New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[johnrobison]

7 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I really don't care what this video is saying... show me tiger woods at p5 and tell me that arm is not at nearly 90*.  Shallowing happens before p5.  I like AMG but show me a video of how they do their 3d modeling and who the pro's are that they say they're using in gears. 

"Shallowing" happens long before P5 since the club is at its shallowest at P4. Straightening the right arm and lowering the hands is simply keeping the club on that plane. You're thinking in 2D. In addition to the data coming from gears, look at Tiger or Rory (or any pro) at P5 and the amount of space they've created between their hands and trail shoulder. How did that distance increase if they aren't straightening their trail arm?

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

lol did you even watch the video? Come one man, if you are going to argue, at least argue with the data, this is nothing more than hand waiving. Are you really trying to compare 2D angles when the motion happens in 3D? No one is saying the trail arm unfolds fully/immediately at the top, it's something that starts at the top and ends at impact. For someone who does not do this correctly, the feel/intention can be to unfold it all right away, but that is not what actually happens once you combine it with the pivot. That doesn't mean the pivot is responsible however, it means the pivot works in conjunction with the arms. Steep body, shallow arms, good result

Zero chance the trail arm unfolds and extends before the body starts to rotate. 
 

Show me pics of your pros at p5. Tiger literally as more right elbow flexion at p5 than he does at the top. You guys are insane. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

2 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

"Shallowing" happens long before P5 since the club is at its shallowest at P4. Straightening the right arm and lowering the hands is simply keeping the club on that plane. You're thinking in 2D. In addition to the data coming from gears, look at Tiger or Rory (or any pro) at P5 and the amount of space they've created between their hands and trail shoulder. How did that distance increase if they aren't straightening their trail arm?

Bc you can move your lead arm without extending the trail arm!

[FormerBigDaddy]

Y’all have fun. I’m out of this thread. Tiger is arguably the best to ever do it and you’re gonna tell me his right arm isn’t at 90* at p5. Ok!

[johnrobison]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Bc you can move your lead arm without extending the trail arm!

Not relative to your rib cage, you can't. You can move it in space while moving the rib cage (steepening move) but once you move it independently of the chest your trail arm must straighten. That's just the basic geometry of it.

[Zitlow]

20 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

+1 ...and Comeaux's trail arm fold seems to be an antithesis to AMG sticking a fist in the elbow cup to measure a distance to be from the trail shoulder, as if there isn't a way to sequence something more than 90....  Amazing watching this unfold, no pun intended.

 

My default position is to trust the science.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Zitlow

[me05501]

"I'm going to jump into a thread about a specific video that I refuse to watch, and use 2-D pictures plus my own biases to refute the information I refuse to digest." 
 

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

Just now, johnrobison said:

Not relative to your rib cage, you can't. You can move it in space while moving the rib cage (steepening move) but once you move it independently of the chest your trail arm must straighten. That's just the basic geometry of it.

Not if you’re tilting into right side bend at the same time! Lol

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Zero chance the trail arm unfolds and extends before the body starts to rotate. 
 

Show me pics of your pros at p5. Tiger literally as more right elbow flexion at p5 than he does at the top. You guys are insane. 

Did you even listen to anything I said lol? I just said the trail arm doesn't fully unfold immediately at the top, I said it STARTS to. There is a big difference between those two statements. If you can't comprehend the difference, you literally have zero idea what you are talking about. Debating with a 3D motion with someone using angles in 2D stills is a complete fool's errand. Basing instruction off angles derived from 2D stills ruined otherwise good swings for decades

 

I highly suggest you rewatch the video, try your absolute best to turn off your stubborn preconceived notions of what happens in the golf swing, and just listen. Try your best to absorb what they are saying and understand what data they they are presenting, and you might actually learn something new.

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

32 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

Would this qualify?

[johnrobison]

Just now, FormerBigDaddy said:

Not if you’re tilting into right side bend at the same time! Lol

In which case you've done the former and not moved it independently of the rib cage. All good players' hands are farther from their trail shoulder at P5 than they were at P4. Literally physically impossible without the trail arm straightening. Cognitive dissonance.

[Rdailey9108]

Didn't Dan C (Iteach) make a thread about you can't straighten the trail arm too fast if your pivot is correct????

