What is a Power Fade?

[Cactus Jack]

What’s the secret formula to hit a high launch low spin power fade?
 

Do you aim left and hit a straight push?

 

Do you aim left and hit a push fade?

 

Do you aim left and hit a pull fade? 

Do you even aim left 🙂?

 

Do you swing in-to-out or out-to-in?

[MelloYello]

First, get on a Trackman and make sure any analysis is done with real numbers and not just what you feel like you're doing at the range because feels may be totally different from reality. Never trust a feel. 

 

Second, any time your club path is moving left of where your face is pointed the ball will fade. That's really it. If you can do that subtly (precisely matching up face and path) while hitting the center of the face with good SS you'll be hitting a "power fade."

 

Whether you hit it low or high is up to you. Whether you aim your feet a little left or not is up to you. Whether you slightly push it from your aim-line is up to you. All of that stuff is personal.

 

Learning to match up face and path so that the delta is very small is really key.

 

If you can do that you'll hit it very straight and that's basically the "power fade," a ball that is technically a fade but not by very much. To me, the straighter my fades go, the more a term like "power fade" seems appropriate. The more you curve it, the less it's a "power" anything. And that curve is decided by the face-to-path relationship. 

 

 

 

.

Edited June 5, 2023 by MelloYello

[Foxx]

A power fade is an in to out swing path with the fade setup at address.

That's all it is.

 

A slice is out to in path.

 

[getitdaily]

I'll offer up my take on numbers 

 

A power fade with driver is a shot where the face to path is no more than 1 degree open to path and path is no more than 4 degrees in either direction. Better if path I no more than 3 degrees.

 

AND smash factor is 1.46 or better.

[Cactus Jack]

4 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I'll offer up my take on numbers 

 

A power fade with driver is a shot where the face to path is no more than 1 degree open to path and path is no more than 4 degrees in either direction. Better if path I no more than 3 degrees.

 

AND smash factor is 1.46 or better.

 

For example, a -3* path (out-to-in) combined with a -2* face (closed) would produce a ball that starts slightly left of the target and falls right, correct? The inverse would produce a slight draw, and in general, the ball should travel relatively the same distance given the same delivery conditions. 

 

Why do the pros seem to favor this shot? Maybe a bit easier/more natural to swing out-to-in. In my mind it seems like it would be just as difficult to dial in vs. a comparable draw. 

[Cactus Jack]

4 hours ago, Foxx said:

A power fade is an in to out swing path with the fade setup at address.

That's all it is.

 

A slice is out to in path.

 

 

Would this produce a semi-straight left-to-right push/block type flight? 

[MelloYello]

14 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

For example, a -3* path (out-to-in) combined with a -2* face (closed) would produce a ball that starts slightly left of the target and falls right, correct? The inverse would produce a slight draw, and in general, the ball should travel relatively the same distance given the same delivery conditions. 

 

Why do the pros seem to favor this shot? Maybe a bit easier/more natural to swing out-to-in. In my mind it seems like it would be just as difficult to dial in vs. a comparable draw. 

 

In principle, the longer a golf club, the harder it will be for a golfer to draw that club with consistency and precise control. While it's easy to hit a high-draw with an 8-iron, it's quite a bit harder to hit a high-draw with a strong 3w for instance or with a driver off the deck.  

 

I think the fact we can leave the face slightly open and play the fade just makes it more easy for us whereas it's hard to close the face enough to create a draw without sometimes drastically over-closing it (or leaving it open). So when you're a fader, you can generate that left-to-right ball basically 100% of the time while the draw player will always fight the smother-hook as well as the high-push. 

 

I also think it's kind of natural for beginners to fade the ball, too. We don't play golf symmetrically. We set up on one-side of the ball so it makes sense that we end up having a natural / preferred shot-shape and put simply, the slice (or push-block) is a pretty natural outcome for most beginners. That's also part of it. 

 

A lot of player good golf is about dialing in your natural tendencies, not revolutionizing the way your body already wants to move the club. 

