Saguto Golf - A Strong Grip is a Potential Source of Problems

[Smash Factors]

18 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Your grip is not as strong as Jasons.

Still, your video has proved my point. Grip is equally strong in all ball positions.

[virtuoso]

This is so frustrating. I weakened my grip because Tom told me that was causing my hooks and slices and other stuff. I'm not even really used to it yet and now he's gone back to a strong grip. I really don't know what to do at this point.

[Scottbox]

Very often, instructors will warn you off the thing that gives them problems with their game. YMMV.

[Drrussell]

On 9/11/2023 at 10:08 AM, virtuoso said:

This is so frustrating. I weakened my grip because Tom told me that was causing my hooks and slices and other stuff. I'm not even really used to it yet and now he's gone back to a strong grip. I really don't know what to do at this point.

When you say, “Tom told you that was causing my hooks and slices” do you mean watching a video or actually having a lesson from him? 

 

It’s comical that guys in this thread would say that he’s a moron because of content posted on a public website. He posts all sorts of content, but teaches the stack n tilt methodology specifically, which is very consistent with the golf machine theory. 

 

One of the other guys basically described the process perfectly. The grip needs to matchup to your release pattern. If you are flipping at the ball instead of being in solid impact conditions then your miss will always be inconsistent. Some days you will time things up ok. Some days you won’t. 

 

The real question is, if you release to the target (forget about the ball), then what is your ball flight? Where does the ball start and which direction does it curve. If your release is to the target and not at the ball then you will find more consistency and then you can adjust the grip to change how open or closed you are presenting the club at impact. 

[virtuoso]

14 minutes ago, Drrussell said:

When you say, “Tom told you that was causing my hooks and slices” do you mean watching a video or actually having a lesson from him? 

 

It’s comical that guys in this thread would say that he’s a moron because of content posted on a public website. He posts all sorts of content, but teaches the stack n tilt methodology specifically, which is very consistent with the golf machine theory. 

 

One of the other guys basically described the process perfectly. The grip needs to matchup to your release pattern. If you are flipping at the ball instead of being in solid impact conditions then your miss will always be inconsistent. Some days you will time things up ok. Some days you won’t. 

 

The real question is, if you release to the target (forget about the ball), then what is your ball flight? Where does the ball start and which direction does it curve. If your release is to the target and not at the ball then you will find more consistency and then you can adjust the grip to change how open or closed you are presenting the club at impact. 

Finally, someone is making sense of this stuff. I watch every Saguto video that he releases to the public. I was starting to become confused because I felt like I was trying something different every week.

[Drrussell]

19 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Finally, someone is making sense of this stuff. I watch every Saguto video that he releases to the public. I was starting to become confused because I felt like I was trying something different every week.

Yeah. His (all public golf instruction) videos aren’t organized as a curriculum to build a swing. If you join his online program, he has a very structured program to walk through details from setup to full swing. Online videos are always difficult because the advice is based on specific situations.

 

However, because most golfers go off how things feel (what they intend to do) instead of what’s really happening, it’s so simple to take a video that you think applies to you and in reality it doesn’t. Or if a coach was to see your swing, they would recognize that there are other things to fix before you get to the grip (as an example). 

 

I have always played with a really weak left hand grip. However, this past year, I have started having some wrist issues. As a result, I have been working on changing my grip to take pressure off my wrist. Now, I am actually going to a really strong left hand grip and a neutral right hand grip. Changing my grip, requires changing my release pattern. If I try the same release pattern after changing my grip, the ball is going to be sniping low left. Point is, the grip as discussed in this video dictates the release pattern you must employ for things to match up. I didn’t watch this one specifically, but I trust that Tom is just providing the information because he sees a bunch of people who could benefit from this change.

Edited January 31 by Drrussell

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, Drrussell said:

Yeah. His (all public golf instruction) videos aren’t organized as a curriculum to build a swing. If you join his online program, he has a very structured program to walk through details from setup to full swing. Online videos are always difficult because the advice is based on specific situations.

 

However, because most golfers go off how things feel (what they intend to do) instead of what’s really happening, it’s so simple to take a video that you think applies to you and in reality it doesn’t. Or if a coach was to see your swing, they would recognize that there are other things to fix before you get to the grip (as an example). 

