Motorcycle Move

[Zitlow]

There are a lot of posts about the motorcycle move. Can anyone tell me the purpose of the motorcycle move?

 

 

[Scottbox]

Go up to the top of your backswing. Slightly flex your lead wrist so it's flat, which closes the face slightly. That's it. You can do this in other parts of the swing, but this is the easiest to work on. 

[ferrispgm]

Helps to square the face early so you don't have to manipulate and square late with your hands which leads to a lot of bad shots....also helps you to shallow the club earlier. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

There are a lot of posts about the motorcycle move. Can anyone tell me the purpose of the motorcycle move?

 

 

Eh.  Most good players do it to a small extent coming down naturally.  The contrived bowed wrist at the top however , isnt a natural move in my opinion for most people.  And is counter productive if you’re a trail hand dominant player. The motorcycle move alone can only work if you are dragging the lead hand through.  
 

If you see the swing as hitting the ball with your right palm then you can’t also have the left wrist that bowed and possibly out turn that shut of a face.  

 

min my opinion a cocked left wrist so that it’s flat at the top is infinitely more playable than a bowed left wrist.  
 

 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Eh.  Most good players do it to a small extent coming down naturally.  The contrived bowed wrist at the top however , isnt a natural move in my opinion for most people.  And is counter productive if you’re a trail hand dominant player. The motorcycle move alone can only work if you are dragging the lead hand through.  
 

If you see the swing as hitting the ball with your right palm then you can’t also have the left wrist that bowed and possibly out turn that shut of a face.  

 

min my opinion a cocked left wrist so that it’s flat at the top is infinitely more playable than a bowed left wrist.  
 

 

 

Depending on your grip your wrist may be flat or slightly bowed/cupped at the top, but the static position of the wrist isn't as important as what happens dynamically Most ams who pull the handle down extend the lead wrist from the top, which both opens the face and steepens the shaft. Flexing the wrist from the top (with some ulnar deviation) is important to prevent those two things, which are almost universally bad. 

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

 

Depending on your grip your wrist may be flat or slightly bowed/cupped at the top, but the static position of the wrist isn't as important as what happens dynamically Most ams who pull the handle down extend the lead wrist from the top, which both opens the face and steepens the shaft. Flexing the wrist from the top (with some ulnar deviation) is important to prevent those two things, which are almost universally bad. 

Yep. I agree with that part.  The coming down part.  But you’d be shocked how many so called experts  have seen my cupped to flat wrist at the top and commented “ xyz blah blah blah you need the motorcycle move “. And this is always during an oems fitting day or something.  As i am not seeking advice. Lol.  It’s just become an eye roll phrase to me I guess.  There’s definitely some merit. But for instance. I can bow my wrist to a similar position as DJ at the top if I want to.  But it’s a literal nightmare to outrun that position to the ball and pray it’s not a 60 yard hook.  
 

I always ask those who bring that up to me “ how much you want it flexed “ to try to get them to quantify it.  And it always gets the “ as much as you can “ answer.  Which like I said is a non starter.  
 

I generally like the feel of cupped for a fade and flat for a draw.  ( at the top ). The exact position may vary swing to swing. But ballflight is king.  And it works for me. 
 

so yes I agree. I think it’s just overused and under explained.  And that’s from me. An idiot.  I only know trial and error.  For me. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by bladehunter

[Zitlow]

I have some time on my hands. Last month I had a kidney stone and developed an infection which turned into cepsis. Was in the hospital for a week getting antibiotic infusions. Was getting back to normal then I came down with covid which lasted for a little over a week. A total of two weeks from the time I tested positive until I got back a negative test. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Zitlow

[bladehunter]

8 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I have some time on my hands. Last month I had a kidney stone and developed an infection which turned into cepsis. Was in the hospital for a week getting antibiotic infusions. Was getting back to normal then I came down with covid which lasted for a little over a week. A total of two weeks from the time I tested positive until I got back a negative test. 

 

I'm a big fan of Mike Austin who along with his protégé Mike Dunaway were super long and very straight hitters, they didn't jump out of their shoes or bust a gut to do it. If you want to know the truth I wouldn't have stuck with Austin's teaching if I hadn't gotten to play golf with Dunaway and see the swing in action up in Rogers and Fayetteville AR. 

 

The problem with both of them is in a lot of their teaching they weren't doing what they said they did. Austin was very protective of his intellectual properties and didn't want to give his secrets away. Austin changed his ideas on the hand action after he had a stroke in 1989 at age 79 which muddied up the water even more. 

 

@bladehunter  Austin started palmar flexing his left wrist in transition which was a reaction to his shallowing the shaft. He didn't release the club with his rotation. His rotation put his arms into position to release the club head. 

