Low vs High Bounce Wedges. Which?

[Mobert19]

so what would be the purpose of a specialty club like the Vokey LBK?

[Pepperturbo]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm tracking what you are saying but the bigger issue is that it seems that most don't even know the proper use of a wedge to begin with which makes all the subtlety of grinds, bounce, etc. irrelevant because none of it matters if the golfer thinks that partial wedge shots are supposed to be struck ball first.  The bounce angle and such is not engaged if the shaft is leaned forward and most aren't noticing that to even expose the bounce, sole grind, etc. that the shaft is roughly vertical or only slightly leaned forward at impact and that is a very different strike when compared to an iron being stuck ball first with a much more forward leaning shaft.  

There's plenty of truth in your bigger issue, and all grinds are not for all golfers.  Unfortunately, I don't see addressing such issues changing much, here.  If they haven't already purchased, too often readers are too excited to pay much attention to what is said here.  Their minds are singing, oh boy, can't wait to save strokes.  Then this happens: golfers get their newfangled specialty grind wedges haven't a remote clue how to use those grinds, so stinky shots result, like a dastardly sha*k, skull or chunk-o-rama. 

[RobS]

2 hours ago, Mobert19 said:

so what would be the purpose of a specialty club like the Vokey LBK?

Low bounce with a wide sole keeps the leading edge low in the square position for playing off of tight lies around the green.  As you open the face, it increases the bounce significantly which makes it effective out of bunkers and thick rough.  Very popular for tour like conditions where you see firm, tight lies around the green but have deep, soft sand bunkers.

[Mobert19]

5 minutes ago, RobS said:

Low bounce with a wide sole keeps the leading edge low in the square position for playing off of tight lies around the green.  As you open the face, it increases the bounce significantly which makes it effective out of bunkers and thick rough.  Very popular for tour like conditions where you see firm, tight lies around the green but have deep, soft sand bunkers.

 OK. So for discusions sake, I have a 58D12 and a 58 LBK. I play Bermuda. I like lob wedge around the green and bunkers. But also use it for full shots 85-90yds.

Mostly square shots but sometimes flops when called for. 

 

Which one do I choose?

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mobert19

[RobS]

5 minutes ago, Mobert19 said:

 OK. So for discusions sake, I have a 58D12 and a 58 LBK. I play Bermuda. I like lob wedge around the green and bunkers. But also use it for full shots 85-90yds.

Mostly square shots but sometimes flops when called for. 

 

Which one do I choose?

I would choose the 58D.  It will be more forgiving on full shots.  It's a good bunker club with plenty of bounce.  It has relief and trailing edge relief for flop shots.  Specific to bermuda, it will perform better around the greens when you are into the grain.  You can use any wedge down grain but into the grain, bermuda can grab the leading edge on a LB wedge where the bounce on the D will help keep the wedge moving.

[sheamclkel]

This is all personal preference 100% nothing else. If you have the opportunity go try out the 2 extremes and see what happens for you. In my experience more bounce is more forgiving so I would tend to lean that way. If you just gonna shoot the puck and buy, nothing wrong with an option right in the middle!

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, bluedot said:

35* of bounce?
 

Can you post a link that verifies this?  Everything I found says that the C3i has 12* of bounce, so a slight discrepancy there…

Maybe twelve degrees of leading edge bounce with a normal amount of handle lean, but anyone that has handled a 55* C3i wedge knows that if you expose the full amount of bounce possible on it that the club has WAYYY more than 12 degrees of bounce and is much closer to 30 than it is 12 I assure you.  C3i instructs players to play their clubs with a square face but I treat it like a normal wedge and don't mind the leading edge rising well up off the ground when the face is open as it give me more confidence that the club will not dig.  Max bounce would be measured with the shaft at 90* 

 

Even though the shaft isn't at 90* in this still frame you can see the angle that is created by the trailing edge of the club if you open the face and it is way more than 12* and this is on the 65* wedge as it is way more pronounced on the 55* wedge but if you open the face and rest the club on the trailing edge even on the 65 degree wedge it is still around 20 to 25* of bounce. 

 

Sure with the wedge in a square faced position as seen below the bounce is closer to 12 degrees but as you open the face more and more of the trailing edge would be more exposed and as I said it is even more pronounced on the 55* wedge: 

 

 

When I get home in about a week I will take a picture of my wedge in the max bounce orientation and you can see for yourself on the 55*. What I am wondering is why of everything that I posted that the only thing you chose to go after was the bounce of a wedge when you thought I was a "troll" and making "head scratcher" comments previously?  

[Righty to Lefty]

16 hours ago, iknowbagu said:

What's wrong with launching beaver pelts? I take massive divots myself and consider myself a pretty good wedge player. But that's also why I always lean towards a higher bounce wedge. 

You may very well be a good wedge player, but you could be better if you used the club as it was designed to be used.  A wedge should not rip up a divot unless you are hitting a full shot in which case you can't open the face and expose the bounce to begin with.  You could putt with the toe of your putter and be a good putter, but you would be a better putter if you used the putter as it was designed to be used.   

 

17 hours ago, North Butte said:

I am a total believer that "bounce is your friend" and that lots of people play wedges with less bounce than would be ideal.

