I know my pants are too tight, what is causing EE?

[bmbsawy]

These frostguard adidas pants are wonderful, don’t care how ridiculous they look.
 

Seriousness now- I’ve had an EE pattern with a steep delivery for a couple years now since picking the game back up. Now is the time for me to address the cause. What do you see that is contributing to this delivery? I’m playing scratch golf, but as you can imagine my good days are fine, my bad days are miserable. I’m capable of carrying driver well past the 300 yard mark but I’ve never felt it was an asset due to dispersion. I believe I’ll be better suited long term to give up a bit of speed and try to shallow out this delivery to pick up some consistency and get rid of the huge miss I feel is always lurking with driver.

[Chunkitgood]

Keep you hands more down and closer to your body at impact.

 

[bmbsawy]

3 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Keep you hands more down and closer to your body at impact.

 

That is a result, not a cause

[ucmike11]

Your lead hip is moving towards the ball in the backswing and the right hip isn't getting deep enough

[bmbsawy]

49 minutes ago, ucmike11 said:

Your lead hip is moving towards the ball in the backswing and the right hip isn't getting deep enough

I think that lead hip moving toward the ball is inherent in rotation but I agree, center of gravity is shifting toward the ball in the backswing. Good eye

[DLiver]

I'm of the opinion that sometimes EE is caused by trying to make a powerful move toward the ball rather than some kind of problem earlier in the swing. I EE when I try to generate speed. When I try to maintain my posture through impact rather than slash at the ball, I don't EE. Interestingly, my CHS is similar whether I try to rip it (EE) or maintain posture. IMHO, not everything is a compensation for something else. YMMV.

[DLiver]

Oh, and those pants are too tight.

[bmbsawy]

8 minutes ago, DLiver said:

Oh, and those pants are too tight.

Lifting probs. Good ones to have

[phizzy30]

Just now, bmbsawy said:

Lifting probs. Good ones to have

Do more calf raises.  You'll rip those pants in no time. 

[Valtiel]

The origin of this type of EE is virtually always due to an improper sequencing of the lower body (late) causing you to come towards the ball:



The simplified version is that this position is nearly always the result of starting your downswing on your back leg:



Everything going on with your feet/legs is late here. Starting with the feet, we can see that at the start of your downswing you're still rolling to the outside of your back foot, which without a face on view to say for sure can still really only be one of two things; you're starting to push off your right foot to get into your front side OR you're still adding weight to your right foot. Both however are bad for the same reasons, because they are late. All pros in one form or another have already accomplished this shift in lower body pressure several stages earlier:



The result of which is the ability to use the left side for rotation instead of the right. Left side pressure + rotation (hip back) = maintaining hip depth and distance from the ball whereas right side pressure + rotation = right hip *forward*, which causes what you're seeing. The steepening of the shaft in the downswing is a response to this loss of hip depth, and the key to fixing it is to sequence your lower body correctly so as to prevent the right side coming towards the ball so much in the downswing.



Pressure favoring the right side = rotation coming towards the ball.
Pressure favoring the left side = rotation working away from the ball, or at the very least *less* towards it.

You accomplish these moves by sequencing correctly like this.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Valtiel

[Valtiel]

41 minutes ago, DLiver said:

I'm of the opinion that sometimes EE is caused by trying to make a powerful move toward the ball rather than some kind of problem earlier in the swing. I EE when I try to generate speed. When I try to maintain my posture through impact rather than slash at the ball, I don't EE. Interestingly, my CHS is similar whether I try to rip it (EE) or maintain posture. IMHO, not everything is a compensation for something else. YMMV.

And those attempted "powerful moves" when performed incorrectly like I detailed above are what cause the EE problem. Powerful move usually = using our dominate side which = progressively more "trail hip towards the ball" in the downswing. Calming that down via not trying to create as much power merely reduces the effect of an improper lower body sequence. so i'd argue the inverse of your first sentence; attempting to create power with the wrong part of the body out of sequence causes EE and IS a problem earlier in the swing, that being the lack of properly sequenced pressure shifting.

[bmbsawy]

9 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The origin of this type of EE is virtually always due to an improper sequencing of the lower body (late) causing you to come towards the ball:



The simplified version is that this position is nearly always the result of starting your downswing on your back leg:



Everything going on with your feet/legs is late here. Starting with the feet, we can see that at the start of your downswing you're still rolling to the outside of your back foot, which without a face on view to say for sure can still really only be one of two things; you're starting to push off your right foot to get into your front side OR you're still adding weight to your right foot. Both however are bad for the same reasons, because they are late. All pros in one form or another have already accomplished this shift in lower body pressure several stages earlier:



The result of which is the ability to use the left side for rotation instead of the right. Left side pressure + rotation (hip back) = maintaining hip depth and distance from the ball whereas right side pressure + rotation = right hip *forward*, which causes what you're seeing. The steepening of the shaft in the downswing is a response to this loss of hip depth, and the key to fixing it is to sequence your lower body correctly so as to prevent the right side coming towards the ball so much in the downswing.



