New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[Hilts1969]

12 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

They aren’t steep bc they aren’t shallowing though. You don’t fix the root cause by trying to shallow. Most people

who are steep pull the club down from

the top and do not shift and turn correctly. Or they roll it inside and have to turn the shoulders OTT to get back to the ball. Shallowing isn’t fixing that. That’s why I hate shallowing videos. 
 

AMG video is awesome, just wish they took it a step further to explain HOW pros shallow and not just want happens with the arms when they do. 

They aren't steep because they aren't shallowing ? Haha 

 

Some don't pull they move their right shoulder out some do pull. You are holding the club you have to do something with the arms.

 

They literally do show how the pros shallow. I am starting to think you are on a wind up.

 

Anyhow how did the car salesman react when you went into his showroom, heard his detailed description on the cars and you told him you were after a boat?

 

I presume you were puzzled that the car salesman wasn't discussing  yachting with you 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Hilts1969

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I don’t disagree with that and can understand why you’d need to change the motor pattern. But the fix should include fixing the root cause of that pattern. Not just shallowing. 

For plenty of amateurs, the root cause is the arms not working correctly or in the right sequence. Plenty can have a nice take away, great position at the top, then pull the handle down or fire the hips right away or open the shoulders immediately. There are also those who get into compromised backswing positions as a compensation for their steep arms, plenty of threads on here on "how to flatten my backswing"

 

Learning how the arms should work and actively working moving them correctly is absolutely fixing the root cause in many cases. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Krt22

[Zitlow]

@FormerBigDaddy He's instinctively throwing the weight of the clubhead and his pivot is supporting the throw. 

[LeftDaddy]

6 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Iteach told me he thought GG swing is just a model of compensations 

I think this whole thread is basically the “body drives the shallowing” guys vs the “arms drive the shallowing” guys. Again, the irony is that each group is describing roughly the same motions, but differ in how they describe them or in which comes first (chicken or the egg). I realize that 95% of you are “AMG” guys and that’s fine…I’ve tried to express my thoughts avoiding too much right vs wrong, and staying more in the lane of there being more similarities than differences. 
 

That said, I disagree with your “compensations” statement almost 100%. I think people would have to take in all of what GG teaches to understand how it all works together, but whatever…GG isn’t for most of you and that is fine. AMG isn’t for me and that is fine too. Though I do hope this arm straightening thought might help my short game somewhat. But if throwing your arms and angles immediately from the top is the feel that helps you sequence it all together, more power to you. The exact opposite feel is what helped me (I guess because I used to be an arms-only guy).

[LeftDaddy]

3 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Here’s a video of my son who’s 10. Perfect example of his lower body sequencing shallowing the club. I haven’t told him anything other than shift and turn back and shift and turn through. At some point he’s going to have to FEEL exactly what I mentioned above, slowing down is body and feeling his arms swing to start down to catch up with his body. 
 

The kid doesn’t think about shallowing at all and has no idea what that even means. Much like any good player who learned to play early. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/vTft4hqD9O8?feature=share

 

Kid is gonna hit it a mile one day... my days of outdriving him are numbered bc my body doesn't do that!  

Kid has a great golf swing!

[503Mike]

3 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Here’s a video of my son who’s 10. Perfect example of his lower body sequencing shallowing the club. I haven’t told him anything other than shift and turn back and shift and turn through. At some point he’s going to have to FEEL exactly what I mentioned above, slowing down is body and feeling his arms swing to start down to catch up with his body. 
 

The kid doesn’t think about shallowing at all and has no idea what that even means. Much like any good player who learned to play early. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/vTft4hqD9O8?feature=share

 

Kid is gonna hit it a mile one day... my days of outdriving him are numbered bc my body doesn't do that!  

Love it. I have a picture of myself swinging my dad's persimmon driver when I was about 11 and I don't think I have or will ever again reach the impact position I did then without any coaching or guidance other than "do you want to take a swing?".