 

 

[MattC555]

I aim left and hit a push fade.  Path is as neutral as I can muster, preferably a wee bit in to out.   Any large amount of out to in will cause it to spin too much - losing distance.

[phizzy30]

4 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

What’s the secret formula to hit a high launch low spin power fade?
 

Do you aim left and hit a straight push?

 

Do you aim left and hit a push fade?

 

Do you aim left and hit a pull fade? 

Do you even aim left 🙂?

 

Do you swing in-to-out or out-to-in?

My power fade is an in to out swing with a slightly open face which produces a mid to high push fade with low spin.  I make a concerted effort to clear my hips and get to my left side.  Carries 290 to 300 with little roll out if it's done correctly. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by phizzy30

[Foxx]

4 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Would this produce a semi-straight left-to-right push/block type flight? 

Only if the in to out path continues out (relative to target start line) instead of in to out to inside.

 

A power fade is a properly hit fade.

A fake fade is a controlled slice, that has weak flight and distance.

 

One is an in to out path with a fade setup,

the other is an out to in path.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Foxx

[Valtiel]

9 hours ago, Foxx said:

A power fade is an in to out swing path with the fade setup at address.

That's all it is.

 

A slice is out to in path.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Foxx said:

Only if the in to out path continues out (relative to target start line) instead of in to out to inside.

 

A power fade is a properly hit fade.

A fake fade is a controlled slice, that has weak flight and distance.

 

One is an in to out path with a fade setup,

the other is an out to in path.

I'd agree with the proper/weak part, but not about the path part unfortunately unless you're arguing a different definition for it. If we're going by Trackman standards, all the prominent "power faders" on tour still come slightly from the outside, and what separates the "proper" fades from the weaker ones is how tightly controlled that path and the face angle in relation to it. The only guys that I think hit fades from the inside are ones that already have a nautrally very inside path, guys like Rory, who basically have to set up very open and hit sort of "push fades" slightly from the inside, like this. This isn't a requirement for a "power fade" at all though, and guys like DJ/Brooks/Rahm/Hovland are all coming slightly from the outside according to Trackman. Hovland even more so from the outside given how he sets up closed and hits a pull cut most of the time, mitigated by his more shut faced and delofted delivery.

@MelloYello Is right in that it's a numbers game that requires a bunch of criteria to be met to optimize a strong fade:

- Face angle and face to path. These need to be tight, nor more than a few degrees apart. You CAN be a bit extreme here, but only as long as the relationship stays tight. Pros are going to be typically 1-3* from the outside here with a face angle that is only 1-2* open to that path. 3-5* starts to get into heavier curve territory and beyond starts to leak towards a slice.

- Strike location. Ideally you're slightly above center to keep spin down to help with that higher launch/lower spin combo. Anything below center is going to get inefficient and spinny quick, sucking the power right of "power fade".

- Dynamic loft. Excessive dynamic loft is another power killer and ideally this is kept lower with height derived more from strike location. A path that is excessively from the outside gets hard to manage in this regard and high dynamic loft among the average player is the most common cause of the weak slicer flight. It takes really aggressive mechanics like Hovland's to manage this kind of path. 

If all three of those areas can be kept in check then the high flat power fade is possible.

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s nothing more than a fade that’s hit correctly instead of a wipe.  This is where the myth of a draw goes farther than a fade came from because almost no one hits a fade correctly.  Most golfers when they hit a fade,  hit a slice that isn’t driving a lot because they managed to match the face and oath better.  That does go shorter than a draw.

 

The answer is it could be any of the things you listed.

[RoyalTroon]

What is a power fade?  This is a power fade...

