed direction helps prevent the elbow getting stuck by forcing the entire trail arm clockwise for RH.

 

As long as you don’t stand up early, it gives the elbow room to lead the trail arm through the downswing to impact.

That doesn’t make much sense to me. One can ulnar deviate at the top without affecting any other part of the arm. 

 

 

[Janik]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:35 PM, Hilts1969 said:

 

 

There are two versions that are floating about. The other earlier one(I think) he does mention sustaining lag. In this one it's much more like the NTC move. 

 

I can actually get into that exaggerated position and pause and hit balls. It kind of gave me the confidence that I wasn't going to need to worry about dumping under plane.

I see zero to negligible evidence of ulnar deviation in his demonstration. 

[Duffer Mark]

@Janik, have you successfully used NTC by not initiating ulnar deviation from the top?

[Janik]

2 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

@Janik, have you successfully used NTC by not initiating ulnar deviation from the top?

Define successfully. 
 

I have used the Justin Rose version and shot 6 shots better than an 18 handicap. 
 

It’s all relative I find. You’ll have guys on here saying it works wonders that play to a 24 handicap, and I’m sure low single digit guys that are only getting into to the idea hoping it will get them closer to scratch. 

 

But that’s a side point. I see no evidence of ulnar deviation from the top in pro swings, and see it perfectly logical that it happens as a result of the club head’s momentum. 
 

Here is a thought experiment: if one believes the theory that the intent is required early to produce the effect later ie feel vs real type thing, then how would one actually produce the effect right from the top, just for a demo? I’m sure anybody can actually ulnar from the top as a non-functional swing, but this should be impossible if it is true that feeling it from the top produces the result near the bottom. 

[Duffer Mark]

Does Monte claim tour pros ulnar deviate from the top of the backswing?

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Does Monte claim tour pros ulnar deviate from the top of the backswing?

No one good does.  However, we are talking about intent.  
 

With the body shifting and rotating in the other direction, most golfers need the 8 o’clock ulnar intent.  
 

That encourages more rotation which slows and delays when the ulnar actually happens.  As does arms in sequence….which is also a problem for most golfers.  The arms don’t accelerate before the hips or thorax.  That’s impossible.  However, the overwhelming majority of golfers accelerate the arms late, so the intent needs to be arms first. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[PracticeSwinger]

20 hours ago, Janik said:

But that’s a side point. I see no evidence of ulnar deviation from the top in pro swings, and see it perfectly logical that it happens as a result of the club head’s momentum. 
 

Here is a thought experiment: if one believes the theory that the intent is required early to produce the effect later ie feel vs real type thing, then how would one actually produce the effect right from the top, just for a demo? I’m sure anybody can actually ulnar from the top as a non-functional swing, but this should be impossible if it is true that feeling it from the top produces the result near the bottom. 

Of course it's a discussion on intent and effect, all of these moves happening in less than a quarter of a second...

 

So what would be your alternative if you were to provide a generic framework (not talking about individual lessons here where you can work with the student to pinpoint different causes and effects) to the vast majority of golfers... most of them with a big turn of the hips right off the bat (especially the lead one getting toward the ball), causing an inside takeaway, disconnect arm raise to the top, too long of a backswing that sets them with a poor wrist pattern (trail wrist not extended)... and almost all of them firing their hips and torso/shoulders in an effort to swing hard and fast from the top to smash that mofo, without even thinking about their arms and wrists motions... that causes them to goat hump and stall/flip save to even catch the ball and send it right of the planet... what would you recommend their intentions should be?

Edited October 27, 2022 by MtlJayMan
typo

[games]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:59 PM, Janik said:

That doesn’t make much sense to me. One can ulnar deviate at the top without affecting any other part of the arm. 

 

 

That's why the "prescribed direction" part of the instruction is key.  To get to the prescribed direction, not only do you ulnar deviate, you also have to extend the trail wrist.  Now, the arm will turn...

 

Again, as Monte said, he's trying to utilize simple "intents" to get students to do the right motions, in the least technical explanations possible.  Your comments and questions may be best addressed by Monte himself in the YT he did with Hackmotion.  Gets into all the details of the motion of the wrists in NTC...

[Duffer Mark]

I've decided not to take golf advice from anyone unless they can provide me with scholastic/bio-mechanical research backed up with at least two double-blind studies for each claim with Tiger Woods' 2019 swing as the control. And the presentations need to be formatted in Turabian. 

[Hilts1969]

On 10/26/2022 at 8:00 PM, Janik said:

I see zero to negligible evidence of ulnar deviation in his demonstration. 

 

If you look at his other video and then this you will

[glk]

One of Monte’s keys to his speed is that he keeps the club very close to his body in the all important transition and early downswing - great example of delayed wrist uncocking.  Dr kwon has measured and wrist uncocking is correlated to swing speed - later is faster - later is between p5 (early downswing arms) and early downswing (shaft vertical).   

 

dr kwon recommends pulling the arrow from the quiver.
 

Monte demoing this so NTC is actually turn and no cast lol.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by glk

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s actually faster is later.  

[games]

3 hours ago, glk said:

One of Monte’s keys to his speed is that he keeps the club very close to his body in the all important transition and early downswing - great example of delayed wrist uncocking.  Dr kwon has measured and wrist uncocking is correlated to swing speed - later is faster - later is between p5 (early downswing arms) and early downswing (shaft vertical).   

 

dr kwon recommends pulling the arrow from the quiver.
 

Monte demoing this so NTC is actually turn and no cast lol.  

 

 

 

 

That shaft has to be suing for damages after that transition.  Mother of mercy….

[dalillama47]

4 hours ago, glk said:

One of Monte’s keys to his speed is that he keeps the club very close to his body in the all important transition and early downswing - great example of delayed wrist uncocking.  Dr kwon has measured and wrist uncocking is correlated to swing speed - later is faster - later is between p5 (early downswing arms) and early downswing (shaft vertical).   

 

dr kwon recommends pulling the arrow from the quiver.
 

Monte demoing this so NTC is actually turn and no cast lol.  

Wow, that top photo looks like he has zero hip turn, just the upper body coiling against the lower, then in the bottom photo in transition, looks like he pushes the left knee toward the target.  So simple and powerful looking.
 

 

 

 

 

 

[glk]

23 hours ago, dalillama47 said:

 

These are both after transition.    First is p5 and second is close to shaft vertical.    
 

point is the “cast” to 8 o’clock at speed causes the wrists to achieve max cocking and maintain it until around the second photo or shaft vertical in downswing.    This keeps the club close to the body - like a ice skater spinning and pulling arms in - so angular velocity of body peaks early and thru release and deceleration lots of angular velocity is transferred to the club .

 

people interfere with this by either attempting to hold lag or cast the wrist early in transition - like a skater extending the arms to slow down - so potential max angular velocity is not realized.   Whew.    
 

in short casting is a big speed killer.