Motorcycle Move

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

This makes me wonder how Phil Mickelson got it done. Great hands?

Well first and foremost he is Phil. He gets it cupped at the top because of how much he hinges his wrists (which for most ams is a hard to recover from, which is another reason many ams would benefit from a flat or very slightly bowed wrist at the top), but his wrist has straightened out significantly by P6. The more you do it early, the less you have to do it late when things are moving much faster. If you have a ton of talent and a ton of time you can make it work, if you are a casual golfer your success rate will be much lower.

[tthomasgolfer605]

18 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Well first and foremost he is Phil. He gets it cupped at the top because of how much he hinges his wrists (which for most ams is a hard to recover from, which is another reason many ams would benefit from a flat or very slightly bowed wrist at the top), but his wrist has straightened out significantly by P6. The more you do it early, the less you have to do it late when things are moving much faster. If you have a ton of talent and a ton of time you can make it work, if you are a casual golfer your success rate will be much lower.

When you speak of "ams" are you referring to club/average golfers? I'm a plus handicap when I play a lot, (which I don't anymore) but I have no idea if I do the motorcycle move. Sorry about the quality, but can you see anything? 

[Snarkesor]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Dropping the left arm takes the left arm and shaft off the plane and requires a compensation to contact the ball. The ball is out in front of you not down at your feet. 

Who said anything about dropping the left arm? Left arm if anything works up relative to the torso as the wrists shallow the shaft. The left arm dropping is a steepener.

[Snarkesor]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Dropping the left arm takes the left arm and shaft off the plane and requires a compensation to contact the ball. The ball is out in front of you not down at your feet. 

Who said anything about dropping the left arm? Left arm if anything works up relative to the torso as the wrists shallow the shaft. The left arm dropping is a steepener.

[Snarkesor]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Dropping the left arm takes the left arm and shaft off the plane and requires a compensation to contact the ball. The ball is out in front of you not down at your feet. 

Who said anything about dropping the left arm? Left arm if anything works up relative to the torso as the wrists shallow the shaft. The left arm dropping is a steepener.

[Zitlow]

On 10/20/2021 at 5:53 PM, Snarkesor said:

Who said anything about dropping the left arm? Left arm if anything works up relative to the torso as the wrists shallow the shaft. The left arm dropping is a steepener.

 

You don't want to drop the left arm, pull with the left arm, push with the right arm, harpoon the ball with the butt of the club, ring the church bell or tug a rope. 

 

His right side was paralyzed so he's demonstrating a throw with his left shoulder, arm and hand. Similar motion to throwing a football or baseball. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Zitlow

[glk]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

When you speak of "ams" are you referring to club/average golfers? I'm a plus handicap when I play a lot, (which I don't anymore) but I have no idea if I do the motorcycle move. Sorry about the quality, but can you see anything? 

Your left hand is noticeably more flexed than at setup. So yeah, somewhere in the swing you are twisting the shaft.

[tthomasgolfer605]

5 minutes ago, glk said:

Your left hand is noticeably more flexed than at setup. So yeah, somewhere in the swing you are twisting the shaft.

Thanks. I'm curious because it's something I've never thought about.

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Thanks. I'm curious because it's something I've never thought about.

Your arm structure/connection is pretty solid as well, so likely not a huge issue for you, especially if you were + at some point. 

[Snarkesor]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

You don't want to drop the left arm, pull with the left arm, push with the right arm, harpoon the ball with the butt of the club, ring the church bell or tug a rope. 

 

His right side was paralyzed so he's demonstrating a throw with his left shoulder, arm and hand. Similar motion to throwing a football or baseball. 

 

I agree with all of that. Perhaps I misunderstood you, I was under the impression that you were saying that lowering the left arm is a part of the motorcycle move.

[baudi]

1. Reversed motor cycle is a drill. Not an integral part in a swing. Anyonyone who’ has no clue about could be made more aware of flexion / extension; ulnar / radial deviation and supination. 
2. Shaft does not twist though it rotates gradually; 

3. Gradual shaft rotation serves more purposes than just squaring the face.

 

Look at Mike Austin’s 1/8; 1/4 and 3/8 swing. It is all there (I could be wrong here)compare it to Joe  Dante’s wrist action. I see many similarities.

 

In the old days there were terms like downc0ck and fore arm rotation. Somehow all related. There is a video of John Bertrand ( and a book) where he discusses Hogans swing via the wording of John Schlee. Bertrand shows a similar action like RMC but for explanation only. 
I think Tyler’s explanation of RMC in the book could use some additional conditions. I like his book btw.
 

