USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Oostiesalbacore]

1 hour ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Make the par fives par fours.  Zero dollars.

Make every hole a Par 3 and every problem is solved. 

[maamold]

16 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

So because the members were upset that someone played well on their course they made it longer. And because we can't have those members being upset, we have to upheave the entire game? This entire thing is about the pride of a handful of members at clubs that want to hold majors. They don't need to lengthen them. They're choosing to for vanity. 

Always some "other" excuse.

[bekgolf]

7 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

how does that change the amount of times long irons are tested ? 

 

I forgot the minimum times per round on that one.  Is there a USGA rule on how many times a long iron is used?  Does it count if it's off the tee?

 

All joking aside what is your opinion on it, what should the course design criteria be for long irons being used, every par 4, maybe most par 3's? 

 

It's something I don't even think about when I'm watching unless the player is using a long iron, i.e. I'm not expecting or looking for it to happen.  I am usually impressed with the skill and shot placement when the pro is required to use them and I do find it exciting to see them pull it off.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

I’d say this has been answered At Least 50 times in this thread alone.

 

But we’ll be waiting another 400 pages for titleist99 to tell us roughly where he lives where literally zero courses have added length

 

please lock the thread 

I'll accept your list of all the courses in your area that have purchased land, become obsolete, or can't put on a tournament because they're too short. (a claim by RBs)

 

Again, 67 golf courses within a 20 mile radius of my location and zero has bought any land or has not been able to conduct tournaments because golfers are hitting the golf ball too far.

 

Oh, please tell me where you live. The internet wants to know. 😂

[klebs01]

28 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I'll accept your list of all the courses in your area that have purchased land, become obsolete, or can't put on a tournament because they're too short. (a claim by RBs)

 

Again, 67 golf courses within a 20 mile radius of my location and zero has bought any land or has not been able to conduct tournaments because golfers are hitting the golf ball too far.

 

Oh, please tell me where you live. The internet wants to know. 😂

Ok. So you are just not going to answer the question. I’ll take this as an admission that the courses have added length. 

[clevited]

3 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

I’d say this has been answered At Least 50 times in this thread alone.

 

But we’ll be waiting another 400 pages for titleist99 to tell us roughly where he lives where literally zero courses have added length

 

please lock the thread 

 

Rather than lock this thread, I vote you get rebanned Miles.  It is poor form to make a new account so you can return to a website just to troll.

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I live near several courses the USGA uses for open qualifying as well as some

that have hosted events like the bmw championship, US Open and other tour events over the years. None have added distance 

 

Olympia Fields? 

"This winter I ran into the current Olympia Fields superintendent, Sam MacKenzie, and he confirmed that nothing much has changed since 2017,” says Mungeam, noting the layout still maxes out at 7,343 yards (par 70), up from the 7,180 yards it played for the 2003 Open."

https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/news/olympia-fields-mark-mungeam/

 

Wilmington Country Club?

"A total of 250,000 square feet of construction was done with about 200 yards added to the course. It now measures 7,534 yards and plays to a par of 71."

https://www.pgatour.com/article/news/needtoknow/2022/08/15/five-things-to-know-wilmington-country-club-bmw-championship

 

Caves Valley?

"The first course to play a senior event over 7,000 yards at the time, Caves Valley will stretch to more than 7,100 yards this year. Along the par-4 first hole, which will be used as the 10th hole this week, being 60 yards longer (now 453 yards), the 550-yard 11th hole — now No. 2 — has also been lengthened from a “really hard” par-4 to a par-5, thus making it a par-72 course rather than the par-71 to which it was played in 2002."

https://digitaledition.carrollcountytimes.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=88cfd911-c7f1-464a-8cb9-6cfeb433cd61

 

"The other changes coming in the next year and a half include:

Adding seven or eight teeing grounds to “give it some distance,” Marucci said, with 250 to 300 yards of extra playing space, if needed;"

https://pressboxonline.com/2020/05/31/caves-valley-golf-club-to-be-modified-for-2021-bmw-championship/

 

Medinah?