 

So it's totally nuts but two of my three wedges are Vokey SM8 with the M grind and "8 degrees" of bounce (Vokey specs effective bounce, not measured bounce angle). Compared to wedges I've used in the past, they got a moderate bounce angle at best and a fair bit of heel-toe relief. But I found a super cheap deal on these brand-new-in-plastic and decided to give them a try. My third wedge is a Vokey 12-degree D grind. 

 

No idea how or why but they work just as well for me as the double-digit bounce wedges I've always used in the past. Go figure.

 

P.S. Part of the explanation may be that after years of trying to stop leaning my shaft forward at impact and practicing a "use the bounce" short-game technique it's all finally starting to take hold. Lord knows I've been trying to do that for nearly a decade, with intermittent success. About time.

I used to be a crap wedge player because of forward shaft lean and trying to strike ball first and learning how to properly use a wedge was game changing for me. That is exactly what I was going through when I filmed that wedge shot that I posted because the shot felt like a flip, but in reality it wasn't.  I am amazed by the push back in these forums for using the club how it was designed to be used. Even if you didn't know the correct information previously, upon learning it there should be an immediate pivot to the correct technique, but there isn't, people are stubborn and stuck in their ways I suppose but I put out the information for those that are truly looking for the correct info and want to maximize their learning, understanding, and improvement and may have not been exposed to the correct information as I used to be that person.  

[bluedot]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Maybe twelve degrees of leading edge bounce with a normal amount of handle lean, but anyone that has handled a 55* C3i wedge knows that if you expose the full amount of bounce possible on it that the club has WAYYY more than 12 degrees of bounce and is much closer to 30 than it is 12 I assure you.  C3i instructs players to play their clubs with a square face but I treat it like a normal wedge and don't mind the leading edge rising well up off the ground when the face is open as it give me more confidence that the club will not dig.  Max bounce would be measured with the shaft at 90* 

 

Even though the shaft isn't at 90* in this still frame you can see the angle that is created by the trailing edge of the club if you open the face and it is way more than 12* and this is on the 65* wedge as it is way more pronounced on the 55* wedge but if you open the face and rest the club on the trailing edge even on the 65 degree wedge it is still around 20 to 25* of bounce. 

 

Sure with the wedge in a square faced position as seen below the bounce is closer to 12 degrees but as you open the face more and more of the trailing edge would be more exposed and as I said it is even more pronounced on the 55* wedge: 

 

 

When I get home in about a week I will take a picture of my wedge in the max bounce orientation and you can see for yourself on the 55*. What I am wondering is why of everything that I posted that the only thing you chose to go after was the bounce of a wedge when you thought I was a "troll" and making "head scratcher" comments previously?  

I suspected you were a troll because you were writing things that seemed more about controversy than discussion.  I apologize for mistaking your statements for trolling.
 

You have stated that the #1 player in the world doesn’t hit wedges correctly, and you have given a bounce number for a wedge that I’ve only seen on infomercials, never in a store or pro shop, that even the company doesn’t claim.  I’ll let those two things speak for themselves.

 

If you like raising the leading edge of the club off the ground and hitting behind the ball, have at it.  If you want the rest of the world, from the best player in the world on down, to believe that doing this is the “correct” way to hit a wedge, I think you will be disappointed.

[iknowbagu]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You may very well be a good wedge player, but you could be better if you used the club as it was designed to be used.  A wedge should not rip up a divot unless you are hitting a full shot in which case you can't open the face and expose the bounce to begin with.  You could putt with the toe of your putter and be a good putter, but you would be a better putter if you used the putter as it was designed to be used.   

 

Oh, I'm sorry, that was rhetorical. Me and the world #1 will be just fine doing what we're doing (him slightly more so than me, obviously).

 

 

[MFBach]

11 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I used to be a crap wedge player because of forward shaft lean and trying to strike ball first and learning how to properly use a wedge was game changing for me. That is exactly what I was going through when I filmed that wedge shot that I posted because the shot felt like a flip, but in reality it wasn't.  I am amazed by the push back in these forums for using the club how it was designed to be used. Even if you didn't know the correct information previously, upon learning it there should be an immediate pivot to the correct technique, but there isn't, people are stubborn and stuck in their ways I suppose but I put out the information for those that are truly looking for the correct info and want to maximize their learning, understanding, and improvement and may have not been exposed to the correct information as I used to be that person.  

I hadn’t responded to your original explanation yet because I wanted to be able to take the time to look through the videos and information you provided. My initial response was in jest, somewhat, but I was genuinely curious about the answer, so I do appreciate the time you took to provide it. 
 

I won’t disagree with Bob or Roger, as they’ve dedicated their lives to wedge design, but I also think they’ve lost some of their subjectivity due to that. In my opinion, bounce on a wedge, or any specific club characteristic for that matter, is there to help the golfer using it. Basically, the features they provide should be adapted to suit the player, not the other way around. 

[crivas]

Man, how times have changed on available grinds and bounce. Look at those Cleveland numbers from back in the day.