 

I also kick myself every time I swing a club that I did not take advantage of my dad's countless offers to get me into the game when I was a kid. Just the occasional round every year or two was all I was interested in. He grew up in an apartment over the pro shop/diner of the golf course his parents owned, started caddying and mowing greens when he was 5/6 years old, so it is in his blood. Sadly, I didn't catch the bug until much later in life.

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, LeftDaddy said:

I think this whole thread is basically the “body drives the shallowing” guys vs the “arms drive the shallowing” guys. Again, the irony is that each group is describing roughly the same motions, but differ in how they describe them or in which comes first (chicken or the egg).

The difference is one side has objective data to show what actually happens, while the other does not.

 

If GG was truly doing something different than what the AMG guys advocate based on the data, why hasn't he just got on GEARS and proved it?  

 

The other weird part of the whole notion that the "Body drives the shallowing" is that all of GGs training aides focus A LOT on the arms and wrists, even though in his videos he really doesn't like to explicitly say that. The gsnap is 100% wrist work and the G-box is very much an arms centric device. You basically can't get your lead elbow in front of the box (or actually hit the ball) if all you did was leave your arms up and rotate, even if you could side bend like Gumby you would still need the arms to lower. For whatever reason he doesn't like to talk about active arms, instead his pattern/teaching style/training aides revolve around getting the arms to work correctly in a more subconscious manner. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

16 minutes ago, LeftDaddy said:

Kid has a great golf swing!

Yeah I’m quite jealous. 
 

As for my other replies… I’m gonna watch the video again bc I must of missed something or not finished it. 
 

With that said, we all have our match ups, so I have to respect the fact that there’s different ways to say and do the same thing!

[kobe123]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

The difference is one side has objective data to show what actually happens, while the other does not.

 

If GG was truly doing something different than what the AMG guys advocate based on the data, why hasn't he just got on GEARS and proved it?  

 

The other weird part of the whole notion that the "Body drives the shallowing" is that all of GGs training aides focus A LOT on the arms and wrists, even though in his videos he really doesn't like to explicitly say that. The gsnap is 100% wrist work and the G-box is very much an arms centric device. You basically can't get your lead elbow in front of the box (or actually hit the ball) if all you did was leave your arms up and rotate, even if you could side bend like Gumby you would still need the arms to lower. For whatever reason he doesn't like to talk about active arms, instead his pattern/teaching style/training aides revolve around getting the arms to work correctly in a more subconscious manner. 

 

Exactly. Put a GG guy on gears, I'd guarantee that they do exactly what AMG says, shallowing it with the arms. The chest/body rotation is a steepener. 

 

Not sure how anyone can argue against AMG, when they have data to back it up. 

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

 

Not sure how anyone can argue against AMG, when they have data to back it up. 

Humans are strange creatures once ego, personal anecdotes, etc come into play, even more so in a space that has been ruled by thoughts and opinions for decades. There are still tons of people who argue against strokes gained data.  

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Humans are strange creatures once ego, personal anecdotes, etc come into play, even more so in a space that has been ruled by thoughts and opinions for decades. There are still tons of people who argue against strokes gained data.  

Flat earth and moon landing deniers 

 

https://www.cntraveller.in/story/buzz-aldrin-punched-moon-landing-denier/

[Ex Blade User]

3 hours ago, LeftDaddy said:

I think this whole thread is basically the “body drives the shallowing” guys vs the “arms drive the shallowing” guys. Again, the irony is that each group is describing roughly the same motions, but differ in how they describe them or in which comes first (chicken or the egg). I realize that 95% of you are “AMG” guys and that’s fine…I’ve tried to express my thoughts avoiding too much right vs wrong, and staying more in the lane of there being more similarities than differences. 
 

That said, I disagree with your “compensations” statement almost 100%. I think people would have to take in all of what GG teaches to understand how it all works together, but whatever…GG isn’t for most of you and that is fine. AMG isn’t for me and that is fine too. Though I do hope this arm straightening thought might help my short game somewhat. But if throwing your arms and angles immediately from the top is the feel that helps you sequence it all together, more power to you. The exact opposite feel is what helped me (I guess because I used to be an arms-only guy).