Pressure favoring the right side = rotation coming towards the ball.
Pressure favoring the left side = rotation working away from it.

You accomplish these moves by sequencing correctly like this.

 

This is good stuff, I appreciate your time putting this together!

[getitdaily]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The origin of this type of EE is virtually always due to an improper sequencing of the lower body (late) causing you to come towards the ball:



The simplified version is that this position is nearly always the result of starting your downswing on your back leg:



Everything going on with your feet/legs is late here. Starting with the feet, we can see that at the start of your downswing you're still rolling to the outside of your back foot, which without a face on view to say for sure can still really only be one of two things; you're starting to push off your right foot to get into your front side OR you're still adding weight to your right foot. Both however are bad for the same reasons, because they are late. All pros in one form or another have already accomplished this shift in lower body pressure several stages earlier:



The result of which is the ability to use the left side for rotation instead of the right. Left side pressure + rotation (hip back) = maintaining hip depth and distance from the ball whereas right side pressure + rotation = right hip *forward*, which causes what you're seeing. The steepening of the shaft in the downswing is a response to this loss of hip depth, and the key to fixing it is to sequence your lower body correctly so as to prevent the right side coming towards the ball so much in the downswing.



Pressure favoring the right side = rotation coming towards the ball.
Pressure favoring the left side = rotation working away from the ball, or at the very least *less* towards it.

You accomplish these moves by sequencing correctly like this.

 

Yep.

 

OP...swing to p3. Then, as you go from p3 to p4, press hard into the lead leg/foot. As you swing the arms down from.p4 to p5, gently push up and back from the loaded lead side. 

[Valtiel]

Just now, getitdaily said:

...gently push up and back from the loaded lead side. 

Or in my case as someone that never did this properly as a junior; as violently as physically possible. 😆

[CSagan]

And get a black more sleek shoe. Maybe some FJ premieres in black. Ty

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Or in my case as someone that never did this properly as a junior; as violently as physically possible. 😆

Very well may have to over exaggerate it to get the motion right. 

[bmbsawy]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Very well may have to over exaggerate it to get the motion right. 

Just messed around with it briefly in the garage- definitely have to exaggerate it

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, bmbsawy said:

Just messed around with it briefly in the garage- definitely have to exaggerate it

Unlike a number of mechanical related change/drills I find that the correct pressure shift  + left side action to be a much easier thing to practice/rehearse in the garage or the living room. That doesn't mean all the work can be done there, but I find it easier to refresh the concept and the feel outside of "real" golf. The feel that works for me comes from the fact that the stiffness of not being loosened/warmed up makes it *very* apparent when i've initiated the downswing with my upper half too much, which is what happens when the lower half isn't sequenced and activated correctly. I feel the tension in my thumbs and forearms and then in my shoulders through "impact", the resulting follow-through feeling stiff and uncomfortable. When I correctly pressure my lead side however and feel like I initiate my downswing with it, almost *all* of that tension goes away and I feel like I can make full speed practice swings somewhat comfortably after basically rolling out of bed.  

The way I visualize this feel is breaking down the parts of the body like a transmission. The feet/legs and hips are 1st and 2nd gear with the torso/shoulders being 3rd, arms 4th, and hands 5th. I don't have a 6th gear because as far as i'm concerned only Tony Finau does, but that's a different lecture lol. The level of tension I feel, which usually coincides with the quality of the swing and strike, is directly tied to how well I used all the above in the correct order. The better I shift my pressure (mostly feet and legs, 1st gear) and start using my legs (mostly hips, 2nd gear), the more fluid and effortless the swing feels when all the other elements start automatically firing on top of that. When i'm lazy or tired though I feel the tension that comes from leaning on 3rd and 4th gear too much in transition and i'll start feeling knots in my back halfway through a longer range session. When i'm *smart* I catch that in time, go back to exaggerating the feel again with a shorter club, and recalibrate away from feeling like my swing is upper body driven. When i'm *dumb*, I go home and drink whiskey with a sore back wondering why I spend so much time on this stupid f****** game only to remember what I should have remembered about 90min prior which in turn makes me feel extra dumb. 

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s hard to recover doing this.

 

Hip turn maxed out early combined with an extremely late wrist set.  People don’t like to hear the sequencing in the backswing is reversed from the downswing and the club head moves first, but this is what happens when the wrists and hands are overly passive.

 

Look how much arm swing there is after the hips stop moving and look how much club movement there is at the end with no other movement. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Edited December 3, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[bmbsawy]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s hard to recover doing this.

 

Hip turn maxed out early combined with an extremely late wrist set.  People don’t like to hear the sequencing in the backswing is reversed from the downswing and the club head moves first, but this is what happens when the wrists and hands are overly passive.

