New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[Nickc]

Dropping arms nothing new as many pointed out.

 

Look at about 4.50 mark

[johnrobison]

10 hours ago, airjammer said:

I’m afraid it’s about to get even more complicated..enter jacobs 3d. 
 

I saw this video a while back and while Amg really breaks things down into a TLDR version it doesn’t begin to scratch the surface on what really the discussion should be imo. 
 

The TLDW version of the above video is that Padraig did exactly what AMG is advocating and was much slower than his current self after basically adding in some chest linear movement in transition. 
 

Like i said in a private conversation with another member…there is still several unknown missing pieces to lowering the arms feel as it seems its been around forever but isn’t the magic bullet for almost everyone. If it was we wouldn’t be still talking about it…it would be a fundamental. 

AMG isn't saying that. In fact they reference early linear momentum of the rib cage (sometimes referred to as drifting) frequently, including in one of their videos posted in this discussion. AMG is saying that the hands don't "stay up" and that good players don't rotate with their lead arm pinned to the chest. They also aren't saying that lowering the arms is a magic bullet - they've said there are other things that have to happen, but in that video they're simply isolating the movement of the hands. I bet they would agree with this Jacobs video 100%. 

[johnrobison]

dupe

Edited January 24, 2023 by johnrobison

[kobe123]

While this may have been taught before there was no data/proof behind if it was wrong or right. Now we have proof of what actually shallows it.

[gators78]

18 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s is the issue I said above.  You have to abandon 1 dimensional thinking.

 

Its the whole premise behind the no turn cast.

 

There are opposing forces, zeroing out a position with one movement is a way to suck like a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

 

 

Shift, turn, accelerate arms on time and cast, gives you way more lag than shoving it it there with a giant float load and hold.

 

I swear the most crooked, curving shots I ever have are when I think of really holding some angle. I need to tattoo that on my forearm to remember that.

[FormerBigDaddy]

I'm with Milo on this one.  Makes more sense to me that a proper pivot and sequencing set up a shallowing move better than trying to groove some odd feeling of redirecting the arms at the top in milliseconds.  With that said, i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  Nobody will ever win this debate.... 

[FormerBigDaddy]

18 hours ago, Mono said:

i think what seems to get left out or the GG/ Milo camp dont seem to be currently articulating very well is that while 'turning' is clearly a steepener, 'tilting' should be a shallower, if you are 25 degree left tilted at the top of the back swing - just tilting back to neutral would flatten the shaft - at some point everyone except real hackers tilts right in the downswing , first back to neutral - then a little more 

 THIS!!!!!  

 

Tilt gets lost in the conversation and isn't talked about enough.

[GoGoErky]

35 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I'm with Milo on this one.  Makes more sense to me that a proper pivot and sequencing set up a shallowing move better than trying to groove some odd feeling of redirecting the arms at the top in milliseconds.  With that said, i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  Nobody will ever win this debate.... 

you mean like amg teaches and does videos on regarding the pivot. shifting pressure to trail side, recentering and the pressure to lead side?

 

Samething Monte teaches as does Shauheen. Also it’s the samething that Milo teaches. 

[MonteScheinblum]

In a nearly all good downswings  there is:

rotation

flexion

right tilt

lateral motion of the thorax 

straightening of the right elbow

flexion and extension of lead wrist 

ulnar deviation

and more

 

On the AMG video, IMO, most golfers that don’t unload the right elbow correctly have two choices.  Be steep or right tilt early to shallow.

[jholz]

I've gotta say...this thread has been eye opening.

 

The trail elbow extension idea has added a new lever to my golf swing. I've found power and intention from a place I least expected to find it.

 

Thank you WRX.

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

AMG isn't saying that. In fact they reference early linear momentum of the rib cage (sometimes referred to as drifting) frequently, including in one of their videos posted in this discussion. AMG is saying that the hands don't "stay up" and that good players don't rotate with their lead arm pinned to the chest. They also aren't saying that lowering the arms is a magic bullet - they've said there are other things that have to happen, but in that video they're simply isolating the movement of the hands. I bet they would agree with this Jacobs video 100%. 

Amg isn’t talking about the same thing from what I’ve seen.

 

This is what Jacobs 3d is describing and miraculously “sarcasm”  all these videos started coming out. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CinSGuBjlZs/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Totally different than I’ve seen Amg ever say. 
 

