New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[FormerBigDaddy]

6 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

The difference is, one has data and one doesn't. Whether you choose to believe the data, that's on you. 

The data has been questioned by someone else in this thread…

 

How do we even know what the intent of this mystery golfer in gears was when he was making the swing?

Edited January 24, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

The difference is, one has data and one doesn't. Whether you choose to believe the data, that's on you. 

But he took a few 2D stills of Tiger's swing from an off-axis angle. That is all you need man

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, glk said:

I had questions on how amg was measuring ext/int shoulder rotation back in august when they posted their short instagram clip   At that time i asked tyler ferrell his take which was basically the shoulder is difficult to measure especially when the arms get above the shoulder  and too little information.     So i asked again with this recent video.   Tyler did some digging and had two main questions 1) how are they measuring and what standard is being used, 2) and ditto for forearm pronation/supination.   
 

tyler talked with dr rob neal who's system has the general pattern of ext rotation in early downswing.    He also has dr kwon's graph which shows ext in early downswing, and third, some amm/tpi graphs showing ext in early downswing    The amounts are small as expected but the opposite of what amg is showing   Tyler did talk to the gears creator and found that gears does not measure ext/int shoulder rotation -  so the question is what is amg using?   Tyler started a closed facebook group discussion on this which include mike and sean.    3d systems dont all do the same thing in terms of their measurement and data so, i understand, this is not the first time that differences have arisen.

 

on forearm pronation/supination tyler has lots of data that shows the trail forearm is still pronating by p5 before beginning to supinate.   He gave a presentation on elite swings arm motion a few years ago that included sup/pro, flex/ext wrists, and ulnar/radial and used waite and elkington as examples.  I posted some of his graphs in the past on some threads.

 

my take is this is clearly unresolved.    To say ext rotation is never happening in the early downswing is too strong given the countering data.

and tyler says that it would be a bad idea to intentionally try to go internal.

 

 

Interesting. It sounds like there is a bit of a  problem when there are several 3d measurement systems producing conflicting data to GEARS. As you touched on, I've heard some teachers speak to the fact that there are a number of issues with various 3d measuring device limitations. 

 

It's amazing to me how many teachers were taking money from people even 3 or 4 years ago while giving poor information, but now present their ideas as if they've got it all figured out and couldn't possibly be wrong on any single aspect of teaching the swing.

 

I like Tyler's approach of taking the information with curiosity and humility. 

 

Of course we all have opinions, but lets take AMG for what they are:  Golf pros interpreting questionable scientific data and presenting it in a "truth vs fiction" marketing campaign to potential customers. That's being kind.

 

 

 

 

 

[ferrispgm]

4 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

So you know more than milo and gg? It works both ways!

I'm not saying I know more than anyone.  I am however smart enough to admit what I don't know do to lack of research and listen to those who provide information with verifiable data to back it up.  If Milo wants to provide the data to back up his claims that the hands don't lower then he can.  You should recognize that there are a ton of instructors out there who make money based on their "system" and they aren't willing to deviate from that "system" for fear of admitting they are wrong which would further mean they taught a bunch of people incorrectly or arrogance or both. I'm not saying leaving the hands up FEEL won't work for some but it's not what actually happens.

[KD1]

Challenge: Prove that by left arm parallel that the golfer has extended their trail elbow by about 10 degrees.

 

 

Evidence:

 

Results: Conclusively... inconclusive.

 

I don't know about y'all but through blurry youtube videos and poor camera angles I don't know how anyone can say with much conviction at all that this trail elbow did or did not move 10 degrees.

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

 

 

Interesting. It sounds like there is a bit of a  problem when there are several 3d measurement systems producing conflicting data to GEARS. As you touched on, I've heard some teachers speak to the fact that there are a number of issues with various 3d measuring device limitations. 

 

It's amazing to me how many teachers were taking money from people even 3 or 4 years ago while giving poor information, but now present their ideas as if they've got it all figured out and couldn't possibly be wrong on any single aspect of teaching the swing.