 

 

[Foxx]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

I'd agree with the proper/weak part, but not about the path part unfortunately unless you're arguing a different definition for it. If we're going by Trackman standards, all the prominent "power faders" on tour still come slightly from the outside, and what separates the "proper" fades from the weaker ones is how tightly controlled that path and the face angle in relation to it. The only guys that I think hit fades from the inside are ones that already have a nautrally very inside path, guys like Rory, who basically have to set up very open and hit sort of "push fades" slightly from the inside, like this. This isn't a requirement for a "power fade" at all though, and guys like DJ/Brooks/Rahm/Hovland are all coming slightly from the outside according to Trackman. Hovland even more so from the outside given how he sets up closed and hits a pull cut most of the time, mitigated by his more shut faced and delofted delivery.

@MelloYello Is right in that it's a numbers game that requires a bunch of criteria to be met to optimize a strong fade:

- Face angle and face to path. These need to be tight, nor more than a few degrees apart. You CAN be a bit extreme here, but only as long as the relationship stays tight. Pros are going to be typically 1-3* from the outside here with a face angle that is only 1-2* open to that path. 3-5* starts to get into heavier curve territory and beyond starts to leak towards a slice.

- Strike location. Ideally you're slightly above center to keep spin down to help with that higher launch/lower spin combo. Anything below center is going to get inefficient and spinny quick, sucking the power right of "power fade".

- Dynamic loft. Excessive dynamic loft is another power killer and ideally this is kept lower with height derived more from strike location. A path that is excessively from the outside gets hard to manage in this regard and high dynamic loft among the average player is the most common cause of the weak slicer flight. It takes really aggressive mechanics like Hovland's to manage this kind of path. 

If all three of those areas can be kept in check then the high flat power fade is possible.

Sure, some guys can hit long fades with an outside to in path. Pros included. And that is the easiest way of moving a ball left to right (right hand golfer). But it's also the most inconsistent, and won't go a far as coming from the inside.

And it's technically a controlled slice. 

 

All things being equal, every swing should be the same inside to out path. It's only the shot shape setup that's different.

 

That my opinion. I know there is lots of different ways to play the game. I have a feel game. Sometimes I deliberately swing outside to inside if I need to slice a ball around a tree or something.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Foxx

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, Foxx said:

But it's also the most inconsistent, and won't go a far as coming from the inside.

Both of those are objectively untrue since club path is based on mechanics which will be personal to the player, meaning consistency is subject to the person and not the number. Someone that naturally swings slightly from the outside would be less consistent if you forced them to the inside, and vice versa. And regarding distance you can optimize either. 

In a vacuum there is nothing inherently inferior or superior about an outside or an inside path, you seem to be arguing from a place that inside is always better which isn't supported by any data. BOTH become problems with then they get extreme in similar ways, just the big miss being a snap hook or a weak slice and the smaller miss being a block or a pull. The steep over the top slicer is the most common with an excessively outside path and steeper AoA, but just as problematic is the "dump the right shoulder swing to right field 'reformed' slicer" which is just trading one problem for another. And you may not disagree with that. 

Every swing should not be the same inside to out path, that's your opinion as you said and isn't backed up by anything tangible, so when someone is asking how to hit a power fade your personal opinions should be measured and not shared as fact. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Valtiel

[solson20]

13 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

What is a power fade?  This is a power fade...

 

 

 

I laughed out loud at my desk, hahaha

[Foxx]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Both of those are objectively untrue since club path is based on mechanics which will be personal to the player, meaning consistency is subject to the person and not the number. Someone that naturally swings slightly from the outside would be less consistent if you forced them to the inside, and vice versa. And regarding distance you can optimize either. 

In a vacuum there is nothing inherently inferior or superior about an outside or an inside path, you seem to be arguing from a place that inside is always better which isn't supported by any data. BOTH become problems with then they get extreme in similar ways, just the big miss being a snap hook or a weak slice and the smaller miss being a block or a pull. The steep over the top slicer is the most common with an excessively outside path and steeper AoA, but just as problematic is the "dump the right shoulder swing to right field 'reformed' slicer" which is just trading one problem for another. And you may not disagree with that. 

Every swing should not be the same inside to out path, that's your opinion as you said and isn't backed up by anything tangible, so when someone is asking how to hit a power fade your personal opinions should be measured and not shared as fact. 

