New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[MonteScheinblum]

Almost made the tour as a +7

was the longest hitter in the world 

hit 200 mph of ball speed at age 50

made the finals of Q school at age 50

 

Seems like an athlete to me.

 

PS-every time I’m struggling is when my right elbow stays bent for too long and I right tilt ealry.

 

PPS-I kept my back to the target as long as a I could. If you get to the left side you can’t release too early. Jack Nicklaus 

 

Thats feel for staying in left tilt longer and unloading right elbow and wrists.

[johnrobison]

7 minutes ago, green5 said:

 

It's a subtle difference but in the video the instructor states the motion feels as if the butt end of the club is dropping towards the ball and that ruined many golf swings including my own. Many amateurs combined that traditional teaching with Harvey Penick's magic move and increased the trailing arm bend while bringing the club down and ended up in a OTT position.

 

The takeaways from the AMG video for me are how the pros' clubs fell much more vertically first rather than moving towards the ball, and how little right arm bend the pros have compared to the ams and how quickly that bend goes away.

In fact, for many players the feel/intent will have to be lowering the hands behind and down - straightening the trail arm in a direction behind the trail heel. What an instructor feels he is doing doesn't always translate to the student and getting them to make the correct motion. Decades ago an instructor told me that my first feel/intent should be to run to first base. For him, that's what he felt when he pressured the ball of his lead foot. For me, that's how I learned how to early extend! So, in that video, the instructor feels like the butt is going toward the ball, which is fine for him. Not so fine for others.

 

Monte, BTW, is quite good at offering the student multiple feels/intents until they produce the correct motion. He doesn't just tell them to feel what he feels, he finds what they need to feel even if it sounds absurd.

[glk]

28 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No I don’t believe you keep you hands up because it’s impossible not to extend them coming down and especially coming into impact. On the flip side staying level and lowering your arms while just pushing your front hip open isn’t going to work either. 
 

Here is another opinion…Steve Furlonger has force plates and 3d just like AMG. This is how he believes you increase hand speed…imagine that it’s a combination of extending the arms and lowering of the chest. 

It’s definitely not the blender drill. Amg has shown and well as others including Rory one of the drills. I think that drill is way better drill than the blender drill. 
 

 

Amg does have what they call the rory drill which is the same as this drill when using a driver    To me it is better than the blender drill.  
 

And unweightening is key - and max unweightening by top of backswing is the best time - leads to double torque peak, one to start the downswing via max moment arm, and second by p5 -- before max vertical grf!   Arms speed up as a byproduct of this torque and resulting body motion (if you dont do something to mess it up which we ams do quite commonly).    Dr kwon wants max angular acceleration as early as possible in the downswing then let it go.

[PracticeSwinger]

That had to be the best troll stance in a while here... that or a complete idiot... don't know which side of the fence I'm leaning here...

[FormerBigDaddy]

Lastly, I’m an 8.2 hc bc I didn’t get into golf until later in life and after my football career ended. Only been playing seriously for a couple years and with working full time and being husband and dad I don’t get to invest a lot of time in it. I played like once a year up until about 2 years ago. 
 

Also, I am a physical education teacher, coach, and have a masters in kinesiology/biomechanics. 
 

I didn’t mean to ruffle feathers. As I’ve said before we all see and feel different things. I really truly believe we are all saying the same things just feeling and see it differently. Some people need to feel their arms swing early, some do it naturally and don’t feel it so they think/feel rotation more with later throw. That’s probably the issue at hand.
 

im going to chill and back off this thread. Apologies if I offended anyone

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[PracticeSwinger]

7 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Lastly, I’m an 8.2 hc bc I didn’t get into golf until later in life and after my football career ended. Only been playing seriously for a couple years and as a husband and dad I don’t get to invest a lot of time in it. I played like once a year up until about 2 years ago. 
 

Also, I am a physical education teacher, coach, and have a masters in kinesiology/biomechanics. 
 

I didn’t mean to ruffle feathers. As I’ve said before we all see and feel different things. I really truly believe we are all saying the same things just feeling and see it differently. 
 

im going to chill and back off this thread. 

