2021 Golf Ball Test

[ShowMe]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:48 PM, gioreeko said:

I love how you blame the ball, lol

So all golf balls perform the same for you?  Wow.  Lucky guy.  Then there's no reason for you to ever play Pro Vs when you can play a ball that costs half as much, right?

Edited August 8, 2021 by ShowMe

[North Butte]

6 hours ago, ShowMe said:

Any outside force that tries to manipulate the price set by the market, is by definition anti-capitalistic.  Titleist forcing retailers to sell their products at a given price, is trying to manipulate the price of the product.  That is anti-capitalistic and it hurts consumers.

 

You're just throwing words out there without regard to their actual meaning.

 

A company is not an "outside force" to "the market", it is the seller in the market. 

 

They do not "manipulate the price" they set the price at which the product is sold.

 

And companies trying to maintain the highest possible prices isn't "anti-capitalistic", it's the opposite. It's a very direct expression of capitalism. 

 

You guys keep trying to make this out as collusion even though there is no cooperation between the competing ball companies, either explicit or tacit. So you keep tossing out phrases that describe collusive behavior, because you think that's makes the companies sound evil.

 

This thread is truly beyond insane.

[Bad9]

18 hours ago, bluedot said:

Can you document your first sentence? It may be true, but I’d love to see real numbers.  A link will suffice; thanks in advance.

I posted the link here a few years back when Titleist issued its IPO and had to list its costs. I don't recall the details but advertising in all forms including pro endorsements was a much larger expenditure than R&D.

 

Edit: the 2016 IPO listed $46 million in R&D and $200 million in advertising/endorsements.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Bad9

[wantacigar]

14 hours ago, gsxrdn said:

 

IMO ProV1 is the best value ball out there if you are playing consistently and not losing ball. 1 ball can last you more than 2 rounds easily. But losing ProV1 sucks.

 

The same cannot be said for the Kirkland balls. I used up to 2 sleeves per round just due to ball getting easily scratch after bunker or high spin shot. I dont mind losing these vs losing ProV1

Do you blade every bunker or pitch shot?  I play mostly TP5, TM Tour Response and Kirlkland 3.2's.  Kind of a rotation.   I have not noticed any durability differences between the three balls.  I've played the same Ksig ball for 10 through 18 holes with just minor scuffs.  The same with the TM.  I've had TP5x's cut through the urethane by the 10th hole (posted pics of this in another thread).  

 

In the end, play what you like and spend what you like.  I've shot some great rounds with Top Flite D2 Feel's.  LOL.  Comes down to the Indian, not the arrow, your budget (if you have one) and what your confidence in playing whatever ball you tee up.

[The Pearl]

8 hours ago, ShowMe said:

  Titleist forcing retailers to sell their products at a given price, is trying to manipulate the price of the product.  That is anti-capitalistic and it hurts consumers.

 

 

 

 

Retailers are free to not sell Titleist products.  Retailers are also free to offer competitive products at lower prices. 

 

More importantly, despite Titleist "forcing" retailers to sell their products at a given price, the consumer is NOT FORCED to buy the product.  

 

You can invent any product you want and force any retailer to sell it at whatever price you demand they sell it at, but the public still makes the decision.  Everybody in this chain is "free" to make their own choice. 

 

 

 

 

[The Pearl]

8 hours ago, ShowMe said:

Callaway's and Titleist's profit margins are huge.  Granted, not as high as pharmaceutical companies' 76% profit margin, but a lot higher than most any other kind of manufacturer.

And that is the point.  Callaway and Titleist's metrics are not very different despite the hue and cry by you and others that they are price fixing.

 

You have twisted yourself into a pretzel. You can't make the argument that Callaway and Titleist have huge, yet largely the same profit margins, yet ONLY Titleist fix prices.

 

This is the problem with making emotional arguments, they eventually run into logical roadblocks. 

 

 

[nsxguy]

cap·i·tal·ism

/ˈkapədlˌizəm/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

noun: capitalism

1. an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

[bluedot]

13 hours ago, ShowMe said:

Well, I took a few econ courses when I was in college, both at the undergrad and the grad level.  With true capitalism, the market sets the price.  Not the government, not the manufacturer, not anybody but the market.  Any outside force that tries to manipulate the price set by the market, is by definition anti-capitalistic.  Titleist forcing retailers to sell their products at a given price, is trying to manipulate the price of the product.  That is anti-capitalistic and it hurts consumers.

