Can a 65-year old get to scratch?

[Ghostwedge]

20 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't know how it works for older/shorter hitters (the dynamic could be different). Surely there's a point of diminishing returns where you cannot reach greens but the OP clearly isn't there.

 

Anyhow, for me and the guys I know the back tees are actually a key part in lowering your index. Playing the forward tees will almost always raise a player's index. 

 

Moving forward forces you to actually shoot lower scores which means hitting it closer and turning a few bogeys into pars, pars into birdies, etc. It can also take driver out of your hand, forcing you to hit to the same spot in the fairway and somehow still shoot a better score. How does that help?!

 

If I were to play off the women's tees for instance, I'd probably have to shoot mid- or low-60s which is easier said than done despite the "advantage" in distance! 

 

That's a lot harder to do than simply making the same scores from 25-yds further back where (let's be honest) you're probably going to have larger areas in the fairway to land (a shot saver in and of itself). Yeah, it'll add some distance to certain approach shots but if you're a skilled player that isn't as penal as moving forward and having to make birdies (which are always hard) . 

 

Longer approaches here and there will be fractions of strokes whereas having to shoot multiple shots better from the up tees can be a real challenge. 

 

.

So my thinking is probably should mix and match tee's for the yardage to maintain your cap.. I would never advocate taking driver out of a players game.

That's for Executive courses. I see this every time I play a Muni, guys missing greens badly because they're forced to hit a fairway wood because they hit it 200 yds off the tee on a 420 par 4.

[MelloYello]

48 minutes ago, Ghostwedge said:

So my thinking is probably should mix and match tee's for the yardage to maintain your cap.. I would never advocate taking driver out of a players game.

That's for Executive courses. I see this every time I play a Muni, guys missing greens badly because they're forced to hit a fairway wood because they hit it 200 yds off the tee on a 420 par 4.

 

Yeah, it'll obviously became apparent to the individual player what's best given his particular situation. 

 

It sounded to me like the OP was already on the back tees so he's obviously got enough distance not to worry about playing back there. The question is what scores he'll have to shoot to maintain his index if he moves up >> probably a couple strokes. 

 

And that's just maintaining where he's at. So, in the end, dropping from a 2- to a 0-index and jumping up a box might require a drop in scoring average of as many as 4-5 shots depending on the player, the course, etc. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by MelloYello

[Moonlightgrm]

There is plenty of useful information from the group. I appreciate all of the responses. Regarding my equipment: Driver: Callaway Epic Speed set at 10* with a HZRDUS SMOKE 5.5, 60 gram shaft (iM 10), 15* Fairway Wood Callaway Epic Max with a HZRDUS SMOKE 5.5, 60 gram shaft (iM 10), 21* Titleist 910H hybrid with a Diamana Kai’li 80 gram stiff flex Mid kick shaft, Titleist t200 irons (2020 model) with AMT Black s300 shafts, wedges: Cleveland RTX ZipCore (46*, 50*, 54*, 58*) with Dynamic Gold Spinner shafts (tour issue). Edel offset putter, custom fit in 2013. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Moonlightgrm
Typo

[Mike_C]

10 minutes ago, Moonlightgrm said:

There is plenty of useful information from the group. I appreciate all of the responses. Regarding my equipment: Driver: Callaway Epic Speed set at 10* with a HZRDUS SMOKE 5.5, 60 gram shaft (iM 10), 15* Fairway Wood Callaway Epic Max with a HZRDUS SMOKE 5.5, 60 gram shaft (iM 10), 21* Titleist 910H hybrid with a Diamana Kai’li 80 gram stiff flex Mid kick shaft, Titleist t200 irons (2020 model) with AMT Black s300 shafts, wedges: Cleveland RTX ZipCore (46*, 50*, 54*, 58*) with Dynamic Gold Spinner shafts (tour issue). Edel offset putter, custom fit in 2013. 

The only thing that looks out of line to me is the shafts in your irons, you probably really need to consider lighter shafts, probably graphite.

 

I'll add another personal anecdote.   I play quite often with another guy, probably your age now, again not a big guy, but always drove it straight but not long.  He has gone through some problems with his hands and wrists, had a couple of surgeries related to nerves I think.  Anyway, a few years ago before his second surgery, he could still compete from the back tees, I played with him in our club championship probably 2-3 years ago and he shot an even par 72, which I thought was pretty impressive hitting woods/hybrids into half of the par 4s.  The thing is, he was still playing some older Apex Pro irons, with Project X 6.0 steel, and kept playing them after his surgeries. I told him those were some of the harshest/low spinning shafts he could play, but he said he had always played them and that is what he liked.  

