How To Help A Vanity Handicapper Without Hurting His Ego?

[st1800e]

11 minutes ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Will this guy ever learn?

NO

[bcjim]

7 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Here is an update.  The vanity capper just came back from Bandon Dunes with a group of his college and high-school buddies.  My buddy, who was also my playing partner in the Scotland II series, was kind enough to take him and one of his friends up to SFO airport in a direct flight to North Bend.  He was also kind enough to pick him up at the airport coming back home.  The vanity capper departed last Thursday the 17th and returned on Monday the 21st.

 

I asked my buddy about the conversation on the way up to the airport.  He said that the vanity capper was pumped and excited to be going up because he said he will win a lot of money.  OK, we noted that.

 

So on Sunday, my buddy and I decided to tee it up at the local muni for a friendly match.  Although we were partners of the winning team during Scotland II, we just wanted to play a friendly singles match just to make things interesting.  We had a difference of six strokes, so he gave me three a side.  He had a hot start and was 4 up through 5, but momentum shifted and I won the remaining holes on the front to finish the front nine All Square.  On the back nine I played well enough to be 2 up with three holes to play, but I missed a short putt on the 16th hole to lose that one, and on the 17th hole missed another short one to lose that one also.  Damned aerification!  So on the 18th tee we were all square.  I missed the green short left and he was safely on the green about thirty feet away.  I hit a beautiful chip shot to three feet and his first putt was also about 3' short.  We both looked at each other and immediately agreed to a good-good and a halved match.  While putting the flagstick back in we both quick-putted and both made our putts anyway.  So for our scores we both shot one stroke worse than our respective handicaps, so there was no doubt in our minds that our handicaps are accurate.

 

Monday was the day to pick up the vanity capper from Bandon.  I told my buddy specifically to focus on the conversation and pay close attention to any talk of score, especially on the vanity capper's account.  In short, the vanity capper was constantly whining about losing his matches to sandbaggers.  Based on what he heard, we do not think that the vanity capper won any matches.  Even the vanity capper wanted to change the subject.

 

"So what did you do on Sunday?" asked the vanity capper.

"Oh, I just played golf.  [The Emperor] and I played a match and it was a great match."

"So," quipped the vanity capper.  "Who sandbagged the most?"

 

Thank God our match finished All Square, and my buddy told the vanity capper that we both shot one over our handicaps, hence accurate handicaps.  Will this guy ever learn?

Could turn this into a TV miniseries. 

[bcjim]

Delete

 

Dreaded dp..

Edited August 24, 2023 by bcjim

[charli]

I say get him ever lower. And just make fun of him for being a vanity 

[IndyArcher]

On 8/24/2023 at 12:01 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

 

Thank God our match finished All Square, and my buddy told the vanity capper that we both shot one over our handicaps, hence accurate handicaps.  Will this guy ever learn?

Look how you phrased the original question: “How do I help without hurting his EGO?”

 

His ego is the REASON why he’s a vanity capper. As long as his priority is protecting his ego he will never improve or have an accurate handicap. 
 

Personally, I’d risk damaging the ego specifically because it will be healthier for him in the long run even though he will be hurt and angry in the short term. 
 

What if doctors didn’t give bad prognoses because they were afraid of making someone feel bad or afraid? Lesser scale obviously but same principle. 

[MtlJeff]

I agree with a lot of guys that vanity caps only hurt themselves so unless you have a problem taking his money don't stress. 

 

One of my friends is probably the vanity cap record holder. He is in the system as a 7-8 index typically but i'm pretty sure he could not break 95 in a tournament. He's actually a really nice guy and doesn't play events, i think he just likes telling people he's good at golf. He rarely putts from inside 10 feet and often counts doubles and triples as bogeys. 

 

it bothers some people but it doesn't really bother me. He's not hurting anyone else. 

[Dewdman42]

Who cares?  I have some friends like that.  Nobody is playing for money and if they are I would have a much bigger problem with them having high sandbagger indexes.  It’s between them and their maker.  If it’s such a big problem for you that they have their own private guidelines for how to enjoy the game of golf then don’t play with them.  If you feel a sense of competition with your vanity capper friend then try to gamble with him more often until he realizes he will never win money that way.  But in the end does it really matter?