A power fade is an inside to outside path, with a fade setup. Thats my view. I don't have to provide facts. People don't have to agree. But I will have an opinion on a forum champ.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Foxx

[TonyRo]

I think the term "power fade" versus just "fade" has come into prominence mostly as a function of newer equipment (most notably lower spinning, higher ball speed drivers and golf balls), which has allowed a lot of guys on tour to hit lower spinning/spin loft fades (with positive driver AoA) that go a bit further than they would without. 

[phizzy30]

49 minutes ago, TonyRo said:

I think the term "power fade" versus just "fade" has come into prominence mostly as a function of newer equipment (most notably lower spinning, higher ball speed drivers and golf balls), which has allowed a lot of guys on tour to hit lower spinning/spin loft fades (with positive driver AoA) that go a bit further than they would without. 

Partially true.  Back in the day the heads produced more spin and so did balls.  If I recall correctly, there was an old tour pro that said that pros back in the day would swing in to out almost exclusively and that an out to in swing pretty much couldn't be successful on tour.  Nowadays there are plenty of guys that have been very successful on tour swinging out to in such as Rahm, Hovland, Burns, etc. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by phizzy30

[nsxguy]

On 6/5/2023 at 2:12 PM, Cactus Jack said:

 

For example, a -3* path (out-to-in) combined with a -2* face (closed) would produce a ball that starts slightly left of the target and falls right, correct? The inverse would produce a slight draw, and in general, the ball should travel relatively the same distance given the same delivery conditions. 

 

Why do the pros seem to favor this shot? Maybe a bit easier/more natural to swing out-to-in. In my mind it seems like it would be just as difficult to dial in vs. a comparable draw. 

 

Here's what I think is a pretty good explanation. 👍

[Ri_Redneck]

In-to-out, out-to-in doesn't matter. All that matters is the face path relationship and proper strike location. The 1-2* metric mentioned multiple times is accurate. Any more and your leaking power and curving too much. It doesn't matter who's doing it or how, only the numbers matter.

 

I have settled on this as my stock shot and it has helped me tremendously. If I need to play a draw, it's a FW that I use.

 

BT

[Valtiel]

4 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

In-to-out, out-to-in doesn't matter. All that matters is the face path relationship and proper strike location. The 1-2* metric mentioned multiple times is accurate. Any more and your leaking power and curving too much. It doesn't matter who's doing it or how, only the numbers matter.

 

I have settled on this as my stock shot and it has helped me tremendously. If I need to play a draw, it's a FW that I use.

 

BT

Agreed, and personally I think the holy grail is the slightly high, slightly toe strike with a face to path *just* open enough to override the gear effects that would create an otherwise small draw. Launch goes up, spin comes down, and efficiency is basically maximized because of the strike location. The ball gets up quick, flattens, then falls towards a fade and will run like the dickens on anything that is not a swamp. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Valtiel

[phizzy30]

Just now, Valtiel said:

Agreed, and personally I think the holy grail is the slightly high, slightly toe strike with a face to path *just* open enough to override the gear effects that would create an otherwise small draw. Launch goes up, spin comes down, and efficiency is basically maximized because of the strike location. The ball gets up quick, flattens, then falls towards a fade and will run like the dickens on anything that is not a swamp. 

You just gave away the secret cheat code for the hot spot on the modern driver.  Bravo, sir. 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

You just gave away the secret cheat code for the hot spot on the modern driver.  Bravo, sir. 

 

Not really much of a secret. I seem to recall s manufacturer or 2 actually talking about it some time back. And it's been mentioned here on WRX more than a few times.

 

The real question in my mind is how skillful and/or confident the player is in his ability,,,,,,,,,,, so that he actually tries to hit the ball outside the designated sweet spot, which is usually close to dead center on the club face.

 

I'm a pretty decent driver of the ball - hit it dead center a reasonable amount of the time - but if I hit it slightly high toe it's by accident.

 

Takes some cojones to try to "miss" the sweet spot just to get a couple of extra mph.