TLDR version: Just saying that RMC is just another rough explanatory means to an end. 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnrobison]

8 hours ago, baudi said:

1. Reversed motor cycle is a drill. Not an integral part in a swing. Anyonyone who’ has no clue about could be made more aware of flexion / extension; ulnar / radial deviation and supination. 
2. Shaft does not twist though it rotates gradually; 

3. Gradual shaft rotation serves more purposes than just squaring the face.

 

Look at Mike Austin’s 1/8; 1/4 and 3/8 swing. It is all there (I could be wrong here)compare it to Joe  Dante’s wrist action. I see many similarities.

 

In the old days there were terms like downc0ck and fore arm rotation. Somehow all related. There is a video of John Bertrand ( and a book) where he discusses Hogans swing via the wording of John Schlee. Bertrand shows a similar action like RMC but for explanation only. 
I think Tyler’s explanation of RMC in the book could use some additional conditions. I like his book btw.
 

TLDR version: Just saying that RMC is just another rough explanatory means to an end. 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you differentiate between twist and rotate, please? I understand twisting as the torque about the center of the axis of the shaft which occurs in a good swing, so just want to clarify.

[Krt22]

I wonder what Tony is talking about

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVSxyUvgR7a/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[glk]

Someone notify Phil Cheetham that his Phd dissertation - The relationship of club handle twist velocity to selected biomechanical characteristics of the golf drive -  has been canceled.   He used the AMM system to measure both body movements and club shaft - and yes it does indeed twist during the swing.  AMG has produced vids on this via GEARS measurements too.    And why would the reverse motorcycle be a drill but not part of the swing?   What additional conditions are needed?

 

https://www.philcheetham.com/media/Phillip-Cheetham-Doctoral-Dissertation-2014.pdf

Edited October 21, 2021 by glk

[PracticeSwinger]

33 minutes ago, glk said:

Someone notify Phil Cheetham that his Phd dissertation - The relationship of club handle twist velocity to selected biomechanical characteristics of the golf drive -  has been canceled.   He used the AMM system to measure both body movements and club shaft - and yes it does indeed twist during the swing.  AMG has produced vids on this via GEARS measurements too.    And why would the reverse motorcycle be a drill but not part of the swing?   What additional conditions are needed?

 

https://www.philcheetham.com/media/Phillip-Cheetham-Doctoral-Dissertation-2014.pdf

Of course - the obvious rebuttal to Tyler's work, Sasho's paper, AMG gears measurements and Cheetham dissertation is : who wants to read and obsorb all of these biomecanics conclusions when all you need to know is that Mike Austin once said that you can unleash the release with stored energy from accumulated levers and/or that Jackie Burke said to Steve Elkington that any conscious thought is slowing down your flow... you get the idea...

Edited October 21, 2021 by MtlJayMan

[Zitlow]

Austin had several power sources. He wound his right leg CW in his backswing.

 

Maintained the wind into his downswing. 

 

 

 

Released it just before impact as he posted up. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Zitlow

[gators78]

I wrestle with this concept and specifically the path-to-face relationship, a lot. I do think it is an answer for the vast majority of golfers, and if you're searching out tips, this is one of the better ones. 

 

But there sure are a lot of good players that didn't square it to the path that early. 

[baudi]

6 hours ago, johnrobison said:

Would you differentiate between twist and rotate, please? I understand twisting as the torque about the center of the axis of the shaft which occurs in a good swing, so just want to clarify

As verbs the difference between rotate and twist

 is that rotate is to spin, turn, or revolve while twist is to turn the ends of something, usually thread, rope etc, in opposite directions, often using force.  

 

For me the issue is not if rotary action around the shaft axis takes place during the swing but how the effect is created. There are many ways. This leads to my conclusion RMC being a subjective action. On a motorcycle using the wrist is mainly flexion/extension.  Tell an unexperienced  player to go with this action and await the pulls or wrist injury to come along if the motion does not integrate in the swing. Twisting becomes Jerking. 

 

Hence in my first post you can read different angle as a state of force. Gamma torque is rooted for the shaft is rooted in the rotator cuff.  Someway somehow pivot force and arm speed must be coupled in a way that the full lead arm controls. 

 It is my untested belief(!) that if the three torques of the lead arm are correlated and produce flow of the swing if adjusted accordingly.

 

Last, I use hackmotion all the time and wish that an extra sensor for chs and face closure could be added and matched. HM is a great tool to become aware certain release patterns. 

 

 

 

 

[Zitlow]

4 hours ago, gators78 said:

I wrestle with this concept and specifically the path-to-face relationship, a lot. I do think it is an answer for the vast majority of golfers, and if you're searching out tips, this is one of the better ones. 

 

But there sure are a lot of good players that didn't square it to the path that early. 

