Hit into at private club

[stage1350]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1839503' date='Jul 23 2009, 05:03 PM']Sorry if speaking from life experience, NOT ideals or conjecture annoys some people; not everybody spends their lifetime the way some of you have. I grew up in a generation where actual experience, accomplishment and respectful behavior holds far greater value then rude behavior and conjecture.[/quote]

Sorry. I know plenty of people from "your generation" and they aren't arrogant, judgmental individuals like you are.

You sit there telling people they aren't good enough for their clubs based on their handicap without ever seeing their swing. This is after you wax poetically about your V groove wedges.

You accuse the majority of golfers of not following the rules when you have no clue how they behave on the course. Nice stereotype.

You talk about money and accomplishments and your collection of expensive and exotic goods. The people that I know that are truly wealthy all have one thing in common: they don't talk about money. It's the people that want to be accepted that pull bush league stuff like that, as if it's going to lend you credibility.

You have a "can you top this?" attitude in every thread you post. Someone wants to talk about their accomplishment and you have to try and one-up them. Inferiority complex?

For someone that puts value in respectful behavior, you are one of the most disrespectful people when you post.

[deepballer]

[quote name='roll - gybe' post='1834017' date='Jul 21 2009, 01:32 PM']Ok, I'm a guest. Playing with a member - someone I am close to (not a business relationship). There is another guest with us - also in the same situation.

On an uphill par 5, I am left with 85 yards after scrambling back from an ugly tee shot. I am only a few strokes over par, haven't been out of place all day, and have yet to have the guys behind me within range. (In fact the first I heard of them was the previous hole. As I was putting for birdie on a par 4 one left the brake off on the tee box and beep beep beep the cart actually got away from him. First time I have seen that...)

I hit my 85 yard shot and I hear wizz, clunk. A ball lands 3 feet in front of me. The guy was in the fairway with a wood (not a 7i) in his hand.

I don't think he intended to plug me. However, I do think his brain was in outer space. I didn't take offense, but I did think I was on the wrong end of a dangerous situation.

...so I reached down and teed his ball up...

Thought I would just make him aware of his surroundings.

When he got up there he had a laugh. He said something like, "how could my ball land on a tee, what are the odds?"

I realized that he was really in outer space, so I pointed to myself while I stood on the next tee. I mean, wake up man. I calmly said "You almost hit me, I was right where you are standing."

He apologized, and I thought I had found a harmless way to wake the guy up. I mean, hitting a 3 wood on a par 5 when people aren't even on the green and not knowing where the ball landed is pretty damn spacy...

So the other guest with me, looks at me and says something about which I didn't even think. The guy is a member.

Oh my god.

He is a member. Of course, he should plug all the non-members.

But then, my friend pointed out that my behavior may reflect poorly on our host at this nice club. True enough. So I apologized to our host. He was nice and told me that if he were still a young man like me, there would have been hell to pay.

Thoughts?[/quote]

Too much course rage these days!
The guy almost hit you, [b]ALMOST[/b][i][/i], no harm, no foul.
Honestly, you were a guest at that course and should act accordingly. If anybody should act on the situation it should be the hosting member. You have no right to get confrontational with anybody, no matter what. You have no idea who the guy was or how he would respond to your remarks.
imagine how that looks on your hosts behalf after bringing guests to the course who cannot control themselves.
If you felt in harms way you should leave, repectively. No one is forcing you out there to try to enjoy yourself.
Had you acted like a mature gentlemen, you could have been introduced at the 19th hole and perhaps the guy would offer you a drink for his apologies. It very well coulda been accidental. We all have at one time or another did something on the course by accident. It is a golf course!
Like I said, no harm, no foul. If the ball landed within 3ft. of you it would've lost all velocity and probably not even leave a mark had it hit you.
The other member in your group only addressed you after he felt you were not letting the "little" matter go. He's not willing to sit there and be an involved member of what may be the courses first UFC match. You made your point when you put the ball on the tee and should've left well alone at that time.

[Sawgrass]

I'd like to take another crack at communicating about the original post.