 

Low Bounce 56 was 12* down from 14* 🙃

 

[North Butte]

50 minutes ago, crivas said:

Man, how times have changed on available grinds and bounce. Look at those Cleveland numbers from back in the day.

 

Low Bounce 56 was 12* down from 14* 🙃

 

I remember those 0-degree bounce 60's with the hugely wide and very cambered soles. Back then my appoach to bunker shots was to play them with a square (or nearly square) face and just drag a LW through the sand to get the ball out and running. Those wide-sole 0-bounce ones were the f'shizzle. 

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, bluedot said:

I suspected you were a troll because you were writing things that seemed more about controversy than discussion.  I apologize for mistaking your statements for trolling.
 

You have stated that the #1 player in the world doesn’t hit wedges correctly, and you have given a bounce number for a wedge that I’ve only seen on infomercials, never in a store or pro shop, that even the company doesn’t claim.  I’ll let those two things speak for themselves.

 

If you like raising the leading edge of the club off the ground and hitting behind the ball, have at it.  If you want the rest of the world, from the best player in the world on down, to believe that doing this is the “correct” way to hit a wedge, I think you will be disappointed.

Apology accepted and no offense taken as I find the banter healthy for the forum so long as it isn't disrespectful.  Now then, just because Rory is the number one player in the world doesn't mean he is right.  Rory has to know that using the leading edge on all but full wedge shots is less efficient by now but he has accepted that his method is less efficient, likely because that is "the way he has always done it" and doesn't want to change his technique because it often involves a drop in performance before improvement takes hold.  Just like an athlete that hits down on driver yet is a good player, they likely know there is a more efficient way, but they still reluctant to change.  

 

I don't think you will ever see a wedge "advertised" with a bounce angle higher than about 18 because the consumer believes that a higher bounce number means that it is a "cheater" wedge and the average consumer believes they are one step away from being a pro so they need 3 degrees of bounce, yet don't even know how that bounce is supposed to be used. They also believe that the club will actually "bounce" off the turf when "glide" would be a much more accurate term. You can easily see that the C3i wedge has way more than 12 degrees of bounce and is much closer to 30 degrees of bounce than 12 when the face is opened.  If we are going to place so much emphasis on bounce, grind, etc. then the least we should do is be educated on how to properly use the club as it was designed.  The fact is most golfers should be using wedges in the mold of C3i, Cleveland Smart Sole, etc. and their games would better for it, but we all think we are tour pros and fall for the marketing hype when we should be past that by now as consumers. Vokey wedges are cast and cost way more than they should, but for some reason the consumers overlook that fact, yet demand their irons be forged to give them "soft feel"...but Vokey wedges in Japan are forged....wtf!

 

There are ways to disguise bounce in a club so that the leading edge doesn't rise up off the ground but I said that I personally don't mind it, my statement was that you need way more bounce than you think and a wedge should not rip up a divot on a partial wedge shot, it should bruise the turf.  Rory needs more bounce on his wedges, but it is his choice whether or not he values that change. I bet if he was hitting his driver inefficiently he would embrace change and he would hit every shaft and clubhead combo on the planet to find his perfect fit because that's where his interests lay. Funny how that happens. 

 

Matter of fact here is a teaching pro that is just now discovering the value of using the bounce (that means that all the time previously he was teaching incorrect technique but at least when he discovered the proper technique he quickly pivoted): 

 

Most of my golf journey is derived from switching from playing right handed to left handed from scratch having never had a lesson and trying to find a way to speed up my improvement. My engineering background has helped me grasp the math of golf and my exercise science background has helped me with the athletic side of the game and where it took me six years to break 90 right handed, it took me 6 months to do it lefty and it was all because I was equipped with the correct knowledge to maximize my efforts so I was my own lab rat pretty much. Every piece of poor information that golfer receives shallows their learning curve and slows the amount of time for them to reach their potential and I refused to waste time when I switched over from "Right to Lefty" so that is why I don't hesitate to mention that Rory can play wedge shots however he pleases, yet also point out the flaw in this technique and equipment because it is important to understand when being applied to our own individual games. R to L

[bluedot]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Apology accepted and no offense taken as I find the banter healthy for the forum so long as it isn't disrespectful.  Now then, just because Rory is the number one player in the world doesn't mean he is right.  Rory has to know that using the leading edge on all but full wedge shots is less efficient by now but he has accepted that his method is less efficient, likely because that is "the way he has always done it" and doesn't want to change his technique because it often involves a drop in performance before improvement takes hold.  Just like an athlete that hits down on driver yet is a good player, they likely know there is a more efficient way, but they still reluctant to change.  

 

I don't think you will ever see a wedge "advertised" with a bounce angle higher than about 18 because the consumer believes that a higher bounce number means that it is a "cheater" wedge and the average consumer believes they are one step away from being a pro so they need 3 degrees of bounce, yet don't even know how that bounce is supposed to be used. They also believe that the club will actually "bounce" off the turf when "glide" would be a much more accurate term. You can easily see that the C3i wedge has way more than 12 degrees of bounce and is much closer to 30 degrees of bounce than 12 when the face is opened.  If we are going to place so much emphasis on bounce, grind, etc. then the least we should do is be educated on how to properly use the club as it was designed.  The fact is most golfers should be using wedges in the mold of C3i, Cleveland Smart Sole, etc. and their games would better for it, but we all think we are tour pros and fall for the marketing hype when we should be past that by now as consumers. Vokey wedges are cast and cost way more than they should, but for some reason the consumers overlook that fact, yet demand their irons be forged to give them "soft feel"...but Vokey wedges in Japan are forged....wtf!

