New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Never really thought about it, haven’t read 5 lessons for years but that picture with the glass looks eerily like the Justin rose drill. Mind blown

 

and second picture like Sergio. The right arm is almost straight while retaining wrist angle. 
 

amazing to me how the old greats figured this stuff out without video or even cameras at the time. Love this game. 

Good call - that first image is basically what the AMG video is all about and in accordance with what Monte, Shauheen, Hutt and others posted here on shallowing… and the second image is awesome also, hands not going out (that would jackknife) like many do to try and fake exiting ‘low and left’ 

[Golfbeat]

I just wanted to add this video where the lowering of the arms is explained together with the leg work. This is exactly the issue I have been struggling with for way too long.

 

 

 

[Ex Blade User]

53 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

I just wanted to add this video where the lowering of the arms is explained together with the leg work. This is exactly the issue I have been struggling with for way too long.

 

 

 

Is there a specific moment in video? It’s almost an hour long haha

[Kuuuch]

3 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Is there a specific moment in video? It’s almost an hour long haha

It started for me at the 25:40 mark which is where the good info golfbeat is referring to is. 

[Kuuuch]

58 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

I just wanted to add this video where the lowering of the arms is explained together with the leg work. This is exactly the issue I have been struggling with for way too long.

 

 

 

This is great stuff. 2 big things I had to learn the hard way that are in this video: 

 

1) trying to get open usually results in less open. 
 

2) trying to get the hands left post impact is no bueno. I was guilty of wanting that “look” but it will naturally happen when the legs are working correctly/extending and straightening which works the hands in and up. But as they said in the video, often times there are things that can prohibit us from extending correctly. In an attempt to cover the ball more (obsession on rotation like others) I pretty much made it impossible to extend properly which actually limits rotation and face control. 

[Ex Blade User]

30 minutes ago, Kuuuch said:

This is great stuff. 2 big things I had to learn the hard way that are in this video: 

 

1) trying to get open usually results in less open. 
 

2) trying to get the hands left post impact is no bueno. I was guilty of wanting that “look” but it will naturally happen when the legs are working correctly/extending and straightening which works the hands in and up. But as they said in the video, often times there are things that can prohibit us from extending correctly. In an attempt to cover the ball more (obsession on rotation like others) I pretty much made it impossible to extend properly which actually limits rotation and face control. 

So true. Always have to remember golf is the reverse of everything you think it is lol. Want it high and soft out if a bunker? Hit more down! Want to carve left? Aim right! Lol The more I try to hit a draw I swear I hit more of a healy swipes crap cut. Fascinating game 

 

didn’t hogan say if you did the opposite of every natural instinct when hitting a golf ball you’d probably have a pretty sound golf swing??

[getitdaily]

I saw this video as a big supplement to the one originally posted.

 

[johnrobison]

7 hours ago, Kuuuch said:

This is great stuff. 2 big things I had to learn the hard way that are in this video: 

 

1) trying to get open usually results in less open. 
 

2) trying to get the hands left post impact is no bueno. I was guilty of wanting that “look” but it will naturally happen when the legs are working correctly/extending and straightening which works the hands in and up. But as they said in the video, often times there are things that can prohibit us from extending correctly. In an attempt to cover the ball more (obsession on rotation like others) I pretty much made it impossible to extend properly which actually limits rotation and face control. 

Totally agree. Once you accept that the hands lower, getting open will happen. In fact, it has to happen or you'll stick the club in the ground (or maybe stand up and dump it under). The hands lowering is keeping the shaft on the correct plane. The body opening in sync with that, is moving the club around. The "exit left" look will naturally follow.

[Valtiel]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:19 AM, me05501 said:

It seems like the biggest difference between GG and many others is that Gankas has players side bending intentionally where more traditional instructors seem to think that side bending happens more passively. 

 

 

 

On 1/19/2023 at 1:20 PM, kobe123 said:

 

Exactly. Put a GG guy on gears, I'd guarantee that they do exactly what AMG says, shallowing it with the arms. The chest/body rotation is a steepener. 

 

Not sure how anyone can argue against AMG, when they have data to back it up. 

 

On 1/19/2023 at 1:32 PM, Krt22 said:

Humans are strange creatures once ego, personal anecdotes, etc come into play, even more so in a space that has been ruled by thoughts and opinions for decades. There are still tons of people who argue against strokes gained data.  

