Ball that spins more off the irons but not the driver

[Tumadre1337]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:43 AM, MongoSmash said:

Kirkland ball

Those are definitely spinny boys. 

[grochol17]

12 hours ago, davbrucas said:

It’s the shaft in that head along with a slower swing speed. You’re probably not compressing the ball much either. Use the AVX. Best ball for average/slightly above average swing speeds imo. I’m a sweeper and don’t spin my irons much but my ‘23 p790 7i spins around 6000rpm. I use the AVX. 
 

Changing that LZ shaft to something softer will help as well. 

 

This is the wrong way to go.  The AVX is designed to be a low spin, low trajectory ball.  The OP is playing the Pro V1x, which is a much higher flight and higher spin ball, but complaining about not having enough spin or (I assume) stopping power on the greens.  Switching to the AVX would make things considerably worse for the OP.

Edited April 1 by grochol17

[davbrucas]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's a a bit outdated.   I thought people had learned by now how meaningless that expression really is.

Ok. If his swing does not have a sufficiently negative angle of attack (along with adequate CHS and loft) to impart spin then he will see those results. “Compressing the ball” was an easier way to state it. 

[davbrucas]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Edited April 1 by davbrucas
DP

[Stuart_G]

4 hours ago, davbrucas said:

Ok. If his swing does not have a sufficiently negative angle of attack (along with adequate CHS and loft) to impart spin then he will see those results. “Compressing the ball” was an easier way to state it. 

 

Not true.  Spin is much more about the dynamic loft delivered (and club head speed).   AoA has a small effect - but it's not really all that much.  It's far from a necessary requirement to be able to generate sufficient or reasonable spin.  Nor does a negative AoA have much effect on how much the ball is compressed - that's also largely dynamic loft (and club head speed).    But that's really only true when hitting off of grass.   When hitting off of some types of mats it's more commonly the opposite.  The steeper the AoA, the more spin will be lost because the harder surface restricts the downward motion of the club at impact which normally would help add spin.

Edited April 1 by Stuart_G

[driveandputtmachine]

double post

Edited April 1 by driveandputtmachine

[driveandputtmachine]

On 3/27/2024 at 5:42 AM, meh said:

Love everything about the t150 but spin them too low. Like 4500 for a seven iron. This is with the lz 6.0 shaft. What iron shaft will help and what ball change will add spin but not too much to the driver?

4500 for a 7 iron?  Ugh.  A few things here, assuming you want equipment modifications/changes over swing changes.

 

A. Some mats I have seen can pull off 1000-1500 RPM of spin.  So getting a grass read number is imperative if possible or try https://www.amazon.com/Golf-Simulator-Tees-Practice-Training/dp/B0C9V2VVTJ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2Y3OZV65KSB34&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ObUYzqjyhe0tpTVAoNDKLuwYit0dBa-sYVgMeu6xkz65kMdwp9JnlIjDHF5RGi2oc8t4biOtPzmp83xOzuow1I4_s0JoBdwgXQzo8yxjMNAtdxoEO9qJDwBG2OCssL_aqiaiGUvpnO9QzbPRh_u_PiUOZNcTw6Z8j322UOI9dORowBp5cTLPENeIz7HsmFMzFTzrcriKYcayJA-XeiH7lW7foIEi_BjdhjvVSBlGrmYUqkIoJvu3ZHpCWGpw0NpoU7vIehsqQmCuc5L0oAmVt3ai7pKBoWSCsGrxSbMB1zg.Izud0yGjuXgf5JefmIx07aUhKAFj0bES8G5D_hWz4K8&dib_tag=se&keywords=golf%2Bmat%2Btees&qid=1711980390&sprefix=golf%2Bmat%2Btees%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

cut them down a bit with scissors if needed for the short ones.  Now you can get more realistic numbers for your irons.

B.  Loft.  Add loft you your irons this is an easy fix if you have access to a machine, if you do not then this becomes a big expense.  I bought a bending machine from Ebay about ten years ago and it has been the best golf related purchase I have ever made.

C. Golf ball - Look at the Z Star Diamond, when I played the ZX7 and ZX5 combo set my spin hovered a little low of what I deemed best for me, the courses I play and my descent angle.  This ball helped, but again it's not adding 1000 RPM.  I think with the 7 iron it was good for about 4-500.