 

i think a lot of the people complaining about vanity cappers are the very ones with the big egos that seem to be bruised by their buddy claiming to have a low handicap.  Who freaking cares?  Just go play your best game and have fun.  Don’t cheat with inflated caps.  If it’s low it’s certainly not cheating anything other then the egos of other people.

 

i personally don’t discuss my own cap with my friends ever.  I don’t even tell them my score unless they ask and during the round I will never announce that I had a par or birdie either.  It’s my game not theirs.  If we are competing, which is rare, then yes it all has to be disclosed but then again if I think their cap is too low for reality I will just smile.

 

usually I find people like that also don’t follow all the penalty rules quite exactly and they way they are playing that way is totally fine also imho for casual rounds and whatever 

makes them feel good and pace of play.  But when competing with them it can be hard to tell them they have to drop their penalty drop 50 yards further from the hole then they thought they could, etc.  

 

but do I care if they play that way and walk around taking about their vanity cap?  Nope I could care less.  It’s their personal game.  Now if they brag a lot and try to compete with you verbally well that’s between you and him and I say just makes sure to gamble frequently until he humbles down 

[Dewdman42]

Personally I think sandbagging is a much bigger widespread problem than vanity caps.

[Haroputt]

I would be more angry at a sandbagged than a vanity capper if I was playing for money or at a tournament. No debate 

VC are delusional at their abilities while the sandbagger know their limits 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Haroputt

[Dewdman42]

I actually wish clubs and the industry would ENCOURAGE vanity capping.  In order to reduce sandbagging.  I wish clubs encourage all their members to feel good about themselves and work towards lowering their handicap, whether deserved or not...fine by me, give em' merit badges for lowering their index.   if it gets rid of sandbagging which is corruption that destroys all handicapped tournaments and makes them virtually pointless.

 

[Louis_Posture]

I believe the common harm done is when player uses a bragging (vanity) handicap for entry to a USGA qualifying tournament such as US Open, US Amateur, US Mid-Am etc... and then proceeds to shoot 80 or 90 something while his playing partners are shooting near 72.

Other than that the only harm a bragging handicap player does is to his own wallet.

[larrybud]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:31 PM, EmperorPenguin said:

We see it quite often: guys who claim to be low-handicappers and shoot bogey golf or worse.  If you even question his handicap he will be defensive.  I ask this question in utmost sincerity: how do you help him realize he is not as good as he thinks he is?  I hinted such to one of my friends and he challenged me to a singles match with full handicaps.  I played my own game, used my strokes to layup short of the greens, shot my handicap, and I closed him out 5&3.  Instead of realizing he was a vanity capper, he blatantly accused me of sandbagging!  How can I help him see the light?  For those of you who succeeded, how did you convince him of his delusion?

 

Just keep beating him for money. Maybe he'll finally understand it. Otherwise, what do you care?

[larrybud]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:06 AM, tatertot said:

So he's not a vanity capper ... he's a liar. That would seem to be a bigger issue.

 

There's no difference. 

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

There's no difference. 

It's the age old philosophical question. Is it a lie when you speak an untruth that you're deluded enough to believe is the truth? 

 

Most vanity cappers believe they are truly an 8 (or whatever fantasy number they have in mind) and that they simply have to work around the obvious flaws in the handicap system in order for it to spit out the right number. 

 

After all, there are threads constantly on this forum airing the grievances of all those vanity cappers who believe the system is flawed because it won't accept their solo rounds. They are 100% convinced of this, they aren't lying when they claim to be an 8hcp because that's what they get by their 20 solo round "scores". 

[larrybud]

Just now, North Butte said:

It's the age old philosophical question. Is it a lie when you speak an untruth that you're deluded enough to believe is the truth? 

 

Most vanity cappers believe they are truly an 8 (or whatever fantasy number they have in mind) and that they simply have to work around the obvious flaws in the handicap system in order for it to spit out the right number. 

 

After all, there are threads constantly on this forum airing the grievances of all those vanity cappers who believe the system is flawed because it won't accept their solo rounds. They are 100% convinced of this, they aren't lying when they claim to be an 8hcp because that's what they get by their 20 solo round "scores". 