 

There are ways to disguise bounce in a club so that the leading edge doesn't rise up off the ground but I said that I personally don't mind it, my statement was that you need way more bounce than you think and a wedge should not rip up a divot on a partial wedge shot, it should bruise the turf.  Rory needs more bounce on his wedges, but it is his choice whether or not he values that change. I bet if he was hitting his driver inefficiently he would embrace change and he would hit every shaft and clubhead combo on the planet to find his perfect fit because that's where his interests lay. Funny how that happens. 

 

Matter of fact here is a teaching pro that is just now discovering the value of using the bounce (that means that all the time previously he was teaching incorrect technique but at least when he discovered the proper technique he quickly pivoted): 

 

Most of my golf journey is derived from switching from playing right handed to left handed from scratch having never had a lesson and trying to find a way to speed up my improvement. My engineering background has helped me grasp the math of golf and my exercise science background has helped me with the athletic side of the game and where it took me six years to break 90 right handed, it took me 6 months to do it lefty and it was all because I was equipped with the correct knowledge to maximize my efforts so I was my own lab rat pretty much. Every piece of poor information that golfer receives shallows their learning curve and slows the amount of time for them to reach their potential and I refused to waste time when I switched over from "Right to Lefty" so that is why I don't hesitate to mention that Rory can play wedge shots however he pleases, yet also point out the flaw in this technique and equipment because it is important to understand when being applied to our own individual games. R to L

I respect what you’ve accomplished, and you’ve obviously found a way to play that works great for you.

 

But you are NOT right about this subject FOR EVERYONE ELSE because of what you have accomplished.  Going from the instance to the generalization can be a logical fallacy of the highest magnitude, and that’s what you are doing with bounce and wedge shots.  In effect, you are saying, “I’m scratch and this is part of the reason why, therefore it is the best way to play the game.”

 

Which ignores, of course, the fact that there a thousands and thousands of players better than you who, some FAR better than you, that do it a different way.  And if you want YOUR method to be taken seriously, with your scratch index as validation, don’t you have to view the methods of even better players the same way?  
 

At my club, we have a member named Ryan Blaum, who has won over $3m in career earnings playing professionally, including on the PGA Tour.  After injuries, he’s trying, at age 39, to work his way back out there; his current index is 7.0, and Tour pros generally are in that range.  I have watched him hit wedges; it is magical to see when you are close to it.

 

So here I am, with a current index of 5.5.  If YOUR take on wedge play and bounce has validity because of your journey and your index, what am I to do with the fact that the gap between you and Ryan Blaum is considerably bigger than the gap between you and me?

 

And fwiw, I cannot for the life of me play wedges with 12* of bounce successfully other than out of a green side bunker, and I can’t chip with 12* bounce wedges at all.  My home course is extremely firm most of the year, and the fairways and fringes are VERY closely mown.  After a bunch of fittings, a bunch of practice, and a bunch of experimentation, I use a 54* with 10* of bounce, and a 58* with 8* of bounce.  Fwiw, I find the grind to be even more important, because it lets me play a lot of shots with those two clubs.  (I’m NOT scratch, but it isn’t because of my wedge play; I’m 70 and just don’t hit it very far off the tee anymore.)
 

 

[MFBach]

9 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

my statement was that you need way more bounce than you think and a wedge should not rip up a divot on a partial wedge shot, it should bruise the turf.

So, I’ve read this a couple times now, and here’s where I’m currently sitting… I get where you’re coming from as far as partial shots and I understand what you’re saying about the technique and bounce. I don’t even disagree that more bounce is an effective and almost necessary option for hitting those shots. I’ve hit plenty of “open face” wedge shots and don’t have a problem with them, when the need arises, but I’ve never really considered using that technique regularly, from the fairway. 
 

From my perspective, I prefer a lower flight on those approach shots unless the situation dictates something else. I feel like the longer the ball is in the air, the more room there is for conditions to affect the outcome, especially on a “soft shot” like this, say a 60 yard wedge. I haven’t tried to hit the shots you’re talking about often enough to know and expect the results, but I do know what’s going to happen with a square face and negative AOA. I know the flight, the distance, how many bounces I should expect to get, etc. 

 

I’m not even arguing at this point, but I do think it’s a matter of opinion, technique, or preference rather than fact. If you’re going to shots with an open face and shallow swing, then yes, the extra bounce is going to be beneficial. I’m not sure how well it would work off a tight, hard, fairway in the summer, especially with that much bounce, but I’m sure it could work if given enough effort. 
 

As far as professional and ams that don’t hit a wedge that way, I don’t necessarily think they/we are wrong either. If it’s a preference and it works, and there isn’t a significant performance benefit, why change? IMO, it would produce a higher than desired flight and less stopping power, for me. It would also require a complete change on the swing used for those shots, as you mentioned, which would produce less than desirable results for an extended period of time. 
 