I’m not advocating for the opposite of what Amg says but what they say and their blender drill is not what needs to happen either. So as @MonteScheinblum always say neither extremes are good. If you could actually hold your arms would be bad and if you actually manually pull/push your arms down as also bad. 
 

I’m on the side of kwon…if your backswing is forceful enough you will have to apply the opposite pressure away with your hands away from the target “extending the trail arm” to stop your backswing. 

[Ex Blade User]

1 hour ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I'm with Milo on this one.  Makes more sense to me that a proper pivot and sequencing set up a shallowing move better than trying to groove some odd feeling of redirecting the arms at the top in milliseconds.  With that said, i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  Nobody will ever win this debate.... 

how is lifting straight up and straight down redirection? It’s literally the most efficient arm movement possible. The bowed wrist, supination, super tilt is promoting redirection it seems to me 

[FormerBigDaddy]

11 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

how is lifting straight up and straight down redirection? It’s literally the most efficient arm movement possible. The bowed wrist, supination, super tilt is promoting redirection it seems to me 

I just don't think that consciously trying to drop the arms in 150 milliseconds when transitioning the club is realistic and the most efficient way for most people.  To me it makes a whole lot more sense that it happens as a biproduct of a good pivot along with sequencing and ground forces.  But to each their own...  like i said i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  My club is more shallow on the downswing than the backswing.  I say I don't do it with my arms, you might see my swing on video and say I do.  So to me it's pointless to argue it.

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I just don't think that consciously trying to drop the arms in 150 milliseconds when transitioning the club is realistic and the most efficient way for most people.  To me it makes a whole lot more sense that it happens as a biproduct of a good pivot along with sequencing and ground forces.  But to each their own...  like i said i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  My club is more shallow on the downswing than the backswing.  I say I don't do it with my arms, you might see my swing on video and say I do.  So to me it's pointless to argue it.

You appear to be misunderstanding what people are saying. I don’t recall anyone saying to do it consciously. But rather those who aren’t doing it now in their swing needs to train that so that it happens subconsciously. Monte, AMG and many others talk about that any thought that happens at the top of the swing actually occurs after impact because there’s no time to actually do something you think about at the top of the swing to actually do. They also talk about if you want something to happen in transition have to think about it earlier. Monte also gets into how the longer one keeps the shoulders close the more like they have to do this type of move.

 

Here’s one of Monte’s Instagram posts about delaying the shoulders and having time to do these things, using Rory which while it’s not 3d contradicts what milo Is saying 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=

[kobe123]

18 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I just don't think that consciously trying to drop the arms in 150 milliseconds when transitioning the club is realistic and the most efficient way for most people.  To me it makes a whole lot more sense that it happens as a biproduct of a good pivot along with sequencing and ground forces.  But to each their own...  like i said i think we all see what we want to see and feel what we want to feel.  My club is more shallow on the downswing than the backswing.  I say I don't do it with my arms, you might see my swing on video and say I do.  So to me it's pointless to argue it.

 

You said exactly what people have been preaching on here. You say your swing is more shallow on the downswing than the backswing. This is done with the trail arm extending, not the pivot. Whether you have to think about the arms or not, is just that, a thought. The data/fact is that it's not done with the pivot. The getting open/pivot piece is a steepener. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

23 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

You appear to be misunderstanding what people are saying. I don’t recall anyone saying to do it consciously. But rather those who aren’t doing it now in their swing needs to train that so that it happens subconsciously. Monte, AMG and many others talk about that any thought that happens at the top of the swing actually occurs after impact because there’s no time to actually do something you think about at the top of the swing to actually do. They also talk about if you want something to happen in transition have to think about it earlier. Monte also gets into how the longer one keeps the shoulders close the more like they have to do this type of move.

 

Here’s one of Monte’s Instagram posts about delaying the shoulders and having time to do these things, using Rory which while it’s not 3d contradicts what milo Is saying 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=

Again, people see what they want.  Monte says in the video he delay's and I see his hip open right away as he squats.  As he shifts he increases right tilt and therefore shallows and then he can turn and swing the arms fast.  So again, to me the shallowing is a biproduct.

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[johnrobison]

51 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Amg isn’t talking about the same thing from what I’ve seen.

 

This is what Jacobs 3d is describing and miraculously “sarcasm”  all these videos started coming out. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CinSGuBjlZs/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Totally different than I’ve seen Amg ever say. 
 

I’m not advocating for the opposite of what Amg says but what they say and their blender drill is not what needs to happen either. So as @MonteScheinblum always say neither extremes are good. If you could actually hold your arms would be bad and if you actually manually pull/push your arms down as also bad. 
 