My point doesn't have anything to do with whether the offending golfer used a seven iron or a three wood. It doesn't have anything to do with whether the course was public or private. It doesn't have anything to do with whether the offending golfer was a member or a grounds keeper on his day off.

The guy who hit near Roll - Gybe may have made an innocent mistake. Let's presume that it was a mistake for a minute. So you have "The Guy" violatiing Roll -Bybe's space by mistake. Then you have Roll - Gybe intentionally messing with The Guy's ball and lie. The Guy: innocent mistake. Roll - Gybe: intentional affront. This intentional affront is not gracious behavior, and a not suitable response in reaction to an innocent mistake. Forgiveness is the suitable response. This is why Roll -
Gybe's fellow player feared that Roll - Gybe may have made a social error reflecting on the person who invited Roll - Gybe to play at his club. I'll also add that Roll - Gybe's host was gracious in telling Roll - Gybe after the fact that Roll - Gybe's actions were not offensive to him. The die had been cast, and gracious behavior was all that was left for the host.

Roll - Gybe, if you ever accidentally hit near me, I will graciously forgive you, and never think of it again. I won't try to teach you a lesson. If you ever accidentally actually hit me, I'll suffer, but I won't hold it against your character. Or judge you harshly based on your youth.

[Zach Heusser]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1834235' date='Jul 21 2009, 02:53 PM']Thank your friend. Whether you are in the right or not, creating problems when you are guest at another member's club is a sure fire way to never be invited back.[/quote]
+1 IMO you were way out of line. You should have let the member of the club who invited you handle the situation.

[Pepperturbo]

This thread brings to mind all the folks lining the galleries ropes of pro tournaments. They willingly accept the possibility of being struck by a ball flying at tour speed. That’s got a hurt far more then average Joe’s. I can’t count the times I’ve seen a tight fairway lined with folks looking back at the Pro and wonder what if he shanks one or something?

The gallery and tour players alike don't really concern themselves with that possibility, until it happens. To be fair we can’t over look how the tour player feels; it’s got to be similar to what an amateur would feel in the same circumstances; terrible. However, the tour player has one advantage; he gives a signed glove or ball to the victim.

Has anyone ever noticed what the victim usually does afterward, presuming they are conscious. They do the same thing skiers, race car drivers and most others athletes do after experiencing an event and lived through it; relish the new found attention. After the Dodge Downhill’s I’ve seen skiers head to the bar on crutches and wheelchairs just for attention that comes from an accident.

I see what appears to be confusion. Some people seem to think some form of reaction is appropriate when the ball lands within a self-defined circle of influence... I wonder if those same people would behave like gallery folks when a touring pros ball landed near where they (generic person) were standing. Should they tee it up as a reminder; maybe make hand jesters and or holler back at the pro presuming he wasn’t paying attention or did it on purpose.

We all know touring pro’s have far greater accuracy with their clubs then the average golfer does, yet they hit into galleries all the time. Another thought comes to mind; secretly do you all think tour pros hope their ball bounces off someone into a good lie (course not hurting the victim much). I wonder if some amateurs have that same optimism; would a signed free glove or ball help. How about if the ball lands within twenty feet of someone they get a free tee; would that help.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1840990' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:45 PM']This thread brings to mind all the folks lining the galleries ropes of pro tournaments. They willingly accept the possibility of being struck by a ball flying at tour speed. That’s got a hurt far more then average Joe’s. I can’t count the times I’ve seen a tight fairway lined with folks looking back at the Pro and wonder what if he shanks one or something?

The gallery and tour players alike don't really concern themselves with that possibility, until it happens. To be fair we can’t over look how the tour player feels; it’s got to be similar to what an amateur would feel in the same circumstances; terrible. However, the tour player has one advantage; he gives a signed glove or ball to the victim.

Has anyone ever noticed what the victim usually does afterward, presuming they are conscious. They do the same thing skiers, race car drivers and most others athletes do after experiencing an event and lived through it; relish the new found attention. After the Dodge Downhill’s I’ve seen skiers head to the bar on crutches and wheelchairs just for attention that comes from an accident.