 

Look how much arm swing there is after the hips stop moving and look how much club movement there is at the end with no other movement. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

I’ve worked on a more active wrist set in the past, will have to pick that back up… I have a hunch that getting my weight back over to my lead side before transition combined with ^ will help clean up the excessive length at the top of the swing

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, bmbsawy said:

I’ve worked on a more active wrist set in the past, will have to pick that back up… I have a hunch that getting my weight back over to my lead side before transition combined with ^ will help clean up the excessive length at the top of the swing

Yes

[ALIF]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:31 PM, Valtiel said:

The origin of this type of EE is virtually always due to an improper sequencing of the lower body (late) causing you to come towards the ball:



The simplified version is that this position is nearly always the result of starting your downswing on your back leg:



Everything going on with your feet/legs is late here. Starting with the feet, we can see that at the start of your downswing you're still rolling to the outside of your back foot, which without a face on view to say for sure can still really only be one of two things; you're starting to push off your right foot to get into your front side OR you're still adding weight to your right foot. Both however are bad for the same reasons, because they are late. All pros in one form or another have already accomplished this shift in lower body pressure several stages earlier:



The result of which is the ability to use the left side for rotation instead of the right. Left side pressure + rotation (hip back) = maintaining hip depth and distance from the ball whereas right side pressure + rotation = right hip *forward*, which causes what you're seeing. The steepening of the shaft in the downswing is a response to this loss of hip depth, and the key to fixing it is to sequence your lower body correctly so as to prevent the right side coming towards the ball so much in the downswing.



Pressure favoring the right side = rotation coming towards the ball.
Pressure favoring the left side = rotation working away from the ball, or at the very least *less* towards it.

You accomplish these moves by sequencing correctly like this.

 

Seriously, world class explanation! You never cease to amaze me!

[iacas]

The camera moves a bit, but I'm with those who said it starts in the backswing:

 

 

The camera moves in such a way that it appears to keep your butt on the wall, when in reality it's off it slightly while your left hip pushed through. Your EE is in the backswing.

 

DJ does it to an extreme, but compare:

 

[bmbsawy]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

The camera moves a bit, but I'm with those who said it starts in the backswing:

 

 

The camera moves in such a way that it appears to keep your butt on the wall, when in reality it's off it slightly while your left hip pushed through. Your EE is in the backswing.

 

DJ does it to an extreme, but compare:

 

Agreed- likely been gradually moving further from the ball in a subconscious effort to create space in the hitting zone due to hanging back in transition causing the EE. Fixing that move will allow me to start with my hips and COG closer to the ball at address and I will rotate into the correct position…

 

I think lol

[tthomasgolfer605]

I think the steepness/EE is a reaction to laying the club off. Some people can get away with it, but everyone is different. If you 'felt' like it crosses the line you might get a bit more shallow. You can also try to feel the forearms rotate clockwise in transition. 

[Zitlow]

The right arm coming under the left arm instead of over the right arm. 

 

[Scottbox]

Actually sort of jealous at the fit of those pants. When I wear pants, I look like a gremlin in Jncos.

[Mr_Wolfe]

The pants are fine. I am more worried about thin mat over the bricks you are hitting off of.

 

Mr. Wolfe

[chigolfer1]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:00 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s hard to recover doing this.

 

Hip turn maxed out early combined with an extremely late wrist set.  People don’t like to hear the sequencing in the backswing is reversed from the downswing and the club head moves first, but this is what happens when the wrists and hands are overly passive.

 

Look how much arm swing there is after the hips stop moving and look how much club movement there is at the end with no other movement. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

No sequencing .mov 5.96 MB · 22 downloads

 

This is really interesting and never seen it addressed really with the hips moving too early while you are slow with the wrists/hands.

[byoshio82]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:29 PM, bmbsawy said:

These frostguard adidas pants are wonderful, don’t care how ridiculous they look.
 

Seriousness now- I’ve had an EE pattern with a steep delivery for a couple years now since picking the game back up. Now is the time for me to address the cause. What do you see that is contributing to this delivery? I’m playing scratch golf, but as you can imagine my good days are fine, my bad days are miserable. I’m capable of carrying driver well past the 300 yard mark but I’ve never felt it was an asset due to dispersion. I believe I’ll be better suited long term to give up a bit of speed and try to shallow out this delivery to pick up some consistency and get rid of the huge miss I feel is always lurking with driver.

IMG_2567.mov

Pants for sure! Not enough room to turn!lol! Could try a swing aid like the planemate or the inflatable ball to help sync everything up. If all else fails lift that left heel in the backswing and squish the bug to start the downswing. I struggle with this myself.

 

Mike Malaska has some good videos on this but to me personally this just feels so odd to make this move and hard to duplicate on course or at full speed. My goal for the 24 season is solely to focus on strike location. It's incosistent and I think that will help me figure out what works and what doesn't naturally with foot powder spray as the indicator. Interested to see what others say has helped them.