No one saying to “throw your angles immediately from the top”. The video is just showing what happens in a swing. They’re not telling you HOW to do it. Maybe you need to feel body turn and hands drop or “stay up” or whatever and some might need to actively feel the arm straightening. All they are showing is that it does. It has to or you will miss the ball. 

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Flat earth and moon landing deniers 

 

https://www.cntraveller.in/story/buzz-aldrin-punched-moon-landing-denier/

Never gets old. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

20 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Flat earth and moon landing deniers 

 

https://www.cntraveller.in/story/buzz-aldrin-punched-moon-landing-denier/

 

If someone tried to press charges and I'm on that jury, I'm voting Not Guilty. 

 

"Your honor, some people just need punchin'. I don't care if it's assault. I'm with Buzz."

[FormerBigDaddy]

23 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

No one saying to “throw your angles immediately from the top”. The video is just showing what happens in a swing. They’re not telling you HOW to do it. Maybe you need to feel body turn and hands drop or “stay up” or whatever and some might need to actively feel the arm straightening. All they are showing is that it does. It has to or you will miss the ball. 

Yeah someone said I didn’t watch the video when I said the same thing. They didn’t explain what drives the shallowing of the arms in their vide. Just simply stated what they do… but what they do isn’t necessarily conscience action. I watched it again and still believe that lower body sequencing is what drives what the arms do in the AMG video. 
 

I think both sides are right here we’re just saying different things. You cannot deny what they proved the arms do… but why do they do it is the question I’m after. 

[Ex Blade User]

2 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah someone said I didn’t watch the video when I said the same thing. They didn’t explain what drives the shallowing of the arms in their vide. Just simply stated what they do… but what they do isn’t necessarily conscience action. I watched it again and still believe that lower body sequencing is what drives what the arms do in the AMG video. 
 

I think both sides are right here we’re just saying different things. You cannot deny what they proved the arms do… but why do they do it is the question I’m after. 

It’s different for everybody. That’s what “feel” is and why is so dang hard!

[MonteScheinblum]

23 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If someone tried to press charges and I'm on that jury, I'm voting Not Guilty. 

 

"Your honor, some people just need punchin'. I don't care if it's assault. I'm with Buzz."

You and me both.  I’d vote for punitive damages be awarded to Buzz

[MonteScheinblum]

40 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

No one saying to “throw your angles immediately from the top”. The video is just showing what happens in a swing. They’re not telling you HOW to do it. Maybe you need to feel body turn and hands drop or “stay up” or whatever and some might need to actively feel the arm straightening. All they are showing is that it does. It has to or you will miss the ball. 

This is where the whole “hold lag” debate gets misinterpreted.

 

You can’t physically hold lag and actually hit the ball.  When you dump the angles early it’s not because you didn’t hold them, it’s because you’re doing something else poorly.  Usually poor shift and/or poor sequencing.  As Nicklaus said in his book, you can’t release too early if you get to your left side correctly.

 

Casters and flippers aren’t doing that because they aren’t holding lag and/or holding off the release, they are casting and flipping because they are doing something else wrong.

 

From an intent perspective, you should be trying to shift, sequence and pivot properly, while dumping all the angles asap.

 

If you are shifting, pivoting and sequencing properly, if you ain’t dumping the RD, lead wrist flexion and right elbow bend, it’s ugly.

 

There’s a reason 99% of elite golfers are UD, extending and lose trail elbow flex rapidly…..

 

The 1% have unique movements to compensate.

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah someone said I didn’t watch the video when I said the same thing. They didn’t explain what drives the shallowing of the arms in their vide. Just simply stated what they do… but what they do isn’t necessarily conscience action. I watched it again and still believe that lower body sequencing is what drives what the arms do in the AMG video. 
 

I think both sides are right here we’re just saying different things. You cannot deny what they proved the arms do… but why do they do it is the question I’m after. 

 

There was an AMG vid where they were comparing pros vs ams and one of the key things that they looked at was early hand speed. I.e. acceleration from the top to P5 or just after. The pros accelerated significantly faster and achieved higher max hand speeds. And coincidentally, hit it farther. One aspect that may or may not be relevant is that the pros mostly had their hands in front of their trail thigh at P6 whereas the ams had it lagging behind the trail thigh. 

