what's a bad golf shot ?

[nitram]

20 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

 

 

I disagree that not touching the hole on a 7ft putt is a "bad shot".  My definition of a bad shot is one that costs you an additional stroke.  OB, hazard, lost ball, chip that doesn't get on the green, sand shot that does not get you on the green, missing the green from 100yds or closer and lag putts that are left outside of 3'-5'.  That 7' putt you missed probably has less than a 50% make probability so missing it entirely doesn't mean anything as we don't get half strokes.  

 

I can look at every single round of my 2020 and tell you with a high degree of certainty that a missed 7' putt, missing the green from 139yds or a lousy drive that leaves me with a 200yd approach shot did not kill my round.  Penalties, two chips, not getting out of the bunker in one, three putts and missing the green from 100yds killed my scores.  

 

From a mental standpoint I would focus on calling "bad shots" ones that cost you a stroke that you can avoid.  Missing the green, missing the fairway and missing putts outside of 3' are going to happen.  You'll gain more from not two chipping, not three putting and avoiding grabbing a ball out of your pocket.

 

 

I could not have said it better myself. 

 

The other critical aspect of this is like Mike touched on above and that is putting that last avoidable shot behind you and moving on with a clear mind and focus on the shot at hand. Or as I was taught, "pull the shade down on the last shot" good or bad and move on.

[Fairway14]

7 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

From personal experience, I can assure you that a flubbed chip is easily recognized as a poor shot. I actually think it's much more likely that people will not recognize poor longer shots. A well struck mid-iron that lands in a greenside bunker because you were too aggressive with your target is a lost half a stroke, give or take. That's worth about the same as missing a 8 foot putt. Everyone always remembers the putts they missed.

 

"Flubbed chip" , yes. But the slightly mishit chips and pitches which end up 15 feet from the hole are perceived by many players as "decent shots" .

And lots of players miss 8 foot putts all day long but don't correlate that to having mishit the putt. Much of consistently good putting is about making solid-square ball contact. Everybody recognizes a sliced tee ball but relatively few people are aware they are making poor quality contact with the putter.

I think these "less obvious mishits"  is why it it is common for players to think they have a "decent short game" but "struggle off the tee box". In reality the mishits are usually happening for both the long and the short shots.

[Justsomeguy]

The closer you are to the hole, the more the shot counts.

Closer you are, the higher the expectation of making it, the greater the disappointment in not.

Further you are, the more chance you have to recover.

You push your drive 5 degrees offline who cares. Doesn't affect number 2 much. You pull number 2 offline 5 degrees, who cares, if you miss the green you can still get up and down.

You mishit the chip by 5 degrees, now your putt make percentage has plummeted.

That makeable 5 foot putt - 5 degrees off? Adds an entire extra stroke.

[Ty_Webb]

3 hours ago, Justsomeguy said:

The closer you are to the hole, the more the shot counts.

Closer you are, the higher the expectation of making it, the greater the disappointment in not.

Further you are, the more chance you have to recover.

You push your drive 5 degrees offline who cares. Doesn't affect number 2 much. You pull number 2 offline 5 degrees, who cares, if you miss the green you can still get up and down.

You mishit the chip by 5 degrees, now your putt make percentage has plummeted.

That makeable 5 foot putt - 5 degrees off? Adds an entire extra stroke.

Missing a drive by 5 degrees is not that bad of a shot. To miss a 5 foot putt by 5 degrees you have to have the face about 6 degrees open assuming a square path. If you hit a drive with a square path and the face 6 degrees open it’s costing you more than a shot a good chunk of the time. 

[Justsomeguy]

10 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Missing a drive by 5 degrees is not that bad of a shot. To miss a 5 foot putt by 5 degrees you have to have the face about 6 degrees open assuming a square path. If you hit a drive with a square path and the face 6 degrees open it’s costing you more than a shot a good chunk of the time. 

Not if you're aiming on the left side. Point being a bad drive still leaves 100-200 yards to get where you need to go, with no loss of stroke.

A bad putt that had a 50pct chance of dropping adds 1.0 strokes every time.

[Ty_Webb]

23 minutes ago, Justsomeguy said:

Not if you're aiming on the left side. Point being a bad drive still leaves 100-200 yards to get where you need to go, with no loss of stroke.

A bad putt that had a 50pct chance of dropping adds 1.0 strokes every time.