 

With true capitalism, businesses will fail if they can't match the price set by the market.  It sucks, but it's true.  Over time, the market will reach an equilibrium, and a more equitable price point will be achieved.  I don't recall PGATSS losing the Titleist account in recent history, maybe it was just the ones in your area, but if they did, being the largest golf retail chain the country, it probably hurt Titleist more than it did them. 

 

Regarding private ownership, once I buy the balls from Titleist, they are my property and I get to determine at what price I want to sell them.  That is true capitalism.  Any time, let me repeat, ANY TIME a government or a manufacturer tries to manipulate the price of a good by forcing private owners of that good to sell it at a specific price, that is being anti-capitalistic.

 

True capitalism means true free markets.  Price manipulation of any kind is not a true free market and hurts the consumer in the end.  Welcome to the correct definition of a free market!

At the risk of heading down a rabbit hole, you are confusing capitalism with market structures; you are talking about capitalism as if it only exists in markets that are specifically perfect competition; that is only one of the possible market structures in a capitalist market economy, and the golf ball market clearly is NOT an example of perfect competition.  We could argue whether the golf ball market is monopolistic competition or an oligopoly, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway; in either case, there are barriers to entry into the market, the market is dominated by a few large firms, and competition is not "perfect", meaning, among other things, that sellers do have at least some control over pricing in the market.

 

Capitalism, as has been pointed out a couple of times now, is private ownership without government control, which the golf ball market clearly is.  If Acushnet and Ping decide that they will not sell their products to retailers who choose to sell those products below MSRP, that is the essence of private ownership, and, if anything, opens up opportunities for other suppliers to either enter the market or increase their market shares.  Ping and Acushnet have this policy to protect small retailers like cart accounts at clubs, who couldn't match the "loss leader" prices that a big box store could adopt just long enough to put the smaller competitors out of business.  That's in NO way anti-competitive, nor anti-capitalist, nor anti anything else.  It's a free market decision by a supplier acting on what they believe will be a successful long-term strategy in their own best interest.  THAT is a free market.

[gioreeko]

13 hours ago, ShowMe said:

So all golf balls perform the same for you?  Wow.  Lucky guy.  Then there's no reason for you to ever play Pro Vs when you play a ball that costs half as much, right?

I'm certainly not going to blame the ball that is played by the majority of pro golfers. I play Snell MTB-X right now, and am testing out the left dash Pro V1's. The better I get, the more precisely I know how a ball reacts, especially on approach shots, the better my score. I got down to a 5 handicap this year, my lowest ever, and knowing what the ball is going to do when it hits the green has been a big part of it.

[Nessism]

37 minutes ago, bluedot said:

At the risk of heading down a rabbit hole, you are confusing capitalism with market structures; you are talking about capitalism as if it only exists in markets that are specifically perfect competition; that is only one of the possible market structures in a capitalist market economy, and the golf ball market clearly is NOT an example of perfect competition.  We could argue whether the golf ball market is monopolistic competition or an oligopoly, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway; in either case, there are barriers to entry into the market, the market is dominated by a few large firms, and competition is not "perfect", meaning, among other things, that sellers do have at least some control over pricing in the market.

 

Capitalism, as has been pointed out a couple of times now, is private ownership without government control, which the golf ball market clearly is.  If Acushnet and Ping decide that they will not sell their products to retailers who choose to sell those products below MSRP, that is the essence of private ownership, and, if anything, opens up opportunities for other suppliers to either enter the market or increase their market shares.  Ping and Acushnet have this policy to protect small retailers like cart accounts at clubs, who couldn't match the "loss leader" prices that a big box store could adopt just long enough to put the smaller competitors out of business.  That's in NO way anti-competitive, nor anti-capitalist, nor anti anything else.  It's a free market decision by a supplier acting on what they believe will be a successful long-term strategy in their own best interest.  THAT is a free market.

 

I don't care what it's called but when a manufacturer is making more than a 50% margin on their product and they force their dealers to hold the line on pricing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I won't support.  Enjoy your $50/dozen golf balls. 

 

[dlygrisse]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:31 PM, Nessism said:

https://s21.q4cdn.com/797008351/files/doc_financials/2020/ar/P51452_ACUSHNET-HOLDINGS-CORP._10K_2021_V5.pdf

 

Cut and paste from Acushnet's financial report last year.

 

Key takeaway: their gross margin was over 50%.  This is beyond huge.  Also, they make note in the introductory comments of the report highlighting "Trust at the games highest level" in other words, the tour.  They spend heavily to get pros to use their products and it's working.

