New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[Cmart050]

Will take time to implement. With all the effort in the world to drop the upper arm and extend the forearm, I still can’t connect the right arm to the body in the downswing. 
 

Also, has anyone else found they are dropping their right shoulder on the downswing as well? I’m having trouble isolating the right arm from the shoulder. 

[Zitlow]

There are lots of ways to get the job done. Comeaux isn't pivot oriented at all, his pivot is supporting the motion. 

 

 

The reason he hits the ball so well is because he isn't focused on a bunch of moving parts. 

 

 

 

[airjammer]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I saw this as well, unfortunately his explanation just doesn't pass the sniff test. In his examples of the arms not lowering, the arms are clearly lowering, even when he is using 2Ds to 

 

Perhaps the disconnect for this camp of folks is how the arms lowering is explained by those who advocate it. In those explanations, we see the instructor bring their arms all the way down/right arm losing flex with the back still to the target. This is done as a clear exaggeration to explain the proper motion and can even be a good explanation/feel for those who don't do it properly. In a real the arms don't lower that much that fast, nor does it look remotely like that on video once blended with the pivot. But for any golfer that doesn't do it, learning the exaggerated isolated movement is easier than learning a compound one. Monte's broom force and NTC are prime examples of this method

 

There is no doubt the super rotated, right side bend, more bent trail arm pattern requires less lowering of the arms, but the arms still come down no matter what, nearly impossible to hit the ball without them lowering.  But for whatever reason they market and explain it as the arms not lowering/pivot does all the work. Magnitude in this case is very important. Something happening less and something not happening at all are two very different things

 

I guess the real question is which is better? Does being super open, with tons of side bend, and a more bent trail arm lead to more power/accuracy/consistency? We already know there is zero correlation between rate of closure and consistency.

It’s been always my perception that GG and others believe that early lowering of the arms typically inhibits side bend and rotation because the sweet spot is closer to ball so why would your body side bend and dig a trench 6 inches behind the ball. 
 

All we know is the best players have the clubhead behind the hands and we have a billion dollar industry arguing how best to do that. Even with all this technology getting the club to be behind the hands at impact is still the hardest thing in sports to accomplish. 

[GungHoGolf]

Looking at this guy, who put a pretty good move on it back in the day…

 

I see a re-connected right elbow down to hip level, which means he lowered his upper arm really fast from the top combined with a little bit of right side bend. But that right elbow still looks close to 90° (hard to tell from 2D, but it’s close). 

 

Some might take the AMG info and think the right elbow needs to be rapidly extending from the top (what some call the “yo-yo move”). 

 

Monte, did/do your feels regarding the arm drop distinguish between upper arm lowering and elbow extension? Or was/is it a singular intention of getting them down, and the elbow extension just happens to occur last?

[airjammer]

4 minutes ago, Cmart050 said:

Will take time to implement. With all the effort in the world to drop the upper arm and extend the forearm, I still can’t connect the right arm to the body in the downswing. 
 

Also, has anyone else found they are dropping their right shoulder on the downswing as well? I’m having trouble isolating the right arm from the shoulder. 

Me and probably 10’s of thousands of other people have been trying for years ever since Harvey Penick’s book. I can’t say I’ve met someone who could. 

[kobe123]

Milo also teaches this, which I don't find in tour swings. I don't see the tailbone face the opposite way of the target in transition. Additionally, I still have yet to see any data that the pivot shallows it. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnMvIJ5oOFI/

Edited January 23, 2023 by kobe123

[kobe123]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Looking at this guy, who put a pretty good move on it back in the day…

 

I see a re-connected right elbow down to hip level, which means he lowered his upper arm really fast from the top combined with a little bit of right side bend. But that right elbow still looks close to 90° (hard to tell from 2D, but it’s close). 

 

Some might take the AMG info and think the right elbow needs to be rapidly extending from the top (what some call the “yo-yo move”). 

 

Monte, did/do your feels regarding the arm drop distinguish between upper arm lowering and elbow extension? Or was/is it a singular intention of getting them down, and the elbow extension just happens to occur last?

 

Is that Faldo?

[Krt22]

32 minutes ago, airjammer said:

It’s been always my perception that GG and others believe that early lowering of the arms typically inhibits side bend and rotation because the sweet spot is closer to ball so why would your body side bend and dig a trench 6 inches behind the ball. 
 

Yeah that is what they say, but not what really happens. They use the example where they drop them all the way down all at once, say "don't do this", and instead "leave them up".  Do they lower a lot from the top? No, but they do start to come down right away. Even his prototypical players have the level of their arms relative to their shoulders change some from P4 to P5.

 

That is my main qualm with their approach, they are treating differences in magnitude in an absolute manner, as if you can completely replace lowering of the arms with rotation and side bend. Every good player raises their arms in the backswing and lowers them in transition, truly keeping them up would lead to a complete whiff. 