 

Fast forward to this year, he was really struggling, especially with his irons (not enough club head speed to generate enough spin with his irons), he had lost a little more distance and you could tell he wasn't having as much fun. Eventually in about June he finally relented and went to a high end place and got fit.  They put him in some i230s with Recoil Dart 65 F3 (regular).   I played with him this past weekend, Its been like night and day.  He used to always play our blue tees, about 6400 yds, now he has moved up to the mixed tees, about 6150, but boy is he hitting his irons good.  He's not scratch, but plays to about a 3 now.  He also said he doesn't have to go soak his hands in ice after the round, the graphite and lighter weight has done wonders for his hands and wrists. 

[Moonlightgrm]

2 hours ago, Mike_C said:

The only thing that looks out of line to me is the shafts in your irons, you probably really need to consider lighter shafts, probably graphite.

 

I'll add another personal anecdote.   I play quite often with another guy, probably your age now, again not a big guy, but always drove it straight but not long.  He has gone through some problems with his hands and wrists, had a couple of surgeries related to nerves I think.  Anyway, a few years ago before his second surgery, he could still compete from the back tees, I played with him in our club championship probably 2-3 years ago and he shot an even par 72, which I thought was pretty impressive hitting woods/hybrids into half of the par 4s.  The thing is, he was still playing some older Apex Pro irons, with Project X 6.0 steel, and kept playing them after his surgeries. I told him those were some of the harshest/low spinning shafts he could play, but he said he had always played them and that is what he liked.  

 

Fast forward to this year, he was really struggling, especially with his irons (not enough club head speed to generate enough spin with his irons), he had lost a little more distance and you could tell he wasn't having as much fun. Eventually in about June he finally relented and went to a high end place and got fit.  They put him in some i230s with Recoil Dart 65 F3 (regular).   I played with him this past weekend, Its been like night and day.  He used to always play our blue tees, about 6400 yds, now he has moved up to the mixed tees, about 6150, but boy is he hitting his irons good.  He's not scratch, but plays to about a 3 now.  He also said he doesn't have to go soak his hands in ice after the round, the graphite and lighter weight has done wonders for his hands and wrists. 

Food for thought, no doubt. When I was fit for my t200 irons, I asked the fitter about graphite shafts or lighter shafts. He said a.) the AMT black starts at 104 grams (4-iron) and works it’s way up to 122 grams (pitching wedge). b.) my 7-iron swing speed was consistently at 79 mph which fits the profile for the s300 shaft. I’ve got over 300 rounds in with these irons and love the feel and the performance but I am not getting any younger, so graphite might be in the near future.

 The shaft that feels a little stout to me is the 80 gram Diamana shaft in my 910H hybrid. No complaints about the accuracy of this club, but the trajectory could be better (more height) and I occasionally feel the impact in my elbows with this club. It’s an older hybrid so I might be in the market for some newer technology. Our new pro has an account with Callaway and I have $250 in chits sitting in the pro shop so that might go towards a new hybrid. Any thoughts on Callaway’s line of hybrids?

Edited September 6, 2023 by Moonlightgrm

[getitdaily]

22 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't know how it works for older/shorter hitters (the dynamic could be different). Surely there's a point of diminishing returns where you cannot reach greens but the OP clearly isn't there.

 

Anyhow, for me and the guys I know the back tees are actually a key part in lowering your index. Playing the forward tees will almost always raise a player's index. 

 

Moving forward forces you to actually shoot lower scores which means hitting it closer and turning a few bogeys into pars, pars into birdies, etc. It can also take driver out of your hand, forcing you to hit to the same spot in the fairway and somehow still shoot a better score. How does that help?!

 

If I were to play off the women's tees for instance, I'd probably have to shoot mid- or low-60s which is easier said than done despite the "advantage" in distance! 

 

That's a lot harder to do than simply making the same scores from 25-yds further back where (let's be honest) you're probably going to have larger areas in the fairway to land (a shot saver in and of itself). Yeah, it'll add some distance to certain approach shots but if you're a skilled player that isn't as penal as moving forward and having to make birdies (which are always hard) . 