 

 

He was slinging the club around the ulnar 

bone at the end of his left arm without impedance (friction). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow.  Glad you got over all that.   Sounds like quite the ordeal.    And kidney stones are a B.  My father in law is dealing with one right now.  And the damn thing moves around.  One day it hurts. Bad. One day it’s fine . I think they’re going to “ crush it “ next week if he doesn’t pass it before then.  

[Nard_S]

I'm starting to think it's more a result than a cause, that the intent to fire hands the right way in the right direction enables this. It's like Chinese finger cuffs, force it and it won't release. The lead arm has the yeoman's work from the top but the trail is trying to straighten too. The trail  pushes away and causes the flex. When I worry about everything other than flexion, and get those better, the flexion happens. If i go "flex now" and there's too much navel gazing about it, bad things start to happen, bad things get covered over. Guys seem like they are consciously doing it (MM) but maybe it's just muscles getting lined up to fire. I've been there & done a bit of rabbit hole diving on it. I'm working on more consequential things now.

 

Ps: @Zitlow, hope you come through and fully mend.

[Zitlow]

The kidney stone and cepsis were bad but the covid was a bump in the road. 

[golfarb1]

Kidney stone pain is  the very definition of exquisite pain. But even kidney stones did not exempt me from the draft during Vietnam. 
 

Dustin Johnson is an anomaly even for tour   

players . He has a strong grip but is able to achieve an extremely bowed lead  wrist at the top. Trying to achieve a  bowed wrist position similar to Dustin is counterproductive for those who lack his extreme mobility. 


Using Hackmotion trail wrist stats , the average pro has his trail wrist  in extension  at setup.  During the backswing he increases this trail extension 

considerably . In early transition the amount of this extension increases a little more and remains that way well  into the downswing . Late in the downswing his trail wrist starts to flex, but is still extended at impact. 
One  important concept to emphasize is that the trail wrist is more extended at impact than it was at setup. 
 

 

[baudi]

 

 

The purpose of RMC is a motion in reaction to create/maintain momentum in transition. Two critical elements are the take away and the top of the swing. RMC is part of a coupled action. IMHO it cannot be judged on its own merit(s). It is rooted in the rotator cuff. 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

But for instance. I can bow my wrist to a similar position as DJ at the top if I want to.  But it’s a literal nightmare to outrun that position to the ball and pray it’s not a 60 yard hook.  
 

I always ask those who bring that up to me “ how much you want it flexed “ to try to get them to quantify it.  And it always gets the “ as much as you can “ answer.  Which like I said is a non starter.  

 

10 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

He has a strong grip but is able to achieve an extremely bowed lead  wrist at the top. Trying to achieve a  bowed wrist position similar to Dustin is counterproductive for those who lack his extreme mobility. 

Exactly, it is a matchup thing. I think many people blindly advocate for the "as much as possible" solution because so many people struggle with face control/open face issues etc. Not wise to throw that at just anyone though. DJ is only useful as an extreme example of things like clubface control and lower body rotation/clearing, an unambiguous "here is a LOT of something" to illustrate a point, not to be a target to achieve. Plenty of guys on tour, including several major champions, with cupped left wrists that would motorcycle their way right off the tour if they were told they needed to do that move. 

[caeye0710]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I agree with that part.  The coming down part.  But you’d be shocked how many so called experts  have seen my cupped to flat wrist at the top and commented “ xyz blah blah blah you need the motorcycle move “. And this is always during an oems fitting day or something.  As i am not seeking advice. Lol.  It’s just become an eye roll phrase to me I guess.  There’s definitely some merit. But for instance. I can bow my wrist to a similar position as DJ at the top if I want to.  But it’s a literal nightmare to outrun that position to the ball and pray it’s not a 60 yard hook.  
 

I always ask those who bring that up to me “ how much you want it flexed “ to try to get them to quantify it.  And it always gets the “ as much as you can “ answer.  Which like I said is a non starter.  
 

I generally like the feel of cupped for a fade and flat for a draw.  ( at the top ). The exact position may vary swing to swing. But ballflight is king.  And it works for me. 
 

so yes I agree. I think it’s just overused and under explained.  And that’s from me. An idiot.  I only know trial and error.  For me. 

I’m the same, but also the opposite. If I start using flexion in my left wrist to shallow the club, it’s all wipey fades for me. My own version of a “literal nightmare”

[dsmil]

It's used to close the face more, and can help with shallowing the club.  There is also a feel vs. real aspect to the move.  You might feel like doing the move will automatically move you to a flexed (bowed) lead wrist at the top, when it's really just going from slight extension (cupped) to flat.  I like to feel this move on my driver because I struggle with fading it too much.  It's definitely worth trying if you struggle to close the face, and you can ease up on it if you are getting low hooks.

[Seamus_McDuff]

Watch Minjee Lee. It’s very subtle. 
 