 

I like Tyler's approach of taking the information with curiosity and humility. 

 

Of course we all have opinions, but lets take AMG for what they are:  Golf pros interpreting questionable scientific data and presenting it in a "truth vs fiction" marketing campaign to potential customers. That's being kind.

 

 

 

 

 

Say it louder! 

[MattC555]

2 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

The data has been questioned by someone else in this thread…

 

I'll ask Monte questions, but it isn't my place to question Monte. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

3 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Challenge: Prove that by left arm parallel that the golfer has extended their trail elbow by about 10 degrees.

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/404105cadf4a5444e772eafdc4b6c30205455c0e294657c9421d9b92becfdfed/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/404105cadf4a5444e772eafdc4b6c30205455c0e294657c9421d9b92becfdfed/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/0.png.8546ca449af2e64f617e31ef2866bb01.png

 

Evidence:

/cdn-cgi/mirage/404105cadf4a5444e772eafdc4b6c30205455c0e294657c9421d9b92becfdfed/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/404105cadf4a5444e772eafdc4b6c30205455c0e294657c9421d9b92becfdfed/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/out.png.2308c4362ad26fec0b9e94641ad9a080.png

 

Results: Conclusively... inconclusive.

 

I don't know about y'all but through blurry youtube videos and poor camera angles I don't know how anyone can say with much conviction at all that this trail elbow did or did not move 10 degrees.

Even if there was 10 degrees of extension before p5 that’s not enough to shallow the club and not at all what was suggested in the AMG video. 

[KD1]

9 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Even if there was 10 degrees of extension before p5 that’s not enough to shallow the club and not at all what was suggested in the AMG video. 

 

Beginning at 14min 10sec is that exactly what they've suggested?

 

Maybe I've misunderstood the 'challenge'.

 

edit:

Or were you arguing the greater relative arm lowering point and not the elbow extension?

(I have no dog in this fight, I'm just trying to understand where everyone is coming from)

Edited January 24, 2023 by KD1

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Even if there was 10 degrees of extension before p5 that’s not enough to shallow the club and not at all what was suggested in the AMG video. 

lol once again showing the whole thread that you are grandstanding against  a video that you clearly have not fully watched and/or understood. 

 

10 degrees is exactly what the video was suggested in the video (and they didnt specific that it had to occur before p5), which when combined with some other distinct arm movements shallows the shaft. 

 

If you could only understand just how obtuse you are you might rethink your stance

[FormerBigDaddy]

6 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

lol once again showing the whole thread that you are grandstanding against  a video that you clearly have not fully watched and/or understood. 

 

10 degrees is exactly what the video was suggested in the video (and they didnt specific that it had to occur before p5), which when combined with some other distinct arm movements shallows the shaft. 

 

If you could only understand just how obtuse you are you might rethink your stance

Come On man shallowing happens way before p5. Give me a break. 
 

I apologize for being skeptical of this “data” but you all need to understand that all these online pros are trying to make money. Going viral with a new idea sells, clicks pay, views pay, etc. 

 

We don’t know who the mystery golfer is in the video, the conditions in which they were swinging, the intent behind their swing… heck we never even see the swing in full speed in the video. I’m just saying… money is being made and they aren’t showing us who it is, how it was done, and the scope of the data. For all we know it’s one swing in slow motion to sell an idea. I’m not saying it is at all either. I love Amgs videos. But taking them as gospel is a crazy to me. 

[glk]

37 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

The data has been questioned by someone else in this thread…

 

How do we even know what the intent of this mystery golfer in gears was when he was making the swing?

To be clear the arm extension data was never questioned.     It was the ext motion and supination.

 

trail arm extension is a shallow motion it just isnt a big factor in the early downswing but that isnt the same as saying it doesnt start until p5.    Ive seen dr kwon's wrist data and from it a delayed wrist uncocking is still starting slightly before p5 in general - he has an elite swing that begins uncocking before the backswing completes and ones that happen at or slightly after p5.   You are not going to see these motions in 2d video - it is likely going to look like do nothing.  Same with elbow.   Jeff mann is the master of arguing against 3d motions capture via 2d video - he once did it here via surrogate cause he is banned and he argued that the wrists were nit extending thru impact.  Dont be that guy.

