distance debate

[milesgiles]

9 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

answer my question, then ill handle yours

 

my answer is on this page. more than once.

 

edit, last page

Edited April 20, 2022 by milesgiles

[milesgiles]

14 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

LOL!

 

Maybe you should ask Max Homa, Sam Burns, Sungjae Im, Lucas Hebert, Jason Kokrak, Talor Gooch, Cam Smith, Hudson Swafford, Tom Hoge and Scottie Scheffler how "one dimensional" their games are.

 

And to note, currently the Top 100 drivers on the PGA Tour are within 23 yards or less average distance from top to bottom.  What do you think is happening in between those drives that makes the game one dimensional?

 

 

lucas herbert can tell you himself

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uMCUplptnCQ

[ChipStrokes]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

my answer is on this page. more than once.

 

edit, last page

champ averages 321 on tour this year.  here he is carrying a ball 355 pretty damn easily

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/3-of-the-longest-hitters-on-the-pga-tour/

 

an even better example: tony finau averages 300 on the nose on tour.  

 

if you REALLY don't think these guys throttle it back, i'm not sure i can continue this conversation with you.

[milesgiles]

3 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

champ averages 321 on tour this year.  here he is carrying a ball 355 pretty damn easily

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/3-of-the-longest-hitters-on-the-pga-tour/

 

an even better example: tony finau averages 300 on the nose on tour.  

 

if you REALLY don't think these guys throttle it back, i'm not sure i can continue this conversation with you.

 

never seen Champ play, but I did watch Finau at Wentowrth last year or the year before. Hit regular duck hooks with his driver (actually more than Ive ever seen from any tour pro), so yes he throttles back for control.

 

dont know what point you are trying to make

 

Anyone else?

Edited April 20, 2022 by milesgiles

[ChipStrokes]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

never seen Champ play, but I did watch Finau at Wentowrth last year or the year before. Hit regular duck hooks with his driver (actually more than Ive ever seen from any tour pro), so yes he throttles back for control.

 

Anyone else?

LOL who's being dismissive now?

 

you don't like modern golf and you'll yell at the clouds until we're all playing persimmon clubs.

 

i'm done here.

 

@clevited and @oikos1 good luck.

Edited April 20, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[Titleist99]

36 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

please explain Cam Champ being 30 yards shorter on the pga tour than he was on the korn ferry tour 

And he'd be the first to tell you that he's toning it down to find more fairway and that he's concentrating on his wedge game........

[ChipStrokes]

Just now, Titleist99 said:

And he'd be the first to tell you that he's toning it down to find more fairway and that he's concentrating on his wedge game........

it's almost as if...the course is dictating how far he can effectively hit it.

 

CANT BE!

[clevited]

18 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

all covered by sg. read it.

 

I have. I am done talking with you about this, you are not listening and just trying to win by moving goal posts.  News flash, you aren't and have never been winning in any arguement I have seen you discuss.

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

all covered by sg. read it.

You are incorrectly interpreting the strokes gained metrics and the strategy derived from them.  The correct interpretation is to get as close to the hole as you can without introducing undue risk (essentially penalty areas or effective penalty areas).  Also, once you are inside about 100 yards or so the strokes gained curve flattens, making very little gain for the additional reduced proximity until you are greenside.

[milesgiles]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You are incorrectly interpreting the strokes gained metrics and the strategy derived from them.  The correct interpretation is to get as close to the hole as you can without introducing undue risk (essentially penalty areas or effective penalty areas).  Also, once you are inside about 100 yards or so the strokes gained curve flattens, making very little gain for the additional reduced proximity until you are greenside.

 

Yes I know? Wasn’t it clevited going on about two ponds on a drive on the last page? That’s why I said it’s covered by sg 

[milesgiles]

14 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

it's almost as if...the course is dictating how far he can effectively hit it.

 

CANT BE!

 

Thought you were done here? That lasted..5 minutes 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

20 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

They purchase airtime and sponsor plenty of programming on the golf channel that's for sure.

I don't have cable, so no golf channel, but I'm sure you're right that equipment manufacturers sponsor plenty on the GC. 

I just thought we were talking about the Tour itself and golf broadcasts, which I don't see them in the list of top 10 tour sponsors. Again I'll qualify that as I could be wrong.

[gvogel]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

disengenous?

 

its not me that has:

 

ignored sg data

ignored that half of the games greatest players, prior to the 90s, were not known for being exceptional off the tee

ignored that almost all of the lengthening of courses came about during the distance explosion

selectively used driving distance data 

not even bothered to read the distance insights report

 

etc

 

etc

 

I think that most of the greatest players were exceptionally long off the tee, compared to their competition.  Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson and Greg Norman were long.  Now, you also had Gary Player (somewhat long) and Lee Trevino (not too long) who could win.