 

[GoGoErky]

13 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

You just gave away the secret cheat code for the hot spot on the modern driver.  Bravo, sir. 

Howard has been showing this for quite a while in his driver tuneup thread and several others

[phizzy30]

6 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Howard has been showing this for quite a while in his driver tuneup thread and several others

Yes, I'm well aware. 

[Pepperturbo]

22 hours ago, Valtiel said:

the holy grail is the slightly high, slightly toe strike with a face to path *just* open enough to override the gear effects that would create an otherwise small draw.

I like that. +1

 

To the OP: LM numbers be damned; play within yourself with what you got.  The more you practice the subtle execution of a Power fade or baby draw, the easier it gets.  Either dependable flight path makes golf a bit easier. 

 

[bladehunter]

On 6/5/2023 at 7:45 PM, Valtiel said:

 

I'd agree with the proper/weak part, but not about the path part unfortunately unless you're arguing a different definition for it. If we're going by Trackman standards, all the prominent "power faders" on tour still come slightly from the outside, and what separates the "proper" fades from the weaker ones is how tightly controlled that path and the face angle in relation to it. The only guys that I think hit fades from the inside are ones that already have a nautrally very inside path, guys like Rory, who basically have to set up very open and hit sort of "push fades" slightly from the inside, like this. This isn't a requirement for a "power fade" at all though, and guys like DJ/Brooks/Rahm/Hovland are all coming slightly from the outside according to Trackman. Hovland even more so from the outside given how he sets up closed and hits a pull cut most of the time, mitigated by his more shut faced and delofted delivery.

@MelloYello Is right in that it's a numbers game that requires a bunch of criteria to be met to optimize a strong fade:

- Face angle and face to path. These need to be tight, nor more than a few degrees apart. You CAN be a bit extreme here, but only as long as the relationship stays tight. Pros are going to be typically 1-3* from the outside here with a face angle that is only 1-2* open to that path. 3-5* starts to get into heavier curve territory and beyond starts to leak towards a slice.

- Strike location. Ideally you're slightly above center to keep spin down to help with that higher launch/lower spin combo. Anything below center is going to get inefficient and spinny quick, sucking the power right of "power fade".

- Dynamic loft. Excessive dynamic loft is another power killer and ideally this is kept lower with height derived more from strike location. A path that is excessively from the outside gets hard to manage in this regard and high dynamic loft among the average player is the most common cause of the weak slicer flight. It takes really aggressive mechanics like Hovland's to manage this kind of path. 

If all three of those areas can be kept in check then the high flat power fade is possible.

Thank you.  Guys you see  do it on tour  aren’t pushing a fade in to out … it’s a nearly zeroed out path that’s going slightly out to in.  Otherwise how could the miss become a “ double cross “.  Hitting it in to out makes the double cross impossible. The miss would be a push or a duck hook.  

Edited June 8, 2023 by bladehunter

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Thank you.  Guys you see  do it on tour  aren’t pushing a fade in to out … it’s a nearly zeroed out path that’s going slightly out to in.  Otherwise how could the miss become a “ double cross “.  Hitting it in to out makes the double cross impossible. The miss would be a push or a duck hook.  

 

Wouldn't a push fade/slice be a double cross ? The double cross is a pull hook when the intention is to fade the ball, no ? 

 

I mean  I get that it isn't referred to as such but it's the same thing, no ? Having a ball's start line one way, intending to curve it one way, but instead curving it the other way ?

[bladehunter]

48 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Wouldn't a push fade/slice be a double cross ? The double cross is a pull hook when the intention is to fade the ball, no ? 

 

I mean  I get that it isn't referred to as such but it's the same thing, no ? Having a ball's start line one way, intending to curve it one way, but instead curving it the other way ?

Maybe on paper.  But anytime somebody says “ he double crossed it”. It refers to the old across the line path , where the toe closes to that path.  That’s the “ double cross “. 2 crosses.    I don’t really think you can call a push with an open face a double cross. Maybe a double push ??  But nothing is crossing , really.