 

I have always played with a really weak left hand grip. However, this past year, I have started having some wrist issues. As a result, I have been working on changing my grip to take pressure off my wrist. Now, I am actually going to a really strong left hand grip and a neutral right hand grip. Changing my grip, requires changing my release pattern. If I try the same release pattern after changing my grip, the ball is going to be sniping low left. Point is, the grip as discussed in this video dictates the release pattern you must employ for things to match up.

Thank you so much. You’ve been very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

[Soloman1]

More confusion and videos will abound after learning the trail hand determines the release more than the lead hand. Try a corner release with your trail hand rotated under. It’ll make you take up pickleball.

[Gamble Gamble]

After working with my pro, I kept my neutral-ish grip but made sure my wrist angles during the backswing and downswing matched my setup.  Once i did that my ball-striking improved by a considerable amount and each swing felt less taxing.  

 

I think his video titles are just using the algorithm to maximize his reach and Saguto puts out good content, especially for those that are weekend warriors who want to go from shooting 100s to 80s.  However, I would always be an advocate of in person lessons if possible.  My biggest strides in improvement came from in person lessons with homework assigned regarding that lesson.  

 

YMMV.  

[Mr_Wolfe]

Most of Tom's instruction is very surface-level stuff. His stuff will help most mid to high handicappers, no doubt. On a day where my swing feels "off", I sometimes convert to the basic principals of stack-n-tilt, although it's more a diet-version of it. I am still transferring weight, but less of it.

 

Speaking of the video titles, that's just Youtube marketing 101. Tom is no dummy.

 

Mr. Wolfe

[grantc79]

My son literally had a lesson the other day with one of the top 50 in the country James Leitz. The first thing he did was give him an incredibly strong left hand and neutral right hand grip. 

 

He had a very neutral grip and played with a very open club face which means he had to release it early and time it well which lead to a lot of inconsistency and loss of speed/lag. In 3 weeks of training with a very strong left hand and more of a shut face in his backswing he actually got to the point where he had TOO MUCH shaft lean which I have never seen anyone do in that time frame.  

 

Cantlay, Dufner, DJ, plenty of dudes use this grip. I actually started tinkering with it as well. 

 

I went from a very weak grip ALA Bryson Dechambeau to a very strong grip like DJ. My miss went from a block to a pull obviously but once I started training myself to NOT RELEASE THE FACE at impact and just keep dragging and lagging everything feels a lot simpler and my golfers elbow and arthritis issues in hands have calmed down a lot. 

I'm not saying you have to play this way, but I am saying you can play incredible golf this way. 

Edited February 24 by grantc79

[Zitlow]

Not sure about this, @MPStrat would know but it seems a strong grip with the thumb on the back of the shaft requires less shaft twisting swinging the club back. With a neutral grip, the thumb more on top the club cocks vertically above the plane requiring the left arm to roll to get the shaft back on plane. 

 

[Gamble Gamble]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:14 PM, Zitlow said:

Not sure about this, @MPStrat would know but it seems a strong grip with the thumb on the back of the shaft requires less shaft twisting swinging the club back. With a neutral grip, the thumb more on top the club cocks vertically above the plane requiring the left arm to roll to get the shaft back on plane. 

 

 

I fought a ridiculous hook from 2016 to 2018, which made me reluctant to go back to a stronger grip.  

 

fast forward to yesterday, i was playing the front nine like i never played golf before.  The conditions were horrendous, cold and windy, but my play was next level bad.  At hole 10 i realized how weak my grip was and that I was fighting a massively open club face.    

 

I made my grip slightly stronger with my left hand, 2ish knuckles showing with a matching trail hand.  It seemed easier to keep the face neutral to the path with less manipulation.  

 

I went on to have a tight eagle putt and 3 solid birdie looks (converted only 50% of them which is another story) in the final 9 holes with only the grip change mid round.  

 

So, even though i was the OP on this, i disagree with Saguto on this.  The average person cannot maintain enough wrist flexion to make a weak grip work.

 

 

 

EDIT:   i think my new favorite thing to do on this site is look at my old posts and realize how much i disagree with them.  I guess that means there's some growth there...

Edited March 11 by Gamble Gamble

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Gamble Gamble said:

 

I fought a ridiculous hook from 2016 to 2018, which made me reluctant to go back to a stronger grip.  

