Do name brand teachers and not so name brand teachers ever ruin highly talented players?

[Zitlow]

When I lived in Houston I would see Patrick Prince around and knew him a little bit. He played the mini tours and beat Chad Campbell in a playoff to win the Hooters Tour Championship in the late 90s.

 

He was a highly talented young player who in my opinion a lot of his talent was coached right out of him by range pros and bigger name pros in Houston. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Zitlow

[otto6457]

All the time. I'm friends with a past Haskins Award winner that was coached right off the Tour.  He was coached by a couple of "name" coaches while on Tour and lost "his" swing.  Never hit the ball as well again.

 

 

[getitdaily]

Yes.

 

But your post noted "range pros and bigger name pros". Seems like prince coached himself out of a swing by seeing too many people.

[Zitlow]

46 minutes ago, otto6457 said:

All the time. I'm friends with a past Haskins Award winner that was coached right off the Tour.  He was coached by a couple of "name" coaches while on Tour and lost "his" swing.  Never hit the ball as well again.

 

 

David Leadbetter is like the Boston Strangler, don't go near him. 

 

 

[KGrinols]

I spend an embarrassing amount of time on YouTube consuming golf coaching content.  My personal opinion is that every player has to find a coach that resonates with them. Mentally and physically.  There are so many different mentalities, approaches, styles, ways of explaining, etc etc etc.

 

But more than anything... I think people who are getting coached, are often too... what's the right word.  Agreeable?  Timid? Shy, scared, or embarrassed maybe?  They won't speak up when they don't understand something.  They'll just agree with everything the coach says (because they're obviously professionals) and will often just mindlessly fish to give the answer or action they THINK the coach wants, rather than actively trying to process what they're hearing, being shown or told etc, and actually learning what they're being told.  I think many teachers exponentially make it worse, because they're too smart and are just shoving the right answers\information down people's throats faster than the student can actually grasp the concept for themselves.

 

I think this is true for all teachers in all aspects of life.  Some styles resonate, some don't.  Some teachers can make you feel dumb and intimidate you with their knowledge, and some can make the most complex things seem simple to you.  Some people are visual learners, some need cold hard data, facts, and information en masse.  It really doesn't matter which one you are, nor which side you're on, teacher\student, what matters is finding the right fit.

 

I went to 1 golf coach.  Everything he said was 100% accurate.  But every way he attempted to show or explain it to me, didn't click.  I went home after that lesson and basically tried to find everything he said, on YouTube, until I stumbled across someone else, who said the same thing, but explained it in a way that immediately made sense to me.  The information was spot on.  The delivery and my INability to comprehend it, couldn't have been further apart.  The best teachers can identify those in real time, and adjust on the fly, to find a way to translate, but those are incredibly rare I assume.

 

There are very big YouTuber coaches, hundreds of thousands subscribers, who have shared themselves getting coached by all time greats.  Watch those videos, and rather than focusing on the lesson, focus on the dynamic between the 2 people, and watch how the "student" is instantly turned into a stammering child with zero confidence, guessing or blurring out answers they think the coach wants to hear, rather than stopping to take a second to process and answer with full comprehension.  It's very interesting to me how human personalities can appear night and day, based on when the "coach" is in a position of power vs when they become the student and are no longer the alpha in the room.

 

I'm sure coaches ruin players, but I think it's the player's responsibility to find a coach who meshes with them on the levels of interaction that are most important to them.  Whether that's intelligence, respect, kindness, so on and so forth.  I'm a person who doesn't want to be patronized.  Don't be a cheerleader, or compliment random things, or be afraid to offend\insult me.  Tell me what I did wrong, how to fix it, and let's move on.  But I know that doesn't suit everyone.

 

I grew up on construction site, I've seen my grandfather make grown men cry and quit on more than 1 occasion.  That man helped raise me, taught me most everything I knew, and I assure you, when it was time to work, there were zero compliments or pleasantries.  Only instructions and expectations.  The way I learn is the polar opposite of the way my best friend learns.  We could never ever benefit from the same coach.  Neither is right or wrong, good or bad, the only thing that matters, is what the student needs, and every student is different.