D. Shaft - This is last because if you are making solid contact and have good face control changing a shaft can be the biggest rabbit hole you go down and might not ever make it back.  

 

In essence try tees on the mat, get real spin numbers.  Then let's say you are 5500 instead of 4500 and you need more spin, add a degree of loft across the set, then if that only gets you to around 5700-5800 depending on your course you may be fine.  I prefer spin of around 6300 with my 7 iron with my descent angle, you may need less or more.  Then try the golf ball, or get real spin and then try a sleeve of the diamond or some other ball that you find that spins more with irons, then do the loft.  The order is up to you, other than getting good spin readings first.

 

The absolute last thing would be shafts, and then I would rather play 2 degrees less loft, and a different ball than even thinking about the shaft rabbit hole.

[North Butte]

21 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not true.  Spin is much more about the dynamic loft delivered (and club head speed).   AoA has a small effect - but it's not really all that much.  It's far from a necessary requirement to be able to generate sufficient or reasonable spin.  Nor does a negative AoA have any effect on how much the ball is compressed - that's all dynamic loft (and club head speed).    But that's really only true when hitting off of grass.   When hitting off of some types of mats it's more commonly the opposite.  The steeper the AoA, the more spin will be lost because the harder surface restricts the downward motion of the club at impact which normally would help add spin.

Preach it, brother!

[meh]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not true.  Spin is much more about the dynamic loft delivered (and club head speed).   AoA has a small effect - but it's not really all that much.  It's far from a necessary requirement to be able to generate sufficient or reasonable spin.  Nor does a negative AoA have much effect on how much the ball is compressed - that's also largely dynamic loft (and club head speed).    But that's really only true when hitting off of grass.   When hitting off of some types of mats it's more commonly the opposite.  The steeper the AoA, the more spin will be lost because the harder surface restricts the downward motion of the club at impact which normally would help add spin.

Thanks for the response. Will definitely get out and hit some balls off grass and see what the actual results are. I think the T150 will still be low as the t100 were from memory 1000 rpm higher.

[MotherTeresa10]

If your mat takes regular tees, I just use the short iron tee evolve golf makes and it works great.

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, meh said:

Thanks for the response. Will definitely get out and hit some balls off grass and see what the actual results are. I think the T150 will still be low as the t100 were from memory 1000 rpm higher.

 

I would expect the 150's to have less spin for no other reason than the differences in loft.   Maybe not the full 1000 rpm that you saw off the mat but somewhere around 500 rpm would be around what I'd normally expect (assuming you're comparing with the same shaft and swing weight).

 

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

14 hours ago, meh said:

Thanks for the response. Will definitely get out and hit some balls off grass and see what the actual results are. I think the T150 will still be low as the t100 were from memory 1000 rpm higher.

Axioms were specifically designed to fix this problem of sets with stronger lofts.  add 3-500 rpm on average

[NRJyzr]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:25 AM, tatertot said:

How does the ball know what club it's being hit with?

 

There is no 7 iron

 

🤔😁

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

Axioms were specifically designed to fix this problem of sets with stronger lofts.  add 3-500 rpm on average

 

Maybe - but it only works if you have a really late release.    The earlier the release, the less the shaft can add to the dynamic loft no matter how it might have been designed.

 

And that's also assuming the softer feel of a higher launching shaft doesn't screw up the swing in some way.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Nothing wrong with recommending different shafts and it never hurts to experiment and try out different shafts - just make sure the expectations are realistic going into the process and understand that there can be negative side effects.

 

Personally, I think shafts are the worst and least reliable way to manage launch and spin.  Better off just bending the lofts.   But that doesn't mean it might not work in some cases or for some people..

 

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Maybe - but it only works if you have a really late release.    The earlier the release, the less the shaft can add to the dynamic loft no matter how it might have been designed.

 

And that's also assuming the softer feel of a higher launching shaft doesn't screw up the swing in some way.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Nothing wrong with recommending different shafts and it never hurts to experiment and try out different shafts - just make sure the expectations are realistic going into the process and understand that there can be negative side effects.

 

Personally, I think shafts are the worst and least reliable way to manage launch and spin.  Better off just bending the lofts.   But that doesn't mean it might not work in some cases or for some people..

