Asked to move ball not on green

[cros0x]

I’ve read the rules on this one but still need a little help if you please!

 

I understand that playing partners can ask me to move my ball at any time if it’s interfering with their play - even if only ‘mentally’!

 

Sure, no problem I say, I will mark it. I also know not to clean it. But the rules for me are a little vague on how to ‘replace’ it properly.

 

Do I place it carefully on the exact spot by my marker?

 

If I’m placing it, do I have to keep the ball in its exact orientation i.e. no rotation, otherwise I could be accused of ‘cleaning’ the ball? (I’ve heard contrasting views on this).

 

Do I ‘drop it’ behind my marker?

 

And while we’re at it... do I mark in front or behind my ball, or does it not matter?

 

And do I ‘have to’ take relief from immovable objects e.g. steps to green, or is it my call?

Any difference in procedure if replacing in rough or bunker?

 

Sorry to ask, but there’s someone at my club who asks people to move their ball routinely. I think he does it in hope they don’t do it properly so he can call a penalty... it’s happened too many times to be a coincidence.

 

Thanks all!

[2bGood]

First off that guys is total class A jerk.

 

Rule 14 is very clear in my view about all this,Rule 14 but I will tackle a few of your questions:

 

- Mark has to be behind or beside the ball

-You replace the ball on the same spot (not drop)

-No the ball does not to be replaced with the same orientation

- The big difference with sand is if your lie is altered you must recreate it. In the General area if your lie is altered you must find the most similar lie no closer to the hole one club length away 

 

You MAY take relief from immovable obstructions but are not required to. Keep in mind if you take relief you MUST take full relief. 

 

Off the top of my head the only occasion I can think of where you MUST  take relief is wrong putting green. (I will note there are number of local rules that require relief that could be in play)

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by 2bGood

[sui generis]

20 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Off the top of my head the only occasion I can think of where you MUST  take relief is wrong putting green.

 

I'll offer two more:

 

When the ball is out of bounds, and

When the ball lies in a No Play Zone

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

- Mark has to be behind or beside the ball

Just adding that you may put your mark in front of the ball, beside it, behind it, as long as it is pretty dang close (Interpretation 14.1a/2)

24 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

- The big difference with sand is if your lie is altered you must recreate it.  In the General area if your lie is altered you must find the most similar lie no closer to the hole on club length away

If I read Interpretation 8.1d(1)/1 correctly, you are allowed to restore the original conditions, but are not required to do so.  

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'll offer two more:

 

When the ball is out of bounds, and

When the ball lies in a No Play Zone

 

I am afraid I do not follow. How do you take relief and from what when your ball is out of bounds?

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am afraid I do not follow. How do you take relief and from what when your ball is out of bounds?

 

To be fair, Rule 18 is entitled "Stroke and Distance Relief...."

[SNIPERBBB]

Just a note, in stroke play, you may make a stroke with the ball instead of marking if asked to mark. Might want to pass that on...

[Mr. Bean]

48 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To be fair, Rule 18 is entitled "Stroke and Distance Relief...."

 

That is hardly a relief but you got me there...

 

But... then I will add to the list some more:

- ball lost in Penalty Area

- ball lost in Abnormal Course Condition

- ball lost

 

If you wish to continue play you MUST take relief from all of those 😎

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is hardly a relief but you got me there...

I just looked, some of the 18th century versions of the rules say if you lose your ball you've lost the hole.  I suppose any other solution that allows you to continue play on a hole is relief of a sort.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am afraid I do not follow. How do you take relief and from what when your ball is out of bounds?

 

 

If the player's ball lies out of bounds, their choices are to take relief or quit and go home.

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

-No the ball does not to be replaced with the same orientation

 

 

 

 

Although . . . 
 

14.2c/1 – Ball May Be Replaced in Almost Any Orientation

When replacing a lifted ball on a spot, the Rules are concerned about only the location. The ball may be aligned in any way when being replaced (such as by lining up a trademark) so long as the ball’s vertical distance to the ground remains the same.

For example, when using a Rule that does not allow cleaning, the player lifts his or her ball and there is a piece of mud sticking to it. The ball may be aligned in any way when replacing it on the original spot (such as by rotating the interfering mud towards the hole).

However, the player is not allowed to replace the ball in an alignment so the ball rests on the mud unless that was its position before it was lifted. The “spot” of the ball includes its vertical location relative to the ground.

[rp4golf]

3 hours ago, cros0x said:

I’ve read the rules on this one but still need a little help if you please!

 

I understand that playing partners can ask me to move my ball at any time if it’s interfering with their play - even if only ‘mentally’!

 

Sure, no problem I say, I will mark it. I also know not to clean it. But the rules for me are a little vague on how to ‘replace’ it properly.