 

I can't find anything at the moment comparing their advertising spending on balls, but previous research showed that Titleist profit is hugely skewed toward the ball.  

 

 

 

So, what’s that a 14% EBITA?  That’s nice but I would call that or their gross margin beyond huge.  A lot a industries have bigger gross margins, but it’s really about the expenses after gross margin that determine your profit.  Quire frankly I thought their gross margin would have been bigger. 

[ShowMe]

1 hour ago, gioreeko said:

I'm certainly not going to blame the ball that is played by the majority of pro golfers. I play Snell MTB-X right now, and am testing out the left dash Pro V1's. The better I get, the more precisely I know how a ball reacts, especially on approach shots, the better my score. I got down to a 5 handicap this year, my lowest ever, and knowing what the ball is going to do when it hits the green has been a big part of it.

Wait, so now you're saying the ball DOES matter?  When I said the ball matters, you accused me of blaming the ball.  You should pick one side of the argument and stick with it.

[ShowMe]

Let's put it a different way, beyond the argument of capitalism.

 

Titleist and Ping hurt the consumer by not allowing retailers to sell their products at lower prices.  Sure they may "protect the small retailer" and more importantly to them, protect their huge profit margins, but it's at the expense of the consumer's wallet.  That said, it doesn't bother me as much when Ping does it, as their clubs are already reasonably priced compared to their competitors.

 

Price fixing by any manufacturer is anti-consumer.

[storm319]

30 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

I don't care what it's called but when a manufacturer is making more than a 50% margin on their product and they force their dealers to hold the line on pricing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I won't support.  Enjoy your $50/dozen golf balls. 

 

So can we assume that you will not be playing anything other than DTC in the future considering that all of the major ball OEMs practice what you are so aggressively opposing? 
 

Also, if you have any NIB from Bridgestone, Callaway, Taylormade, or Srixon, I am sure several members here would be willing to take them off your hands in order to help you stick it to those greedy, “anti”-capitalist cronies 😉

[The Pearl]

2 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

Let's put it a different way, beyond the argument of capitalism.

 

Titleist and Ping hurt the consumer by not allowing retailers to sell their products at lower prices.  Sure they may "protect the small retailer" and more importantly to them, protect their huge profit margins, but it's at the expense of the consumer's wallet.  That said, it doesn't bother me as much when Ping does it, as their clubs are already reasonably priced compared to their competitors.

 

Price fixing by any manufacturer is anti-consumer.

How does it hurt the consumer exactly?  Please explain this in detail.

 

A golfer today can play high quality equipment at a fair price, either new or used, and never own any Titleist or Ping gear, ever.

[The Pearl]

57 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

I don't care what it's called but when a manufacturer is making more than a 50% margin on their product and they force their dealers to hold the line on pricing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I won't support.  Enjoy your $50/dozen golf balls. 

 

 

Anybody can buy a sleeve or dozen Titleist golf balls.  Not everybody can get into a COSTCO unless they pay the membership toll.  How do you square this "exclusivity" practiced by Costco with your world view?

 

 

[Nessism]

9 minutes ago, storm319 said:

So can we assume that you will not be playing anything other than DTC in the future considering that all of the major ball OEMs practice what you are so aggressively opposing? 
 

Also, if you have any NIB from Bridgestone, Callaway, Taylormade, or Srixon, I am sure several members here would be willing to take them off your hands in order to help you stick it to those greedy, “anti”-capitalist cronies 😉

 

I've got something like 20 dozen balls laying in wait, the most expensive of which was less than $25/dozen.  Watch the sales and stock up.  

[Nessism]

8 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

Anybody can buy a sleeve or dozen Titleist golf balls.  Not everybody can get into a COSTCO unless they pay the membership toll.  How do you square this "exclusivity" practiced by Costco with your world view?

 

 

 

Budget Golf, Amazon, and a wide variety of different companies all offer great sales from time to time.  Srixon buy one get one is a real winner.  Rock Bottom Golf has had some killer "Amo Pack" (bulk pack) deals on Z Stars.  Pay attention and you can save money.  

 

Yeah, I understand that saving money on balls won't significantly impact most people's overall lifestyle, but to me it's a matter of principal to AVOID paying Pro V1 prices.  If you don't mind paying $50/dozen, then ignore my comments and carry on.  To each their own.