 

Axioms definitely do not launch high or feel soft for me or anyone else I know, so I'm not sure what you mean.  Maybe in lower weights as I have no experience with the 75's, but 105 and 125 are incredibly stout/stable compared to steel per flex.  Per Fujikura's fitter in one of the videos they did, the shaft was designed specifically to fix the low spin issue and angle of descent issue caused by these super hot, loft jacked irons.  What makes them so special is that they do this while still having tighter groupings than any other shaft ever tested.  They are kind of a magic wand, I suggest you go do some experimenting with them.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

You already play one of the spinnier balls off the irons, check the numbers off grass and see how the ball reacts on course.

[dmeeksDC]

I would not mess with changing shafts. Lot of effort and/or cost and it doesn’t affect spin like changing the loft of the irons does. I would say between adjusting the lofts and changing golf balls, you can easily dial this in. But I would see how the clubs play on the golf course before I would change anything. Much more real to assess stopping power. You very well could solve it with a 1 degree loft change and a different ball. 

[gripandrip]

On 3/27/2024 at 11:21 PM, ThunderBuzzworth said:

I’ve had multiple reliable sources tell me the Srixon Z Star Diamond fits this description 

This for me, but I hit up on driver about 2-3 degrees. You're mileage may vary off the driver depending on your angle of attack.  Ball has been very good for me on the driver and great around the greens.

 

Just for reference. I play Srixon Z745 irons with SF95S. In the driver I play a Ventus 6S.

Edited April 3 by gripandrip

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

Axioms definitely do not launch high or feel soft for me or anyone else I know, so I'm not sure what you mean.

 

Never tried them so might have been making an assumption based on your claim.

 

A shaft that adds launch and/or spin must be more flexible and softer.  That's the only possible way a shaft can directly add launch and spin - by having more forward bend at impact and increasing the dynamic loft delivered.   There is no way a shaft can increase or "fix" low spin without also increasing launch.  The physics of how the shaft works during the swing makes that impossible.  Anything else they tell you is just marketing BS.

 

Now, for certain people, certain changes in feel can cause a wide range of changes to the swing itself - and therefore the results.  So when it comes to actual experience, anything is possible.  And that's assuming that there were no other changes to the club they tested or got and all the other specs were a perfect match (exact same model head, same swing weight, same playing length, etc...).     But those types of effects are completely subjective and will be very inconsistent and very different between different individuals.  So those types of changes are not really characteristics of the shaft, they are characteristics of the individual's swing. 

 

Edited April 3 by Stuart_G

[North Butte]

53 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Never tried them so might have been making an assumption based on your claim.

 

A shaft that adds launch and/or spin must be more flexible and softer.  That's the only possible way a shaft can directly add launch and spin - by having more forward bend at impact and increasing the dynamic loft delivered.   There is no way a shaft can increase or "fix" low spin without also increasing launch.  The physics of how the shaft works during the swing makes that impossible.  Anything else they tell you is just marketing BS.

 

Now, for certain people, certain changes in feel can cause a wide range of changes to the swing itself - and therefore the results.  So when it comes to actual experience, anything is possible.  And that's assuming that there were no other changes to the club they tested or got and all the other specs were a perfect match (exact same model head, same swing weight, same playing length, etc...).     But those types of effects are completely subjective and will be very inconsistent and very different between different individuals.  So those types of changes are not really characteristics of the shaft, they are characteristics of the individual's swing. 

 

There's a certain irony in how many people eschew lessons or swing changes in favor of an equipment fix to things like lack or spin or problematic shot shape. Then they end up trying a bunch of shafts, more or less at random, until they end up finding a shaft whose feel induces a change in their swing that help the problem. 

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, North Butte said:

There's a certain irony in how many people eschew lessons or swing changes in favor of an equipment fix to things like lack or spin or problematic shot shape. Then they end up trying a bunch of shafts, more or less at random, until they end up finding a shaft whose feel induces a change in their swing that help the problem. 

 

At least until that new feel becomes the normal feel and the old (bad) habits start to creep back in - starting the process all over again 😁

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

At least until that new feel becomes the normal feel and the old (bad) habits start to creep back in - starting the process all over again 😁

OK, now you're hitting a little too close to home for me!