 

fast forward to yesterday, i was playing the front nine like i never played golf before.  The conditions were horrendous, cold and windy, but my play was next level bad.  At hole 10 i realized how weak my grip was and that I was fighting a massively open club face.    

 

I made my grip slightly stronger with my left hand, 2ish knuckles showing with a matching trail hand.  It seemed easier to keep the face neutral to the path with less manipulation.  

 

I went on to have a tight eagle putt and 3 solid birdie looks (converted only 50% of them which is another story) in the final 9 holes with only the grip change mid round.  

 

So, even though i was the OP on this, i disagree with Saguto on this.  The average person cannot maintain enough wrist flexion to make a weak grip work.

 

 

 

EDIT:   i think my new favorite thing to do on this site is look at my old posts and realize how much i disagree with them.  I guess that means there's some growth there...

The legendary Saguto normally advocates a strong grip but just disagreed with himself on that particular video to change up the content a little bit. He's a bit of an enigma in that sense.

[bladehunter]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:03 PM, virtuoso said:

 

I don’t see the change either .  What am I missing? Duffners grip looks pretty strong to my eye.  

[virtuoso]

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t see the change either .  What am I missing? Duffners grip looks pretty strong to my eye.  

Yeah, Dufner is extremely strong, but it looks even more strong because of his hand position--the left wrist looks more cupped with the hands back.

[ob1soccer]

i love when people on golfwrx criticize instructors and call them names

[MrHateCoffee]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:37 PM, getitdaily said:

Is he still trying to look like Wolfman with the hair and chops?

 

 

 

This is why I can never take him seriously. 

 

He's also always switching up his swing philosophy.

Edited March 21 by MrHateCoffee

[MrHateCoffee]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:30 AM, Soloman1 said:

More confusion and videos will abound after learning the trail hand determines the release more than the lead hand. Try a corner release with your trail hand rotated under

 

What is a "corner release"?  Can you elaborate on the trail hand controlling the release?  When I swing I don't consciously think about one hand or the other controlling it

[Soloman1]

use an iron

set up to impact position

open your trail hand so palm is flat against the grip and rotate it so it is about 45° on top of the grip

push club toward target and watch where the shaft goes.

 

do same with trail palm directly to rear of grip and watch

 

do same with tail palm 45° under the grip and watch.

Edited March 21 by Soloman1

[me05501]

Anything can be taken to extremes. 

 

It becomes a problem when your grip is so strong (or weak) that you can't keep your elbows and forearms in a sound position at address and throughout the swing. 

 

I'm glad modern instruction has generally veered away from recommending players change their grip to change their ball flight. Most teachers try to get people into a neutral, sound grip. 

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, me05501 said:

Anything can be taken to extremes. 

 

It becomes a problem when your grip is so strong (or weak) that you can't keep your elbows and forearms in a sound position at address and throughout the swing. 

 

I'm glad modern instruction has generally veered away from recommending players change their grip to change their ball flight. Most teachers try to get people into a neutral, sound grip. 

Mike Adams has a different idea.  The teaching is based on finding the best grip for the individual by testing.  A person could test out as any lead hand from strong to weak combined with any trail hand from on top to under.  I believe that what they do is closer to the truth then giving everyone the same neutral, sound grip. 

 

There is a wide variety of grips among tour pros and a lot of people believe that the pros are so talented that they can get away with bad grips.  Mike Adams will tell you that it is the opposite and the pros succeed because of their grips. 

[me05501]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Mike Adams has a different idea.  The teaching is based on finding the best grip for the individual by testing.  A person could test out as any lead hand from strong to weak combined with any trail hand from on top to under.  I believe that what they do is closer to the truth then giving everyone the same neutral, sound grip. 

 

There is a wide variety of grips among tour pros and a lot of people believe that the pros are so talented that they can get away with bad grips.  Mike Adams will tell you that it is the opposite and the pros succeed because of their grips. 

Right, which is why I wrote “extremes.”
 

I somehow doubt Mike ever recommends a grip like my buddy Brad uses where his entire trail palm is facing the sky. He doesn’t understand that his grip is preventing him from any chance at making a sound backswing. 

[PedronNiall]

On 3/11/2024 at 2:57 PM, Gamble Gamble said:

 

I fought a ridiculous hook from 2016 to 2018, which made me reluctant to go back to a stronger grip.  