[Mono]

AMG teased this video a few months back - i've been waiting for it - good stuff - shallowing with the hands/ wrists - speeding up the arms - seems so much easier, esp for those that hang back

 

Monte - appreciate all your imput here - great stuff - nice and balanced

 

i love watching MP and JN hit the golf ball it seems really similar to what GG/ Milo are talking about - it looks super athletic - for a 50 yo seems like a stretch to retool like that completely and for serious younger players i think the question is what is most repeatable, idk - i'll leave it to the pros

 

i think what seems to get left out or the GG/ Milo camp dont seem to be currently articulating very well is that while 'turning' is clearly a steepener, 'tilting' should be a shallower, if you are 25 degree left tilted at the top of the back swing - just tilting back to neutral would flatten the shaft - at some point everyone except real hackers tilts right in the downswing , first back to neutral - then a little more 

 

anyway - best thread in a long time!

 

[Ex Blade User]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I saw this as well, unfortunately his explanation just doesn't pass the sniff test. In his examples of the arms not lowering, the arms are clearly lowering, even when he is using 2Ds to 

 

Perhaps the disconnect for this camp of folks is how the arms lowering is explained by those who advocate it. In those explanations, we see the instructor bring their arms all the way down/right arm losing flex with the back still to the target. This is done as a clear exaggeration to explain the proper motion and can even be a good explanation/feel for those who don't do it properly. In a real the arms don't lower that much that fast, nor does it look remotely like that on video once blended with the pivot. But for any golfer that doesn't do it, learning the exaggerated isolated movement is easier than learning a compound one. Monte's broom force and NTC are prime examples of this method

 

There is no doubt the super rotated, right side bend, more bent trail arm pattern requires less lowering of the arms, but the arms still come down no matter what, nearly impossible to hit the ball without them lowering.  But for whatever reason they market and explain it as the arms not lowering/pivot does all the work. Magnitude in this case is very important. Something happening less and something not happening at all are two very different things

 

I guess the real question is which is better? Does being super open, with tons of side bend, and a more bent trail arm lead to more power/accuracy/consistency? We already know there is zero correlation between rate of closure and consistency.

Agree he said the hands aren’t lowering but they’re clearly lower than the trail shoulder and the angle in the right arm has opened up some. It’s physically impossible NOT to lower your hands from the top. If you turn like he does the right shoulder drops significantly and I believe that takes constant maintenance. I mean he says he sees the best players in the world doing the body motions he stars but I seriously don’t see them at all. None of GGs students are on tour (pga) consistently and Ruiz who is a model swing if his can’t even make a cut on the Canadian

tour. 

[airjammer]

18 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yeah that is what they say, but not what really happens. They use the example where they drop them all the way down all at once, say "don't do this", and instead "leave them up".  Do they lower a lot from the top? No, but they do start to come down right away. Even his prototypical players have the level of their arms relative to their shoulders change some from P4 to P5.

 

That is my main qualm with their approach, they are treating differences in magnitude in an absolute manner, as if you can completely replace lowering of the arms with rotation and side bend. Every good player raises their arms in the backswing and lowers them in transition, truly keeping them up would lead to a complete whiff. 

Correct, but it’s that where intent comes in? 

People’s arms weigh around 12 pounds a piece and you move them around 16 mph or higher on the downswing…you can’t stop them from extending. 
 

Amg in the past talks about peak hand speed. It’s still the same conversation…pin the lead arm on the chest and use the chest as the main source of hand speed acceleration or use more of the right arm earlier and brace with the upper body…both can be effective it seems. 
 

All in all with massive amounts 3d data we are still have the same discussions as we did almost 15 years ago when I join golfwrx and in my opinion we still don’t know how our mind can control a golf club swinging at over 100 to hit a round ball to a precise talked 250+ yards away but boy is it fun to discuss. 
 

 

 

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Correct, but it’s that where intent comes in? 
 

 

 

If it was explained as an intent/feel that is 100% ok. It's become a point of contention because they are trying to pass it off as fact, which AMG counters with objective data.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I saw this as well, unfortunately his explanation just doesn't pass the sniff test. In his examples of the arms not lowering, the arms are clearly lowering, even when he is using 2Ds to 

 

Perhaps the disconnect for this camp of folks is how the arms lowering is explained by those who advocate it. In those explanations, we see the instructor bring their arms all the way down/right arm losing flex with the back still to the target. This is done as a clear exaggeration to explain the proper motion and can even be a good explanation/feel for those who don't do it properly. In a real the arms don't lower that much that fast, nor does it look remotely like that on video once blended with the pivot. But for any golfer that doesn't do it, learning the exaggerated isolated movement is easier than learning a compound one. Monte's broom force and NTC are prime examples of this method

 

There is no doubt the super rotated, right side bend, more bent trail arm pattern requires less lowering of the arms, but the arms still come down no matter what, nearly impossible to hit the ball without them lowering.  But for whatever reason they market and explain it as the arms not lowering/pivot does all the work. Magnitude in this case is very important. Something happening less and something not happening at all are two very different things

 

I guess the real question is which is better? Does being super open, with tons of side bend, and a more bent trail arm lead to more power/accuracy/consistency? We already know there is zero correlation between rate of closure and consistency.