[Ex Blade User]

19 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

ok.... You're going to tell me he shallowed by extending his right arm?  It's still at 90* and he's already shallowed.  But ok.

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/C7EB11DD-98C6-4F48-870C-F6CA4D1E9023.jpeg.dcf7998c80685f1c97fed04bdab592f0.jpeg

Camera angle if you look behind he’s open of 90 for sure 

[FormerBigDaddy]

Be an athlete. 
 

Take an object and throw it with power. You shift, turn, then throw. 
 

You don’t skip a rock or throw a baseball by throwing the arm and then turning. I’m sorry!

 

You don’t hit a tennis ball by swinging your arm with the racket before shifting and turning hips and body. 
 

Use common sense you guys. 
 

The shift before the turn puts you in to right side bend shallowing the club. 
 

you guys believe what you want

 

Shift, Turn, and Swing the arms last. I said what I said. 
 

Have fun you guys. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Be an athlete. 
 

Take an object and throw it. You shift, turn, then throw. 
 

You don’t skip a rock or throw a baseball by throwing the arm and then turning. I’m sorry!

 

You don’t hit a tennis ball by swinging your arm with the racket before shifting and turning hips and body. 
 

Use common sense you guys. 

Why aren't you scratch already then? 

[Sean124]

Just now, Krt22 said:

Why aren't you scratch already then? 

[kobe123]

5 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Not if you’re tilting into right side bend at the same time! Lol

[airjammer]

28 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

AMG simply isolated the movement of the arms to show what's happening in good swings. Whether someone subconsciously does it automatically, or whether someone has to make it happen correctly is irrelevant to their premise. What they're saying is that if you're under the impression that the hands should stay up and, in doing so, the pivot will get the club on the correct plane, you have a misunderstanding of the swing. Their blender drill is exactly what happens in good swings - the right arm straightens down, lowering the hands, at the same time that the left side opens, bringing the hands around. Whether someone needs to do that drill depends entirely on what they're already doing and what their perception of a correct swing is.

 

Jacobs wasn't saying that Padraig was accelerating his arms too soon and had to learn to keep his left arm up longer. He was saying that Padraig had to work on moving his upper center - linear momentum - toward the target. Though they may appear to be the same thing, they're quite different. And, again, I have no doubt that AMG would agree with him.

No I don’t believe you keep you hands up because it’s impossible not to extend them coming down and especially coming into impact. On the flip side staying level and lowering your arms while just pushing your front hip open isn’t going to work either. 
 

Here is another opinion…Steve Furlonger has force plates and 3d just like AMG. This is how he believes you increase hand speed…imagine that it’s a combination of extending the arms and lowering of the chest. 

It’s definitely not the blender drill. Amg has shown and well as others including Rory one of the drills. I think that drill is way better drill than the blender drill. 
 

 

[johnrobison]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Be an athlete. 
 

Take an object and throw it with power. You shift, turn, then throw. 
 

You don’t skip a rock or throw a baseball by throwing the arm and then turning. I’m sorry!

 

You don’t hit a tennis ball by swinging your arm with the racket before shifting and turning hips and body. 
 

Use common sense you guys. 

That's been said here repeatedly. The opening of the lead side (rotation, pivot, whatever) has to happen in sync. AMG has said it countless times. The hands are lowering and the trail arm is straightening WHILE the lead side is opening. Nobody that I can recall argues otherwise.

 

Again... How do the hands get farther away from the trail shoulder if the trail arm isn't straightening?

[kobe123]

4 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Be an athlete. 
 

Take an object and throw it with power. You shift, turn, then throw. 
 

You don’t skip a rock or throw a baseball by throwing the arm and then turning. I’m sorry!

 

You don’t hit a tennis ball by swinging your arm with the racket before shifting and turning hips and body. 
 

Use common sense you guys. 
 

The shift before the turn puts you in to right side bend shallowing the club. 
 

you guys believe what you want

 

Facts > Feelings/Opinons. 

 

Gears shows the right arm extends and the pivot/chest rotation is a steepener. 

[ferrispgm]

3 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Be an athlete. 
 

Take an object and throw it with power. You shift, turn, then throw. 
 