 

If I were a father, and wanted to find a coach for my child, I would do some research, set up 3-5 appointments with the best I could find in my area, have them go to each coach, and let them decide, after having an honest conversation, about... Not what's just the easiest, but what is genuinely best for them long term.

[RoyalTroon]

Bradley Hughes says he should have stuck with what got him to the PGA tour instead of listening to tour gurus once he made the tour.   

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

But more than anything... I think people who are getting coached, are often too... what's the right word.  Agreeable?  Timid? Shy, scared, or embarrassed maybe?  They won't speak up when they don't understand something.

 

You're not wrong.

 

That's why I think it's incumbent upon the instructor/coach to test the player or check that the player truly understands everything, that they feel open to discussion, etc. That they know how to continue to work on their "thing" after they leave…

[Zitlow]

31 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

Bradley Hughes says he should have stuck with what got him to the PGA tour instead of listening to tour gurus once he made the tour.   

I took lessons from a couple driving range pros and also took  lessons from Kevin Kirk and one lesson from Butch Harmon who never showed up for my second lesson. I think he was so sickened by my swing that he changed his name and fled the country. 

[vman]

At that level you need to be somewhat autonomous. I mean what are you trying to improve, a golf swing that already got you to the tour. If you don't trust what you've got then you're beaten already. It's great to have a coach, a sounding board and a confidence builder, but not so much a swing changer. And the chasing of aesthetics when something already works makes zero sense.

[Santiago Golf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

You're not wrong.

 

That's why I think it's incumbent upon the instructor/coach to test the player or check that the player truly understands everything, that they feel open to discussion, etc. That they know how to continue to work on their "thing" after they leave…

 

100% agree

 

Instruction at that level needs to be helping them understand more what they do great and how to find it again when they are in a slump

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

You're not wrong.

 

That's why I think it's incumbent upon the instructor/coach to test the player or check that the player truly understands everything, that they feel open to discussion, etc. That they know how to continue to work on their "thing" after they leave…

Here’s how I approach it.

 

It’s not “Do this!”

 

Its, “What do YOU want to do?”

 

Earlier this year Doug Barron came to play in the Hoag.  He asked me to come out and see what he was doing.  I spent a few days out there with him.  
 

He asked what I thought.  I said what I thought doesn’t matter.  I asked what he wanted, he told me, I pointed him in that direction.  He said that’s what I thought.   If not for a miracle up and down on a 50 yard bunker shot by Ernie Els on the 54 hole, he’s in a playoff and finished 1 back. 
 

Sad part is he was having elbow and wrist issues and had season ending surgery a few weeks later.

 

When I worked with Lickliter I asked him what he wanted.  I pointed him there.  Next week best finish on the tour in 6 years. 
 

Jason Gore was having trouble with his pitches.  I didn’t teach him the entirety of UTB.  I asked what he didn’t like.  EVERY shot was in the toe and he hated that:  I didn’t tell him anything but why that was happening.  “I’m not supposed to do that.”

 

”NOOOOO!!!!!!!!”

 

Very next shot was middle face.  He had 6 top 5 finishes on the PGA and Kornferey on the next 10 weeks.

 

Guess what?  That’s how you teach hacks and decent golfers too.  You educate them on what’s generally easier to do and then show them where their perceptions are off.

[Zitlow]

I don't think Patrick Prince needed a lot of coaching, he needed validation that he was on the right track.

 

A few couple years ago I was watching a golf tournament on SkySports and they had Butch in the booth watching DJ warm up.

 

Butch said Dustin came to him the day before and said he couldn't hit a fairway and would Butch look at his swing. Butch watched him hit a few balls and told Dustin he was over extending his right knee.

 

Butch said Dustin nailed 10 drives in a row and thanked him for the help. Butch and the guy in the booth were laughing about it. 