One could also say if you unload the elbow and lower the arms, your force yourself into right side bend and rotation.  😁

 

Heres my issue.  So many golfers right tilt early.  

[Hilts1969]

I like Milo watch a lot of his stuff but he lowers his arms. Even in the many turn the door handle rotate the phone ones he is lowering them. Do that at speed and you will definitely lower them.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Looking at this guy, who put a pretty good move on it back in the day…

/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/023EE202-91E9-4138-9D5F-B8A7F51988FF.jpeg.1a4a5b2c7b97006121f112448421a75c.jpeg

 

I see a re-connected right elbow down to hip level, which means he lowered his upper arm really fast from the top combined with a little bit of right side bend. But that right elbow still looks close to 90° (hard to tell from 2D, but it’s close). 

 

Some might take the AMG info and think the right elbow needs to be rapidly extending from the top (what some call the “yo-yo move”). 

 

Monte, did/do your feels regarding the arm drop distinguish between upper arm lowering and elbow extension? Or was/is it a singular intention of getting them down, and the elbow extension just happens to occur last?

I tried to unload every angle as fast as I could.  I ruined my game when I went down all the angle holding rabbit holes.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

One could also say if you unload the elbow and lower the arms, your force yourself into right side bend and rotation.  😁

 

Heres my issue.  So many golfers right tilt early.  

lol precisely.  6 of one, half a dozen of another. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s is the issue I said above.  You have to abandon 1 dimensional thinking.

 

Its the whole premise behind the no turn cast.

 

There are opposing forces, zeroing out a position with one movement is a way to suck like a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

 

 

Shift, turn, accelerate arms on time and cast, gives you way more lag than shoving it it there with a giant float load and hold.

[PracticeSwinger]

50 minutes ago, Mono said:

AMG teased this video a few months back - i've been waiting for it - good stuff - shallowing with the hands/ wrists - speeding up the arms - seems so much easier, esp for those that hang back

 

Monte - appreciate all your imput here - great stuff - nice and balanced

 

i love watching MP and JN hit the golf ball it seems really similar to what GG/ Milo are talking about - it looks super athletic - for a 50 yo seems like a stretch to retool like that completely and for serious younger players i think the question is what is most repeatable, idk - i'll leave it to the pros

 

i think what seems to get left out or the GG/ Milo camp dont seem to be currently articulating very well is that while 'turning' is clearly a steepener, 'tilting' should be a shallower, if you are 25 degree left tilted at the top of the back swing - just tilting back to neutral would flatten the shaft - at some point everyone except real hackers tilts right in the downswing , first back to neutral - then a little more 

 

anyway - best thread in a long time!

 

As an aside, I asked Milo about right side bending (on his pvc pole across the shoulders move he advocates) asking more like Mito and less like Nelly?... and he replied saying to watch her ribs, she bends also... so I'm guessing there is some of what you mention here, depending on where you were at the top...

 

I guess right side bend comes down to intent from the top or reaction from a good sequence of other moves... and everyone has to figure out their own feels

 

Agreed - best thread in a while !

[RoyalTroon]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

There are lots of ways to get the job done. Comeaux isn't pivot oriented at all, his pivot is supporting the motion. 

 

 

The reason he hits the ball so well is because he isn't focused on a bunch of moving parts. 

 

 

 

 

+1 ...and Comeaux's trail arm fold seems to be an antithesis to AMG sticking a fist in the elbow cup to measure a distance to be from the trail shoulder, as if there isn't a way to sequence something more than 90....  Amazing watching this unfold, no pun intended.

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, kobe123 said:

 

Is that Faldo?

It's Monte in 1993, winning the national long drive competition.

Edited January 23, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[dblinden]

49 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I tried to unload every angle as fast as I could. 

 

Everyone obviously has their own issues and demons. I find unbending the trail elbow from the top an easy motion to execute. Only other swing thought is get and maintain a flat left wrist. Hand and clubhead speed feel so much faster. Getting to left side and follow through more automatic. No other thoughts at all.  