[ShowMe]

Played the Tour Speed this morning.  Only hit 6 fairways (my fault, not the ball's), but still managed to hit 14 greens.  It is a very good ball out of the thick Bermuda rough at my course.  Full iron shots out of the rough still go a good distance and hold the green very well.  Almost as well as full shots from the fairway.  Even the flyers (fliers?) held the green very well.  Easy to move left or right, too, for a relatively low-spin ball.  I'm very impressed with the ball.  Rumor has it that it performed well at the Ball Test, too.

[The Pearl]

4 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

Budget Golf, Amazon, and a wide variety of different companies all offer great sales from time to time.  Srixon buy one get one is a real winner.  Rock Bottom Golf has had some killer "Amo Pack" (bulk pack) deals on Z Stars.  Pay attention and you can save money.  

 

Yeah, I understand that saving money on balls won't significantly impact most people's overall lifestyle, but to me it's a matter of principal to AVOID paying Pro V1 prices.  If you don't mind paying $50/dozen, then ignore my comments and carry on.  To each their own.

You did not even attempt to answer the question.

[ShowMe]

17 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

How does it hurt the consumer exactly?  Please explain this in detail.

 

A golfer today can play high quality equipment at a fair price, either new or used, and never own any Titleist or Ping gear, ever.

You don't think that price-fixing hurts the consumer?  At a minimum, it hurts the Titleist fanboys.  I'll bet most Titleist consumers would be DELIGHTED if they could buy their products at a lower price, don't you think?

[Nessism]

7 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

You did not even attempt to answer the question.

 

You might want to do some research on your own instead of expecting me to answer regarding Costco's pricing policy's.  That said, for most items a non member can buy things off their website for a small cost increase.  Kirkland balls are 1/4 the cost of Pro V1's so with the increase for non members they would be roughly 1/3 the cost.  

[gioreeko]

51 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

Wait, so now you're saying the ball DOES matter?  When I said the ball matters, you accused me of blaming the ball.  You should pick one side of the argument and stick with it.

Of COURSE the ball matters, but you blaming one of the best balls in golf, the most widely used ball on tour, is laughable. Can you imagine playing someone that hits a crappy shot, and they say, "stupid ProV1!"

Edited August 8, 2021 by gioreeko

[The Pearl]

2 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

You might want to do some research on your own instead of expecting me to answer regarding Costco's pricing policy's.  That said, for most items a non member can buy things off their website for a small cost increase.  Kirkland balls are 1/4 the cost of Pro V1's so with the increase for non members they would be roughly 1/3 the cost.  

 

You just regurgitate the same junior high school argument.  Why don't you just admit that this is really about you not being able to buy Titleist balls cheaply like you do other balls.  This is obvious to everybody in the forum, but you.

[ShowMe]

Just now, gioreeko said:

Of COURSE the ball matters, but you blaming one of the best balls in golf, the most widely used ball on tour, is laughable.

So you think just because it works well for professional golfers, that it should also work well for me?  You think there's a correlation between professional golfers and the average golfer?  Really?

[Shushwap]

We really need to move this to general chat 

[gioreeko]

2 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

So you think just because it works well for professional golfers, that it should also work well for me?  You think there's a correlation between professional golfers and the average golfer?  Really?

yep, it's like saying because you can't make a basket with a professional Spalding ball, it's the balls fault. You may be playing the wrong model, but that's your fault, not the balls. Saying "it's the balls fault" implies there's some sort of defect with the ball, get it? What is the problem you're having with the ProV1 exactly? What's your driver SS?

Edited August 8, 2021 by gioreeko

[ShowMe]

2 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

You just regurgitate the same junior high school argument.  Why don't you just admit that this is really about you not being able to buy Titleist balls cheaply like you do other balls.  This is obvious to everybody in the forum, but you.

There you go getting all emotional again.  Didn't you tell me that "This is the problem with making emotional arguments, they eventually run into logical roadblocks." 

[The Pearl]

Just now, ShowMe said:

There you go getting all emotional again.  Didn't you tell me that "This is the problem with making emotional arguments, they eventually run into logical roadblocks." 

 

Nice try.  

[ShowMe]

Just now, gioreeko said:

yep, it's like saying because you can't make a basket with a professional Spalding ball, it's the balls fault. You may be playing the wrong model, but that's your fault, not the balls. Saying "it's the balls fault" implies there's some sort of defect with the ball, get it?

So if I hit Pro Vs 20 yards shorter with my driver and 10 yards shorter with my irons than say the Bridgestone Tour BX that I normally play (which is what happens), it's my fault?