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by glk

[glk]

11 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Come On man shallowing happens way before p5. Give me a break. 
 

I apologize for being skeptical of this “data” but you all need to understand that all these online pros are trying to make money. Going viral with a new idea sells, clicks pay, views pay, etc. 

 

We don’t know who the mystery golfer is in the video, the conditions in which they were swinging, the intent behind their swing… heck we never even see the swing in full speed in the video. I’m just saying… money is being made and they aren’t showing us who it is, how it was done, and the scope of the data. For all we know it’s one swing in slow motion to sell an idea. I’m not saying it is at all either. I love Amgs videos. But taking them as gospel is a crazy to me. 

Not true for everyone, shallowing does predominately happen in transition or early downswing but there are swings that wait until p6.  These are guys like phil that get steep or dont shallow enough and have to do more later in the swing - rickie and jason day (thiugh chris como appears to have fixed day and butch looks to have fixed rickie - they both used to shallow late via extending the thorax away fromthe ball.

Edited January 24, 2023 by glk

[glk]

34 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

 

Interesting. It sounds like there is a bit of a  problem when there are several 3d measurement systems producing conflicting data to GEARS. As you touched on, I've heard some teachers speak to the fact that there are a number of issues with various 3d measuring device limitations. 

 

It's amazing to me how many teachers were taking money from people even 3 or 4 years ago while giving poor information, but now present their ideas as if they've got it all figured out and couldn't possibly be wrong on any single aspect of teaching the swing.

 

I like Tyler's approach of taking the information with curiosity and humility. 

 

Of course we all have opinions, but lets take AMG for what they are:  Golf pros interpreting questionable scientific data and presenting it in a "truth vs fiction" marketing campaign to potential customers. That's being kind.

 

 

 

 

 

Gears does not measure ext/int shoulder rotation - straight from the gears creator from tyler talking withnhim - so what is amg using is the question.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Come On man shallowing happens way before p5. Give me a break. 
 

I apologize for being skeptical of this “data” but you all need to understand that all these online pros are trying to make money. Going viral with a new idea sells, clicks pay, views pay, etc. 

 

We don’t know who the mystery golfer is in the video, the conditions in which they were swinging, the intent behind their swing… heck we never even see the swing in full speed in the video. I’m just saying… money is being made and they aren’t showing us who it is, how it was done, and the scope of the data. For all we know it’s one swing in slow motion to sell an idea. I’m not saying it is at all either. I love Amgs videos. But taking them as gospel is a crazy to me. 

Once again showing us all you are debating on feels and emotions and not at all the data that was presented in the video. Give it a rest man, if you aren't going to take the time to objectively watch the video, simply don't engage in the debate. 

 

And to accuse the AMG guys of simply marketing their ideas and not admitting the "other" side is doing the same exact thing for monetary gain is laughable.  Your clear bias/lack of understanding is making it completely impossible to be objective in this debate to the point you aren't actually debating, you are just stamping your feet and waving your hands around.

[ThinkingPlus]

Well I think all of you are full of BS and the videos as well because no one, including all of you, can understand or even define time in a meaningful and fundamental way. Don't give me any of that entropy nonsense either as a definition. 😉 LOL!!!!!

 

A very good thread indeed.

Edited January 24, 2023 by ThinkingPlus
Spelling correction...

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, glk said:

To be clear the arm extension data was never questioned.     It was the ext motion and supination.

 

 

 

 

 

Nor was it every presented as the single biggest contributor to the shallowing motion, it was instead the lowering of the arms. As the arms lower, the trail elbow extends. If the arms never lower, you miss the dang ball

[glk]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Well I think all of you are full of BS and the videos as well because no one, including all of you, can understand or even define time in a meaningful and fundamental way. Don't give mean any of that entropy nonsense either as a definition. 😉 LOL!!!!!