This is what bothers me about golf instruction as a whole and guys like GG specifically. I suppose it's to be expected that you'll have growing pains when things become much more data driven and that data conflicts with "feels", but it's the stubbornness of these types of coaches and their commitments to their own philosophies that just reeks of 5th grader "nuh uh, *I* know the best way!". It's exhausting and just confuses people, especially if as mentioned we'd find that ultimately the same points are being argued just from different angles.  

[Jim Waldron]

10 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I saw this video as a big supplement to the one originally posted.

 

 

Kind of reminds me of this video...last few minutes of it. First part is the wrist release version of how the Levers work in the downswing.

[Jim Waldron]

10 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I saw this video as a big supplement to the one originally posted.

 

 

Kind of reminds me of this video...last few minutes of it. First part is the wrist release version of how the Levers work in the downswing.  And this one too....

 

[biglefthander]

Super interesting videos - I am a lefty who does most everything else athletic right handed, so I’ve had a very lead arm dominant swing/been on the wrong side of steep my entire life. I can get away with it with the driver, but it just doesn’t work further on down the bag.
 

I played to scratch in a prior life when I had the time to get enough reps in where I could get away with being a steep/standing up picker. But if I am ever going to get back there on significantly fewer rounds a year due to career/family obligations, I need to strike the ball better than I am now.
 

I have never understood any of the flattening cues/how the trail arm contributes to an on plane swing until this thread. To see if I was getting it, I took a kids wedge for a 42” tall tot and recorded a few trail-hand only swings hitting foam balls off of a shin high cardboard box - sure enough these swings were much flatter than my normal swing.
 

I had one range session since and while I have a lot of work to do to get my trail arm in the right position at the top, the feel of throwing those angles away from the target with the trail arm had me hitting the ball with an ball flight absolutely new to me. I took an alignment stick and was making trail hand swings between balls which helped prevent my ingrained swing from leaking in. Hopefully this is more than a fleeting feel 🤞

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, johnrobison said:

Totally agree. Once you accept that the hands lower, getting open will happen. In fact, it has to happen or you'll stick the club in the ground (or maybe stand up and dump it under). The hands lowering is keeping the shaft on the correct plane. The body opening in sync with that, is moving the club around. The "exit left" look will naturally follow.

Here’s the problem…and I’m doing a presentation at the open forum at the pga golf show on Tuesday night on this……

 

The golf swing has always been judged and taught in 1 dimension from analyzing 2D stills.

 

Chris Como and Nick Chertock asked me to do a presentation on myths and misconceptions not just by golfers, but on far too many lesson tees.

 

On two minutes (I timed myself) I came up with over 30 cliches that are at best misperceived and at worst just plain wrong…and in many cases, sadly, the opposite of what good players do.

 

Face on lag is one of the 3 topics I’m focusing on.  Everyone sees 2D stills of pros with face on lag and hacks with that angle dumped and the answer is hold lag.  
 

That is such one dimensional thinking.  First off you can’t hold that angle.  You’re not strong enough.  The laws of physics are throwing it away so you can actually make semi-competent impact without hurting yourself.  Just plain holding it, or forcing a major float load to get some is a disaster 100% of the time.  
 

If the body is shifting and rotating toward the target and the arms are accelerating toward the target, you can’t physically cast on purpose too early.

 

Plus forcing lag (radial deviation) into a swing actively almost always extends the lead wrist and tips the shaft put….and that is a slice/shank.
 

Down the line lag, or center of mass behind your hands at P6 is the lag that’s important and that’s been measured by people far smarter than me like Sasho M.

 

The way you fix casting and get lag is to avoid a backswing that’s too long for you, get the wrists in a manageable position at the top, shift properly, rotate at the correct time and sequence properly…among other things.  In that order if you are missing one of those things, you MUST dump early or the results will be catastrophic.  
 

Now back to down the line lag.  Guess what’s the easiest way to get that?  Dump the face on lag behind the hands…and that, along with all of the things I listed above is how you get real face on lag.

 

Seems daunting.  It’s not.  Fix your first issue, the others get better by default and you get more lag….and so on.

 

If you don’t believe me or any of the data, just read golf my way.