 

fast forward to yesterday, i was playing the front nine like i never played golf before.  The conditions were horrendous, cold and windy, but my play was next level bad.  At hole 10 i realized how weak my grip was and that I was fighting a massively open club face.    

 

I made my grip slightly stronger with my left hand, 2ish knuckles showing with a matching trail hand.  It seemed easier to keep the face neutral to the path with less manipulation.  

 

I went on to have a tight eagle putt and 3 solid birdie looks (converted only 50% of them which is another story) in the final 9 holes with only the grip change mid round.  

 

So, even though i was the OP on this, i disagree with Saguto on this.  The average person cannot maintain enough wrist flexion to make a weak grip work.

 

 

 

EDIT:   i think my new favorite thing to do on this site is look at my old posts and realize how much i disagree with them.  I guess that means there's some growth there...

 

Discussed this in other threads, but two knuckles showing has never been a setup I've heard described as strong. Tiger considered his move to 2 1/2  showing years ago to be neutral and I believe is around 2 showing these days. 

 

Hoffman just moved back to about where you said you'd tweaked to after they looked at his old data and they discussed it as a strong grip, so maybe it's just all in the eye of the beer holder, along with where the hands actually rest adding a bit of color as well. 

 

Less than two showing has been a ready fade with most guys I've played with and can affect some things at the top of the swing as well if a player's not on top of maintaining control. The results say that's a weakening bias for most I'd think. 

 

The video above is the first time I recall seeing lateral hand position discussed in weak/neutral/strong chatter.

[MrHateCoffee]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

use an iron

set up to impact position

open your trail hand so palm is flat against the grip and rotate it so it is about 45° on top of the grip

push club toward target and watch where the shaft goes.

 

do same with trail palm directly to rear of grip and watch

 

do same with tail palm 45° under the grip and watch.

 

This is interesting.  I messed with it at the range a bit today and found a really comfortable grip.  I didn't know I could make my right hand (trail) weak or strong independent of my lead hand.

 

Is there a site I can read or a video where I can learn more about this?  This is the first I'm hearing of it.

[Nels55]

29 minutes ago, MrHateCoffee said:

 

This is interesting.  I messed with it at the range a bit today and found a really comfortable grip.  I didn't know I could make my right hand (trail) weak or strong independent of my lead hand.

 

Is there a site I can read or a video where I can learn more about this?  This is the first I'm hearing of it.

There are quite a few Youtube videos by Mike Adams / Terry Rowles that describe their system.  Here is one that has practical application in the first 5 minutes or so:

 

Here is description of the system:

 

[Forged4ever]

On 9/7/2023 at 6:36 PM, virtuoso said:

The 2nd greatest, 3rd greatest and 4th greatest titles are all on his channel too.

Along with the 5th.....

 

Though in all seriousness, his delivery is, while it may not fly at a private club or golf academy, is great for social media platforms. 

 

Some of his content is legit, some other, meh. The key is to be able to ferret out the legit from the bull💩, which the average(or above average) mid/high cap cannot do🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Another serious note is, whenever you are implementing a new swing change, be it body positions, club positions or especially a totally new swing, ie., you go from the average mid/high capper's "sway 'n swing" swing, to a swing such as Saguto teaches(which is actually how I swung prior to my strokes) or even if you're a low/scratch cap, start with slo mo swings, concentrating, focusing and VISUALIZING the perfect adaption of that change, whatever it may be, in your swing. Hogan did it(a guy wrote a whole book on it📕), Tiger did it & Jack did it, just to name a few.

 

When I revamped my swing in 2007, following my second total shoulder reconstruction and my eleventh(11) knee surgery(6 right, 5 left), I did nothing but slo mo swings for the first six weeks, then I moved to one month of 1/2 speeds intermixed with slo mo. I do not expect the average golfer to have the focus, discipline and drive to adhere to this type of protocol, though if ya just use the slo mo with visualization of your successful swing, you will greatly enhance your odds of actually imprinting a permanent positive change along with improving, instead of doing the same old way that you've always done it with the same old 💩💩 results that you've always had.