 

A very good thread indeed.

It is all pretty spooky to me.  Is that cat dead or alive?  And more importantly was/is it a big hitter.

[rondo01]

41 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Even if there was 10 degrees of extension before p5 that’s not enough to shallow the club and not at all what was suggested in the AMG video. 

Genuinely curious here, not at attack: is there a source that says this?  

Edited January 24, 2023 by rondo01

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, glk said:

It is all pretty spooky to me.  Is that cat dead or alive?  And more importantly was/is it a big hitter.

Both. They are in a super position no matter how many dimensions are observed.

[MonteScheinblum]

Now it’s a Schroedinger’s cat discussion?

 

Excellent!!!!!!

 

According to quantum physics is the ball really there?

 

Are we really here?

 

Is our solar system just one tiny atom in the body of some super ginormous being?

 

I bet that’s true and he for sure has to unload his trial elbow from the top or he will tear his rotator cuff and the Milky Way is in his right shoulder.   We’re screwed if he is being taught to hold lag.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[KD1]

I'm a casual Milo fan. He's been brought up a few times as a counter point to the AMG video. I'm not so sure that his method conflicts, at least to a large degree, to what AMG was showing. Maybe this is irrelevant to this discussion but I was reminded of this video. Around 7 minute mark is the part of this video that left an impression on me when I first saw it, as a matter of fact I was reminded of this video when watched the AMG video! At the time I thought to my self "what great validation" but that I understand that could have just been my own biases and me seeing what I want to see.

 

[503Mike]

oops

Edited January 24, 2023 by 503Mike

[FormerBigDaddy]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Nor was it every presented as the single biggest contributor to the shallowing motion, it was instead the lowering of the arms. As the arms lower, the trail elbow extends. If the arms never lower, you miss the dang ball

And I’ll beat the horse well after it’s dead saying the arms lower and shallow as a result and bi product of ground forces. Pressure shift, hips begin to turn, spine goes into right tilt as a result giving the illusion of the arms lowering independently. That’s my entire argument. I do not believe gears can actively produce data showing how the body, momentum, and gravity make the club shallow. It just shows the arms lowering and I think many people are just taking that and running with it. Thinking you have to drop the arms and extend to shallow. I’m just saying it’s a reaction of good sequencing. 
 

For those who say I haven’t watched the video, I have several times. 
 

Be an athlete. 

[503Mike]

5 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

And I’ll beat the horse well after it’s dead saying the arms lower and shallow as a result and bi product of ground forces. Pressure shift, hips begin to turn, spine goes into right tilt as a result giving the illusion of the arms lowering independently. That’s my entire argument. I do not believe gears can actively produce data showing how the body, momentum, and gravity make the club shallow. It just shows the arms lowering and I think many people are just taking that and running with it. Thinking you have to drop the arms and extend to shallow. I’m just saying it’s a reaction of good sequencing. 
 

For those who say I haven’t watched the video, I have several times. 
 

Be an athlete. 

I skipped a bunch of pages and the last one I read had you signing off from this discussion for the third time. I'm starting to think maybe you didn't really mean it

   

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

And I’ll beat the horse well after it’s dead saying the arms lower and shallow as a result and bi product of ground forces. Pressure shift, hips begin to turn, spine goes into right tilt as a result giving the illusion of the arms lowering independently. That’s my entire argument. 

You are right, the ground forces absolutely start to lower the arms. As long as you forget a dimension and direction of the force vectors, the math checks out

[ferrispgm]

11 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

And I’ll beat the horse well after it’s dead saying the arms lower and shallow as a result and bi product of ground forces. Pressure shift, hips begin to turn, spine goes into right tilt as a result giving the illusion of the arms lowering independently. That’s my entire argument. I do not believe gears can actively produce data showing how the body, momentum, and gravity make the club shallow. It just shows the arms lowering and I think many people are just taking that and running with it. Thinking you have to drop the arms and extend to shallow. I’m just saying it’s a reaction of good sequencing. 
 