 

Not true. You should read every shot counts. A poorly hit drive adds some portion of a shot to your score. The reason people get this wrong all the time is because putting is black and white. Either the ball goes in or it doesn't. But it doesn't work that way. Case in point, a bad putt that had a 50pct chance of dropping adds 0.5 strokes every time. A drive that misses the fairway adds about a quarter of a shot over the equivalent drive in the fairway. Hit it in a fairway bunker and it's more than that. Miss a green from 150 and you're losing some chunk of a stroke. 

[Justsomeguy]

15 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Not true. You should read every shot counts. A poorly hit drive adds some portion of a shot to your score. The reason people get this wrong all the time is because putting is black and white. Either the ball goes in or it doesn't. But it doesn't work that way. Case in point, a bad putt that had a 50pct chance of dropping adds 0.5 strokes every time. A drive that misses the fairway adds about a quarter of a shot over the equivalent drive in the fairway. Hit it in a fairway bunker and it's more than that. Miss a green from 150 and you're losing some chunk of a stroke. 

I'd agree w that. Great way to quantify it.

I'd have guessed the missed short putt adds more than the slightly errant drive.

Totally believe the approach that lands in a bunker adds a ton to an amateur and way less to a pro.

I think most ams are better out of rough than sand.

[chipa]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:32 PM, Fairway14 said:

Every person who plays golf recognizes that any duffed, sliced, duck hooked etc... tee ball or other full swing shot is a bad one.

And a bladed chip that runs across the green, a chilly dipped pitch that travels 5 feet, or a skulled bunker shot are also easily recognized as bad shots.

But what about chips or pitches that end up 12 feet from the hole instead of 5 feet ? Or the 8 foot putts that miss the hole all day long? These subtle missed shots cost a stroke just like the more obvious fuller shot misses, but the subtle missed shots  are not as obvious so people don't seem to give them much thought.

My point is that a mishit 7 foot putt that does not scare the hole is just as "bad a shot" as the short and crooked tee shot that finds the rough. Do you agree, disagree ?

 

For the high hc'er I think the preference would be to miss the hole on 8 foot putts rather than the fairway with the driver because it probably means one's swing has taken a hike for the day. 😉

[Ty_Webb]

17 minutes ago, Justsomeguy said:

I'd agree w that. Great way to quantify it.

I'd have guessed the missed short putt adds more than the slightly errant drive.

Totally believe the approach that lands in a bunker adds a ton to an amateur and way less to a pro.

I think most ams are better out of rough than sand.

 

It depends how short the putt is and how errant the drive is. If the putt is 2 feet, that's pretty much an entire stroke. If it's 8 feet it's half a stroke. If it's 12 feet it's about a quarter of a stroke. If the drive leaks right into a penalty area, it's likely more than a whole shot. If you've hit it 300 yards into the semi, that's likely not a big impact at all. If it's a squirrelly 220 yard spinny cut that winds up in the woods, it's more than a shot.

 

Let's put it this way - if you could have DJ hit your drives for you, that would likely be a significantly bigger benefit to your scores than having him putt for you. Unless, and I can't really understate this, you are an AWFUL putter. Like 40+ putts a round kind of dreadful.

[Fairway14]

8 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

For the high hc'er I think the preference would be to miss the hole on 8 foot putts rather than the fairway with the driver because it probably means one's swing has taken a hike for the day. 😉

 

I agree, and believe your point is why many players believe their "short game is o.k., decent" but the long game "needs work".

However the reality is that missing 8-foot putts all day likely means the putter swing swing is as off the mark as the driver swing.  

[chipa]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I agree, and believe your point is why many players believe their "short game is o.k., decent" but the long game "needs work".

However the reality is that missing 8-foot putts all day likely means the putter swing swing is as off the mark as the driver swing.  

 

You could be right, but then again I'm not sure that it takes as much work to get the putting stroke back plus if you miss the hole from an 8 foot putt chances are the second will go in, so only one stroke is lost at worse on average per hole. How many strokes are lost on average by going o.b. or in the woods with the driver? 2 at least I'd say.

 

Another thing to keep in mind too is when we hit the driver badly it kind of sours out interest in the game and honestly by the time we get to the green after blowing away 3 strokes we are more than likely thinking about how to stop the bleeding before the next tee shot than making an 8 foot putt. On the other hand, when a pro hits a bad tee shot most just blow it off and aren't trying to figure out how to revamp their swing before they have to tee off again so they can more adequately prepare themselves to make that 8 foot putt.