 

Longer approaches here and there will be fractions of strokes whereas having to shoot multiple shots better from the up tees can be a real challenge. 

 

.

100% agree for folks who are good ballstrikers. 

 

I play in a skins game/quota game often and they play from 6500. That's driver/3w and some sort of wedge on almost every hole. I shoot 69-74 every single time out. 

 

I can shoot 69-74 easily from 6700-6900. It's hard to consistently get under 70 even at 6500 because I just don't putt well enough. 

 

But my cap would be lower if I shot the same score from longer "tougher" distances. 

[MelloYello]

43 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

100% agree for folks who are good ballstrikers. 

 

I play in a skins game/quota game often and they play from 6500. That's driver/3w and some sort of wedge on almost every hole. I shoot 69-74 every single time out. 

 

I can shoot 69-74 easily from 6700-6900. It's hard to consistently get under 70 even at 6500 because I just don't putt well enough. 

 

But my cap would be lower if I shot the same score from longer "tougher" distances. 

 

Exactly!

 

I've got to think that's part of why distance and ball-striking end up being so strongly correlated with index. 

[slytown]

I agree you should be playing a tee forward, or two. With a driver 230 you should not be playing past 6,000 yards. Different tees are there for a reason.

 

The older you get, the more you gain strokes nearer the green. It seems like you lose strokes 100 yards in. You make a lot of birdies, so your putting is fine, but to get to 0 I think wedge work will be key. The problem is at the back tees you don't play enough wedges into greens. 

 

I can only dream of being 1.9 now, let alone at your age.

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

The problem is at the back tees you don't play enough wedges into greens

Exactly,  once a 1-2, now in my ‘70’s as an 8, playing either 6200 or 6400 (that’s where everyone plays I play with and 6400 is the default tee for all club events), I play many rounds where I don’t hit more than one or two full iron shots into a green. It’s almost always a wood or hybrid.  
 

I’m thinking of playing some “practice” rounds from 5600,  irons only, to sharpen my iron play.   

[nsxguy]

21 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

Food for thought, no doubt. When I was fit for my t200 irons, I asked the fitter about graphite shafts or lighter shafts. He said a.) the AMT black starts at 104 grams (4-iron) and works it’s way up to 122 grams (pitching wedge). b.) my 7-iron swing speed was consistently at 79 mph which fits the profile for the s300 shaft. I’ve got over 300 rounds in with these irons and love the feel and the performance but I am not getting any younger, so graphite might be in the near future.

 The shaft that feels a little stout to me is the 80 gram Diamana shaft in my 910H hybrid. No complaints about the accuracy of this club, but the trajectory could be better (more height) and I occasionally feel the impact in my elbows with this club. It’s an older hybrid so I might be in the market for some newer technology. Our new pro has an account with Callaway and I have $250 in chits sitting in the pro shop so that might go towards a new hybrid. Any thoughts on Callaway’s line of hybrids?

 

You've had your current irons for 3 years now and you like them. And your shafts, starting at 104, aren't all that heavy anyway, especially given your swing speed. My only question about the shafts would be, do you find yourself really tiring out around 13 or 14 ?

 

Is your dispersion suffering ? Do you find yourself feeling more/"too much" pain while playing ? (Especially) If the latter, changing shafts, especially to lightweight graphite, might be worthwhile.

 

If not, I would say you have NO reason to switch shafts. A small loss in swing speed will produce yardages so close to "normal", it's not worth thinking about. Dispersion ? Different story, but then 3 years ago you'd already considered that.

 

Fwiw, I'm older than you, swing the driver considerably slower than you, and still swinging Dynamic Gold (130 gm) S300 in my irons. I'm noticing about a 2-3 yard loss in "normal" distance - but I'm so comfortable with them and I don't tire out early.

 

Fwiw#2, I recently, due to not being able to elevate my 20* "pro" hybrid, switched to a 7 wood. Why did I wait so longgggggg ?  It's probably worth a try. 👍

 

Oh, and forget Mello. "Scratch" is ALSO just a number, and just a couple of strokes better than you are now. Keep on keepin' on.

[golfarb1]

5 hours ago, st1800e said:

Exactly,  once a 1-2, now in my ‘70’s as an 8, playing either 6200 or 6400 (that’s where everyone plays I play with and 6400 is the default tee for all club events), I play many rounds where I don’t hit more than one or two full iron shots into a green. It’s almost always a wood or hybrid.  
 

