Better Ball for Approach Backspin

[ScooterMcTavish]

Howdy all!
 

Looking for a ball that "might" help me improve my backspin numbers on approach shots. 

 

Went for swing analysis, club fitting, and lessons this year, and have things optimized about the best I can.  For context, I am 50+, have a sweeper/picker swing (raised on munis, still often plan on heavy clay soil), and have a 7i SS of 78-80MPH.  Shafts on my new irons are some of the best I've ever played for my swing and transition (KBS $ Taper Lite), as I can feel them load and kick through the ball.  7i carry is ~150, with a launch angle of ~17*, descent angle of ~36* and backspin of ~4,500 RPM.  I also hit a small draw, with sidespin in the 350-400 RPM range.  All of these numbers are with a 2021 ProV1.

 

As where I live means that I cannot truly hit down on the ball (left elbow isn't getting any younger), I am looking for recommendations for a ball that might increase my backspin, carry, and stopping power.  For the past few years, I have used Z-Stars, ProV1 and Vice Pro, none of which seemed to distinguish itself from the other.  I also generally prefer a softer feeling ball, so I have stayed away from the XV, V1X, and Pro Plus variants of the above. 

 

Questions are:

- Would any ball add any significant amount of spin versus the above, or at best, could I expect an extra ~500 RPM? 

- To get more spin, would I need to go to a firmer ball like the ProV1x, despite how I feel about a firmer feel?

 

Welcome the experience of others.

[Abh159]

The two highest spinning balls I've played are the ProV1x and the Bridgestone BXS.

 

I literally won't play those balls because the spin too much. Like I'm sucking 8 irons back off the front of the green too much.

 

As far as feel goes... You'll get used to whatever ball your playing. It might feel odd at first, but after a few rounds you most likely won't notice the difference anymore. 

 

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

I have played the B-RXS before as a sub 105mph swing speed player, and have always thought it was a solid ball.  However, it fit into the same spin category as the balls mentioned above.

Appreciate the tips, and I'll likely pick up a dozen of both to give 'em a try.

[nkurz]

This chart should give you a lot of useful information about different balls with a 55 degree wedge:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/R3Z4GS596

 

And here's a direct link to the same balls with an 8 iron at "mid" speed:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/NSM3R7FQQ

 

If I've linked them right, these should already be sorted by spin rate.  Note that to switch between these within the table you may have to change both the "Club" and "Speed" pulldowns.  

[North Butte]

It's not universal and it's not a night-and-day difference but as a general trend, firmer balls do tend to have higher iron spin than softer ones. 

 

You can probably gain something like 10% more spin off your irons (than a Pro V1 or similar) by going to the highest spinning balls on the market. That can certainly help hold greens but isn't going to be a huge, game-changing advantage.

 

There are also some balls that will maybe 2 degrees steeper descent angle than Pro V1. So maybe sift through that 2021 MGS test Tableaux and find a couple candidates that are toward the top of the chart for both descent angle and spin with a "Mid" speed 8-iron.

 

If you found a ball you can tolerate feel-wise that added a degree or two of descent and 10% spin, I'd think that might result in noticeably better green holding with mid-iron shots. 

[Jeff58]

18 hours ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

7i carry is ~150, with a launch angle of ~17*, descent angle of ~36* and backspin of ~4,500 RPM.

A typical metric for stopping ability is a 45 degree descent angle and 6000 RPM’s will yield 5-7 yards of roll. For every 1000 or 5 degrees of reduction from those points, add 5 yards.

 

You don’t post your club setup, but there is no ball that will bring your current setup into what IMO most would consider an adequate performance window for holes where you need to land on the green.

 

The balls that tend to provide the best stopping characteristics is the V1x. The Snell MTB-x was a slightly less expensive option but of course no longer exists. There are no other non-premium options that I know of that will have a significant likelihood of helping you much unfortunately.

[ScooterMcTavish]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:13 AM, Jeff58 said:

A typical metric for stopping ability is a 45 degree descent angle and 6000 RPM’s will yield 5-7 yards of roll. For every 1000 or 5 degrees of reduction from those points, add 5 yards.

 

You don’t post your club setup, but there is no ball that will bring your current setup into what IMO most would consider an adequate performance window for holes where you need to land on the green.