 

Just my .05 worth🪙 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by Forged4ever

[PedronNiall]

No doubt you can make a lot of money with the right clickbait titles. If an instructor truly has something figured out they're drowning in lesson sign ups at hundreds an hour and not peddling the new hot fix on social media in 99% of cases. 

 

I'll admit it's a bit murky. You have guys like Padraig on one end who just love the game and give it away for free. On the other end, there are luck sacks who happened across a few names who'd be great anyway and ride their coattails to fame & fortune despite destroying good player's swings along the way. Name attachment, claims of greatness, and money made sadly don't tell the whole story in any field, but if this guy had it figured out the way he pretends to there'd likely be a lot more proof of it in his own results or those who hitch their star to his teaching. 

 

There are just way too many guys with new videos and shorts always popping up on their feeds these days. Unfortunately for golfers, the results usually take time and it's not easy for the average player to sort the wheat from the chaff. At least as more measuring tools become common place it will be simpler to see what instructors/coaches are producing meaningful change for their students and what swing changes are actually making a difference in ball flight & consistency. Still too much smoke & mirrors on the social media front right now. 

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

No doubt you can make a lot of money with the right clickbait titles. If an instructor truly has something figured out they're drowning in lesson sign ups at hundreds an hour and not peddling the new hot fix on social media in 99% of cases. 

 

I'll admit it's a bit murky. You have guys like Padraig on one end who just love the game and give it away for free. On the other end, there are luck sacks who happened across a few names who'd be great anyway and ride their coattails to fame & fortune despite destroying good player's swings along the way. Name attachment, claims of greatness, and money made sadly don't tell the whole story in any field, but if this guy had it figured out the way he pretends to there'd likely be a lot more proof of it in his own results or those who hitch their star to his teaching. 

 

There are just way too many guys with new videos and shorts always popping up on their feeds these days. Unfortunately for golfers, the results usually take time and it's not easy for the average player to sort the wheat from the chaff. At least as more measuring tools become common place it will be simpler to see what instructors/coaches are producing meaningful change for their students and what swing changes are actually making a difference in ball flight & consistency. Still too much smoke & mirrors on the social media front right now. 

I’d go farther and say that you can just look at good old fashioned 2D video, contaminated with parallax, and clearly see that not many teachers are getting any meaningful changes in their students. Real changes are rare and priceless.

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Along with the 5th.....

 

Though in all seriousness, his delivery is, while it may not fly at a private club or golf academy, is great for social media platforms. 

 

Some of his content is legit, some other, meh. The key is to be able to ferret out the legit from the bull💩, which the average(or above average) mid/high cap cannot do🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Another serious note is, whenever you are implementing a new swing change, be it body positions, club positions or especially a totally new swing, ie., you go from the average mid/high capper's "sway 'n swing" swing, to a swing such as Saguto teaches(which is actually how I swung prior to my strokes) or even if you're a low/scratch cap, start with slo mo swings, concentrating, focusing and VISUALIZING the perfect adaption of that change, whatever it may be, in your swing. Hogan did it(a guy wrote a whole book on it📕), Tiger did it & Jack did it, just to name a few.

 

When I revamped my swing in 2007, following my second total shoulder reconstruction and my eleventh(11) knee surgery(6 right, 5 left), I did nothing but slo mo swings for the first six weeks, then I moved to one month of 1/2 speeds intermixed with slo mo. I do not expect the average golfer to have the focus, discipline and drive to adhere to this type of protocol, though if ya just use the slo mo with visualization of your successful swing, you will greatly enhance your odds of actually imprinting a permanent positive change along with improving, instead of doing the same old way that you've always done it with the same old 💩💩 results that you've always had.

 

Just my .05 worth🪙 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting comments on doing slow motion swings for a long time to make a motion change.  I have found over the years that doing a lot of slow motion drills does nothing for my full speed swing.  I seem to develop a nice slow motion drill swing that has no relation to my full speed swing.  On the other hand if I do a slow mo swing followed by a full speed swing and then look at the video to see if I am getting the result I am looking for on the full speed swing then I seem to be able to slowly make some actual progress.  

 

In another thread @MonteScheinblum mentioned that he uses 3 real swings to one drill swing quite often when he teaches and that is an excellent way to go about it.  Of course everyone is different and learns in different ways but I wonder if the 3 to 1 mix would have worked well for you a few years ago when you made the swing change?