 

 

Edited April 3 by North Butte

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Never tried them so might have been making an assumption based on your claim.

 

A shaft that adds launch and/or spin must be more flexible and softer.  That's the only possible way a shaft can directly add launch and spin - by having more forward bend at impact and increasing the dynamic loft delivered.   There is no way a shaft can increase or "fix" low spin without also increasing launch.  The physics of how the shaft works during the swing makes that impossible.  Anything else they tell you is just marketing BS.

 

Now, for certain people, certain changes in feel can cause a wide range of changes to the swing itself - and therefore the results.  So when it comes to actual experience, anything is possible.  And that's assuming that there were no other changes to the club they tested or got and all the other specs were a perfect match (exact same model head, same swing weight, same playing length, etc...).     But those types of effects are completely subjective and will be very inconsistent and very different between different individuals.  So those types of changes are not really characteristics of the shaft, they are characteristics of the individual's swing. 

 

Sounds to me like you understand physics and golf shaft design/construction/performance better than the current best in the world, or at least you think you do. Maybe you should dump your life savings into starting your own shaft company? Or...Why don't you go to a golf store that has demos and QC Quad/Trackman and try for yourself. I am not sure why others on here are not chiming in, but many of us have seen the numbers in the fittings, and there is nothing stopping you from learning what we learned as well except you want to argue over something you admit not having experience with.  You could even do this from home by watching fittings on YouTube that cover this exact topic.  See, I am into the data not marketing hype. You keep running in directions that have nothing to do with my posts and are wasting everyone that reads this threads time. I can't imagine why you or anyone else would argue about something they have no experience with unless they were just simply trying to start trouble but here you are.

 

 

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

On 4/3/2024 at 6:32 AM, North Butte said:

There's a certain irony in how many people eschew lessons or swing changes in favor of an equipment fix to things like lack or spin or problematic shot shape. Then they end up trying a bunch of shafts, more or less at random, until they end up finding a shaft whose feel induces a change in their swing that help the problem. 

.

Edited April 4 by Golfinfloridaafter40

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

Sounds to me like you understand physics and golf shaft design/construction/performance better than the current best in the world

 

No, I actually learned from the actual best in the world - people like Tom Wishon as well as other numerous scientists and engineers (and even a few proper master fitters) who have taken the time and effort to do proper scientific studies and published their research in well established journals.  And that's not even taking into consideration my own engineering degrees.    I have no idea who you might think are "the best" are but if youtube is your source for that or any data for that matter, you're looking in the wrong place.

 

Just because I haven't tried one specific shaft doesn't mean I have no experience.  I have my own Flightscope and have spent plenty of time with numerous shafts.  One more's not going to change anything about my understanding.   And no one persons experience is statistically significant anyways - so anyone who only relies on their own personal experience is never going to see the big picture clearly.

 

If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.  It doesn't bother me in the least.  And if it makes you feel better to think of this as an argument - that doesn't bother me either.   Whether you want to agree with it or not, my post is relevant to the topic, you're free to use it or ignore it as you see fit.

 

Edited April 3 by Stuart_G

[mizuno player]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

At least until that new feel becomes the normal feel and the old (bad) habits start to creep back in - starting the process all over again 😁

Not fair Stuart....😁.  This is me in a nut shell. I have elbow and neck injuries. This has caused me to change my swing and grip. Slowly so I didn't notice. I thought. Ok. I need a lighter graphite shaft. Went down that rabbit hole and it made all my issues worse. A light shaft just does not work for me. My face control is awful with lighter shafts and bigger headed irons.  Causing lots of spin, loss of distance and accuracy. 

 

My driver swing remained good so I focused on irons and shafts in the irons. 

 

Moral of my story and others perhaps. Start with the fundamentals first before changing equipment over and over to fix something that could be really simple. Like the GRIP!!!! 

Edited April 3 by mizuno player
Spelling. Still missed im sure

[North Butte]

8 hours ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

First of all, he may not need a lesson, we don't know one way or another because there are too many variables. Secondly, there is no randomness to what I suggested at all! I shared extremely helpful information that I and so many others have seen backed up with data.  You can not like it all you want to, but it does not make my advice untrue

He may indeed not need lessons. Just like he may not need new shafts.

 

The heart wants what the heart wants, need doesn't always win.