 

Rickie Fowler went back to Butch and he's playing well again, maybe y'all can see a difference but to me his swing looks the same as it did before he came back to Butch. 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Zitlow

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Rickie Fowler went back to Butch and he's playing well again, maybe y'all can see a difference but to me his swing looks the same as it did before he came back to Butch. 

 

There may have been some lightning in a bottle or placebo going on the first 3 rounds last week. 

 

For lack of a better term, Rickie was ‘shallow too shallow’ when he started seeing Butch. Butch then brought him to a more ‘shallow to steep’ pattern the last 10 years. The few swings I saw from last week looked more ‘steep to steep’ 😂 

 

From what I read, the eventual goal is “steep to shallow” 

 

Im rooting for Rickie. He’s an incredible athlete and IMO there is no reason he should not have a major by now. 

 

 

[GolfTurkey]

It's interesting that arguably the greatest modern instructor (Butch) says that his greatest feat and best attribute is not that he has helped everyone that has seen him get better, but rather that nobody that sees him gets worse.

 

At that level, they're already so good and it's easy to get worse in attempt to get better.

 

As for Ricky, it's bleeding obvious that he is playing and swinging way better since going back to Butch. Never mind the USO, he's #35 in the WR after falling out of the top 100 and watching majors on TV.

 

Last season he was 114th in strokes gained off the tee, this season he is 64th. Last season he was 150th in SG approach the green, this season he is 7th.

[chip75]

I think the most important thing is knowing how much the player wants to know about their game. With today's tech, get your player on GCQuad, 3D capture, video, and collect data when they're playing well, even if they don't see it, a coach can see when they're going off track and plan how to relay back.

 

There are great coaches on tour, but there's often a touch of snake oil as they're looking for an edge, a unique selling point of their services no  matter how competent or well-meaning they are.

[Faucette]

YES. There is a local coach in Pinehurst who is great if you get 1-2 lessons from him. If you go more he is arrorgant, condescending, rude and puts too much science into your game and takes away the natural ability in your golf game. He will give you brain lock. 

[Kuuuch]

Very interesting topic. I play quite regularly with some guys on the pga/korn ferry and love to pick their brains on the technical side of the swing and ask about recent lessons they’ve had. Imo to be a swing coach for someone at that level has to be tough, what Monte mentioned above is gold and imo how a lot of their lessons go with their teachers. 
 

What I also think is tough for a swing coach at that level is pros can get away with swing faults us amateurs cant. One of the guys I play with the most has an open clubface in the backswing, steepens it on the way down, right elbow stuck behind right hip and flip release. He’s one of the top ball strikers on the Korn ferry too and one of the top players distance wise 😂
 

 

[phizzy30]

18 hours ago, Zitlow said:

David Leadbetter is like the Boston Strangler, don't go near him. 

 

 

He ruined Patrick Reed.  Reed is a natural drawer of the ball and Leadbetter taught him how to hit a fade.  He's won one tournament since then while still a member on the PGA Tour and lost considerable distance after his swing change.  As much as I don't like him, he used to be super talented but is now nowhere near what he used to be. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by phizzy30

[Louis_Posture]

Tiger was harmed by Hank Haney, Sean Foley, and Chris Como.

Butch Harmon truly knows golf but the three instructors who followed him were faking it.

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Chris Como

 

Ha. No.

[bcjim]

[Zitlow]

Tin Cup was a driving range pro at an armadillo infested driving range in west Texas. 

 

 

 

 

[wadesworld]

Paging Sean Foley...

[PhillipG78]

Any coach that try’s to mold all their players into a particular model have ruined players. Weak grip, neutral grip, strong grip, inside take away, outside takeaway, shoulder plane swing, elbow plane swing, rear post, center post, front post. They all can be good swings the key is finding a good coach who will work with what your body wants to do instead of a one size fits all swing. Too many coaches want to force everyone to swing like Adam Scott. How many pros tried to fix a young Jim Furyk or Matt Wolf swing. There’s lots of wrong ways to swing a club, but there’s no right way. The ball doesn’t care what your swing looks like only how you get the club through the hitting zone. 