You don’t skip a rock or throw a baseball by throwing the arm and then turning. I’m sorry!

 

You don’t hit a tennis ball by swinging your arm with the racket before shifting and turning hips and body. 
 

Use common sense you guys. 
 

The shift before the turn puts you in to right side bend shallowing the club. 
 

you guys believe what you want

 

So why is everyone trying to argue with an 8.2 handicap?  This is precisely why getting lessons from other people on the range is a bad idea.  I can see him helping someone now...."Bob, you need to shift before you turn"  Bob proceeds to duck hook everything from the arms lagging behind. "Good, now just get more passive with the hands"....and Bob goes from a 10 to a 18hc. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

Lots of non athletes here I see. 😂 

[johnrobison]

3 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No I don’t believe you keep you hands up because it’s impossible not to extend them coming down and especially coming into impact. On the flip side staying level and lowering your arms while just pushing your front hip open isn’t going to work either. 
 

Here is another opinion…Steve Furlonger has force plates and 3d just like AMG. This is how he believes you increase hand speed…imagine that it’s a combination of extending the arms and lowering of the chest. 

It’s definitely not the blender drill. Amg has shown and well as others including Rory one of the drills. I think that drill is way better drill than the blender drill. 
 

 

Chest down is also a great feel for some. But it actually isn't just going down - it's going around in a big way. If you prefer this drill over the blender, that's great - use it - but they're accomplishing the same thing. The hands are lowering and the lead side is opening. I like this drill, too, especially for someone who struggles to open the lead side while also keeping the trail side back.

 

In either case, you're not staying level and pushing your lead hip back - you're opening up your entire lead side.

[Krt22]

 

From hands well above his shoulder line and trail arm completely folded, to hands well below his shoulder line, trail arm much less folded. Still very little side bend at this point.

 

The lower body and pivot clearly at work😂 

[Ex Blade User]

29 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

So Rory is shallowing by extending his right arm?? Lol you guys can’t be serious. 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/3E5FB71D-9C7B-41DD-ADBD-EC76AF116DB9.jpeg.fb6eae34ec87404b05a3e7db302f69a3.jpeg

His arm is not 90 degrees it’s prob 110

[johnrobison]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Lots of non athletes here I see. 😂 

Many athletes describe what they're doing/feeling and are completely wrong about what's actually happening.

 

Once again... How do the hands get farther away from the trail shoulder if the trail arm isn't straightening?

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Lots of non athletes here I see. 😂 

Some of the best athletes in the world will get absolutely waxed by a 5'4" 120lb lady on the golf course. Such a BS stance

[Doodlebug87]

This is clearly an emotive, divisive topic despite arguing raw data. AMG use tour pro data, presumably GEARS comes with a number of models and I'm sure AMG have had numerous tour pros on their premises. The examples above show Sergio and Rory having connected their elbow to their hip ie they have clearly lowered their arms in space and are beginning to straighten the trail arm but it is masked by the pivot. Neither of them have a huge amount of side bend at this point like ML or GG would show. They haven't fully extended their trail arm yet but it will be extending like crazy from this point in the swing through impact. The data shows what happens in an average elite swing, not necessarily the outliers as none of us mortals should be attempting any kind of swing which requires compensations unless we are a) young or b) have 8 hours each day to practice! That said, the ML or GG model clearly works and I do think you would see a lot more side bend and less arm extension, but in my view it takes a lot more maintenance and dexterity to perform the move successfully. Definitely not for me, but if you can make it work it sure looks pretty. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Doodlebug87

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Why aren't you scratch already then? 

He can’t figure out which of his three swings he wants to use or which aha moment gets him there

[green5]

8 hours ago, Nickc said:

Dropping arms nothing new as many pointed out.

 

Look at about 4.50 mark

 

It's a subtle difference but in the video the instructor states the motion feels as if the butt end of the club is dropping towards the ball and that ruined many golf swings including my own. Many amateurs combined that traditional teaching with Harvey Penick's magic move and increased the trailing arm bend while bringing the club down and ended up in a OTT position.

 

The takeaways from the AMG video for me are how the pros' clubs fell much more vertically first rather than moving towards the ball, and how little right arm bend the pros have compared to the ams and how quickly that bend goes away.

Edited January 24, 2023 by green5