I’m thinking of playing some “practice” rounds from 5600,  irons only, to sharpen my iron play.   

Bernard Langer , who is 65,  recently was the oldest winner of the US Senior OPEN . He hit hybrids or fairway woods into many par 4s because he choose to NOT  hit the  driver off of the tee in order to avoid the rough . 
The technology of easier to hit hybrids and 7 woods does make a big difference

Edited September 7, 2023 by golfarb1

[BombinJim]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:23 AM, getitdaily said:

26 times your avg drive. Avg drive of 270, play from 7000.

Never heard that rule of thumb but seems reasonable. I’ve always heard 36x your 5i.

 

With your calc Rory should play from 8476yds hah!

[bluedot]

I don’t think there’s a thing in the world wrong with a 65 yr old chasing scratch.   However,  I think chasing excellence relative to other good golfers of the same age might be a better way to phrase it and approach it?  Excellence is perhaps a better quest than a particular number.  A particular index is an outcome, and confusing outcomes with goals can lead to a lot of counterproductive frustration.  
 

The winner of the NC Super Senior Championship 70+ tournament this week shot -6 (68-70) for the two days.  I’ve known him for 50+ years, and I’ve played a lot of golf with him;  he is just really, really good in every phase of the game, plays a ton of tournament golf, and wins a LOT.  He shot those scores playing real golf, on a course with heavy rough, fast greens, and near-100 degree temperatures.  It was GREAT golf by any possible measure.

 

Here’s the kicker, though:  His current index is 1.8, which also happens to be his low index for the last 12 months.  The distance between 1.8 and scratch might not sound like much, but IMO it’s huge.  And I think if you asked this guy if he’d swap beating everyone in NC over 70 for being scratch, well…

Edited September 8, 2023 by bluedot

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, bluedot said:

I don’t think there’s a thing in the world wrong with a 65 yr old chasing scratch.   However,  I think chasing excellence relative to other good golfers of the same age might be a better way to phrase it and approach it?  Excellence is perhaps a better quest than a particular number.  A particular index is an outcome, and confusing outcomes with goals can lead to a lot of counterproductive frustration.

 

You said it much better than I did on the last page, lol!

 

I agree whole-heartedly. 

 

There is no objective standard. We'll always compare ourselves to those around us. Better to be a big fish in a small pond than to try and force something arbitrary. 

[aggiegolfer21]

If you optimize your driver, you could be in the 250-260 carry range at 98 mph of clubhead speed.  I would work on that.  I wouldn't change your swing, I would just tee it higher and further forward and try to hit up on it a little more.  If it starts going too high with too much spin doing this, get fit for a new driver after you've had some time to practice.

[mneumann]

Numbers say you have to make more birdie putts.

 

You are hitting 11+ greens a round and making barely over 1 birdie a round 

 

Your up and down isn't great, but you hit so many greens that it isn't going to kill you, when you only miss 6.7 greens a round getting your up and down from 48% to 60% is only a 0.8 stroke difference on average. It's unlikely you get this higher than 60%, the best in the world are in the mid 60s. 

 

Even at 11.3 gir and 60% up and down with no 3 putts, no penalty strokes, and no extra shots (every chip is for gir+1) you are making almost 3 bogies a round on average and not offsetting them with birdies. 

 

What the stats don't figure out is the cause, but you should be able to narrow it down to some combo of the following.

 

- course has giant greens and you are gir but no where close. You are a good lag putter so you aren't 3 putting much but don't really have anything makeable. Stats are overstating your ballstriking approaching the green.

 

- you have what seem to be makeable putts but in reality they are routinely outside 20 feet. You can't really expect to make more than 1-2 of these per round even if you putt well. Still a ballstriking issue but also improving putting could help a bit. 

 

- you hit it close and aren't making putts. If you are routinely inside 15 feet with 11+ gir you should be making 3-4 birdies a round. Need to work on mid to short range putting which should also help improve the up and down slightly. 

 

 

[MelloYello]

16 hours ago, aggiegolfer21 said:

If you optimize your driver, you could be in the 250-260 carry range at 98 mph of clubhead speed.  I would work on that.  I wouldn't change your swing, I would just tee it higher and further forward and try to hit up on it a little more.  If it starts going too high with too much spin doing this, get fit for a new driver after you've had some time to practice.