 

I guess it depends on how he's coming up with his "handicap". Not posting all his eligible scores or low balling the scores he's posting? Definitely a liar/cheater.

 

Just making some number up in his head because he likes the sound of it? Delusional. I'm guessing he's the first since the OP is playing money games with him. 

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

 

I guess it depends on how he's coming up with his "handicap". Not posting all his eligible scores or low balling the scores he's posting? Definitely a liar/cheater.

 

 

Most bragging handicap players decide after a front nine double bogey or two that 'today is a practice round, not for posting'.

[Dewdman42]

The problem people have, including most of the people on this Internet forum, is that you are all trying to use your index as some kind of rating system for how good you think you are or want other people to think you are.  A cap doesn’t even remotely tell the whole story enough to mean anything of any significance.  It’s purpose is solely for the purpose of handicapped competition.  Nothing more.

 

You want it to mean something so that you can peacock around and be regarded a certain way and then some poser comes along faking their low cap and stealing some of your thunder, boo hoo.  
 

Just go play golf and show them how it’s done, the caps mean nothing.  Caps are only for competition and not much good for that either due to all the people with inflated caps.  The whole handicap tournament thing is just a big corrupt hoax and a waste time really other than the pure social aspect.  
 

for me personally I track mine just so I can keep track of whether I am getting better over time, lately I am but sometimes it has definitely gone the other way.  I don’t really care what anyone thinks about it because everyone else is so all over the map about how they track their index; it’s a moot point to compare myself to anyone.  Just play golf, appreciate good shots of myself and others.

 

[Soloman1]

I knew arguably the greatest golf gambler about 40 years ago. In his prime, he made about $11 million in the 60’s and 70’s.

 

As he got older, he played less, but was always hanging around a course in FL where there was a money game every weekday. Lots of famous people who loved to play for money.

 

He’d walk around before the matches and ask the vanity/ego guys what they were going to shoot that day. They’d say something like, “74 at the most!”

 

He’d reply, “I’ll bet you $200 you can’t shoot 74.”

 

He’d get a lot of bets and be enjoying a cool cocktail on the patio as they were out there grinding and never coming close to 74 or whatever their bet was.

 

And this would go on and on and on, because the vanity/ego guys would never give in. He’d commiserate with them, telling them  they had a couple bad bounces, the wind did it, you’re a much better golfer than that, don’t worry, you’ll get it back tomorrow.

 

Vanity/ego guys are easy to reel in.

 

”Just some bad luck, Jimmy. You were playing great last week. Maybe move your right hand like this…”

 

🙂

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Soloman1

[North Butte]

11 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

I guess it depends on how he's coming up with his "handicap". Not posting all his eligible scores or low balling the scores he's posting? Definitely a liar/cheater.

 

Just making some number up in his head because he likes the sound of it? Delusional. I'm guessing he's the first since the OP is playing money games with him. 

I don't play much with beginners or five-round-a-year players. Mostly I play with older guys who've played all or most of their lives. The vanity 'cappers among them tend to have an image in their head of what their handicap "should be" and they'll not post rounds which are more than a few strokes worse than their "should be" level. So they're not outright making up scores.

 

The worst offender we finally peer pressured into posting almost all of his scores but it took years. A couple decades ago he was a 2 or 3hcp and for a long time he simply refused to post any score not in the 70's because "I just didn't have my usual game today". So nobody wanted him as a partner because he played like an 8hcp but was only getting 3 strokes. 

 

We started having the pro shop post those scores for him and his handicap worked its way up to around 7 or 8 and that's where it stayed. He whined about it a lot but eventually gave in and started posting correctly (mostly). He'd rather play with the group as a 7 or 8 than not play with us at all. 

 

He's a pathological case (kind of weird guy in general if I'm honest) but it's flavors of that kind of vanity capping I notice. Whether it's the solo-round artists or the guys in danger of being ostracized from their usual foursome because they jigger up a handicap they can only play to about once in 10-15 rounds, the common thread is they have a mental image of a certain level of handicap and they selectively post only the rounds that fit their ego. 