[Louis_Posture]

20 minutes ago, PhillipG78 said:

Any coach that try’s to mold all their players into a particular model have ruined players. Weak grip, neutral grip, strong grip, inside take away, outside takeaway, shoulder plane swing, elbow plane swing, rear post, center post, front post. They all can be good swings the key is finding a good coach who will work with what your body wants to do instead of a one size fits all swing. Too many coaches want to force everyone to swing like Adam Scott. How many pros tried to fix a young Jim Furyk or Matt Wolf swing. There’s lots of wrong ways to swing a club, but there’s no right way. The ball doesn’t care what your swing looks like only how you get the club through the hitting zone. 

 

I disagree.

Jack Nicklaus instructor Jack Grout refused to teach those who would not adopt the grip he taught. He did not want to waste the students time or his time, and he was right. Grout did not teach "one swing". He adhered to a few address technique fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment) and once those fundamentals were learned the players own naturally effective swing emerged.

It's true one can always find a successful Tour player or two who had an unorthodox grip or some other unconventional method, but doing things the hard way is not something that should be taught.

[PhillipG78]

17 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

I disagree.

Jack Nicklaus instructor Jack Grout refused to teach those who would not adopt the grip he taught. He did not want to waste the students time or his time, and he was right. Grout did not teach "one swing". He adhered to a few address technique fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment) and once those fundamentals were learned the players own naturally effective swing emerged.

It's true one can always find a successful Tour player or two who had an unorthodox grip or some other unconventional method, but doing things the hard way is not something that should be taught.

Jack had a flying elbow something coaches have tried to do away with since time immemorial, so clearly his coach didn’t coach to a stock swing, Jacks swing was anything but stock. And Grout probably ruined several players who didn’t math up well with the grip he taught. David Duvalls grip was the literal polar opposite of Jordan Spieth and both would not do well with a neutral grip. I’m a strong under grip, being forced to use the same grip as Jack would be bad for me. Same as doing the Vardon, vs the interlock. I had a coach try and make me do the Vardon it didn’t work. Making every player use a standard grip, takeaway and backswing is just lazy coaching. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by PhillipG78

[Louis_Posture]

7 minutes ago, PhillipG78 said:

Jack had a flying elbow something coaches have tried to do away with since time immemorial, so clearly his coach didn’t coach to a stock swing, Jacks swing was anything but stock.

Did you read my post ? Here is a quote from it:

"Grout did not teach "one swing". He adhered to a few address technique fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment) and once those fundamentals were learned the players own naturally effective swing emerged"

[PhillipG78]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

Did you read my post ? Here is a quote from it:

"Grout did not teach "one swing". He adhered to a few address technique fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment) and once those fundamentals were learned the players own naturally effective swing emerged"

Yes and none of these “fundamentals” are fixed, ESPECIALLY grip. Jacks grip and set up worked for Jack, doesn’t work for everyone. Making every player adhere to “your grip” is lazy teaching. 

[indianagolf2]

I disagree with the butch harmon is great mystique

[JungleJimbo]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:50 AM, Zitlow said:

When I lived in Houston I would see Patrick Prince around and knew him a little bit. He played the mini tours and beat Chad Campbell in a playoff to win the Hooters Tour Championship in the late 90s.

 

He was a highly talented young player who in my opinion a lot of his talent was coached right out of him by range pros and bigger name pros in Houston. 

 

 

 

On 6/23/2023 at 3:59 AM, Zitlow said:

David Leadbetter is like the Boston Strangler, don't go near him. 

 

 

 

Some have coined the term "Led poisoning"

 

15 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

He ruined Patrick Reed.  Reed is a natural drawer of the ball and Leadbetter taught him how to hit a fade.  He's won one tournament since then while still a member on the PGA Tour and lost considerable distance after his swing change.  As much as I don't like him, he used to be super talented but is now nowhere near what he used to be.