 

I would like to see who could be very long today with a small headed driver.  I don't think that Rory would have to much trouble, compared to his competition.  Bryson?  That might be up for debate.

 

But we can go on and on about who might benefit from rolled back equipment, and who might not.  I don't think it matters.  What matters is that golf courses should not have to be lengthened, or even played at a shorter distance (Augusta national, for example).  The game has gotten too long for the ball parks.  Guys will continue to swing faster because of diet and strength training.  There was no reason to go to 460 cc clubheads with hot faces.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Yes I know? Wasn’t it clevited going on about two ponds on a drive on the last page? That’s why I said it’s covered by sg 

Your statement was too terse to convey what you meant.  The bottom line is that course design and setup matters in the distance debate.

[gvogel]

9 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

So I've been gone for almost three years. Enlighten everyone with the consensus on where the "tradition" line is drawn and when the concensus was reached.

 

Don't strain yourself though because even though I haven't been around I know that you can't do either. 

 

Now back to those steel shafts...what's wrong with hickory and why the hypocrisy? Maybe you should do a WITB just to show everyone what a traditionalist you are. Don't forget to list the ball you play and it had better be hand stitched and full of feathers.

Hickory was played with wound rubber balls, balata covers.

[clevited]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You are incorrectly interpreting the strokes gained metrics and the strategy derived from them.  The correct interpretation is to get as close to the hole as you can without introducing undue risk (essentially penalty areas or effective penalty areas).  Also, once you are inside about 100 yards or so the strokes gained curve flattens, making very little gain for the additional reduced proximity until you are greenside.

 

Its just not worth it.  its enjoyable to have debates and conversations with people willing to try to understand but then agree to disagree once they do.  In Miles case, I don't think he is genuinely wanting to have a conversation.  I feel like he just wants to win an arguement, or feel like he is winning an arguement whatever way he can.  I know what I am saying, I live it every time I play, I know I have seen interviews where players talk about their throttling themselves in one way or another.  Any evidence summited is just dismissed by people like him in any way they think they can.  

 

Miles, if you are reading this, please get your head out of your rear and try to have a conversation.  Try to understand and not feel the need to be right all the time.  It isn't a good look.  Its easy to get worked up over something you get passionate about.  Believe me I know, but please set that aside and try to play nice.  Above all, please be GENUINE in your intent and replies, don't try to win everything or poke a hole all the time.

 

Sorry felt I had to.

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I don't have cable, so no golf channel, but I'm sure you're right that equipment manufacturers sponsor plenty on the GC. 

I just thought we were talking about the Tour itself and golf broadcasts, which I don't see them in the list of top 10 tour sponsors. Again I'll qualify that as I could be wrong.

The biggest sponsors of golf tournaments are not the manufactures but they are the biggest sponsors of  televised programing.

 

A couple of the biggest sponsor would probably be Rolex and Exxon Mobil with the Masters and many more....

Edited April 20, 2022 by Titleist99

[milesgiles]

11 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Your statement was too terse to convey what you meant.  The bottom line is that course design and setup matters in the distance debate.

 

If I was terse, that’s because I have had to say the exact same thing endlessly to the same two people itt. Not you.

 

design should be equitable for all types of players. Forced layups aren’t. Increasing rough and hazards over 300 yards isn’t, neither is narrowing fairways at an arbitrary yardage. Long, straight hitting should be rewarded.

 

Now, it’s far, far too easy. And it’s only going to get easier

[clevited]

40 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

If I was terse, that’s because I have had to say the exact same thing endlessly to the same two people itt. Not you.

 

design should be equitable for all types of players. Forced layups aren’t. Increasing rough and hazards over 300 yards isn’t, neither is narrowing fairways at an arbitrary yardage. Long, straight hitting should be rewarded.

 

Now, it’s far, far too easy. And it’s only going to get easier

 

Miles, long accurate hitting is and always has been rewarded, you just can't maximize that length in every situation.  That is what I am saying.  That has always been the case in golf.  The courses, whether you like it or not, dictate whether you can or cannot hit a full nuke when all things are considered.  That is all I have been saying this entire time.  Because of that, the course mix on tour tends to put a distance limit naturally.  This just means that as long as that mix stays the same, you just aren't going to see the yearly max climb much, and the distance average on tour should (and has been) converging to a limit.  That limit seems to be a function of what is most useful to score well given risk and reward.  That encompasses all sorts of factors like individual variance, wind, elevation, hazards, rough length, rough type, etc etc.  