[larrybud]

21 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

The problem people have, including most of the people on this Internet forum, is that you are all trying to use your index as some kind of rating system for how good you think you are

 

I'm using my index as a rating system for how good my best 8 out of last 20 are. That generally follows with how well I'm playing overall, but not always.

[Nels55]

Lol I have played handicap competitions for close to 50 years now.  It’s been fun and I think I have seen just about everything.  I have been accused of sandbagging many times though no one seems to say anything when I shoot a net score over 80.  I don’t worry about sandbaggers ‘winning’ because none of it really matters much in the end.  It is fun to do well once in a while and its fun to see a friend do well.  I think based on my experience that most folks are fairly honest.  

[Jimbo709]

Interesting read on EmperorPenguins story.

 

He's only hurting himself in competitions, as long as you don't pair with him.  I know someone who's somewhat like this.  The rest of us know what he's up to, and entertain ourselves with it.

 

Personally, I don't get why someone would want to.  Sure, we all would like to be a lower handicap than we actually are, but that's life. 

 

I've had people question my handicap, insisting that I'm not that high.  My response:  "I record every stroke - the same miss hits, penalties, and missed short putts I'd do in a normal round I'll also do in a tourney."  I then played the 2 round stroke play tourney, and finished a net even.  "See, my handicap is accurate.  My problem is not how well I CAN hit the ball, it's that I can't piece together a full round."

[Lobby]

Wasn’t there some guy in Jersey who plays out of Bedminster who claims on social media he won the senior championship by shooting 67?

 

Theres also a video of him shanking a chip recently.  

[Hawkeye77]

On 8/26/2023 at 2:31 PM, Dewdman42 said:

 

i think a lot of the people complaining about vanity cappers are the very ones with the big egos that seem to be bruised by their buddy claiming to have a low handicap.  Who freaking cares?  

 

Yep.

[North Butte]

Two most frequent butt-hurt posts on GolfWRX...

 

1) My friend thinks he hits his PW farther than me but the darned thing has 42 degrees of loft, mine is a real PW with 48 degrees. I just can't convince him he doesn't hit the ball as far as he thinks he does.

 

2) My friend thinks he's a 8 handicap but he'd be a 12 or higher if he played in legit tournaments like I do. I just can't convince him that he's not as good as he thinks he is. 

 

In both cases, the "friend" is likely a much happier and more well adjusted individual than the person exhibiting symptoms of pathological butt-hurt syndrome. The one who needs "help" is not the jacked loft playing, vanity capping "friend". 

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, North Butte said:

Two most frequent butt-hurt posts on GolfWRX...

 

1) My friend thinks he hits his PW farther than me but the darned thing has 42 degrees of loft, mine is a real PW with 48 degrees. I just can't convince him he doesn't hit the ball as far as he thinks he does.

 

2) My friend thinks he's a 8 handicap but he'd be a 12 or higher if he played in legit tournaments like I do. I just can't convince him that he's not as good as he thinks he is. 

 

In both cases, the "friend" is likely a much happier and more well adjusted individual than the person exhibiting symptoms of pathological butt-hurt syndrome. The one who needs "help" is not the jacked loft playing, vanity capping "friend". 

 

Closely related to, "My 6i usually goes 236 so I thought the family with small children on the green 241 from where I hit my second into the par five was fine --- after my shot ricocheted off their youngest's head the mom turned around and stared and when I got to the green she started in about how I should have waited and I told her to 'F off' and get the hell moving or get out of my way ------ was I wrong?"

[EmperorPenguin]

I recall a dinner we all had together in Scotland with the culprit capper during our Scotland II trip.  Mr. VC (Vanity Capper) insisted his handicap is indeed true because the USGA's handicapping system measures a golfer's potential ability rather than average ability, and that we only shoot our handicaps once every five or so rounds.  Looking back at our scorecards, in our nine rounds we played together (the tenth was a foursomes match at The Honourable Company, so it does not count), Mr. VC played well at only one course: The Old Course at St. Andrews.  He alleges that he shot a 71, and that includes the double he scored at the short hole on the back nine (10th?) when he pull-hooked his tee shot maybe 80 yards to the left into the gorse and never found it, so by ESC I think he gave himself a double bogey, which was the only illegitimate hole on his card. (His playing partner Lefty told me later after the trip that he did see Mr. VC drop a ball illegally outside the gorse on one hole.)  For the remainder of his rounds I do not think he broke 80 on any other day, and we caught him posting 76 at North Berwick's back tees when he should have posted at least six strokes worse from the middle tees, which we played that day.