 

 

I'll piggy back on this with a little anecdote. 

 

Long story short >> do a diagnostic session on a launch monitor somewhere and learn to generate a more favorable (+) AoA. 

 

Last year I discovered I was hitting down on the driver and could barely (with all my effort) get to level. With a little tweaking I worked to turn a -2^o delivery into one that could get as high as +6^o or more if I wanted. It didn't even take much athleticism. It just has to do with how you're swinging the head into the ball. Teeing it high, moving the ball forward and getting used to a slightly different feeling was all it took. 

 

The benefits are obvious, too. You carry it further (regardless of conditions). And I think you may actually end up hitting it straighter, too. My "miss" tends to be a slight push or subtle fade. In other words, my misses are very playable. 

 

Hitting down on the driver tends to put a lot of pressure on your hands, timing, etc. Hitting up allows for a more effortless release that kind of takes care of itself. 

 

 

.

Edited September 9, 2023 by MelloYello

[Moonlightgrm]

Tonight was the perfect example of my plight. Playing the back-9 in our league (3,195-yards) I hit 5 of 7 fairways and 6 of 9 greens in regulation. We have a skins pool and a nearest to the pin pool on both par 3’s. I shot 1-over par 37, but most players would have been under par. In fact after the match, my opponent said “37, that’s about as high as you could have shot. You missed a lot of chances”.  I had 8 pars and 1 bogey with 5 birdie putts inside 15-feet. I won nearest to the pin on both par 3’s at 6’ 8” and 9’ 4”, missing both putts on the high side. The other 3 misses were from slightly longer distances but all three misses were on the low side. My longest birdie putt was about 30’ and it lipped out, so that was my best effort. Needless to say, I feel like I am giving away skins money. The good news is, I got up and down 2 out of 3 times converting putts in the 6 to 8 foot neighborhood, go figure. 
As the sun was setting, I hustled over to the practice putting green and had our assistant pro watch me hit a few putts. He said tempo and stroke look good. Sometimes they just don’t go in. Come on, man, I need more than that. He recommended the clock drill starting at 3’ and working my way back 1-foot at a time. Boring but necessary. 
I am playing my friend’s course on Thursday. His club is known for smooth greens with nice pace. Let’s hope it’s my breakout day.

 

 

[bluedot]

11 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

Tonight was the perfect example of my plight. Playing the back-9 in our league (3,195-yards) I hit 5 of 7 fairways and 6 of 9 greens in regulation. We have a skins pool and a nearest to the pin pool on both par 3’s. I shot 1-over par 37, but most players would have been under par. In fact after the match, my opponent said “37, that’s about as high as you could have shot. You missed a lot of chances”.  I had 8 pars and 1 bogey with 5 birdie putts inside 15-feet. I won nearest to the pin on both par 3’s at 6’ 8” and 9’ 4”, missing both putts on the high side. The other 3 misses were from slightly longer distances but all three misses were on the low side. My longest birdie putt was about 30’ and it lipped out, so that was my best effort. Needless to say, I feel like I am giving away skins money. The good news is, I got up and down 2 out of 3 times converting putts in the 6 to 8 foot neighborhood, go figure. 
As the sun was setting, I hustled over to the practice putting green and had our assistant pro watch me hit a few putts. He said tempo and stroke look good. Sometimes they just don’t go in. Come on, man, I need more than that. He recommended the clock drill starting at 3’ and working my way back 1-foot at a time. Boring but necessary. 
I am playing my friend’s course on Thursday. His club is known for smooth greens with nice pace. Let’s hope it’s my breakout day.

 

 

My first thought reading this is that you are putting a LOT of pressure on yourself about making putts.  You shot 37 on a course that for 18 holes would be right at 6400 yds.  Could it have be lower? Sure, but so could every round., and unless I’m missing it, you didn’t three putt, right?
 

if you flip a coin and it comes up heads, the odds on the next flip, and every flip after that, are still 50-50.  We THINK that two or three heads in a row make it more likely that it’ll come up tails the next time, but that isn’t true; it’s 50-50 EVERY time.  Putting is almost the same; when you didn’t make the 6’8” putt, it doesn’t become more or less likely that you will make or miss the 9’4” putt, UNLESS you tighten up because you’re putting additional pressure on yourself by thinking, “Here we go again!” or something like that.