 

You can’t release too early if you get to your left side properly.

 

Jack Nicklaus knew everything I just said intuitively.  So did David Duval.

 

Telling someone to hold lag when their backswing is too long, sway their pelvis and sequence their arms late has a prefect 1 to 1 an apology.  
 

“You’re coughing, hold your breath and you won’t cough.”

That’s why the tried and true swing cliches are not just unhelpful, they are harmful.

 

[GolfTurkey]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This is what bothers me about golf instruction as a whole and guys like GG specifically. I suppose it's to be expected that you'll have growing pains when things become much more data driven and that data conflicts with "feels", but it's the stubbornness of these types of coaches and their commitments to their own philosophies that just reeks of 5th grader "nuh uh, *I* know the best way!". It's exhausting and just confuses people, especially if as mentioned we'd find that ultimately the same points are being argued just from different angles.  

 

Annoys me too. If objective measurement shows you're wrong about something, take the "L" and move along.

 

Doubling down is just digging a bigger hole and leads to this kind of weird cult of personality polarised world of instruction we have historically seen.

[GolfTurkey]

Someone referenced the arm swing illusion and I think so much trouble is caused by the arms moving forward and back relative to the target creating the illusion that they move forward and back relative to the body, when it's the body moving the arms relative to the target and they're staying in almost the same place relative to the body.

 

Here's an experiment that shows that the trail arm should work like a bicep curl and be more in less at the address position at impact, relative the body, instead of independently swinging across the body towards the target:

 

Set up in front a full length mirror, then simulate a good impact position while freezing your body in the same place i.e. only your arms can move. You will see your trail elbow move across your body towards the target, roughly to in line with your sternum. Now everyone knows that in  good swings, there is some degree of openness with the hips and also usually with the shoulders so go ahead and add that. You will see that your hands have moved to some kind of ridiculous position about two feet in front of impact, and nobody does that.

 

An alternative is to set up at address, and simulate a good impact position. Basically all you have to do is to rotate your hips and shoulders some while bending your trail wrist back. The pivot transports the arms forward towards the target, no need to move them.

[Jim Waldron]

54 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Someone referenced the arm swing illusion and I think so much trouble is caused by the arms moving forward and back relative to the target creating the illusion that they move forward and back relative to the body, when it's the body moving the arms relative to the target and they're staying in almost the same place relative to the body.

 

Here's an experiment that shows that the trail arm should work like a bicep curl and be more in less at the address position at impact, relative the body, instead of independently swinging across the body towards the target:

 

Set up in front a full length mirror, then simulate a good impact position while freezing your body in the same place i.e. only your arms can move. You will see your trail elbow move across your body towards the target, roughly to in line with your sternum. Now everyone knows that in  good swings, there is some degree of openness with the hips and also usually with the shoulders so go ahead and add that. You will see that your hands have moved to some kind of ridiculous position about two feet in front of impact, and nobody does that.

 

An alternative is to set up at address, and simulate a good impact position. Basically all you have to do is to rotate your hips and shoulders some while bending your trail wrist back. The pivot transports the arms forward towards the target, no need to move them.

 

Yes - exactly right. What you just described is one of several arm swing illusion "convincer" drills in my program. Isolating what the pivot does vs what the Levers do, and then blending them together helps to clear up a ton of swing mis-conceptions.  I came up with these drills around 1994-1997, and have taught them to several thousand students - they have a proven track record. In reality the hands are not in exactly the same position relative to the body as at Setup - but a few inches to the right of torso mid-line by P6 which is the end of the downward motion of the hands. The upper arms achieve "re-connection" - my term for how the arms lower in transition - to the torso around P5, and then from P6 to just after impact "SuperConnection" meaning ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets.

 

The hands move forwards toward the target with the body rotating and tilting. Amazingly, the left side end of shoulder girdle actually "backs up" away from the target for a fraction of a second during Release, which causes the lower end of the arms and club itself to move rapidly toward the target. Part of what I call the Lever Illusion. Meaning when a lever rotates, the end of the lever that is the axis of rotation only needs to rotate a tiny bit for the other end of the lever to move much more in 3D space.