 

Do I place it carefully on the exact spot by my marker?

 

If I’m placing it, do I have to keep the ball in its exact orientation i.e. no rotation, otherwise I could be accused of ‘cleaning’ the ball? (I’ve heard contrasting views on this).

 

Do I ‘drop it’ behind my marker?

 

And while we’re at it... do I mark in front or behind my ball, or does it not matter?

 

And do I ‘have to’ take relief from immovable objects e.g. steps to green, or is it my call?

Any difference in procedure if replacing in rough or bunker?

 

Sorry to ask, but there’s someone at my club who asks people to move their ball routinely. I think he does it in hope they don’t do it properly so he can call a penalty... it’s happened too many times to be a coincidence.

 

Thanks all!

Well said.

Just to add to the OP, if you've ever attended a pro tournament, when players mark their balls that are off the green they'll pick it up carefully and then oftentimes place it carefully next to their bags, before proceeding. They don't even give a second thought to the ball's orientation or anything - and you can be sure they don't play the grass/mud smudged side of the ball toward their club when they replace it. Lesson being, don't over examine the rules of golf niot-picking them to death, but at the same time know the rules and use them to your advantage.

Frankly, I agree, it sounds as if your playing partner is trying to set you up (or being extra anal) or perhaps it's gamesmanship to get under your skin in constantly asking you to mark and move your ball. We had a guy in our weekend gangsome that did this as well. So once, when my ball was nowhere near his line - my ball was on the fringe (inches from the green) and 5 feet to the right of his line, and his was about 5 feet or so behind mine, he asked me to mark my ball -and I said, "Dang, Bob, I thought you were a better player than to worry about hitting my ball. My mistake." He was shocked, everybody else in the group laughed ... and he never really did it again.
And realistically, all this excessive marking and re-marking does is slow down play.

[bladehunter]

I’d vote for kicking this guy in the shin.  I mean once In a while. Sure.  I’ll oblige.  But often ?  I can only think of once in 5 years I’ve marked a ball not on a green to move it for someone else.  Heck. I’d just play ahead of him if that were the case , then give him crap about holding up the group because he’s now  playing last.  I think you have to fight fire with fire with guys like that.  Figure out his trigger and click it. 

[MakersMarsh3]

Carefully place it back in the exact spot. Same orientation etc

Replicate the lie the best you can. this can include raking a bunker if balls are that close

 

Can't clean or move the ball. You will sometime see guys put their ball down and away somewhere in this situation so that they don't clean the ball by accident or out of habit

 

Definitely a weird situation that happens at times

Edited June 7, 2021 by MakersMarsh3

[MakersMarsh3]

And that guy sucks.

 

This is a rule that should only be enforced in high level competition

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, MakersMarsh3 said:

Same orientation etc

No, this is not required.  @Sawgrass quoted the applicable interpretation a few posts above.  

 

4 minutes ago, MakersMarsh3 said:

Replicate the lie the best you can

This is allowed, but not required.  I cited the specific Interpretation a few posts earlier.

 

And I have to agree with @Mr. Bean, the permission to change the orientation of the ball seems a departure from the principle of playing the ball as it lies.  

[Sawgrass]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

And I have to agree with @Mr. Bean, the permission to change the orientation of the ball seems a departure from the principle of playing the ball as it lies.  

While I agree it is a departure, I approve of it.  Requiring the same orientation every time a ball is replaced would be difficult (and time consuming) to achieve, especially when there’s no obvious mud on the ball to guide you.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

While I agree it is a departure, I approve of it.  Requiring the same orientation every time a ball is replaced would be difficult (and time consuming) to achieve, especially when there’s no obvious mud on the ball to guide you.

 

C'mon, Sawgrass!! Everyone has a smartphone nowadays and can take a picture of the ball telling not only the spot but the orientation as well! And what a market place for a gimmick to be laid down around the ball to show the directions of the compass in order to make very sure the ball is replaced in EXACTLY the same way it was before lifting!!!

 

Oh yes, modern technology is capable of much more than just facebook and twitter 👏

 

P.S. If there is no visible mud on the ball how could the player know to re-orientate the ball..? 😉

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, MakersMarsh3 said:

And that guy sucks.

 

This is a rule that should only be enforced in high level competition

Yes the guy sucks. 

 

I am interested in which rule(s) you think should only be enforced in high level competition? And what you consider high level competition? 

funny thing it is way easier for everyone when you use all the rules rather pick and choosing some. 
 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am interested in which rule(s) you think should only be enforced in high level competition? 

 

Easy. All the Rules must be enforced in any competition. If not, it is not a golf competition.

[MakersMarsh3]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Yes the guy sucks. 