 

Great catch. If the swing "experts" were to analyze guys like Sam Snead and Austin using their high tech gadgets they would have to rethink their dogma. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Zitlow

[Golfbeat]

6 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Great catch. If the swing "experts" were to analyze guys like Sam Snead and Austin using their high tech gadgets they would have to rethink their dogma. 

 

Hardly a dogma if 95% of current tour players do it.

[Krt22]

8 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Hardly a dogma if 95% of current tour players do it.

Also crazy to think 2D stills and super grainy GIFs somehow disprove modern tech lol. I though Zitlow was coming around and actually trying to have a healthy discussion, it's quite clear that is not the case and this is his old MO of obscure whataboutism.  

[nsxguy]

Exceptions don't disprove a "rule".

 

Especially one that's simply an accepted way of doing something (more) efficiently.

[Zitlow]

9 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Hardly a dogma if 95% of current tour players do it.

 

What if 95% of tour players are adhering to a false paradigm about the most efficient way to release the clubhead? Just saying. 

[Zitlow]

Would his clubface be considered to be open or does he need the motorcycle move? How would he release it from here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Zitlow

[gators78]

54 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Also crazy to think 2D stills and super grainy GIFs somehow disprove modern tech lol. I though Zitlow was coming around and actually trying to have a healthy discussion, it's quite clear that is not the case and this is his old MO of obscure whataboutism.  

 

Yea, different person here, I am just trying to have a healthy discussion. Would I take Max Homa's swing tomorrow? Absolutely. I'm trying to do that in my own swing. 

 

Bryson's clubface looks almost identical to Snead. Matt Wolf certainly doesn't have the face turned down. Maybe the answer is just they're freaks and time it well, but those clubfaces are almost 90* different. Maybe I'm just asking what those guys do to get it back on the ball.

 

[baudi]

TNX@Gators78. Will print Cam Champ put it up in the shop. 

[glk]

Every swing rotates the shaft.     Issue is doing it effectively.    Poor swings do it too little or in opposite directions of what is needed to align face to path near impact.

 

Human anatomy hasn't changed much in the last 100 years.   To ascribe that people in the past could perform significantly different motions is inaccurate.    We have a limited number of ways to change the face orientation - rotate the shaft, lean the shaft, and change the handle height.     Shaft lean toward the target opens the face.    Raising the handle opens the face.    Good swings have shaft lean toward the target and very few have even been able to return the shaft to the setup position with virtually all swings having some degree of raising the handle at impact (relative to setup).   So two of the three open the face and happen in good swings.       Rotating the shaft has two options - twist the handle or supinate the lead forearm.   Handle twist is done predominately in the swing when the lead wrist is in radial and supination is predominately done when the lead wrist is in ulnar.  A third options exists but isn't seen in good swings - rotating the trail shoulder into internal rotation thru release - the classic stall/flip pattern.   Again, this stuff has been measured - it is not subjective nor have players in the past used other options.

 

2D pictures at various angles is not a way to prove anything.    Again, this stuff has been measured via AMM, GEARS.

A better question would be who, with a good swing, doesn't motorcycle?    And frankly even in poor swings a motorcycle can exist, it's just that it is insufficient to "close" the face enough to enable the golfer to not stall/flip and to produce shaft lean.  I take it few have bothered to view Tyler's video from his talk at the WGFS 2018 on arm movements of elite golfers - take the free trial - you see even in 3D graphs of high cappers there exists some motorcycle.

 

And concerning face to path during the swing - the face is opening during the backswing and what is called closed is just less open.     

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by glk

[Golfbeat]

The motorcycle move is executed by more than 95% of tour players. Some do it earlier and some do it later. Tour players are also incredibly gifted and can get away with doing it later. Most amateurs could benefit from doing it earlier is the theory these days because they don’t have magic hands and are not able to consistantly square the face by doing it later.

[Zitlow]

@gators78 Sam's club face and shaft are close to being perfectly on plane.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Zitlow

[golfarb1]

When golfers attempt to change their swing , they are really creating new neural pathways in their brains to replace their ingrained incorrect neural pathways . At first these NEW neural pathways are weak and require  numerous CORRECT repetitions to become stronger .  The  problem in learning a new motor skill is not JUST learning the new correct movement , but also not reverting back to the old, ingrained movement . 
By making regular speed ,regular length swings , it is inevitable that golfers will revert back to those  old  incorrect , neural pathways. 
So the first thing to do when making swing changes is to DITCH the driver and only practice short slow swings . When you are consistently compressing the ball with a good flight path , then and only then increase the speed and length of your swing. 
This brings up the issue with hitting indoors into a net. Hitting into a net does not give you proper feedback whether  are really compressing the ball compared to grass. And without more sophisticated technology , you do not have a good idea on your flight path when hitting into a net