"...modernizing the course for the elite championship game and adding difficulty through length, rough, and narrow playing corridors. In this way, Course 3 evolved as nearly every other championship course in America did in the late 20th century.

 

But time and technology kept catching up. In the 2019 BMW Championship, the last big tournament Medinah held, Justin Thomas shot a course-record 61 en route to a winning total of 263 (-25), 24 shots better than Lou Graham’s victorious effort at the 1975 U.S. Open."

 

Aronomink?

"For the BMW Championship in September, the course will play to about 7,200 yards. Some of the holes have been lengthened; for example the uphill par 4 18th hole is listed as 463 yards from the black tees — about 25-30 yards longer than it was for the 2010-2011 AT & T National.

“The original Ross tees still exist, they just happen to be the middle tees now,” said Hanse. “We looked at this project as a sympathetic restoration; in other words, we looked at a hole and said, ‘Ross intended this hole to be a long par 4, so what is a long par 4 in 2018?’ And could we stretch the golf course? Because sometimes you just don’t have room. We wanted to maintain the compact connectivity of the course — the last thing we wanted is to build a tee 80 yards further back, and the golfer to come off the [preceding] green and have to walk 80 yards back.”

https://www.hansegolfdesign.com/news/gil-hanses-aronimink-restoration-aimed-to-repaint-picture-of-course-ross-wanted/

 

Conway Farms?

"Forward tees have been more appropriately positioned, while length and stronger angles have been  designed for the championship tees, which is important as Conway has added many strong players to the membership roll since the project started."

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/jackson-kahn-completes-renovation-of-fazio-layout-at-conway-farms

 

"The golf course had tremendous bones but many of the strategic elements had become somewhat outdated due to the advancement in equipment and golf ball technology."

https://www.firstcallgolf.com/design-notes/feature/2023-02-28/nicklaus-design-reopens-floridas-ballenisles-east

 

Crooked Stick?

"No. 14, par 4, 497 yards

Here’s another of those holes that Daly eviscerated in 1991, turning what had been a strategic dogleg with a creek on the inside of the left elbow into a pitch-and-putt hole. The drive has since been toughened and lengthened,"

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2012/09/04/hole-hole-crooked-stick-golf-club/

 

Cherry Hills?

"...2012 U.S. Amateur Championship at the par-71, 7,409-yard Cherry Hills Country Club."

https://www.usga.org/articles/2012/08/steven-fox-wins-2012-us-amateur-21474849832.html

 

In round 2 of 2023 US Amateur it played 7,642 Par 72 and the Stroke Play leader shot a 64.

https://championships.usga.org/usamateur/2023/scoring.html

 

Cog Hill?

"Nevertheless, the renovation now allows the course to be set up at over 7,500 yards. However, thanks to the many newer forward tees, it can range all the way down to 5,400 yards for players of all skill levels."

https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/renovated-dubsdread-golf-course-at-cog-hill-is-ready-for-the-bmw-championship-and-maybe-a-u-s-open

 

!!! They not only lengthened it but they also added forward tees, something else you said no one ever does.!!!

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, North Butte said:

Apparently, every time some rich guy I’ve never met modifies a course I’ll never play that becomes one additional reason I should be playing a ball that doesn’t go as far. Do I have that right?

 

Did you choose to ignore all the examples of municipal, public daily-fee, resorts and private but more or less obscure clubs of which I have provided evidence?

[Barnacle]

11 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Did you choose to ignore all the examples of municipal, public daily-fee, resorts and private but more or less obscure clubs of which I have provided evidence?

You think anyone who catches this thread randomly is going to go back 400 pages and specifically look for your posts about course lengthening. To be honest I don’t know why any muni course would bother lengthening a course these days. Present wrxers excluded the average golfer hits like a 220 yard drive. Most muni’s maybe see 4-5 groups a day with golfers who can hit it over 300 yards. 