 

You say your “best effort” was a 30’ birdie putt, and that you also made a couple of longish putts for par.  Is it possible that lower expectations on those putts allowed a better stroke vs the shorter birdie putts that you think you should have made?  And remember that Tour pros make well under half of their 10’ putts, and that’s on PERFECT greens.  And not only do they practice a ton, but they are much more accurate than we are with their approach shots, leaving a more makeable 10 footer than we typically get.

[Moonlightgrm]

4 hours ago, bluedot said:

My first thought reading this is that you are putting a LOT of pressure on yourself about making putts.  You shot 37 on a course that for 18 holes would be right at 6400 yds.  Could it have be lower? Sure, but so could every round., and unless I’m missing it, you didn’t three putt, right?
 

if you flip a coin and it comes up heads, the odds on the next flip, and every flip after that, are still 50-50.  We THINK that two or three heads in a row make it more likely that it’ll come up tails the next time, but that isn’t true; it’s 50-50 EVERY time.  Putting is almost the same; when you didn’t make the 6’8” putt, it doesn’t become more or less likely that you will make or miss the 9’4” putt, UNLESS you tighten up because you’re putting additional pressure on yourself by thinking, “Here we go again!” or something like that.

 

You say your “best effort” was a 30’ birdie putt, and that you also made a couple of longish putts for par.  Is it possible that lower expectations on those putts allowed a better stroke vs the shorter birdie putts that you think you should have made?  And remember that Tour pros make well under half of their 10’ putts, and that’s on PERFECT greens.  And not only do they practice a ton, but they are much more accurate than we are with their approach shots, leaving a more makeable 10 footer than we typically get.

I know you are correct, without a doubt. I rarely felt pressure over a putt in my youth but feel lots of pressure to convert my birdie chances, especially on league night (skins pool). Maybe I need a Bob Rotella refresher course. 😉

As a retired mathematician I am aware of the fact that the outcome of each putt is an independent event. Your coin tossing example comes straight out of the AP Statistics curriculum on independent and dependent variables. However, human nature makes one feel that they should make their fair share. When we don’t, the frustration level builds. 

Thanks for the feedback.

[Moonlightgrm]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:54 AM, slytown said:

I agree you should be playing a tee forward, or two. With a driver 230 you should not be playing past 6,000 yards. Different tees are there for a reason.

 

The older you get, the more you gain strokes nearer the green. It seems like you lose strokes 100 yards in. You make a lot of birdies, so your putting is fine, but to get to 0 I think wedge work will be key. The problem is at the back tees you don't play enough wedges into greens. 

 

I can only dream of being 1.9 now, let alone at your age.

230 is my carry yardage. I’d estimate my total yardage ~250+ yards. Not playing past  6,000 yards? Too funny!

Edited September 18, 2023 by Moonlightgrm
edit

[slytown]

8 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

230 is my carry yardage. I’d estimate my total yardage ~250+ yards. Not playing past  6,000 yards? 🤣

 

I play to carry yardages, not roll. Mostly because I play on soft courses.  I play 6,000 to 6,500 and carry 250-270.

[bluedot]

8 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

230 is my carry yardage. I’d estimate my total yardage ~250+ yards. Not playing past  6,000 yards? 🤣

Well, fwiw…

 

Earlier I referenced the NC Super Senior Championship.  The yardage for the 65+ was 5977, and the yardage for the 70+ was 5658.  For 65+ interclub play, the CGA has a MAX allowable yardage of 5800 for a par 72 course.

 

This of course doesn’t mean that you can’t successfully play from longer yardages, and I always play from 6000 at my home course, in part because it makes the yardages I play in 70+ tournaments feel easier.  I CAN play from longer yardages, maybe up to 6400, depending on course conditions, but it just isn’t much fun for me anymore.  (My carry and overall yardages are slightly shorter but similar to yours.)

[Curiouser]

Interesting thread. IMO scratch is def worth pursuing. I'm roughly your age and like to play in local/state tournaments. I love the challenge. I leave the net stuff to the sandbaggers. I mean who wants to be a net tournament warrior? 🤣

 

I'm not sure about your 98 mph SS. I am at 90-93 and my drives are comparable to yours, and my 5i carry is about 5 yards longer than yours. So I'm wondering if maybe your driver isn't optimized for you, or your SS number is off. Just something to think about.