[Soloman1]

.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Soloman1

[Ex Blade User]

7 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

 

Yes - exactly right. What you just described is one of several arm swing illusion "convincer" drills in my program. Isolating what the pivot does vs what the Levers do, and then blending them together helps to clear up a ton of swing mis-conceptions.  I came up with these drills around 1994-1997, and have taught them to several thousand students - they have a proven track record. In reality the hands are not in exactly the same position relative to the body as at Setup - but a few inches to the right of torso mid-line by P6 which is the end of the downward motion of the hands. The upper arms achieve "re-connection" - my term for how the arms lower in transition - to the torso around P5, and then from P6 to just after impact "SuperConnection" meaning ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets.

 

The hands move forwards toward the target with the body rotating and tilting. Amazingly, the left side end of shoulder girdle actually "backs up" away from the target for a fraction of a second during Release, which causes the lower end of the arms and club itself to move rapidly toward the target. Part of what I call the Lever Illusion. Meaning when a lever rotates, the end of the lever that is the axis of rotation only needs to rotate a tiny bit for the other end of the lever to move much more in 3D space.

Nice to see you posting again Jim!

[me05501]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This is what bothers me about golf instruction as a whole and guys like GG specifically. I suppose it's to be expected that you'll have growing pains when things become much more data driven and that data conflicts with "feels", but it's the stubbornness of these types of coaches and their commitments to their own philosophies that just reeks of 5th grader "nuh uh, *I* know the best way!". It's exhausting and just confuses people, especially if as mentioned we'd find that ultimately the same points are being argued just from different angles.  

 

 

I think we video watchers can sometimes forget that we're watching edited content that's not always representative of the complete picture (especially true in hands-on lesson videos). Teachers have different communication styles, and a lot of what they tell an individual student might be left on the cutting room floor. 

 

In Monte's content he'll often say something like "You won't actually be able to do this, everything is moving too fast. But try to feel like that's what's happening because it'll help." For a middle aged student like me whose been playing a long time using imperfect patterns, it's important for me to understand that so I don't feel like a failure when I can't execute the move as well as I want. 

 

I rarely hear disclaimers like that in GG's content, but that's not a negative. It may just be his dudebro communication style or the fact that he's often teaching really talented juniors who don't suffer from feel vs. real hangups yet. Maybe he wants his players to go for a feel they really can't hit because it's the fastest way for them to absorb the lesson. It's not wrong, it's just different. 

 

Most of us want to get better but we don't want it bad enough to completely start over from scratch. That puts us all on the hunt to find an instructor or school of thought that can help us improve from where we are today while we keep playing. The guy who is perfect for me might be perfectly wrong for you. 

[Kuuuch]

Milo’s response to the AMG video. He also commented on montes IG post about the AMG video  

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnwufDIoUDN/?igshid=YWJhMjlhZTc=

[airjammer]

8 minutes ago, Kuuuch said:

Milo’s response to the AMG video. He also commented on montes IG post about the AMG video  

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnwufDIoUDN/?igshid=YWJhMjlhZTc=

i just saw that as well…that is exactly the argument the “other” side has. Kinda like what Gankas has said in the past…”my model isn’t what most of the pros are doing right now…it is what the majority of the tour will be doing in the future”. 
 

Seems like amg’s model is Nelly Korda and Milo, GG and essentially the counter side is the essentially Mito Pereira or Niemann. 
 

The argument is essentially,  retain more trail elbow bend early in the downswing by lowering the chest more or lose more flex in the trail elbow in the downswing but don’t have to do as much lowering to get the sweet spot to the ball. 

[MonteScheinblum]

24 minutes ago, airjammer said:

i just saw that as well…that is exactly the argument the “other” side has. Kinda like what Gankas has said in the past…”my model isn’t what most of the pros are doing right now…it is what the majority of the tour will be doing in the future”. 
 

Seems like amg’s model is Nelly Korda and Milo, GG and essentially the counter side is the essentially Mito Pereira or Niemann. 
 

The argument is essentially,  retain more trail elbow bend early in the downswing by lowering the chest more or lose more flex in the trail elbow in the downswing but don’t have to do as much lowering to get the sweet spot to the ball. 

To me there are 3 categories of swing ideas.

 

1.  Viable and functional, but physically more difficult.

2.  Awful dog doo doo

3.  Viable and easier to do physically.

 

MP and JN are category 1.