 

One day at the range I decided to experiment with that. My hands definitely lag the trail thigh at P6, and I thought accelerating the hands from the top might help. I went onto the range session with the main mental thought of "faster hands". 

 

I did it, and I was hitting the ball CRISP, straight, and with great ballflight. Not only that, I was seeing about a club and a half more distance. Great, right?!

 

Nope. I happened to have my tripod so I video'd the swings with fast hands both DTL and FO. DTL I could see that I was handle-pulling and getting SEVERELY steep. Which if I'd continued on that path, probably would have caused a bunch of future problems. FO it showed that I didn't have any improvement in P6 hand position. I still lagged.

 

So I realized that although early hand speed, as shown by AMG, is important? I clearly was not implementing it correctly. 

As for the distance gains? I think it was just swing effort. I was trying to swing harder, so I was hitting it farther. 

[Golfbeat]

34 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah someone said I didn’t watch the video when I said the same thing. They didn’t explain what drives the shallowing of the arms in their vide. Just simply stated what they do… but what they do isn’t necessarily conscience action. I watched it again and still believe that lower body sequencing is what drives what the arms do in the AMG video. 
 

I think both sides are right here we’re just saying different things. You cannot deny what they proved the arms do… but why do they do it is the question I’m after. 

 

I think that it is definitely a conscious action in case you were not doing it. Dumping the club to "8 o'clock" whilst keeping your body closed is a very conscious move if you were coming over the top before.

[Krt22]

17 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Yeah someone said I didn’t watch the video when I said the same thing. They didn’t explain what drives the shallowing of the arms in their vide. Just simply stated what they do… but what they do isn’t necessarily conscience action. I watched it again and still believe that lower body sequencing is what drives what the arms do in the AMG video. 
 

I think both sides are right here we’re just saying different things. You cannot deny what they proved the arms do… but why do they do it is the question I’m after. 

I think you are conflating what you feel you do and what really happens. In reality, the arms and legs can move completely independent of each other, which is why the whole "the swing is driven by the ___" idea is largely a flawed one. Every good swing involves both the body and the arms working together properly, which element each golfer needs to focus on more is highly subjective.  Golfer A may feel like his swing is all arms and Golfer B may feel like his swing is all body, on a 3D capture device they may look very much the same. That is also where gears can be very useful/powerful, is that you can isolate individual movements so you don't allow yourself to get distracted by everything else that is happening in complicated motion,

 

Long story short,  there will no be definite answer to the "why" question you ask. Objectively speaking a movement is what it is, how its learned doesn't change what the actual movement is, but understanding what the actual correct movement is important IMHO. Far too many people take the stance that if they, or their kid, or some pro learned something subconsciously, that it can be learned in the same fashion by anyone else, which is completely flawed. This is where you start hearing people throw in the terms "natural"...or vice versa if a golfer has poor movement and they are trying to learn a new one, they resist since it feels "unnatural" or "weird". Those are subjective terms, where as the 3D data is the polar opposite.

 

 

[DLiver]

Is this something a regular golfer is supposed to understand or is it just a discussion for instructors? I really need to learn how to shallow the club but I can't follow any of this.

[ThePaineTrain]

56 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is where the whole “hold lag” debate gets misinterpreted.

 

You can’t physically hold lag and actually hit the ball.  When you dump the angles early it’s not because you didn’t hold them, it’s because you’re doing something else poorly.  Usually poor shift and/or poor sequencing.  As Nicklaus said in his book, you can’t release too early if you get to your left side correctly.

 

Casters and flippers aren’t doing that because they aren’t holding lag and/or holding off the release, they are casting and flipping because they are doing something else wrong.

 

From an intent perspective, you should be trying to shift, sequence and pivot properly, while dumping all the angles asap.

 

If you are shifting, pivoting and sequencing properly, if you ain’t dumping the RD, lead wrist flexion and right elbow bend, it’s ugly.

 

There’s a reason 99% of elite golfers are UD, extending and lose trail elbow flex rapidly…..

 

The 1% have unique movements to compensate.