Edited October 27, 2020 by chipa

[harolease]

15 hours ago, Justsomeguy said:

The closer you are to the hole, the more the shot counts.

Closer you are, the higher the expectation of making it, the greater the disappointment in not.

Further you are, the more chance you have to recover.

You push your drive 5 degrees offline who cares. Doesn't affect number 2 much. You pull number 2 offline 5 degrees, who cares, if you miss the green you can still get up and down.

You mishit the chip by 5 degrees, now your putt make percentage has plummeted.

That makeable 5 foot putt - 5 degrees off? Adds an entire extra stroke.

Even 2 degree off at 5 feet is a miss putt on straight forward no break putt I think putting and chipping is just a different game  to develop 

Edited October 27, 2020 by harolease

[chippa13]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I agree, and believe your point is why many players believe their "short game is o.k., decent" but the long game "needs work".

However the reality is that missing 8-foot putts all day likely means the putter swing swing is as off the mark as the driver swing.  

I can't remember if you've said it yet in this thread but is missing 8-foot putts all day a sign that the putter swing is off and the player made a bad shot.

[Fairway14]

11 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

I can't remember if you've said it yet in this thread but is missing 8-foot putts all day a sign that the putter swing is off and the player made a bad shot.

 

Yes, I think it is common for any player shooting above 85 or so to routinely mishit tee shots and putts .

The mishit tee shots are obvious, but the mishit putts are not. Both are mishits 

I've noticed it's fairly common for high handicap players to proclaim that they have a "decent short game" and it's their long game that "needs work"., but that perception-distinction is likely because the mishit long shots are obvious while the mishit short shots are usually subtle.

Regarding especially penal mishit full shots, such as a ball OB, that is usually a result of club selection. In other words, a player who routinely suffers from OB or hazard penalty strokes can reduce and, or, eliminate those penalties by changing their club selection habits.

[chippa13]

Some folks don't get sarcasm.

[b.mattay]

5 hours ago, chippa13 said:

I can't remember if you've said it yet in this thread but is missing 8-foot putts all day a sign that the putter swing is off and the player made a bad shot.

I can't agree with this. I've had many days where I miss a ton of putts around the 8 foot range while rolling it fantastic. Most putts in that range will have a significant amount of break, so green-reading comes into play too, and no one is a robot in that regard. 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by b.mattay

[EDT501]

I think it is really hard to objectively evaluate the state of one's game without hard data and reasonable benchmarks to compare them to. I keep track of every shot I hit and enter it into my own database at the end of every round. I compare those results to PGA tour averages such as GIR % per distance, proximity per distance, putt make % per distance, 3 putt avoidance, fairways hit, etc. From there I can see which parts of my game are the furtherest from the PGA tour average and focus on those. I also take it a step further and consider how frequently I encounter each category of shot as well. It's a time consuming process to do by hand, so I usually will track everything for about a month, then take the next month and just focus on the areas I identified and when I feel like I have improved, go back to tracking to see what shifts I can see. 

 

As to the author's point about identifying bad shots, I think becoming more familiar with the data behind my own game and, more importantly, understanding what benchmarks the best in the world are setting has helped me tremendously. Realizing that the worlds best will only hit the green a little more than half the time from 175 yards and also that they only make 55% of their putts from 8 feet has helped keep things in perspective. In contrast, it has shown me that missing even 1 putt less than 5 feet every 4 rounds is giving strokes away. 

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, EDT501 said:

I think it is really hard to objectively evaluate the state of one's game without hard data and reasonable benchmarks to compare them to. I keep track of every shot I hit and enter it into my own database at the end of every round. I compare those results to PGA tour averages such as GIR % per distance, proximity per distance, putt make % per distance, 3 putt avoidance, fairways hit, etc. From there I can see which parts of my game are the furtherest from the PGA tour average and focus on those. I also take it a step further and consider how frequently I encounter each category of shot as well. It's a time consuming process to do by hand, so I usually will track everything for about a month, then take the next month and just focus on the areas I identified and when I feel like I have improved, go back to tracking to see what shifts I can see. 