 

I also simply don't agree that clubs are going to magically become sticks that hit themselves as you seem to be saying.  That is not an honest assessment of today's drivers.  You downplay the skill of these guys way too much.  Is it possible a guy will come along that has insane ability to hit straight at very high speeds?  Absolutely.  I think there are already guys on tour like that.  The problem is, that doesn't matter often.  Straight isn't laser straight.  There is wind, bounce, elevation, and just plain simple realistic human variance.  It is all common sense stuff.  If the tour started playing all wide open treeless, hazardless courses, I guarantee you a large percentage of tour player's driving averages would sky rocket and this is knowing that they only measure two holes a round.

 

Edit:  That was my last effort, if after that you still don't get it, fine, lets move on.

Edited April 20, 2022 by clevited

[Titleist99]

"design should be equitable for all types of players. Forced layups aren’t. Increasing rough and hazards over 300 yards isn’t, neither is narrowing fairways at an arbitrary yardage. Long, straight hitting should be rewarded.

 

Now, it’s far, far too easy. And it’s only going to get easier."

 

Most ridiculous thing that I've heard all day......LOL!

 

 

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Miles, long accurate hitting is and always has been rewarded, you just can't maximize that length in every situation.  That is what I am saying.  That has always been the case in golf.  The courses, whether you like it or not, dictate whether you can or cannot hit a full nuke when all things are considered.  That is all I have been saying this entire time.  Because of that, the course mix on tour tends to put a distance limit naturally.  This just means that as long as that mix stays the same, you just aren't going to see the yearly max climb much, and the distance average on tour should (and has been) converging to a limit.  That limit seems to be a function of what is most useful to score well given risk and reward.  That encompasses all sorts of factors like individual variance, wind, elevation, hazards, rough length, rough type, etc etc.  

 

I also simply don't agree that clubs are going to magically become sticks that hit themselves as you seem to be saying.  That is not an honest assessment of today's drivers.  You downplay the skill of these guys way too much.  Is it possible a guy will come along that has insane ability to hit straight at very high speeds?  Absolutely.  I think there are already guys on tour like that.  The problem is, that doesn't matter often.  Straight isn't laser straight.  There is wind, bounce, elevation, and just plain simple realistic human variance.  It is all common sense stuff.  If the tour started playing all wide open treeless, hazardless courses, I guarantee you a large percentage of tour player's driving averages would sky rocket and this is knowing that they only measure two holes a round.

 

Edit:  That was my last effort, if after that you still don't get it, fine, lets move on.

 

All of which was said twenty and thirty years ago. And proven disastrously wrong 

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

All of which was said twenty and thirty years ago. And proven disastrously wrong 

 

You clearly still don't get it. I give up.

[buckeyefl]

2 hours ago, gvogel said:

Hickory was played with wound rubber balls, balata covers.

So that's what you are playing?

[buckeyefl]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

All of which was said twenty and thirty years ago. And proven disastrously wrong 

Really? Proven by who and when?

 

I'm impressed that you are apparently a 1.5 playing hickory shafted clubs. Maybe you should start posting videos.

[Titleist99]

USGA just announce some future US OPEN sites.......Pebble Beach will host  2027 and 2044. 

Pebble Beach is 7000 yards......Now do that sound like the USGA is worried about the distance debate or needing 8000 yard golf courses. I think not....PB is one of the smallest professional courses. Yet they still manage to have major events there......go figure.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, buckeyefl said:

So that's what you are playing?

I used to from time to time, around the country in fun tournaments.  Then it became impossible for me to play two or three days in a row with the heavy clubs because of my back.  But I enjoyed the hickory game for about 5 years.

[gvogel]

47 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

USGA just announce some future US OPEN sites.......Pebble Beach will host  2027 and 2044. 

Pebble Beach is 7000 yards......Now do that sound like the USGA is worried about the distance debate or needing 8000 yard golf courses. I think not....PB is one of the smallest professional courses. Yet they still manage to have major events there......go figure.

Betcha by 2027 the USGA has stipulations for tournament balls and clubs.  Five years is plenty of time.

[Titleist99]

18 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Betcha by 2027 the USGA has stipulations for tournament balls and clubs.  Five years is plenty of time.

Never happen.....No need, somehow they manage the way things are.....

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

"design should be equitable for all types of players. Forced layups aren’t. Increasing rough and hazards over 300 yards isn’t, neither is narrowing fairways at an arbitrary yardage. Long, straight hitting should be rewarded.

 

Now, it’s far, far too easy. And it’s only going to get easier."

 

Most ridiculous thing that I've heard all day......LOL!

 

 

 

You think we should penalise long straight hitting? It’s a view..

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

Really? Proven by who and when?

 

I'm impressed that you are apparently a 1.5 playing hickory shafted clubs. Maybe you should start posting videos.

 

You don’t have to listen to me, plenty of major winners from before the toaster era say the same thing.. that it is far too easy to hit and removes too much skill from the game

 

find me the post where I advocated hickory. Or just quit making up rubbish 

Edited April 20, 2022 by milesgiles