C’mon man… I’ll try and be civilized here, just look at your stance we see from our end of the table… especially with a background in biomechanics… so I come in and will offer good dollars for you to fix my tennis serve and wanting to see what our plan of action is: do you have 3D capture of what generally happens with the best players in the world? “Nah bro, just be an athlete big G and swirl it my man!”

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

C’mon man… I’ll try and be civilized here, just look at your stance we see from our end of the table… especially with a background in biomechanics… so I come in and will offer good dollars for you to fix my tennis serve and wanting to see what our plan of action is: do you have 3D capture of what generally happens with the best players in the world? “Nah bro, just be an athlete big G and swirl it my man!”

Should I actually watch a video and try my best to interpret the data being presented?

 

Nah bro, just flex on em! 

[airjammer]

38 minutes ago, glk said:

Amg does have what they call the rory drill which is the same as this drill when using a driver    To me it is better than the blender drill.  
 

And unweightening is key - and max unweightening by top of backswing is the best time - leads to double torque peak, one to start the downswing via max moment arm, and second by p5 -- before max vertical grf!   Arms speed up as a byproduct of this torque and resulting body motion (if you dont do something to mess it up which we ams do quite commonly).    Dr kwon wants max angular acceleration as early as possible in the downswing then let it go./cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/F03CDF63-E847-4B85-88D6-5264A99C1C7A.jpeg.425d2f20aad2f04b23dcc9d96f44a141.jpeg

100% and ANYONE who tells you manually speed up the arms destroys your kinematic sequence because to speed up the arms your chest must decelerate. 
 

That is something GG and Milo etc don’t want to have happen so that why they say leave your hands up. 
 

This was my swing the last time I saw Dan. For the top of my backswing he wanted to leave my hands up because I was pulling down too much. 
 

http://www.jumpusa.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=XFACTOR&Product_Code=XFACTOR&Category_Code=

 

I bought that machine back around 2008-9 after I spent some time with John Dochety “Lake” for the old timers. He bought one for the club he was teaching at. I liked it and bought one for myself. I sold it about 2015. I’d bet nobody has spent more time trying to get there arms in front of their hip by trying to accelerate their arms. The blender drill is trash as far as I am concerned. 

[glk]

I had questions on how amg was measuring ext/int shoulder rotation back in august when they posted their short instagram clip   At that time i asked tyler ferrell his take which was basically the shoulder is difficult to measure especially when the arms get above the shoulder  and too little information.     So i asked again with this recent video.   Tyler did some digging and had two main questions 1) how are they measuring and what standard is being used, 2) and ditto for forearm pronation/supination.   
 

tyler talked with dr rob neal who's system has the general pattern of ext rotation in early downswing.    He also has dr kwon's graph which shows ext in early downswing, and third, some amm/tpi graphs showing ext in early downswing    The amounts are small as expected but the opposite of what amg is showing   Tyler did talk to the gears creator and found that gears does not measure ext/int shoulder rotation -  so the question is what is amg using?   Tyler started a closed facebook group discussion on this which include mike and sean.    3d systems dont all do the same thing in terms of their measurement and data so, i understand, this is not the first time that differences have arisen.

 

on forearm pronation/supination tyler has lots of data that shows the trail forearm is still pronating by p5 before beginning to supinate.   He gave a presentation on elite swings arm motion a few years ago that included sup/pro, flex/ext wrists, and ulnar/radial and used waite and elkington as examples.  I posted some of his graphs in the past on some threads.

 

my take is this is clearly unresolved.    To say ext rotation is never happening in the early downswing is too strong given the countering data.

and tyler says that it would be a bad idea to intentionally try to go internal.

 

i still view the three key shallowers in early downswing, p4to p5, are ext shoulder rotation of trail arm, lead forearm pronation, and lead arm adduction typically happening in some combo - shallowing isnt just one thing.