For those who say I haven’t watched the video, I have several times. 
 

Be an athlete. 

So the angles measure on every complex software are all illusions?  If a 10oz measuring cup is filled halfway do you say it's half empty or the amount of liquid in there is an illusion, it's actually only 2oz full?

[johnrobison]

23 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

And I’ll beat the horse well after it’s dead saying the arms lower and shallow as a result and bi product of ground forces. Pressure shift, hips begin to turn, spine goes into right tilt as a result giving the illusion of the arms lowering independently. That’s my entire argument. I do not believe gears can actively produce data showing how the body, momentum, and gravity make the club shallow. It just shows the arms lowering and I think many people are just taking that and running with it. Thinking you have to drop the arms and extend to shallow. I’m just saying it’s a reaction of good sequencing. 
 

For those who say I haven’t watched the video, I have several times. 
 

Be an athlete. 

It's no illusion that the arms are lowering independently. Even in your pics of Tiger, it's as clear as day that the hands are increasing their distance from his right shoulder from the entire time. From P4 on, they continue to get farther away and there's simply no way to do that without them moving independently of the rib cage. It's just blatantly obvious in the pics that you, yourself, posted.

 

And it doesn't even matter whether they're lowering as a result of something - conscious effort, reaction to the ground, gravity (we already know that's not it, though), or whatever. AMG was simply pointing out the fact that they do, indeed lower. No good player "keeps their hands up" or pins their lead arm to the chest. The right arm straightens the entire time.

 

Also, again, it's not about when the club shallows. That's a 2d perspective that you have to detach yourself from. As was also made clear, the club is in its shallowest position at P4. It doesn't "shallow" further. It will steepen if you rotate and don't lower the hands, of course. But it's shallow at P4 and lowering the hands/straightening the right arm, while rotating is what's keeping it on that shallow plane. Also very clear to see in the pics of Tiger you posted as well as in Milo's Instagram post of 2 pivot examples. In his "shallow" pivot example, his right arm is very obviously moving and in his steep example it isn't.

Edited January 24, 2023 by johnrobison

[ThinkingPlus]

23 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Now it’s a Schroedinger’s cat discussion?

 

Excellent!!!!!!

 

According to quantum physics is the ball really there?

 

Are we really here?

 

Is our solar system just one tiny atom in the body of some super ginormous being?

 

I bet that’s true and he for sure has to unload his trial elbow from the top or he will tear his rotator cuff and the Milky Way is in his right shoulder.   We’re screwed if he is being taught to hold lag.

 

 

Actually, since most matter is composed of very little rest mass (< 10%), it is a very valid question to ask what is real especially assuming folks believe that reality implies matter implying mass. Pretty much everything, including us, is really composed of the binding energy of quarks.  The Higgs field adds a smidgen. Meh.

[glk]

To me, this is golf swing geek stuff.   Tread carefully.   To me, it is not an us vs them thing but as noted a curiosity to entertain something different in search of viable options.   We are over engineered (or just overly redundant) as humans with tons of degrees of freedom motion.
 

The magic is not in whether you dont need to go external, etc but the skill of the instructor to get someone to change their motion in spite of all the stuff in our heads that we come to the lesson tee with.
 

 I recall some 7 years ago, iteach getting me, a lifelong steep and ee'er to shallow in 5 swings (which then took 3 months to bring to the course with consistency and to start to rotate and not ee)  No talk of external this, wrists that - just showed me how i was moving the club around me and that the momentum i generated , i ended up working hard to overcome.  Then i got the stick drill and a few others as homework.    
 

or when i fell off the wagon and was not extending well in my backswing - that took a couple of swings and monte had me turning my shirt label to the target in the backswing - felt like s&t  - that little thing took me 6 months to resolve and a follow up from my garage.  No big golf concepts spoken off then either.

 

teaching us knuckleheads takes real skill and patience.