 

The balls that tend to provide the best stopping characteristics is the V1x. The Snell MTB-x was a slightly less expensive option but of course no longer exists. There are no other non-premium options that I know of that will have a significant likelihood of helping you much unfortunately.

 

I should note the LM #s are with my D7 Forged 7i, which has a jacked loft (30.5*, PW is 44*).  This being stated, my base iron for comparison on the LM was an old Mizuno MP-57 7i (35*, DGS 300 shafts) which had similar stats except for being 10 yds shorter.  Wonder if an 8i in the LM might be helpful.  Also have learned that hitting off mats means higher launch, lower spin.  So the numbers quoted may be understated.

 

 

On 5/17/2023 at 4:55 PM, nkurz said:

This chart should give you a lot of useful information about different balls with a 55 degree wedge:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/R3Z4GS596

 

And here's a direct link to the same balls with an 8 iron at "mid" speed:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/NSM3R7FQQ

 

If I've linked them right, these should already be sorted by spin rate.  Note that to switch between these within the table you may have to change both the "Club" and "Speed" pulldowns.  

 

This is an awesome table, though I am guessing the MGS guys are trolling the Internet with the Pinnacle Range ball.  Interestingly, if I was to switch to a different premium ball, I could gain at least 10% from the ProV1 or Z-Stars I have been using, getting the numbers up closer to 5,000.  If we consider this a traditional 6i (based on the loft), and that it was hit off a mat, the ball may be an important piece to get that last bit of spin I need to get a bit more backspin and less release.

 

On 5/17/2023 at 7:52 PM, North Butte said:

It's not universal and it's not a night-and-day difference but as a general trend, firmer balls do tend to have higher iron spin than softer ones. 

 

You can probably gain something like 10% more spin off your irons (than a Pro V1 or similar) by going to the highest spinning balls on the market. That can certainly help hold greens but isn't going to be a huge, game-changing advantage.

 

There are also some balls that will maybe 2 degrees steeper descent angle than Pro V1. So maybe sift through that 2021 MGS test Tableaux and find a couple candidates that are toward the top of the chart for both descent angle and spin with a "Mid" speed 8-iron.

 

If you found a ball you can tolerate feel-wise that added a degree or two of descent and 10% spin, I'd think that might result in noticeably better green holding with mid-iron shots. 

 

I've gone all in with the best of the "available" balls, as the Staff Models are hard to find, and I have not enjoyed the Kirkland when using it before.  In the past, I have said I'd play the Chrome Soft if price was not an issue, so I've ordered four dozen Chrome Soft X in used "Pristine" condition to try out.  Will report back with results when they arrive.  

[elwhippy]

Bridgestone XS is a spin monster. PXG ball has produced some crazy numbers in testing. 

[ScooterMcTavish]

So wanted to update.

 

Based on the MGS chart spin numbers, I ordered some Chromesoft X balls.  To my mind, I could get used to the firmer feel if the spin looked good.

 

After three rounds with them, I have to say I was fairly disappointed.  Although their greenside manner was excellent, I found them surprisingly spinny off the tee, and their trajectory was lower than I expected.  So even if my full 8i was getting more spin, it was hitting the green with a shallower descent angle.

 

Doing a little more digging, I was starting to suspect that my swing speed may not be compressing the ball enough to truly take advantage of the spin.  My driver SS ranges between 90-95 on a solid swing, and I do keep a smooth tempo, likely as habit from playing with blade irons and pea-sized woods as a kid.  In short, although the Chromesoft X got good spin numbers from the robot, I suspected the launch angle was lower due to a lack of compression.

 

For comparison, I grabbed a leftover sleeve of Bridgestone Tour B RXS for a round yesterday to test my theory.  And it appears my theory was correct, though having a good ball-striking day did not hurt.

 

The B RXS also had very nice manners around the green.  But the trajectory off my irons was much higher.  Course conditions were incredibly dry and windy so it was difficult for me to evaluate spin - near impossible to stick anything other than a 60* wedge.  But I did not feel like I gave up much in spin.

 

This may also suggest why the ProV and Z-Star haven't worked that great for me either - the 90+ compression may just not be getting compressed enough, or I'm not launching them high enough.

 

Looks like a bit more time with low compression urethane balls may be warranted.  Was very happy with the B RXS, but am now thinking I should give the Chromesoft a twirl again.  