[smashdn]

Just now, Barnacle said:

You think anyone who catches this thread randomly is going to go back 400 pages and specifically look for your posts about course lengthening. To be honest I don’t know why any muni course would bother lengthening a course these days. Present wrxers excluded the average golfer hits like a 220 yard drive. Most muni’s maybe see 4-5 groups a day with golfers who can hit it over 300 yards. 

 

Go back and read the thread and you would find those answers too.

 

Don't think of it in terms of how many golfers cause the impact, think of it in terms of how many golfers are impacted.

[mgoblue83]

Trackman tour averages were updated yesterday. Sorry if I missed discussion in this thread. More evidence that distance continues to increase unabated and that more restrictions should be put in place.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages

 

These averages include over 200 players which means they are being dragged down by older/less competitive players. There is also around 0.5% of shots in the averages that were hit with something less than driver.

 

The reality is that the top half of the tour (actual competitive players week in and week out) are all going to be above 171mph ball speed. If you look at the top 20 players in the world it's probably closer to 181mph.

 

Those speeds and the skill level these players have make almost every course into a pitch and putt. 

[Barnacle]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Go back and read the thread and you would find those answers too.

 

Don't think of it in terms of how many golfers cause the impact, think of it in terms of how many golfers are impacted.

What part of no one is going to go back and read over 400 pages of BS and squabbling was confusing to you? 

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Trackman tour averages were updated yesterday. Sorry if I missed discussion in this thread. More evidence that distance continues to increase unabated and that more restrictions should be put in place.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages

 

These averages include over 200 players which means they are being dragged down by older/less competitive players. There is also around 0.5% of shots in the averages that were hit with something less than driver.

 

The reality is that the top half of the tour (actual competitive players week in and week out) are all going to be above 171mph ball speed. If you look at the top 20 players in the world it's probably closer to 181mph.

 

Those speeds and the skill level these players have make almost every course into a pitch and putt. 

Yet, the PGAT continue to conduct a tournament every week on courses that average 7200 yards and some less than 7000 yards.

 

We should not change the game because approx. 90 elite players can hit the ball 300 yrds. What about the other 26 million that play the game?

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Trackman tour averages were updated yesterday. Sorry if I missed discussion in this thread. More evidence that distance continues to increase unabated and that more restrictions should be put in place.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages

 

These averages include over 200 players which means they are being dragged down by older/less competitive players. There is also around 0.5% of shots in the averages that were hit with something less than driver.

 

The reality is that the top half of the tour (actual competitive players week in and week out) are all going to be above 171mph ball speed. If you look at the top 20 players in the world it's probably closer to 181mph.

 

Those speeds and the skill level these players have make almost every course into a pitch and putt. 

Those numbers aren’t really impressive. Very achievable by anyone without health issues. Seem about average for most people I play with that are under 50 without issues. 

[klebs01]

2 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Yet, the PGAT continue to conduct a tournament every week on courses that average 7200 yards and some less than 7000 yards.

 

We should not change the game because approx. 90 elite players can hit the ball 300 yrds. What about the other 26 million that play the game?

that’s the whole point. Most courses can’t get out to 7000 let alone 7200+. Those pga tour numbers are very achievable for club golfers. 

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

You think anyone who catches this thread randomly is going to go back 400 pages and specifically look for your posts about course lengthening. To be honest I don’t know why any muni course would bother lengthening a course these days. Present wrxers excluded the average golfer hits like a 220 yard drive. Most muni’s maybe see 4-5 groups a day with golfers who can hit it over 300 yards. 

Approx. 17,000 golf courses in the U.S. and he's hanging his hat on approx. 9-10 restorations that they chose to have done..... 🤣

[Titleist99]

4 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

that’s the whole point. Most courses can’t get out to 7000 let alone 7200+. Those pga tour numbers are very achievable for club golfers. 

Nor do 99% of the courses have to. You can have Qualifiers to any Tour on the planet with a golf course 6800 yards.....it's done every day.

[klebs01]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Nor do 99% of the courses have to. You can have Qualifiers to any Tour on the planet with a golf course 6800 yards.....it's done every day.