 

tyler definitely agrees that ams over do the external rotation motion and the trail arm extending ,he appears more interested in understanding how the amg measurement are being done which is results different than systems used by golf researchers.    dr neal says he uses the intl society of biomechanics standards as his basis.   Sasho has told tyler that if he were doing research he would not know which calculation method he'd use.

 

I'm not posting this to debate but to share information.

 

 

[mgoblue83]

This is not black and white like some of you are making it. Arguing about degrees of arm bend at postion X is just asinine. It's going to be different for everyone based on build and posture and many other factors. 

 

@FormerBigDaddy is mostly correct that a proper athletic sequence achieves this without forcing positions or movements.

 

Thinking of the swing in 3d is infinitely better than the old school 2d positions but I still think too many people are forcing shallowing with their arms instead of getting in proper sequence. 

 

 

[Simpsonia]

27 minutes ago, glk said:

I had questions on how amg was measuring ext/int shoulder rotation back in august when they posted their short instagram clip   At that time i asked tyler ferrell his take which was basically the shoulder is difficult to measure especially when the arms get above the shoulder  and too little information.     So i asked again with this recent video.   Tyler did some digging and had two main questions 1) how are they measuring and what standard is being used, 2) and ditto for forearm pronation/supination.   
 

tyler talked with dr rob neal who's system has the general pattern of ext rotation in early downswing.    He also has dr kwon's graph which shows ext in early downswing, and third, some amm/tpi graphs showing ext in early downswing    The amounts are small as expected but the opposite of what amg is showing   Tyler did talk to the gears creator and found that gears does not measure ext/int shoulder rotation -  so the question is what is amg using?   Tyler started a closed facebook group discussion on this which include mike and sean.    3d systems dont all do the same thing in terms of their measurement and data so, i understand, this is not the first time that differences have arisen.

 

on forearm pronation/supination tyler has lots of data that shows the trail forearm is still pronating by p5 before beginning to supinate.   He gave a presentation on elite swings arm motion a few years ago that included sup/pro, flex/ext wrists, and ulnar/radial and used waite and elkington as examples.  I posted some of his graphs in the past on some threads.

 

my take is this is clearly unresolved.    To say ext rotation is never happening in the early downswing is too strong given the countering data.

and tyler says that it would be a bad idea to intentionally try to go internal.

 

i still view the three key shallowers in early downswing, p4to p5, are ext shoulder rotation of trail arm, lead forearm pronation, and lead arm adduction typically happening in some combo - shallowing isnt just one thing.

 

tyler definitely agrees that ams over do the external rotation motion and the trail arm extending ,he appears more interested in understanding how the amg measurement are being done which is results different than systems used by golf researchers.    dr neal says he uses the intl society of biomechanics standards as his basis.   Sasho has told tyler that if he were doing research he would not know which calculation method he'd use.

 

I'm not posting this to debate but to share information.

 

 

 

I mean isn't that why Dr. Kwon built his own 3D system that attaches sensors to bare skin, because AMM and GEARS were nowhere near accurate enough, right? Even with the GEARS harness, shoulders and shoulder blades can slide and move (small amounts) underneath the clothing without necessarily reflecting those movements via the sensors.

[airjammer]

24 minutes ago, glk said:

I had questions on how amg was measuring ext/int shoulder rotation back in august when they posted their short instagram clip   At that time i asked tyler ferrell his take which was basically the shoulder is difficult to measure especially when the arms get above the shoulder  and too little information.     So i asked again with this recent video.   Tyler did some digging and had two main questions 1) how are they measuring and what standard is being used, 2) and ditto for forearm pronation/supination.   
 

tyler talked with dr rob neal who's system has the general pattern of ext rotation in early downswing.    He also has dr kwon's graph which shows ext in early downswing, and third, some amm/tpi graphs showing ext in early downswing    The amounts are small as expected but the opposite of what amg is showing   Tyler did talk to the gears creator and found that gears does not measure ext/int shoulder rotation -  so the question is what is amg using?   Tyler started a closed facebook group discussion on this which include mike and sean.    3d systems dont all do the same thing in terms of their measurement and data so, i understand, this is not the first time that differences have arisen.