 

Milo is confusing lack of understanding for an opinion one pattern is easier for most golfers.

 

Gary Woodland’s wrist pattern is obviously viable and functional.  Most golfers couldn’t break 100 doing what he does.  

Edited January 23, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[PracticeSwinger]

12 minutes ago, airjammer said:

i just saw that as well…that is exactly the argument the “other” side has. Kinda like what Gankas has said in the past…”my model isn’t what most of the pros are doing right now…it is what the majority of the tour will be doing in the future”. 
 

Seems like amg’s model is Nelly Korda and Milo, GG and essentially the counter side is the essentially Mito Pereira or Niemann. 
 

The argument is essentially,  retain more trail elbow bend early in the downswing by lowering the chest more or lose more flex in the trail elbow in the downswing but don’t have to do as much lowering to get the sweet spot to the ball. 

Very interesting... trying to be as objective as I can - if the GG/Milo/Niemann side of the argument is - this is how pros will shallow/swing in the future and they are pioneers to monetarize this way; awesome... on the other hand, the AMG/Monte/Shauheen/Korda side is saying - this is what is happening in elite swings now and we got data to prove it, then the only argument against that is - 'you have normalized all those swings and some surely don't exhibit what you are saying'...

 

Now, are Milo / GG really just going on 'feels' and looking at 2D videos to prove what is going on?... if so, that's pretty weak, they have to have other arguments right?... rather than just stating - 'look at those wrinkles on their shirt in transition'... (by the way, looking at Niemann's swing face on, probably the best argument for the side bend side, I'm not sure there is that much trail shoulder external rotation happening - elbow relative to his chest in the downswing - but I'm just going on still images here haha)

[Sean124]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

To me there are 3 categories of swing ideas.

 

1.  Viable and functional, but physically more difficult.

2.  Awful dog doo doo

3.  Viable and easier to do physically.

 

MP and JN are category 1.

 

Milo is confusing lack of understanding for an opinion one pattern is easier for most golfers.

 

Gary Woodland’s wrist pattern is obviously viable and functional.  Most golfers couldn’t break 100 doing what he does.  

And for the guy who sits at a desk 5 days a week, would he have a better chance of playing good golf by emulating JN or Max Homa? Just watching JN makes my back hurt. 

[GoGoErky]

15 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Very interesting... trying to be as objective as I can - if the GG/Milo/Niemann side of the argument is - this is how pros will shallow/swing in the future and they are pioneers to monetarize this way; awesome... on the other hand, the AMG/Monte/Shauheen/Korda side is saying - this is what is happening in elite swings now and we got data to prove it, then the only argument against that is - 'you have normalized all those swings and some surely don't exhibit what you are saying'...

 

Now, are Milo / GG really just going on 'feels' and looking at 2D videos to prove what is going on?... if so, that's pretty weak, they have to have other arguments right?... rather than just stating - 'look at those wrinkles on their shirt in transition'... (by the way, looking at Niemann's swing face on, probably the best argument for the side bend side, I'm not sure there is that much trail shoulder external rotation happening - elbow relative to his chest in the downswing - but I'm just going on still images here haha)

Milo posted that same video in his online group with 3 gears  videos all from dtl perspective of Sergio, dj and Rory, he says on them the lead arm adducts. 
 

 

[me05501]

2 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Milo posted that same video in his online group with 3 gears  videos all from dtl perspective of Sergio, dj and Rory, he says on them the lead arm adducts. 

 

 

So we want to try to emulate specific outliers? Might work for some. Would probably be a disaster for me. 

[airjammer]

20 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Very interesting... trying to be as objective as I can - if the GG/Milo/Niemann side of the argument is - this is how pros will shallow/swing in the future and they are pioneers to monetarize this way; awesome... on the other hand, the AMG/Monte/Shauheen/Korda side is saying - this is what is happening in elite swings now and we got data to prove it, then the only argument against that is - 'you have normalized all those swings and some surely don't exhibit what you are saying'...

 

Now, are Milo / GG really just going on 'feels' and looking at 2D videos to prove what is going on?... if so, that's pretty weak, they have to have other arguments right?... rather than just stating - 'look at those wrinkles on their shirt in transition'... (by the way, looking at Niemann's swing face on, probably the best argument for the side bend side, I'm not sure there is that much trail shoulder external rotation happening - elbow relative to his chest in the downswing - but I'm just going on still images here haha)

In the end it’s all just positioning yourself with what sells and what you particularly believe is true. I have yet to see AMG video or Milo/GG of Pereira with Gears data of their swing not just bs averages. 
 