A lot of courses are struggling to get to 6800 or are land locked and can’t even get to that yardage. 

[gvogel]

16 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Yet, the PGAT continue to conduct a tournament every week on courses that average 7200 yards and some less than 7000 yards.

 

We should not change the game because approx. 90 elite players can hit the ball 300 yrds. What about the other 26 million that play the game?

I guess that the quality of golf as compared to the difficulty of the course is not what a lot of television viewers appreciate, as evidenced by decreasing viewership of regular Tour events.

 

If you make the equipment more difficult to achieve distance, the quality of the golf on TV might increase.  The other 26 million should be encouraged to move to forward tees so that their enjoyment of the game does not decrease.

[Titleist99]

7 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

A lot of courses are struggling to get to 6800 or are land locked and can’t even get to that yardage. 

It's a choice. The average male golfer hits his tee shot 220 yards. 6600 yards is more than that golfer can handle ........

Edited May 3 by Titleist99

[klebs01]

2 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

It's a choice. The average male golfer hits his tee shot 220 yards. 6600 yards is more than that golfer can handle ........

thats a bunch of old guys not the younger guys that are joining. Most courses around me were built pre depression when 6400 was a stern test. That’s a pitch and putt now. Every one of those courses need to add length to even get to 6600, 6800 whatever to stay relevant. It would be much better across the board to just roll back the ball and keep the distances proportional to the playing field. 

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, gvogel said:

I guess that the quality of golf as compared to the difficulty of the course is not what a lot of television viewers appreciate, as evidenced by decreasing viewership of regular Tour events.

 

If you make the equipment more difficult to achieve distance, the quality of the golf on TV might increase.  The other 26 million should be encouraged to move to forward tees so that their enjoyment of the game does not decrease.

The most ridiculous thing that I've heard today, but I guess the USGA/RA agrees with you.🤣

[Ashley Schaeffer]

18 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

how does that change the amount of times long irons are tested ? 

The quoted post said we only see long irons on par fives.  Want to see it more on par fours?  Make the fives fours.  Now you can see it more on par fours.  

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

thats a bunch of old guys not the younger guys that are joining. Most courses around me were built pre depression when 6400 was a stern test. That’s a pitch and putt now. Every one of those courses need to add length to even get to 6600, 6800 whatever to stay relevant. It would be much better across the board to just roll back the ball and keep the distances proportional to the playing field. 

I know those youngsters get tired of shooting 62-63 every day.....on those short golf courses.🤣 I mean with all those wedges on those pitch and putts, right!?!

[klebs01]

3 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I know those youngsters get tired of shooting 62-63 every day.....on those short golf courses.🤣 I mean with all those wedges on those pitch and putts, right!?!

well it tends to be a little closer to par, but yeah 13 wedges on second shots gets old. 

Edited May 3 by klebs01

[Ashley Schaeffer]

1 minute ago, klebs01 said:

well it tends to be a little closer to par, but yeah 13 wedges get old. 

You could just hit it shorter to improve the variety.  Just hit a 7i off the tee on a few par fours, and you'd get your increased entertainment for zero additional dollars.

[TiScape]

58 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

 400 pages of BS and squabbling  

Hey! If you don’t like what’s being said/discussed in here you can simply choose not to read it.

 

😇🤣

[klebs01]

4 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

You could just hit it shorter to improve the variety.  Just hit a 7i off the tee on a few par fours, and you'd get your increased entertainment for zero additional dollars.

or the ball can get rolled back and you can move up a tee or two if you’re that salty about it. 

[Oostiesalbacore]

Uhhh if people are hitting the ball to far, just make a rule that you can’t hit the ball that far? Draw line in the fairway that’s 300 yards from the tee box and if your ball rolls over it, it’s a stroke. 
 

boom there I settled it. Now we can all go back to making fun of Rory

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

So it doesn’t change the number of times long irons are tested 

 

glad we cleared that up 

Of course it doesn't.  But the user I quoted wanted to see it on more par fours.  I solved the problem.  Glad we cleared that up.