 

 

[tm3]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

The contrived bowed wrist at the top however , isnt a natural move in my opinion for most people.  And is counter productive if you’re a trail hand dominant player.  
 

 

Wasn't the bow at the top what Tom Lehman got so roundly criticized for, ie the "Lehman Claw?"

[xkilgorextroutx]

6 hours ago, Seamus_McDuff said:

Watch Minjee Lee. It’s very subtle. 
 

 

 

Yes it's subtle but it's definitely there. I know Monte talks about that slight move to help shallowing in a number of his videos.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, xkilgorextroutx said:

Yes it's subtle but it's definitely there. I know Monte talks about that slight move to help shallowing in a number of his videos.

Yes, even if it's a subtle amount, its far better than a subtle amount in the other direction. 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, buggyblues said:

 

Unless you're sequenced up in such a way the centripetal load and automatic drop into the slot are one inseparable dynamic getting shallower instead of steep.   If they are, and it's an advanced move for some, more cup is allowed as the pivot sequence will take it right back out, but you better have good feet and not this jumping off the ground business. 

Yeah that isn't a real thing. The golf swing is learned, there is nothing automatic about any part of it.

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, buggyblues said:

 

Maybe 'allowed' to drop into the slot is a better word than 'automatic', and yes it's a learned skill and I did not mean to imply they weren't, but to otherwise suggest nothing within a golf swing is, or can become, automatic,  if that was your suggestion, is just plain inaccurate.   

Engraining a motion and having something happen "automatically" are two different things. Properly shallowing the shaft is something 95%+ of golfers don't do correctly, let alone "automatically".  Even the best golfers in the world continually use exaggeration drills to deal with the more counter intuitive parts of the swing, so even for them it isn't quite automatic. 

[Valtiel]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Engraining a motion and having something happen "automatically" are two different things. Properly shallowing the shaft is something 95%+ of golfers don't do correctly, let alone "automatically".  Even the best golfers in the world continually use exaggeration drills to deal with the more counter intuitive parts of the swing, so even for them it isn't quite automatic. 

*Alex Noren intensifies*

[liquorandpoker]

My view - any intentional rolling back of the trail wrist during the downswing is counter to the mentum of the club.  The only way I can see seeking out this wrist movement is if it is a side effect of pressuring the shaft on the downswing with the trail hand.

[xkilgorextroutx]

9 hours ago, liquorandpoker said:

My view - any intentional rolling back of the trail wrist during the downswing is counter to the mentum of the club.  The only way I can see seeking out this wrist movement is if it is a side effect of pressuring the shaft on the downswing with the trail hand.

 

Monte disagrees. And I think based on his track record in coaching and instruction, many will be inclined to go with his thoughts on the matter. Does everyone need it? Perhaps not, but I'd hazard a guess that more folks than not should find a way to incorporate it.

[Zitlow]

In my view the motorcycle move is a manipulation to square the face to compensate for another golf swing sacred cow that body rotation releases the club. 

[DShepley]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:33 AM, Seamus_McDuff said:

Watch Minjee Lee. It’s very subtle. 
 

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that this move is not a conscious effort and rather a result of something else.  She probably doesn't even realize she does it.  The issue in making it a conscious effort, in my view, creates a couple problems.  #1, making a focus on one move in transition will likely have an effect on your tempo (we get slower if we try to instruct ourselves as we perform a motion). #2 It is very easy to overdo the motion creating conditions that are hard to recover from.

[liquorandpoker]

On 10/18/2021 at 4:56 PM, Zitlow said:

The kidney stone and cepsis were bad but the covid was a bump in the road. 

 

👏💪👍

[liquorandpoker]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

In my view the motorcycle move is a manipulation to square the face to compensate for another golf swing sacred cow that body rotation releases the club. 

 

I agree with what I think you are saying.  One contrived move compensating for another.  

 

To me there is nothing natural about either of these and both can be counter to the way the body wants to work / the most efficient movement of the clubhead.

[Golfbeat]

2 hours ago, xkilgorextroutx said:

 

Monte disagrees. And I think based on his track record in coaching and instruction, many will be inclined to go with his thoughts on the matter. Does everyone need it? Perhaps not, but I'd hazard a guess that more folks than not should find a way to incorporate it.

 

Not only Monte. Most of the good instructors these days.

[Zitlow]

17 minutes ago, liquorandpoker said:

 

I agree with what I think you are saying.  One contrived move compensating for another.  

 

To me there is nothing natural about either of these and both can be counter to the way the body wants to work / the most efficient movement of the clubhead.

 

It's just another extraneous move to compensate for other extraneous moves. 

 

Shallowing is something people talk about that I think is valid because it adds speed/energy to the club. It gives you a running start to the ball.