 

As to the author's point about identifying bad shots, I think becoming more familiar with the data behind my own game and, more importantly, understanding what benchmarks the best in the world are setting has helped me tremendously. Realizing that the worlds best will only hit the green a little more than half the time from 175 yards and also that they only make 55% of their putts from 8 feet has helped keep things in perspective. In contrast, it has shown me that missing even 1 putt less than 5 feet every 4 rounds is giving strokes away. 

 

I would watch out a little for how far from PGA tour averages you are. If you're let's say 7 shots a round behind with your tee shots, 5 shots behind with approach shots, 3 behind with short game and 5 behind putting, then likely your putting is the place you'll get the most bang for your buck. Aside from anything else it's easier to improve your putting than it is to start hitting it 50 yards further. If you could hit it 50 yards further, that would likely help you a bunch more than your putting (especially if you straighten it out some too), but it's really hard to do that.

[EDT501]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

I would watch out a little for how far from PGA tour averages you are. If you're let's say 7 shots a round behind with your tee shots, 5 shots behind with approach shots, 3 behind with short game and 5 behind putting, then likely your putting is the place you'll get the most bang for your buck. Aside from anything else it's easier to improve your putting than it is to start hitting it 50 yards further. If you could hit it 50 yards further, that would likely help you a bunch more than your putting (especially if you straighten it out some too), but it's really hard to do that.

You're right, of course. My example above was a simplified version of the analytics I actually use to dictate practice. It's a factor not only of % performance difference but also the frequency with which I will face that scenario. There is still some discretion involved in determining what to practice and for how much time, but at least now I have an objective way to measure the relative performance of each aspect of my game and am able to make more informed decisions about what areas I need to focus on rather than using my memories of my last rounds as a "finger-in-the-air" barometer for the same. For instance my initial analysis made it clear that there wasn't much room to improve on my putting from inside 25 feet, but that my distance control from 35ft+ needed a lot a work. Additionally from 50-75 yards I was significantly underperforming and that, again, distance control was the culprit. Finally, while my fairway % was good, the severity of my misses off the tee jumped out as a problem. 

 

I'd like the real takeaway from my post to be that everyone needs to find realistic benchmarks for themselves and track their data over several rounds to identify the weak points in their game. Some people, myself definitely included, have overly high expectations for some shots and don't put sufficient weight on certain "misses" (the original premise of this post I believe) because they don't have an appropriate frame of reference. As someone who has played to a + handicap in the past and is currently single-digits, I can use the PGA database as a relative target across the board. It becomes a little harder to get good data for the higher-handicap level. I think data-based apps like Arccos are probably the best answer. 

[Ty_Webb]

13 hours ago, EDT501 said:

You're right, of course. My example above was a simplified version of the analytics I actually use to dictate practice. It's a factor not only of % performance difference but also the frequency with which I will face that scenario. There is still some discretion involved in determining what to practice and for how much time, but at least now I have an objective way to measure the relative performance of each aspect of my game and am able to make more informed decisions about what areas I need to focus on rather than using my memories of my last rounds as a "finger-in-the-air" barometer for the same. For instance my initial analysis made it clear that there wasn't much room to improve on my putting from inside 25 feet, but that my distance control from 35ft+ needed a lot a work. Additionally from 50-75 yards I was significantly underperforming and that, again, distance control was the culprit. Finally, while my fairway % was good, the severity of my misses off the tee jumped out as a problem. 

 

I'd like the real takeaway from my post to be that everyone needs to find realistic benchmarks for themselves and track their data over several rounds to identify the weak points in their game. Some people, myself definitely included, have overly high expectations for some shots and don't put sufficient weight on certain "misses" (the original premise of this post I believe) because they don't have an appropriate frame of reference. As someone who has played to a + handicap in the past and is currently single-digits, I can use the PGA database as a relative target across the board. It becomes a little harder to get good data for the higher-handicap level. I think data-based apps like Arccos are probably the best answer. 

For higher handicaps, Broadie's book I think goes into some detail on what the range is between a PGA tour player and a higher handicap amateur. You can measure your strokes gained against the PGA tour, then compare your per round scores with people in your handicap range and see where the gaps are. So you might be -8 on tee shots, but if standard is -9, then that's a relative strength. Similarly if you're a -5 on putting and standard is -3 or -4 then that's a relative weakness. Agreed that it's important to keep your stats over a period of time if you want to see real trends emerging. It's best not to just trust your instincts on this.