I know Milo has been on gears and I don’t believe he is not telling the truth when he says what he does. 

We know what Pereira and Niemann does is not what Nelly Korda does even in 2D. Both can be functional obviously. 
 

What Amg does is cherry pick data or give you average data to support their case.  It my personal opinion that they don’t believe the average golfer can get into Mito or Milo positions without injury themselves or have the flexibility to do so…I agree wholeheartedly with  that. I just wish they would just say…”Most of you are old, out of shape, inflexible, and not as athletic as the guys like Milo or Niemann. Here is a functional pattern for people with average x factor stretch, tight hamstrings, and limited external shoulder rotation.” 
 

They are kinda saying that but also saying you have almost 0 chance of swing any other way. 

 

[me05501]

13 minutes ago, airjammer said:

In the end it’s all just positioning yourself with what sells and what you particularly believe is true. I have yet to see AMG video or Milo/GG of Pereira with Gears data of their swing not just bs averages. 
 

I know Milo has been on gears and I don’t believe he is not telling the truth when he says what he does. 

We know what Pereira and Niemann does is not what Nelly Korda does even in 2D. Both can be functional obviously. 
 

What Amg does is cherry pick data or give you average data to support their case.  It my personal opinion that they don’t believe the average golfer can get into Mito or Milo positions without injury themselves or have the flexibility to do so…I agree wholeheartedly with  that. I just wish they would just say…”Most of you are old, out of shape, inflexible, and not as athletic as the guys like Milo or Niemann. Here is a functional pattern for people with average x factor stretch, tight hamstrings, and limited external shoulder rotation.” 
 

They are kinda saying that but also saying you have almost 0 chance of swing any other way. 

 

 

 

That's only one way to look at it. 

 

Alternately, maybe they (like a lot of other coaches) have noticed that players who intentionally try to do a side crunch on the way down tend to overdo that move over time to the detriment of other correct movements.

 

It's not like the drills being taught by AMG and others don't naturally lead to side bend happening. It's whether or not creating side bend is something players can intentionally do at the right time, in the correct proportion, without causing other issues such as failing to get off their back foot. There will be some who can and others who cannot. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by me05501

[MonteScheinblum]

Here is the opinion of someone who was the longest in the world at one time and was a few bad swings away from a legit shot at a tour card.

 

The same someone who went down the cliche and outlier rabbit holes and turned himself into a short hitting 5 handicap. 

 

The common way is not the only way but it’s the easiest way.  
 

Can you live to be 100 smoking 2 packs a day and do health and fitness junkies die at 38?  Yes, but the data says don’t smoke, eat right and be fit. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Kuuuch said:

Milo’s response to the AMG video. He also commented on montes IG post about the AMG video  

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CnwufDIoUDN/?igshid=YWJhMjlhZTc=

I saw this as well, unfortunately his explanation just doesn't pass the sniff test. In his examples of the arms not lowering, the arms are clearly lowering, even when he is using 2Ds to 

 

Perhaps the disconnect for this camp of folks is how the arms lowering is explained by those who advocate it. In those explanations, we see the instructor bring their arms all the way down/right arm losing flex with the back still to the target. This is done as a clear exaggeration to explain the proper motion and can even be a good explanation/feel for those who don't do it properly. In a real the arms don't lower that much that fast, nor does it look remotely like that on video once blended with the pivot. But for any golfer that doesn't do it, learning the exaggerated isolated movement is easier than learning a compound one. Monte's broom force and NTC are prime examples of this method

 

There is no doubt the super rotated, right side bend, more bent trail arm pattern requires less lowering of the arms, but the arms still come down no matter what, nearly impossible to hit the ball without them lowering.  But for whatever reason they market and explain it as the arms not lowering/pivot does all the work. Magnitude in this case is very important. Something happening less and something not happening at all are two very different things

 

I guess the real question is which is better? Does being super open, with tons of side bend, and a more bent trail arm lead to more power/accuracy/consistency? We already know there is zero correlation between rate of closure and consistency.