 

 

 

 

[hammergolf]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:40 PM, ScooterMcTavish said:

Howdy all!
 

Looking for a ball that "might" help me improve my backspin numbers on approach shots. 

 

Went for swing analysis, club fitting, and lessons this year, and have things optimized about the best I can.  For context, I am 50+, have a sweeper/picker swing (raised on munis, still often plan on heavy clay soil), and have a 7i SS of 78-80MPH.  Shafts on my new irons are some of the best I've ever played for my swing and transition (KBS $ Taper Lite), as I can feel them load and kick through the ball.  7i carry is ~150, with a launch angle of ~17*, descent angle of ~36* and backspin of ~4,500 RPM.  I also hit a small draw, with sidespin in the 350-400 RPM range.  All of these numbers are with a 2021 ProV1.

 

As where I live means that I cannot truly hit down on the ball (left elbow isn't getting any younger), I am looking for recommendations for a ball that might increase my backspin, carry, and stopping power.  For the past few years, I have used Z-Stars, ProV1 and Vice Pro, none of which seemed to distinguish itself from the other.  I also generally prefer a softer feeling ball, so I have stayed away from the XV, V1X, and Pro Plus variants of the above. 

 

Questions are:

- Would any ball add any significant amount of spin versus the above, or at best, could I expect an extra ~500 RPM? 

- To get more spin, would I need to go to a firmer ball like the ProV1x, despite how I feel about a firmer feel?

 

Welcome the experience of others.

Two things that you need are more peak height and more spin. My first recommendation would be to use the Balnamic site since you have your launch numbers. It’s a site owned by Ping that independently has robotically tested most golf balls and recorded the data. You can enter your launch data, and set the parameters that you would like. It will give you several options. Without knowing what your results will be, generally firmer golf balls with softer covers will give you higher peak height and increased spin. After you get your recommendations I would take the top 3 or 4 and test them in the course.

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

Doing a little more digging, I was starting to suspect that my swing speed may not be compressing the ball enough to truly take advantage of the spin.  My driver SS ranges between 90-95 on a solid swing, and I do keep a smooth tempo, likely as habit from playing with blade irons and pea-sized woods as a kid.  In short, although the Chromesoft X got good spin numbers from the robot, I suspected the launch angle was lower due to a lack of compression.

 

Sorry, but I have to say everything in that paragraph is completely wrong. Whatever you're seeing in terms of ball performance has nothing to do with "not compressing the ball", that is a completely discredited marketing trope that certain manufacturers were pitching a decade or so ago. 

 

Chrome Soft X is not supposedly a particularly high flying ball (what matters if flight, not initial launch angle). 

 

For low trajectory, low to moderate clubhead speed players like yourself (and like me) who have trouble holding firm greens higher flight and steeper descent angle is the way to get better green holding ability, as I and other alluded to upthread.

 

Like many balls targeted at slow swinging high handicappers the Tour B RXS has a higher trajectory dimple design than something like a Chrome Soft X. You probably ought to be focusing on high trajectory (and again, that means actual downrange flight trajectory, not initial launch angle) rather than worrying about slight differences of a few hundred rpm of spin among various models. 

 

One nice thing about prioritizing high flight over small-ish differences in spin...you can actually see how high a ball is flying for you out the course, in real world conditions. You can't see spin to tell whether Chrome Soft X is or isn't spinning 400rpm more off your 7-iron than some other ball. 

[ScooterMcTavish]

47 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Sorry, but I have to say everything in that paragraph is completely wrong. Whatever you're seeing in terms of ball performance has nothing to do with "not compressing the ball", that is a completely discredited marketing trope that certain manufacturers were pitching a decade or so ago. 

 

Chrome Soft X is not supposedly a particularly high flying ball (what matters if flight, not initial launch angle). 

 

For low trajectory, low to moderate clubhead speed players like yourself (and like me) who have trouble holding firm greens higher flight and steeper descent angle is the way to get better green holding ability, as I and other alluded to upthread.

 

Like many balls targeted at slow swinging high handicappers the Tour B RXS has a higher trajectory dimple design than something like a Chrome Soft X. You probably ought to be focusing on high trajectory (and again, that means actual downrange flight trajectory, not initial launch angle) rather than worrying about slight differences of a few hundred rpm of spin among various models. 