9 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Just like an athlete that hits down on driver yet is a good player, they likely know there is a more efficient way, but they still reluctant to change

I’m also not sure I love the comparison here. I see what you’re saying and where you’re coming from, but there is a significant benefit in result and launch conditions created by a + AOA while hitting a driver. These partial shots around the green are very touchy feely, so it’s easy for me to see why techniques, preferences, performance characteristics can vary so wildly. I think it’s great, personally. One of my favorite parts of playing any kind of team format is watching how each player views a shot and tries to accomplish the same goal, even with completely different approaches. If we stick with the 60 yard approach comparison, I know players that would hit anything from lob wedge to 9 iron. It doesn’t make it right or wrong. That’s golf! 

Edited November 18, 2022 by MFBach

[Righty to Lefty]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:23 PM, bluedot said:

I respect what you’ve accomplished, and you’ve obviously found a way to play that works great for you.

 

But you are NOT right about this subject FOR EVERYONE ELSE because of what you have accomplished.  Going from the instance to the generalization can be a logical fallacy of the highest magnitude, and that’s what you are doing with bounce and wedge shots.  In effect, you are saying, “I’m scratch and this is part of the reason why, therefore it is the best way to play the game.”

 

Which ignores, of course, the fact that there a thousands and thousands of players better than you who, some FAR better than you, that do it a different way.  And if you want YOUR method to be taken seriously, with your scratch index as validation, don’t you have to view the methods of even better players the same way?  
 

At my club, we have a member named Ryan Blaum, who has won over $3m in career earnings playing professionally, including on the PGA Tour.  After injuries, he’s trying, at age 39, to work his way back out there; his current index is 7.0, and Tour pros generally are in that range.  I have watched him hit wedges; it is magical to see when you are close to it.

 

So here I am, with a current index of 5.5.  If YOUR take on wedge play and bounce has validity because of your journey and your index, what am I to do with the fact that the gap between you and Ryan Blaum is considerably bigger than the gap between you and me?

 

And fwiw, I cannot for the life of me play wedges with 12* of bounce successfully other than out of a green side bunker, and I can’t chip with 12* bounce wedges at all.  My home course is extremely firm most of the year, and the fairways and fringes are VERY closely mown.  After a bunch of fittings, a bunch of practice, and a bunch of experimentation, I use a 54* with 10* of bounce, and a 58* with 8* of bounce.  Fwiw, I find the grind to be even more important, because it lets me play a lot of shots with those two clubs.  (I’m NOT scratch, but it isn’t because of my wedge play; I’m 70 and just don’t hit it very far off the tee anymore.)
 

 

 

Once again I am not injecting my opinion into this subject in any way and I see that you completely disregarded the instruction of the very designers of the equipment that is the subject of this thread.  I am not talking about my personal golf journey, I am talking about the use of the club as it was designed. @MFBach If my analogy didn't hit home then what about this one, what if the large majority of players didn't tee up their driver and just dropped it on the ground and hit it.  Then there were interviews with the designers of the drivers stating that the best way to play that particular club is to put it on a tee, yet since a touring pro experienced success not teeing up the driver, because that's how he's always done it, there was massive pushback to a regular guy in a golf forum talking about the proper technique of hitting a driver off a tee and how it is the MOST efficient way to use the club's design, despite a pro having success with a less efficient method. I never said that Rory was wrong, I said that his technique is not the most efficient way and that is fact, regardless of this success. We ams should definitely be looking for the most efficient way to play every club in our bag.  I mean what if Rory only putted using the toe of his putter, should we copy that also?!

 

I will say this, there is nothing magical about a pro hitting a golf ball, and the moment you realize that you will be better for it. Pros often hit the ball all over the yard just like we do but they miss better than we do and you will see that the more you are able to play with or observe them play.  You will hardly ever see a pro hit every fairway and green in a round of golf ever, so what you are seeing when a pro plays is their ability to manage the golf course, which they are of course masters of that craft.  You are also more than capable of hitting any shot just as good a pro at your given speed but most ams don't know impact either mathematically or athletically, so they don't realize that the aren't fully levering the ball so they are in awe of a pro that instinctively understands where they are in relation to the ball and hits the ball with leverage more often than not. 

 

I assure you that if you were blind tested you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a wedge with 10 or 12 degrees of bounce, especially if your angle of attack is less than the amount of bounce, meaning the club won't dig with either.  I assure you that those 2 degrees of bounce do not breach your limit between playable and completely unplayable but your understanding of how to properly use the club is the issue because if 12 degrees of bounce is so unplayable then why didn't you just close the face until you were using 10 degrees of bounce, because you can open or close the face and adjust how much bounce is or isn't being used on a given shot, and that is why I said that more bounce is better, because you can adjust the amount used on a given shot as it isn't all or nothing scenario.  The fact is you wanted it to be the wedge when the root of the issue is your understanding of how to use the club which is the crux of my argument because pros can get away with things that we simply cannot.  Is Rory wrong for how he choses to play wedge shots, no, is he inefficient, absolutely. Pros should be relied on for course strategy and management, engineers and designers for proper use of the equipment, and the athlete for developing a repeatable swing motion and understanding and interpreting impact and ball flight and that will maximize the everyday golfer's learning curve. This approach is solely responsible for my rapid improvement when I switched from righty to lefty. Am I making sense? R to L 