 

on forearm pronation/supination tyler has lots of data that shows the trail forearm is still pronating by p5 before beginning to supinate.   He gave a presentation on elite swings arm motion a few years ago that included sup/pro, flex/ext wrists, and ulnar/radial and used waite and elkington as examples.  I posted some of his graphs in the past on some threads.

 

my take is this is clearly unresolved.    To say ext rotation is never happening in the early downswing is too strong given the countering data.

and tyler says that it would be a bad idea to intentionally try to go internal.

 

i still view the three key shallowers in early downswing, p4to p5, are ext shoulder rotation of trail arm, lead forearm pronation, and lead arm adduction typically happening in some combo - shallowing isnt just one thing.

 

tyler definitely agrees that ams over do the external rotation motion and the trail arm extending ,he appears more interested in understanding how the amg measurement are being done which is results different than systems used by golf researchers.    dr neal says he uses the intl society of biomechanics standards as his basis.   Sasho has told tyler that if he were doing research he would not know which calculation method he'd use.

 

I'm not posting this to debate but to share information.

 

 

That’s some really cool information and also just as cool to witness the conversation happen. 
 

Mark Blackburn is probably the hottest coach right now. All of his students seem to exhibit the pinching in of the elbows in transition. I know it’s 2d but in this Homa video from today I can’t imagine how external his right shoulder must have been at the top if he internally rotated in transition. 
 

I would bet that if anything he didn’t add or subtract external rotation but definitely didn’t internally rotate. 
 

Anyway this is and always been a hot button topic since Gankas rose to prominence. It’s what is required to prompt people to develop new technology in the search of truth. 

[glk]

18 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I mean isn't that why Dr. Kwon built his own 3D system that attaches sensors to bare skin, because AMM and GEARS were nowhere near accurate enough, right? Even with the GEARS harness, shoulders and shoulder blades can slide and move (small amounts) underneath the clothing without necessarily reflecting those movements via the sensors.

Yes that is my understanding    He uses twice the sensors, higher speed cameras, and tapes the sensors to the body as much as possible.   He uses the old tpi rory kinematic sequence where rory appears to have his hips reverse as a example of motion  artifact where the sensor moves independent of the body.   He has had instructors ask him about abnormal motions they have seen in 3d graphs and it is more often than not sensor movement.

Edited January 24, 2023 by glk

[Krt22]

19 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

@FormerBigDaddy is mostly correct that a proper athletic sequence achieves this without forcing positions or movements.

 

 

 

 

This isn't remotely true. At the elite level of every sport there are coaches that focus exclusively on mechanics. There are hitting coaches, running coaches, throwing/pitching coaches, swimming coaches, etc. Technology is 100% aiding the evolution of peak athletic performance. There is a big difference between "forcing" things and learning NOT to do non-optimal things

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

This isn't remotely true. At the elite level of every sport there are coaches that focus exclusively on mechanics. There are hitting coaches, running coaches, throwing/pitching coaches, swimming coaches, etc. Technology is 100% aiding the evolution of peak athletic performance. There is a big difference between "forcing" things and learning NOT to do non-optimal things

It’s not like 95%+ of elite golfers have swing coaches.

 

The body shifting, tilting  and turning slows the rate at which the right elbow straightens and the wrists ulnar deviate.

 

If your intent is to unload those angles, you must shift, tilt and turn more as a result.  Works both ways.

 

We don’t see those angles unload until p4.5-p5.5 as a result.  If your intent is to hold either of those angles until then, the center of mass of the club will get out of position and you will stall and unload them at once.  Then someone on the range next to you will tell you you’re casting and you need to hold lag.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[glk]

16 minutes ago, airjammer said:

That’s some really cool information and also just as cool to witness the conversation happen. 
 

Mark Blackburn is probably the hottest coach right now. All of his students seem to exhibit the pinching in of the elbows in transition. I know it’s 2d but in this Homa video from today I can’t imagine how external his right shoulder must have been at the top if he internally rotated in transition. 
 

I would bet that if anything he didn’t add or subtract external rotation but definitely didn’t internally rotate. 
 