[johnrobison]

6 hours ago, Kuuuch said:

Milo’s response to the AMG video. He also commented on montes IG post about the AMG video  

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnwufDIoUDN/?igshid=YWJhMjlhZTc=

Wow. What he's saying simply does not match what he's doing. His right arm movement in his good example pivot is completely different than his right arm movement in his steep example pivot.

[Rbsiedsc]

i just spent 20 mins doing those drills they stated. holy s***. i have to work to get into those positions but then when i rotate it feels effortless. going to do these every day for 2 months and see if i start seeing results. My coach told me I need to drop the arms to start the down swing and this will really help

Edited January 23, 2023 by Rbsiedsc

[Ex Blade User]

5 hours ago, kobe123 said:

Milo also teaches this, which I don't find in tour swings. I don't see the tailbone face the opposite way of the target in transition. Additionally, I still have yet to see any data that the pivot shallows it. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnMvIJ5oOFI/

Whenever I think of these feels my right shoulder just flies out to the ball or straight down. The amg/monte move def helps keep that upper body in check 

[Kuuuch]

Thinking more about the video Milo posted, it’s another reminder what he teaches and others is more similar than I think. It’s really just the rejection of the idea the arms need to lower. Tbh I think milo’s way and others like him is much harder than it needs to be. 
 

Dan had me hit balls off a half foam roller to get the right side bend matching the left side bend I created at the top of the backswing. Much easier to feel the crunch he’s referring to

[RobertBaron]

Happened to be looking at this Milo Lines vid and noticed at 2:09 (to my eye at least) that his hand path kicks out like the AMG guys say it will if the hands stay with the shoulder rotation. Thought it might be interesting to the discussion.

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, Kuuuch said:

Thinking more about the video Milo posted, it’s another reminder what he teaches and others is more similar than I think. It’s really just the rejection of the idea the arms need to lower. Tbh I think milo’s way and others like him is much harder than it needs to be. 
 

Dan had me hit balls off a half foam roller to get the right side bend matching the left side bend I created at the top of the backswing. Much easier to feel the crunch he’s referring to

I’m afraid it’s about to get even more complicated..enter jacobs 3d. 
 

I saw this video a while back and while Amg really breaks things down into a TLDR version it doesn’t begin to scratch the surface on what really the discussion should be imo. 
 

The TLDW version of the above video is that Padraig did exactly what AMG is advocating and was much slower than his current self after basically adding in some chest linear movement in transition. 
 

Like i said in a private conversation with another member…there is still several unknown missing pieces to lowering the arms feel as it seems its been around forever but isn’t the magic bullet for almost everyone. If it was we wouldn’t be still talking about it…it would be a fundamental. 

[Ex Blade User]

1 hour ago, Kuuuch said:

Thinking more about the video Milo posted, it’s another reminder what he teaches and others is more similar than I think. It’s really just the rejection of the idea the arms need to lower. Tbh I think milo’s way and others like him is much harder than it needs to be. 
 

Dan had me hit balls off a half foam roller to get the right side bend matching the left side bend I created at the top of the backswing. Much easier to feel the crunch he’s referring to

Yea that’s what being disconnected is that because you’re feeling lowering your arms it’s not like the side bend goes away. You need it to get to the ball as well 

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, Kuuuch said:

Thinking more about the video Milo posted, it’s another reminder what he teaches and others is more similar than I think. It’s really just the rejection of the idea the arms need to lower. Tbh I think milo’s way and others like him is much harder than it needs to be. 
 

Dan had me hit balls off a half foam roller to get the right side bend matching the left side bend I created at the top of the backswing. Much easier to feel the crunch he’s referring to

 

Def a harder way to do it but maybe it is easier for some. It does seem to me harder on the body, you don't want a lot of trail side bend into the shot. Discussed a ton on PGA TOUR ranges I guess because it's not good for longevity. Any way I can help my body stay more neutral by using my arms I'm all for.

[Nels55]

Okay I have been following this thread for a while and I have a few thoughts...  At the moment I am thinking of this discussion in terms of two plane vs. one plane swing which might make some sense? 

 

In a one plane swing the golfer has a lot of bend from the hips at address and swings back with a steep shoulder turn keeping the lead upper arm connected to the pec.  This results in a swing where the lead arm ends up across the shoulders or close to that at the top of the swing.  This is a swing with a flatter swing plane.  From this position there is a lot less need for the arms to drop and it can feel like the body is simply turning and the arms get flung off of the shoulders at some point.  This can be called a connected swing.

 

In a two plane swing the golfer is more erect and the shoulders turn more level while the arms go up and down and the lead arm does not stay connected at all.  With this swing the idea of back to the target while the arms drop at the top is something that can be effective.  This can be called a synchronized swing because the arms and the body turn have to be synched correctly to get a good club path.

 

LOL obviously there is a lot of variation in real life but maybe there is a kernel of truth in there?  Or maybe not...