[bluedot]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

Once again I am not injecting my opinion into this subject in any way and I see that you completely disregarded the instruction of the very designers of the equipment that is the subject of this thread.  I am not talking about my personal golf journey, I am talking about the use of the club as it was designed. @MFBach If my analogy didn't hit home then what about this one, what if the large majority of players didn't tee up their driver and just dropped it on the ground and hit it.  Then there were interviews with the designers of the drivers stating that the best way to play that particular club is to put it on a tee, yet since a touring pro experienced success not teeing up the driver, because that's how he's always done it, there was massive pushback to a regular guy in a golf forum talking about the proper technique of hitting a driver off a tee and how it is the MOST efficient way to use the club's design, despite a pro having success with a less efficient method. I never said that Rory was wrong, I said that his technique is not the most efficient way and that is fact, regardless of this success. We ams should definitely be looking for the most efficient way to play every club in our bag.  I mean what if Rory only putted using the toe of his putter, should we copy that also?!

 

I will say this, there is nothing magical about a pro hitting a golf ball, and the moment you realize that you will be better for it. Pros often hit the ball all over the yard just like we do but they miss better than we do and you will see that the more you are able to play with or observe them play.  You will hardly ever see a pro hit every fairway and green in a round of golf ever, so what you are seeing when a pro plays is their ability to manage the golf course, which they are of course masters of that craft.  You are also more than capable of hitting any shot just as good a pro at your given speed but most ams don't know impact either mathematically or athletically, so they don't realize that the aren't fully levering the ball so they are in awe of a pro that instinctively understands where they are in relation to the ball and hits the ball with leverage more often than not. 

 

I assure you that if you were blind tested you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a wedge with 10 or 12 degrees of bounce, especially if your angle of attack is less than the amount of bounce, meaning the club won't dig with either.  I assure you that those 2 degrees of bounce do not breach your limit between playable and completely unplayable but your understanding of how to properly use the club is the issue because if 12 degrees of bounce is so unplayable then why didn't you just close the face until you were using 10 degrees of bounce, because you can open or close the face and adjust how much bounce is or isn't being used on a given shot, and that is why I said that more bounce is better, because you can adjust the amount used on a given shot as it isn't all or nothing scenario.  The fact is you wanted it to be the wedge when the root of the issue is your understanding of how to use the club which is the crux of my argument because pros can get away with things that we simply cannot.  Is Rory wrong for how he choses to play wedge shots, no, is he inefficient, absolutely. Pros should be relied on for course strategy and management, engineers and designers for proper use of the equipment, and the athlete for developing a repeatable swing motion and understanding and interpreting impact and ball flight and that will maximize the everyday golfer's learning curve. This approach is solely responsible for my rapid improvement when I switched from righty to lefty. Am I making sense? R to L 

It’s great that you’ve found something that works for you; congrats on that, and your improvement after switching to playing lefty.  I would never tell a better player that they were doing something wrong, and you’re a better player than I.  
 

But there are better players than you, MUCH better players than you, who do it VERY differently, and you might want to extend the same respect to what they do and what they’ve accomplished as you expect for yourself.

 

Wide sole, high bounce wedges like the C3i have been around for a long time (the Alien wedge jumps to mind).  Cleveland and Callaway that I know of both make a version of this type of wedge.  It’s great that this works for you, and there are almost certainly a lot of ams out there who could be helped, at least in their bunker play, by more bounce.

 

But NOT all players at every level of the game.

[Righty to Lefty]

3 minutes ago, bluedot said:

It’s great that you’ve found something that works for you; congrats on that, and your improvement after switching to playing lefty.  I would never tell a better player that they were doing something wrong, and you’re a better player than I.  
 

But there are better players than you, MUCH better players than you, who do it VERY differently, and you might want to extend the same respect to what they do and what they’ve accomplished as you expect for yourself.

 

Wide sole, high bounce wedges like the C3i have been around for a long time (the Alien wedge jumps to mind).  Cleveland and Callaway that I know of both make a version of this type of wedge.  It’s great that this works for you, and there are almost certainly a lot of ams out there who could be helped, at least in their bunker play, by more bounce.

 

But NOT all players at every level of the game.

I NEVER SAID THAT HE IS WRONG...I SAID IT WAS INEFFICIENT!!!  Please understand the nuance in that statement as it is an important distinction that I am making.  The objective and design of a wedge is such that when you expose the bounce that the club will glide over the turf instead of digging into it.  If you you don't have sufficient bounce in relation to your angle of attack your wedge is doing you a disservice and that is the simple fact.  You can take bounce off a wedge by opening the face less and less, but if you don't have sufficient bounce then your club will dig on a properly executed wedge shot that engages the turf prior to striking the ball. This creates a high strike on the face which creates weak, low spin shots.  Bounce is your friend on soft and firm turf people!!