 

One nice thing about prioritizing high flight over small-ish differences in spin...you can actually see how high a ball is flying for you out the course, in real world conditions. You can't see spin to tell whether Chrome Soft X is or isn't spinning 400rpm more off your 7-iron than some other ball. 

 

Have to disagree on the compression, as a softer ball is likely giving me a better energy transfer.  With the B RXS yesterday, I hit the ball higher, as well as longer.   This extra distance will only come from:

- Energy transfer from proper core compression

- More backspin

 

Yes, on short greenside shots, compressing the ball matters nothing, as the full spin will be from cover interaction.  But off the tee and with full iron shots, it does make a difference.

 

Regardless, we agree 100% on a combination of trajectory and spin is key - getting the right combo for the player looks to be the holy grail.  As yes, without regular access to a monitor, real world results trump math.

 

Appreciate the reply.

[North Butte]

40 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

Have to disagree on the compression, as a softer ball is likely giving me a better energy transfer.  With the B RXS yesterday, I hit the ball higher, as well as longer.   This extra distance will only come from:

- Energy transfer from proper core compression

- More backspin

 

We do disagree but it's of no consequence. Fortunately, we don't have to design them. Just pay our 50 bucks and go play.

 

Cheers!

Edited June 21, 2023 by North Butte

[grochol17]

2 hours ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

 

Have to disagree on the compression, as a softer ball is likely giving me a better energy transfer.  With the B RXS yesterday, I hit the ball higher, as well as longer.   This extra distance will only come from:

- Energy transfer from proper core compression

- More backspin

 

If you look at the MGS chart for the Bridgestone balls, you'll see that for all three driver swing speeds the harder the ball the faster the ball speed... so even someone that has a slow driver speed will get more ball speed out of the B X than the B RXS, though the difference is only about 1 mph.  For 8 iron and wedge the balls give pretty much identical ball speeds (less than 1 mph from fastest to slowest).  Like @North Butte said that whole thing about not being able to compress the ball was pure marketing.

 

In terms of spin, the RXS is always on the low end of things, regardless of what club or swing speed you're talking about.  So maybe you were getting more spin than the ball you played before, but it isn't like the RXS is a high spin ball.

 

If you look at distances on the charts for various shots you'll see that the fastest ball isn't always the longest because there's a lot more to how far a ball goes than the two things you mention... you've also got to consider the aerodynamics of the ball and how that fits in with your launch conditions.  Using myself as an example, I tend to hit the ball high with a lot of spin.  I did a Titleist ball fitting and even though I was getting a faster driver ball speeds with the Pro V1x, I was hitting the AVX further because it spins less and the dimple design gives it a flatter ball flight, which ameliorated my less than ideal launch conditions.  On the other hand, there was a discussion with someone from Titleist that did their ball fitting with LPGA tour players and he noted that a lot of them were playing the Pro V1x because the higher ball flight and spin was helping them get more carry.

[hammergolf]

The compression myth has been busted many times by several independent tests. However, depending on a player’s launch conditions the loss in ballspeed from softer balls can sometimes be made up in yardage by lower spin rates.

[Justsomeguy]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:55 PM, nkurz said:

This chart should give you a lot of useful information about different balls with a 55 degree wedge:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/R3Z4GS596

 

And here's a direct link to the same balls with an 8 iron at "mid" speed:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/NSM3R7FQQ

 

If I've linked them right, these should already be sorted by spin rate.  Note that to switch between these within the table you may have to change both the "Club" and "Speed" pulldowns.  

Wow. Great tool.

I'd always thought there was more expected spin. If this is accurate it helps me a lot.

 

[st1800e]

2 hours ago, hammergolf said:

The compression myth has been busted many times by several independent tests.

I and others would be interested in seeing that data. Please provide.

[hammergolf]

16 minutes ago, st1800e said:

I and others would be interested in seeing that data. Please provide.

Google is your friend. 

[st1800e]

Just now, hammergolf said:

Google is your friend. 

Not mine, maybe yours.....

[Morry]

On 6/21/2023 at 2:09 PM, ScooterMcTavish said:

So wanted to update.

 

Based on the MGS chart spin numbers, I ordered some Chromesoft X balls.  To my mind, I could get used to the firmer feel if the spin looked good.

 

After three rounds with them, I have to say I was fairly disappointed.  Although their greenside manner was excellent, I found them surprisingly spinny off the tee, and their trajectory was lower than I expected.  So even if my full 8i was getting more spin, it was hitting the green with a shallower descent angle.