Anyway this is and always been a hot button topic since Gankas rose to prominence. It’s what is required to prompt people to develop new technology in the search of truth. 

I found that both tyler and dr kwon rarely dismiss new information out of hand   They both are more interested to learn from the information.  That was tyler take on this stuff - this is different, why?    Asked dr kwon about mike adams work and though dr kwon has his own data that shows no correlation to swing on anthropometric data he still asked if i knew if mike had any statistical analysis information - best i could do was point him at dr scott lynn whom has been working with adams and has talked about the possibility of doing a joint paper.   

[Jajo]

I should have never read any replies here. I Should have just watched the video and left. Too much conflicting information. He says this, he says that. He believes this, he believes that.  But here I still am 🥹

 

edit: what I do know as fact is that my swing was terrible before focusing on moving my arms better, now it’s a little less terrible. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Jajo

[glk]

2 minutes ago, Jajo said:

I should have never read any replies here. I Should have just watched the video and left. Too much conflicting information. He says this, he says that. He believes this, he believes that.  But here I still am 🥹

Application of science can be messy.  This 3d motion stuff and force plates is in it's infancy.  Challenging that the sun revolved around the earth cost galileo dearly.

Edited January 24, 2023 by glk

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s not like 95%+ of elite golfers have swing coaches.

 

 

 

 

And countless hacks who don't, for fear the swing coach will "mess them up" or get them swinging in a way that "doesn't feel natural"

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

And countless hacks who don't, for fear the swing coach will "mess them up" or get them swinging in a way that "doesn't feel natural"

“This feels weird”

 

Single biggest reason golfers don’t get better and it’s not close.

 

 

[RoyalTroon]

57 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

This is not black and white like some of you are making it.

 

@FormerBigDaddy is mostly correct that a proper athletic sequence achieves this without forcing positions or movements.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sean124]

This thread has it all. 

 

10/10 would recommend. 

[MysteryV]

One of the best videos I've seen for quite some time.  The isolation of the right arm movement is fantastic.  It really helped solidify Monte's "Cast A" and Milo's "Doorknob" feels.

 

I've been doing quite a bit of swing work recently with video and Quad data, and while things looked shallow from a movement perspective, my AoA was a couple degrees steeper than I'd like.  This video helped me identify the cause which had eluded me for a couple weeks.

 

Really good stuff.

[FormerBigDaddy]

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

 

No need to wait anymore. Here's your example. Would you like more pictures? Even has closed shoulders while the arms have came down and right arm has increaed the angle. I dont know how you can argue GEARS.

 

 

I said I was out, but I love the goat so I can't resist. 

 

That is not p5.  Lead arm parallel to the ground on the downswing is p5. Post a picture of him at p5 and tell me he's done much of any trail arm extension.

[FormerBigDaddy]

I found this video on TikTok awhile back and saved it. Here’s some screenshots, sorry I can’t remove the text. No it’s not mine and I didn’t play a round with Tiger. Ha! But it’s an interesting angle of his swing. Last pic of him is at p5. You’re telling me his right arm is extending to shallow? Tiger himself says he feels everything in his arms… but he’s almost maintained his trail arm angle all the way to left arm parallel. 
 

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[vandyfan]

Is it possible that the downswing happens so fast you have to feel like you are unfolding your arm early in the swing but due to the speed of your downswing it won't actually manifest itself until a few fractional seconds later like where tiger is above? 

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, vandyfan said:

Is it possible that the downswing happens so fast you have to feel like you are unfolding your arm early in the swing but due to the speed of your downswing it won't actually manifest itself until a few fractional seconds later like where tiger is above? 

That’s my thought…

[Hilts1969]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

That’s my thought…

You have thoughts:-)

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I said I was out, but I love the goat so I can't resist. 

 

That is not p5.  Lead arm parallel to the ground on the downswing is p5. Post a picture of him at p5 and tell me he's done much of any trail arm extension.

Haha welcome back!… Would this qualify?

[FormerBigDaddy]

Here’s the next 2 frames I could get AFTER P5. There’s the trail arm extension!