 

 

[bluedot]

39 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I NEVER SAID THAT HE IS WRONG...I SAID IT WAS INEFFICIENT!!!  Please understand the nuance in that statement as it is an important distinction that I am making.  The objective and design of a wedge is such that when you expose the bounce that the club will glide over the turf instead of digging into it.  If you you don't have sufficient bounce in relation to your angle of attack your wedge is doing you a disservice and that is the simple fact.  You can take bounce off a wedge by opening the face less and less, but if you don't have sufficient bounce then your club will dig on a properly executed wedge shot that engages the turf prior to striking the ball. This creates a high strike on the face which creates weak, low spin shots.  Bounce is your friend on soft and firm turf people!!

 

 

I’m done.  Good luck to you on your continued quest for excellence. 

[J13]

To the original question I will say most bounce numbers on wedges are not real.  Wedges in fact have many different bounces and most on the market are 20+* but they won't put that on a club because no one would buy it.  

Great article by Dr. Paul Wood

https://ping.com/en-us/blogs/proving-grounds/effective-bounce

[SteelieD]

TLDR so it may have already been said… I like a combo in my higher lofted wedges. Higher bounce 56 and lower (to very low) in my 60. I consider my gap wedge as an extension of my irons and typically use it for full shots. Depending on course and conditions, I’m covered. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by SteelieD
.

[Righty to Lefty]

15 hours ago, bluedot said:

I’m done.  Good luck to you on your continued quest for excellence. 

With all due respect the facts don't care whether you are done or not and that is my point. I continue to provide information that will hopefully give you a better perspective on the fact of the matter and your response is to say you're done instead of continuing to dig into things to possibly expose a point of view you weren't aware of previously.  In the video that I posted it was demonstrating that keeping the leading edge above the turf is very important to the stability and performance of the wedge by forcing the strike lower on the wedge where it is most stable but you want to disregard it because it doesn't match what you want to be true.  I assure you that if you post information on here I am going to dig into it and look at it objectively and test and report back but the I'm done approach does no one any good  in reality.  

 

15 hours ago, J13 said:

To the original question I will say most bounce numbers on wedges are not real.  Wedges in fact have many different bounces and most on the market are 20+* but they won't put that on a club because no one would buy it.  

Great article by Dr. Paul Wood

https://ping.com/en-us/blogs/proving-grounds/effective-bounce

I was going to mention this exact fact but it doesn't seem to matter as most would just disregard it anyway without investigating deeper.  My reasoning for wanting to understand how to use the bounce was not only to be a better player, but a better consumer also. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 11/15/2022 at 10:11 AM, bluedot said:

There isn’t much that is more disheartening to a decent player than hitting a great drive, only to have your wedge bounce cause the club to skip into the ball on a good swing and see the shot leave with a trajectory more like a 6 iron than a SW.

I figured quoting this, then laughing at it, would come off better than just clicking the laughing emoji.  'Cause Man, we've all been there. 

 

I'd like to hit long irons as well as some of those skulled 14-degree bounce 588 sand wedges have flown...  Amazing club in fluffy sand, but I'm just never playing on a course that well-maintained usually.  And the bounce is probably well down the list of reasons why I screwed up that shot, but still.

 

 

[Andygolderson]

All these lessons and opinions are nice.

 

I can't believe nobody yet mentioned the fact that an 8 handi has no clue about wedges ??

[J13]

On 11/21/2022 at 2:28 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

With all due respect the facts don't care whether you are done or not and that is my point. I continue to provide information that will hopefully give you a better perspective on the fact of the matter and your response is to say you're done instead of continuing to dig into things to possibly expose a point of view you weren't aware of previously.  In the video that I posted it was demonstrating that keeping the leading edge above the turf is very important to the stability and performance of the wedge by forcing the strike lower on the wedge where it is most stable but you want to disregard it because it doesn't match what you want to be true.  I assure you that if you post information on here I am going to dig into it and look at it objectively and test and report back but the I'm done approach does no one any good  in reality.  

 

I was going to mention this exact fact but it doesn't seem to matter as most would just disregard it anyway without investigating deeper.  My reasoning for wanting to understand how to use the bounce was not only to be a better player, but a better consumer also. 

 

Bounce is not nearly as important as grind for most players.  Understanding how you deliver a wedge on less than full shots is key.  For example when I fit a player for wedges we start with full shot wedges (typically 48*-54*) then do a separate fitting for wedges (lofts typically 56-60) where I have the player hit 3/4 and 1/2 shots as well as open faced shots around a green.  More often than not the grind is different, bounce not as much.  If you talk to the OG's in the wedge game like Roger Cleveland they will be the first to tell you most players need more bounce due to the majority of players having steeper attack angles.  You should also consider the climate where you live for example a player in Michigan will have different needs than one in Arizona due to rainfall and turf.  We see this reflected in sales by grind (Edel). 