 

Was gonna ask what UD/RD was but figured it out on my own (Ulnar/Radial deviation). Wish I was this into golf in college, would have been able to take anatomy for an easy A

[scooterhd2]

8 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

However, on the actual shallowing part... I wish there was a better explanation on HOW pro's achieve the shallowing move they describe. What I mean is, their shallowing move has to be a biproduct of SOMETHING.  My 10 year old son has a great natural swing.  He has a great shift and awesome hip rotation to start the downswing.  His club gets really shallow and he rotates hard.  It's really a thing of beauty... AND I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT HE HAS NO THOUGHTS OF LOWERING HIS TRAIL ARM AND STRAIGHTENING IT.  It happens... naturally... unconsciously... as a result of????  

 

Gravity.

 

Start golf young and you are much more likely to develop this naturally with no thought of the arms. The club is long and heavy for your frame. Gravity pulls the head down. Its much harder to steepen, so you dont fight it. Shallow it out and use the big muscles to swing it. 

 

The later you learn, the stronger and taller you are in reference to the club. You can make a backswing with a heave. You have no problem to cast it hard and steepen the club. You can apply speed as early as you want and go at the ball. Using lower body forces is unnatural because you dont need to use those forces to throw the club out. Take away the 310 gram driver and hand that player a 2000 gram broom and all of a sudden their swing is shallow and inside out like a kid. 

 

So how you do teach the latter player how to shallow? Either somehow force them to use ground forces properly, which is difficult to verify on camera and may be harder to develop a feel for. Or focus on what the golfers brain is wired to control on an every second basis, the hands and arms. 

[MonteScheinblum]

53 minutes ago, DLiver said:

Is this something a regular golfer is supposed to understand or is it just a discussion for instructors? I really need to learn how to shallow the club but I can't follow any of this.

If you don’t do it already, it’s basic element of a good swing and a very small percentage donut right and generally are the low handicap and elite golfers.

 

so to make a simple analogy, do people need to  know what walking with good posture is?

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, DLiver said:

Is this something a regular golfer is supposed to understand or is it just a discussion for instructors? I really need to learn how to shallow the club but I can't follow any of this.

Because the clubhead has the farthest distance to travel in the swing I think they're using the right arm unfolding behind them to speed up the clubhead so it will catch up with the left arm at impact.

 

The right arm unfolding is similar to a differential in a car which speeds up the outer wheels in a turn because they have a farther distance to travel than the inner wheels. 

 

I'm from the school of whatever works keep doing it until it stops working and then jump on the next new thing bus. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Zitlow

[PracticeSwinger]

The video is pure gold because it shows without a doubt or any interpretation what are the moves in transition in the vast majority of elite swings and… that’s it… it’s simply a blueprint to help us understand what the actual correct movements are - which for some is very important and less for others depending on your learning style… it’s helpful for you and your coach to try and figure out ways and internal feels for you to make and ingrain those moves - that in itself and by definition will be personal, that’s the tough part we all have to figure out and replicate over and over… there’s nothing more in that video, no insinuation on how to achieve those moves, and it seems people draw on their own experience to try and make it seems like there’s an agenda in there

[green5]

8 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Who cares what it feels like if it works. It should feel different or “weird” because you’ve been wrong forever?

 

True! But I'm wondering if I'm leaving some distance on the table with that feel. I guess I need to go see the Kwon thread and start the merry-go-round of golf swing patterns all over again. 

[DLiver]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

If you don’t do it already, it’s basic element of a good swing and a very small percentage donut right and generally are the low handicap and elite golfers.

 

so to make a simple analogy, do people need to  know what walking with good posture is?

I get walking with good posture. I get the unfolding of the bicep. External rotation, internal rotation, ulnar deviation--that stuff I'm lost.

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, DLiver said:

I get walking with good posture. I get the unfolding of the bicep. External rotation, internal rotation, ulnar deviation--that stuff I'm lost.

It’s just short hand terminology that allows you say in two words what would take 10-15.

 

As far as understanding the movements.  If you don’t do it and want to hit it better, you better learn what they’re about.