 

Maybe the fault on our ends is that we are confusing average ability with potential ability?  Mr. VC's premise is that everyone should play worse than his handicap.  That seems to be his only legitimate defense.

Edited September 1, 2023 by EmperorPenguin

[TourSpoon]

In my old group we had a couple of guys who didn't post their bad scores as often as their good scores. Since we played mostly team games, the rest of the group adopted the "post your scores" stance because you are hurting your team. We only played with this group so it was easy to police. 

 

In my new group, we encourage vanity caps because we play a lot of individual games. The only issue we really have is the guys who only post their bad scores so the problem is reversed so we started monitoring the posting more carefully. 

 

Here is the thing, just be honest. I remember talking to a guy and saying you really need to get some rounds in to get those great scores out because they are killing your ability to even come close to shooting your handicap. Shooting your handicap is not the norm, but the way you are going its never going to happen. I would never want to be your partner until your score actually revises because we will get smoked. 

 

If they can't handle it, that's there issue. 

[mshills]

57 minutes ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I recall a dinner we all had together in Scotland with the culprit capper during our Scotland II trip.  Mr. VC (Vanity Capper) insisted his handicap is indeed true because the USGA's handicapping system measures a golfer's potential ability rather than average ability, and that we only shoot our handicaps once every five or so rounds.  Looking back at our scorecards, in our nine rounds we played together (the tenth was a foursomes match at The Honourable Company, so it does not count), Mr. VC played well at only one course: The Old Course at St. Andrews.  He alleges that he shot a 71, and that includes the double he scored at the short hole on the back nine (10th?) when he pull-hooked his tee shot maybe 80 yards to the left into the gorse and never found it, so by ESC I think he gave himself a double bogey, which was the only illegitimate hole on his card. (His playing partner Lefty told me later after the trip that he did see Mr. VC drop a ball illegally outside the gorse on one hole.)  For the remainder of his rounds I do not think he broke 80 on any other day, and we caught him posting 76 at North Berwick's back tees when he should have posted at least six strokes worse from the middle tees, which we played that day.

 

Maybe the fault on our ends is that we are confusing average ability with potential ability?  Mr. VC's premise is that everyone should play worse than his handicap.  That seems to be his only legitimate defense.

 

This post does not make sense, or perhaps I am confused.

 

A vanity handicap occurs when someone posts a score lower than he actually shot.  That is the only way.

 

The arithmetic in calculating a handicap index takes potential ability into account.  This is why a 0 index does not typically shoot 72, nor does a 10 index usually shoot 82.  The player shouldn't "juice" it by posting an even lower score....unless they like losing in money games, which is fine with me.

[Jimbo709]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:49 AM, North Butte said:

Two most frequent butt-hurt posts on GolfWRX...

 

1) My friend thinks he hits his PW farther than me but the darned thing has 42 degrees of loft, mine is a real PW with 48 degrees. I just can't convince him he doesn't hit the ball as far as he thinks he does.

 

2) My friend thinks he's a 8 handicap but he'd be a 12 or higher if he played in legit tournaments like I do. I just can't convince him that he's not as good as he thinks he is. 

 

In both cases, the "friend" is likely a much happier and more well adjusted individual than the person exhibiting symptoms of pathological butt-hurt syndrome. The one who needs "help" is not the jacked loft playing, vanity capping "friend". 

 

I laugh at guys who say I should particular clubs certain distances.  I know what I hit each club in MY bag, and that's what matters to me.

 

Also, I don't care why some people have gripes about this whole "loft jacking" fuss.  Put together 14 clubs in your bag that suit your game.  Do I care that my PW is 43*? - No, and I also carry a 48* proper wedge as well (so I have "2 PW's" is guess, but one is really a 10 iron?  Or is it that my 4I-PW are really 3-9 irons? 🙃).  I revamped most of my bag the last 2 years and am currently very happy with my set up.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Jimbo709
typo