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, J13 said:

 

Bounce is not nearly as important as grind for most players.  Understanding how you deliver a wedge on less than full shots is key.  For example when I fit a player for wedges we start with full shot wedges (typically 48*-54*) then do a separate fitting for wedges (lofts typically 56-60) where I have the player hit 3/4 and 1/2 shots as well as open faced shots around a green.  More often than not the grind is different, bounce not as much.  If you talk to the OG's in the wedge game like Roger Cleveland they will be the first to tell you most players need more bounce due to the majority of players having steeper attack angles.  You should also consider the climate where you live for example a player in Michigan will have different needs than one in Arizona due to rainfall and turf.  We see this reflected in sales by grind (Edel). 

Excellent post, and EXACTLY my experience.  

[Righty to Lefty]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:28 PM, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I figured quoting this, then laughing at it, would come off better than just clicking the laughing emoji.  'Cause Man, we've all been there. 

 

I'd like to hit long irons as well as some of those skulled 14-degree bounce 588 sand wedges have flown...  Amazing club in fluffy sand, but I'm just never playing on a course that well-maintained usually.  And the bounce is probably well down the list of reasons why I screwed up that shot, but still.

 

 

The bounce on the wedge didn't skull the shot though, the lack of understanding of how to actually play the shot is what skulled the shot.  So long as the leading edge of the club is below the equator of the ball you will not skull the shot and that is precisely why the proper way to play a partial wedge shot is to engage the turf prior to striking the ball. The low point of the swing arc still needs to be in front of the ball, just not as must as it does for a typical iron shot, and the skulled shot is a result of the low point of the swing arc being behind the ball or trying strike ball first while also intending to use the bounce. Even off a tight lie you can still use the bounce of the club because if the shot is struck with a negative angle of attack, and you engage the turf prior to the ball, the club will engage the the turf and flatten out and the result will be a lower trajectory shot that will have a ton of spin. 

 

17 hours ago, J13 said:

 

Bounce is not nearly as important as grind for most players.  Understanding how you deliver a wedge on less than full shots is key.  For example when I fit a player for wedges we start with full shot wedges (typically 48*-54*) then do a separate fitting for wedges (lofts typically 56-60) where I have the player hit 3/4 and 1/2 shots as well as open faced shots around a green.  More often than not the grind is different, bounce not as much.  If you talk to the OG's in the wedge game like Roger Cleveland they will be the first to tell you most players need more bounce due to the majority of players having steeper attack angles.  You should also consider the climate where you live for example a player in Michigan will have different needs than one in Arizona due to rainfall and turf.  We see this reflected in sales by grind (Edel). 

I agree with you that the grind and bounce work together in conjunction, but how bout I leave it at this statement to be more general and state that your wedge should not take a divot on a partial wedge shot and should bruise the turf and that the leading edge must be kept above the surface of the turf regardless of the spec of the wedge? You are absolutely correct that it is important to understand how a wedge is delivered on a less than full shot yet when I mention the proper method I am viewed as crazy by the majority despite the very designers of the clubs speaking of the same technique on how to use them. If a club digs on a partial wedge shot it is not the correct wedge because the very nature of it digging means that the speed of the club through impact was reduced making it much more difficult to control distance. If the leading edge remains above the turf it will at least skid and more speed will be preserved and be more inline with the distance the golfer intended because much less speed will be lost meaning the shot will travel more closely to the intended distance.  

[OspreyCI]

All this talk about more bounce and the correct grind makes sense. I believe my Vokey 58 12*D wedge is a perfect blend of enough bounce and versatile grind. Probably the best wedge I have used. 

[J13]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:46 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

The bounce on the wedge didn't skull the shot though, the lack of understanding of how to actually play the shot is what skulled the shot.  So long as the leading edge of the club is below the equator of the ball you will not skull the shot and that is precisely why the proper way to play a partial wedge shot is to engage the turf prior to striking the ball. The low point of the swing arc still needs to be in front of the ball, just not as must as it does for a typical iron shot, and the skulled shot is a result of the low point of the swing arc being behind the ball or trying strike ball first while also intending to use the bounce. Even off a tight lie you can still use the bounce of the club because if the shot is struck with a negative angle of attack, and you engage the turf prior to the ball, the club will engage the the turf and flatten out and the result will be a lower trajectory shot that will have a ton of spin. 

 

I agree with you that the grind and bounce work together in conjunction, but how bout I leave it at this statement to be more general and state that your wedge should not take a divot on a partial wedge shot and should bruise the turf and that the leading edge must be kept above the surface of the turf regardless of the spec of the wedge? You are absolutely correct that it is important to understand how a wedge is delivered on a less than full shot yet when I mention the proper method I am viewed as crazy by the majority despite the very designers of the clubs speaking of the same technique on how to use them. If a club digs on a partial wedge shot it is not the correct wedge because the very nature of it digging means that the speed of the club through impact was reduced making it much more difficult to control distance. If the leading edge remains above the turf it will at least skid and more speed will be preserved and be more inline with the distance the golfer intended because much less speed will be lost meaning the shot will travel more closely to the intended distance.  

 

Agree for the most part.  You don't want to take big divots with partial shots but sometimes turf/course conditions make that impossible. For any diggers out there that want IMO the best anti dig wedge on the planet it's the Edel SMS D grind.  Nothing touches it if you don't might paying a few bucks more for a Forged wedge.  For guys that love opening the face on tight lies i've found the Tiger grind to be really great.