 

I am interested in which rule(s) you think should only be enforced in high level competition? And what you consider high level competition? 

funny thing it is way easier for everyone when you use all the rules rather pick and choosing some. 
 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Easy. All the Rules must be enforced in any competition. If not, it is not a golf competition.

I understand what both of y’all are saying for sure and I agree

 

But for most people, I don’t even know what % of rounds are completed under 100% correct use and application of the rules

 

There is a difference between a competitive and a regular round to me. 
I dont think Joe Schmoe or some beginner lady should be worried about a rule like this

Competitive golf needs the rigidity of the rules

I think the rules are really hard for a lot of people playing casual golf, even after simplification

 

 

This rule, one ball rule, I can’t think of a ton

Definitely a niche situation

2 within 2 isn’t in the rules but most high level events use it as a local rule

 

 

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, MakersMarsh3 said:

 

I understand what both of y’all are saying for sure and I agree

 

But for most people, I don’t even know what % of rounds are completed under 100% correct use and application of the rules

 

There is a difference between a competitive and a regular round to me. 
I dont think Joe Schmoe or some beginner lady should be worried about a rule like this

Competitive golf needs the rigidity of the rules

I think the rules are really hard for a lot of people playing casual golf, even after simplification

 

 

This rule, one ball rule, I can’t think of a ton

Definitely a niche situation

2 within 2 isn’t in the rules but most high level events use it as a local rule

 

 

 

 

 

Bean, correctly, meant that all base rules (of course not all local rules like the one ball rule) should be enforced. 
 

Sure some people don’t know all the rules. That’s too bad, but no reason to advocate abandoning a base rule such as the subject of this thread.  
 

You’re advocating chaos for well-meaning players. 

[NJBigFish22]

The rules of golf need a major editing.  For this situation, it should state, mark your ball in a correct manner and replace at the same position.  

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

The rules of golf need a major editing.  For this situation, it should state, mark your ball in a correct manner and replace at the same position.  

The Rules DID get a major editing and simplification in 2019.  And they do just what you suggest, and they even refer you to the specific rule that tells you what the correct manner is, and the correct manner of replacing it.

[SNIPERBBB]

6 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

The rules of golf need a major editing.  For this situation, it should state, mark your ball in a correct manner and replace at the same position.  

On the surface that would be easy but that doesn't work. There's whole trees of rules that have to be accounted for when changing rules.

[NJBigFish22]

7 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The Rules DID get a major editing and simplification in 2019.  And they do just what you suggest, and they even refer you to the specific rule that tells you what the correct manner is, and the correct manner of replacing it.

I know they were edited, just haven’t seen the changes since I’m just getting back in the game.  However I’m sure it could be done more.  Any rule book that’s has for example Rule 12: section 8 paragraph a, needs more editing still in my opinion.

 

I follow the rules to the best of my interpretation, but with a lot of new people coming to the game that have the attention span of a gnat, stupid simple is best.

Edited June 7, 2021 by NJBigFish22

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

I know they were edited, just haven’t seen the changes since I’m just getting back in the game.  However I’m sure it could be done more.  Any rule book that’s has for example Rule 12: section 8 paragraph a, needs more editing still in my opinion.

Rule 12 concerns bunkers, there are 3 sub-sections.  Not all that complicated.  Its generally a good idea to get up to date on the current rules before you start saying they need to be changed.

Although going back to the original 13 rules, that would definitely be a lot simpler:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1744.html

[rogolf]

32 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

I know they were edited, just haven’t seen the changes since I’m just getting back in the game.  However I’m sure it could be done more.  Any rule book that’s has for example Rule 12: section 8 paragraph a, needs more editing still in my opinion.

 

I follow the rules to the best of my interpretation, but with a lot of new people coming to the game that have the attention span of a gnat, stupid simple is best.

And of course, google is your friend and ally....

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Golf+Rules+Quick+Reference+2020&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUiauVyobxAhVK6p4KHUPtBZQQ1QIwFnoECBoQAQ&biw=1680&bih=907

[NJBigFish22]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Rule 12 concerns bunkers, there are 3 sub-sections.  Not all that complicated.  Its generally a good idea to get up to date on the current rules before you start saying they need to be changed.

Although going back to the original 13 rules, that would definitely be a lot simpler:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1744.html

Wow, I was just picking a number, as an example, not an actual rule.  Stating that rule books for all sports should be streamlined down to the basics, not multiple subsections.

[SNIPERBBB]

4 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

Wow, I was just picking a number, as an example, not an actual rule.  Stating that rule books for all sports should be streamlined down to the basics, not multiple subsections.

The rules in most books aren't that hard, except maybe NBA and college/pro football. Once you understand the basics, it makes everything else easier.