 

Like others have said, it seems like your low hanging fruit is your putting. Putting is my strength (when I practice), and I work on three things: face angle at impact, path, and quality of contact. My go-to drill is putting down a 4' steel ruler (it's about 2" wide). If I can keep the ball on that ruler, then I am deadly inside 8'. It is a drill you can do at home while watching golf on TV. I virtually always use a putting practice aid of some sort, except when I'm working on touch--then I take one ball and practice hitting to holes at various distances. Taking vid of your putting stroke can be a huge help, too.

 

Good luck to you, and thanks for starting such an interesting thread!

[Moonlightgrm]

51 minutes ago, Curiouser said:

Interesting thread. IMO scratch is def worth pursuing. I'm roughly your age and like to play in local/state tournaments. I love the challenge. I leave the net stuff to the sandbaggers. I mean who wants to be a net tournament warrior? 🤣

 

I'm not sure about your 98 mph SS. I am at 90-93 and my drives are comparable to yours, and my 5i carry is about 5 yards longer than yours. So I'm wondering if maybe your driver isn't optimized for you, or your SS number is off. Just something to think about.

 

Like others have said, it seems like your low hanging fruit is your putting. Putting is my strength (when I practice), and I work on three things: face angle at impact, path, and quality of contact. My go-to drill is putting down a 4' steel ruler (it's about 2" wide). If I can keep the ball on that ruler, then I am deadly inside 8'. It is a drill you can do at home while watching golf on TV. I virtually always use a putting practice aid of some sort, except when I'm working on touch--then I take one ball and practice hitting to holes at various distances. Taking vid of your putting stroke can be a huge help, too.

 

Good luck to you, and thanks for starting such an interesting thread!

Great advice! 

I played my friend's course on Thursday. I hadn't played the place in over thirty years. We played from the tips (6,800 yards) and I was satisfied with my round because I putted well for me. I hit 10 of 14 fairways, 12 GIR, and took 31 putts which are numbers that are slightly better than my home course numbers. My home course has very narrow fairways and many undulating greens (We were home to the LPGA Friendly's Classic in the 1990s). His course has firm, generous fairways and fairly flat putting surfaces. Still, I was pleased with all aspects of my round, playing a course that was for all intents and purposes, new to my eye. 

I must try your putting drills. I spent last evening practicing the clock drill starting at 3' working my way around the clock, moving back one foot each time I completed the circumference of the clock. At 6' I called it a night. 

[Nard_S]

The tell is that you were confused about putting methods and such. 

You need to answer it by delving deeper and on your own and understanding what works for you and why. Why you miss too. Start there, also start at speed control, it's the 70% solution and reveals 70% of the problem.

[Soloman1]

Age is irrelevant with shot and club selection, driving accuracy, <125 yards, short game, bunker play and putting. I know that’s obvious, but just a reminder.

 

With the possible exception of John Daly and Dustin Johnson, most good golfers are pretty smart. I’d work on those equations. 😉

 

[Moonlightgrm]

I figure it's time to update my progress. I may need to alter the title of my original post because I will turn 66 next month.

 

After missing ten days of playing golf due to COVID, I got back onto the golf course recently. I purchased a new putter without a fitting.  I simply liked the way this new putter felt in my hands. I've always used a blade putter but decided to give a mallet style putter a try. It's an Odyssey White Hot Versa Three T putter at 35" with 3* of loft. I have played three rounds with it and frankly my results are about the same. I am still averaging 32-putts per round, but the ball feels great coming off of this putter, ha ha. My practice time has been devoted to chipping and putting almost daily. I spend a little range time hitting pitches and wedges to some of the short targets. From tee to green, my numbers are consistent and may have improved a little bit since my first posting. With 54-rounds in the books here are my numbers: Fairways = 445/721, 61.72%, Greens = 619/972, 63.68%, Putts = 1735/54 = 32.13, Scoring Average = 75.7, Two best scores: 2-under par 70 and 1-under par 71 played at 6,297 yards (70.6, 122), Two worst scores: 8-over par 80 played at 6,902 yards (73.1, 133) and 9-over par 80 played at 6,465 yards (71.1, 124). Current index: 1.9

 

I am taking the advice offered here and have been working on my short game but as recommended by some, I need to have an analysis of my equipment and the parameters of my swing by a knowledgeable person. 