 

Doing a little more digging, I was starting to suspect that my swing speed may not be compressing the ball enough to truly take advantage of the spin.  My driver SS ranges between 90-95 on a solid swing, and I do keep a smooth tempo, likely as habit from playing with blade irons and pea-sized woods as a kid.  In short, although the Chromesoft X got good spin numbers from the robot, I suspected the launch angle was lower due to a lack of compression.

 

For comparison, I grabbed a leftover sleeve of Bridgestone Tour B RXS for a round yesterday to test my theory.  And it appears my theory was correct, though having a good ball-striking day did not hurt.

 

The B RXS also had very nice manners around the green.  But the trajectory off my irons was much higher.  Course conditions were incredibly dry and windy so it was difficult for me to evaluate spin - near impossible to stick anything other than a 60* wedge.  But I did not feel like I gave up much in spin.

 

This may also suggest why the ProV and Z-Star haven't worked that great for me either - the 90+ compression may just not be getting compressed enough, or I'm not launching them high enough.

 

Looks like a bit more time with low compression urethane balls may be warranted.  Was very happy with the B RXS, but am now thinking I should give the Chromesoft a twirl again.  

 

 

 

 

maxfli tour 

 

try them 

[lambo428]

Vice Pro Plus - while I have a slow swing speed, this ball flat out performs from tee to green.  150 yards and in, this ball will stop shockingly well on the green for me.  Always got run out with the ProV's et al.

[tipperi]

I am a tick faster than you, but my home course robs spin everywhere but off the tee.  "Whispy" flyer like rough, firm greens that roll 11-13 year round that are tough to hold and fairways that usually give nothing but tight firm lies.

I've chased spin for years trying to hold them, but the answer is always height.  ProV1X is the ball I can't get away from because it does both exceptionally well and really doesn't have a single weakness other than maybe not being the best wind ball.  

Ironically, the standard Chrome Soft does a really nice job as well.  It gets up in the air quick and holds it's line better than any ball I've ever played, I sacrifice a little around the greens with it compared to ProV1X and ultimately that's why it ends up being mostly a winter time ball for me, but if you have to have a softer ball that would be my suggestion. 

[Pnwpingi210]

On 5/17/2023 at 1:40 PM, ScooterMcTavish said:

Howdy all!
 

Looking for a ball that "might" help me improve my backspin numbers on approach shots. 

 

Went for swing analysis, club fitting, and lessons this year, and have things optimized about the best I can.  For context, I am 50+, have a sweeper/picker swing (raised on munis, still often plan on heavy clay soil), and have a 7i SS of 78-80MPH.  Shafts on my new irons are some of the best I've ever played for my swing and transition (KBS $ Taper Lite), as I can feel them load and kick through the ball.  7i carry is ~150, with a launch angle of ~17*, descent angle of ~36* and backspin of ~4,500 RPM.  I also hit a small draw, with sidespin in the 350-400 RPM range.  All of these numbers are with a 2021 ProV1.

 

As where I live means that I cannot truly hit down on the ball (left elbow isn't getting any younger), I am looking for recommendations for a ball that might increase my backspin, carry, and stopping power.  For the past few years, I have used Z-Stars, ProV1 and Vice Pro, none of which seemed to distinguish itself from the other.  I also generally prefer a softer feeling ball, so I have stayed away from the XV, V1X, and Pro Plus variants of the above. 

 

Questions are:

- Would any ball add any significant amount of spin versus the above, or at best, could I expect an extra ~500 RPM? 

- To get more spin, would I need to go to a firmer ball like the ProV1x, despite how I feel about a firmer feel?

 

Welcome the experience of others.

A buddy who I play most of my golf with was in the same boat as the op.  He was playing callaway erc, brx, brxs, q star divide cause he thought he needed it due to swing speed (95-100 driver, mid 80s with irons) and had to play all his approaches like links golf, landed short cause they would release.  Talked him into trying a sleeve of bxs (not the br xs version) and he immediately bout 3 dozen.  As long off the tee as any other ball for him, and gave his irons a nice piercing trajectory that now holds greens.  Maybe lost a touch of carry with irons, but more that made up for it in control.

 

those bxs are a little lower compression vs the other high speed balls so I think that helps.