I’m on the side of kwon…if your backswing is forceful enough you will have to apply the opposite pressure away with your hands away from the target “extending the trail arm” to stop your backswing. 

AMG simply isolated the movement of the arms to show what's happening in good swings. Whether someone subconsciously does it automatically, or whether someone has to make it happen correctly is irrelevant to their premise. What they're saying is that if you're under the impression that the hands should stay up and, in doing so, the pivot will get the club on the correct plane, you have a misunderstanding of the swing. Their blender drill is exactly what happens in good swings - the right arm straightens down, lowering the hands, at the same time that the left side opens, bringing the hands around. Whether someone needs to do that drill depends entirely on what they're already doing and what their perception of a correct swing is.

 

Jacobs wasn't saying that Padraig was accelerating his arms too soon and had to learn to keep his left arm up longer. He was saying that Padraig had to work on moving his upper center - linear momentum - toward the target. Though they may appear to be the same thing, they're quite different. And, again, I have no doubt that AMG would agree with him.

[FormerBigDaddy]

16 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

You said exactly what people have been preaching on here. You say your swing is more shallow on the downswing than the backswing. This is done with the trail arm extending, not the pivot. Whether you have to think about the arms or not, is just that, a thought. The data/fact is that it's not done with the pivot. The getting open/pivot piece is a steepener. 

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

[glk]

1 minute ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

 

[Ex Blade User]

12 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Again, people see what they want.  Monte says in the video he delay's and I see his hip open right away as he squats.  As he shifts he increases right tilt and therefore shallows and then he can turn and swing the arms fast.  So again, to me the shallowing is a biproduct.

As I’ve said, from the beginning of this thread, the AMG video is just showing what happens not how to do it, so everyone will have a different feel to get there conscious or not

[kobe123]

8 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

 

No need to wait anymore. Here's your example. Would you like more pictures? Even has closed shoulders while the arms have came down and right arm has increaed the angle. I dont know how you can argue GEARS.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by kobe123

[Ex Blade User]

7 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

Look at Sergio hogan Snead etc

[FormerBigDaddy]

5 minutes ago, glk said:

 

I really don't care what this video is saying... show me tiger woods at p5 and tell me that arm is not at nearly 90*.  Shallowing happens before p5.  I like AMG but show me a video of how they do their 3d modeling and who the pro's are that they say they're using in gears. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

3 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

As I’ve said, from the beginning of this thread, the AMG video is just showing what happens not how to do it, so everyone will have a different feel to get there conscious or not

That's exactly what I said pages ago....

[FormerBigDaddy]

8 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Look at Sergio hogan Snead etc

ok.... You're going to tell me he shallowed by extending his right arm?  It's still at 90* and he's already shallowed.  But ok.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[Trippels]

Feelings don't care about your facts

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

21 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Again, people see what they want.  Monte says in the video he delay's and I see his hip open right away as he squats.  As he shifts he increases right tilt and therefore shallows and then he can turn and swing the arms fast.  So again, to me the shallowing is a biproduct.

Exactly and you are the perfect example

of that. You are one of the very few that sees things differently than the rest and misunderstand what the video is demonstrating and what’s actually happening 

[FormerBigDaddy]

2 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Exactly and you are the perfect example

of that. You are one of the very few that sees things differently than the rest and misunderstand what the video is demonstrating and what’s actually happening 

So Rory is shallowing by extending his right arm?? Lol you guys can’t be serious. 

[Krt22]

16 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Sorry I'm just not buying it.  Show me a picture of any tour pro where the trail arm isn't almost bend to 90 degrees halfway down.  I'll wait... even monte's picture posted above is exactly this.  

lol did you even watch the video? Come one man, if you are going to argue, at least argue with the data, this is nothing more than hand waiving. Are you really trying to compare 2D angles when the motion happens in 3D? No one is saying the trail arm unfolds fully/immediately at the top, it's something that starts at the top and ends at impact. For someone who does not do this correctly, the feel/intention can be to unfold it all right away, but that is not what actually happens once you combine it with the pivot. That doesn't mean the pivot is responsible however, it means the pivot works in conjunction with the arms. Steep body, shallow arms, good result

[FormerBigDaddy]

You guys are taking the word of AMG as the word of god. 
 

Who are their models of? Have they ever shown them using gears on a pro? That’s right they haven’t…