[Obee]

On 9/3/2023 at 3:47 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

I’ll try to be somewhat brief. I reached a zero handicap in August of 1993. I was 35-years old and could overpower most area golf courses (driver SS 112 mph). I maintained “scratch” until the end of that season. In 1994, I reverted back to my comfort zone of 2 to 3 handicap and with minor fluctuations stayed there until I reached 60-years of age. I started to notice a loss in flexibility and a loss in distance. Today, at 65-years old I am retired and before this season started I set a goal of getting back to scratch. I finished the 2022 season at 4.0. Over the winter, I worked on flexibility and strength. Once April came, I took a lesson to have a swing evaluation. My pro said my swing is fine. My Trackman numbers proved what I’d suspected. My driver SS is 98 mph with a carry of ~230 yards. My 5-iron carry is 172-yards. A far cry from days gone by. 
Here was his advice: Dump my 2-iron and 3-iron due to a loss in swing speed. This was a tough sell because I truly enjoy hitting long irons. But he was right. I don’t have the SS to get the height I need for optimum carry. I added a 21* hybrid and a 4th wedge. These have been great additions. Next he asked me what set of tees I generally play. I generally play from 6,700 yards (blue tees) to 7,000 yards (black tees) at sea level. He said that those yardages were too much for most golfers and at my age, I have earned the privilege of moving to the white tees at 6,400 yards. I swallowed my ego and play the white tees the majority of the time and the blue or black tees a handful of times. Finally, he told me to track some simple stats such as FIR, GIR, putts, up and downs, and hole-by-hole scores. 
I started tracking my data on May 27th and have 43-rounds in the books. Here are my numbers: FIR 350/580 = 60.34%, GIR 485/774 = 62.66%, total putts 1381 = 32.1 putts per 18-holes, up and down percentage 47.8%, scoring: 2 eagles, 56 birdies, 514 pars, 186 bogeys, 15 double bogeys, and 1 triple bogey. 18-hole scoring average = 75.7 or 3.7 over par. My current GHIN is 1.9 so I am moving in the right direction. Sadly, my pro has left the area to pursue better opportunities, so I never had the chance to review my numbers with him. I think my biggest stumbling block is short game. I need to make more putts! I rarely 3-putt but I miss too many makeable birdie putts. My up and down numbers could improve as well. It’s funny, before I started tracking them, I would have guessed my up and down percentage was better than 60%. My FIR numbers aren’t too bad. My missed fairways aren’t egregious with most misses within 5-yards.

Checking online for putting tips has produced more confusion than help. There are so many theories out there. 
My questions to the forum. What do my numbers suggest to you? Do the better players out there have any short game/putting suggestions that might help me reach my goal?

Thank you!

 

I'm at 93 - 95 mph driver club head speed. I'm still scratch or below when healthy. A buddy, who is 64, is also below scratch with a SS of 93 - 95.

[Obee]

2 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

I figure it's time to update my progress. I may need to alter the title of my original post because I will turn 66 next month.

 

After missing ten days of playing golf due to COVID, I got back onto the golf course recently. I purchased a new putter without a fitting.  I simply liked the way this new putter felt in my hands. I've always used a blade putter but decided to give a mallet style putter a try. It's an Odyssey White Hot Versa Three T putter at 35" with 3* of loft. I have played three rounds with it and frankly my results are about the same. I am still averaging 32-putts per round, but the ball feels great coming off of this putter, ha ha. My practice time has been devoted to chipping and putting almost daily. I spend a little range time hitting pitches and wedges to some of the short targets. From tee to green, my numbers are consistent and may have improved a little bit since my first posting. With 54-rounds in the books here are my numbers: Fairways = 445/721, 61.72%, Greens = 619/972, 63.68%, Putts = 1735/54 = 32.13, Scoring Average = 75.7, Two best scores: 2-under par 70 and 1-under par 71 played at 6,297 yards (70.6, 122), Two worst scores: 8-over par 80 played at 6,902 yards (73.1, 133) and 9-over par 80 played at 6,465 yards (71.1, 124). Current index: 1.9

 

I am taking the advice offered here and have been working on my short game but as recommended by some, I need to have an analysis of my equipment and the parameters of my swing by a knowledgeable person. 

 

I would love to see your short game action. One of the reasons I have been able to compete and stay scratch/below for so long, even though I'm dreadfully short off the tee, is that I have a varied and creative short game. Lot of guys I see that are solid ball strikers, but who struggle to get and stay below scratch have very "one-dimensional" short games, if that makes sense ....