I see what appears to be confusion. Some people seem to think some form of reaction is appropriate when the ball lands within a self-defined circle of influence... I wonder if those same people would behave like gallery folks when a touring pros ball landed near where they (generic person) were standing. Should they tee it up as a reminder; maybe make hand jesters and or holler back at the pro presuming he wasn’t paying attention or did it on purpose.

We all know touring pro’s have far greater accuracy with their clubs then the average golfer does, yet they hit into galleries all the time. Another thought comes to mind; secretly do you all think tour pros hope their ball bounces off someone into a good lie (course not hurting the victim much). I wonder if some amateurs have that same optimism; would a signed free glove or ball help. How about if the ball lands within twenty feet of someone they get a free tee; would that help.[/quote]

What a ridiculous analogy.

[roll - gybe]

Points taken. Still going to disagree that nothing wrong happens until someone gets hit.

It's not the outcome that the person hitting the ball has control over, it is the process. There was a mistake made in the other golfer's process, but it was a dangerous mistake in my view. I never viewed the situation as my space vs your space if we want to really delve into intent and interpretations. Please keep in mind that the ball flew within 3 feet of my head. It's not a territorial situation where a ball fell 10 yards away.

Also, it did scare the crap out of me if you want to continue to color the situation. I have already admitted that adrenaline was pumping. I am absolutely sure that did affect my decision making.

As far as innocent mistakes go, Sawgrass, I respectfully disagree. I think this was a terrible error in judgement by the other player. Hitting a long club into a group on a par five that has not reached the green from a reachable distance is something that should never happen. Definitely not on this hole where I was in clear view perhaps 170 yards away, somewhat uphil.

I was put in immediate hazard by the other golfer's decision. Have I ever done somthing like this? No. I have made many mistakes, but not one this severe. I sure have hit a ball longer than I expected, but not from par-three distance. There is no way I would pull out a 3/5 wood and have a go with a group in front of me, yet to reach the green on a par 5. I view the golfer as having made a mistake rather than taking malicious action. However, I view that mistake as a significant mistake, requiring intervention.

Notice I am not really trying to defend myself (execept where the situation has been colored with presumptions), I am trying to foster discussion. I think it is interesting to see that there are two pretty defined camps on this one. I think we have defined the major philosophies in play. I think I have learned a little something from everyone. Clearly the decision will still be mine to make should similar every happen in the future.

Thanks, guys.

[MrJones]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1840990' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:45 AM']This thread brings to mind all the folks lining the galleries ropes of pro tournaments. They willingly accept the possibility of being struck by a ball flying at tour speed. That’s got a hurt far more then average Joe’s. I can’t count the times I’ve seen a tight fairway lined with folks looking back at the Pro and wonder what if he shanks one or something?

The gallery and tour players alike don't really concern themselves with that possibility, until it happens. To be fair we can’t over look how the tour player feels; it’s got to be similar to what an amateur would feel in the same circumstances; terrible. However, the tour player has one advantage; he gives a signed glove or ball to the victim.

Has anyone ever noticed what the victim usually does afterward, presuming they are conscious. They do the same thing skiers, race car drivers and most others athletes do after experiencing an event and lived through it; relish the new found attention. After the Dodge Downhill’s I’ve seen skiers head to the bar on crutches and wheelchairs just for attention that comes from an accident.

I see what appears to be confusion. Some people seem to think some form of reaction is appropriate when the ball lands within a self-defined circle of influence... I wonder if those same people would behave like gallery folks when a touring pros ball landed near where they (generic person) were standing. Should they tee it up as a reminder; maybe make hand jesters and or holler back at the pro presuming he wasn’t paying attention or did it on purpose.

We all know touring pro’s have far greater accuracy with their clubs then the average golfer does, yet they hit into galleries all the time. Another thought comes to mind; secretly do you all think tour pros hope their ball bounces off someone into a good lie (course not hurting the victim much). I wonder if some amateurs have that same optimism; would a signed free glove or ball help. How about if the ball lands within twenty feet of someone they get a free tee; would that help.[/quote]

Those people PAY to watch the pros hit those balls. They understand that there is a chance they might get hit going into it.

If a person hits into me, I'm not as worried about being hit. I'm upset with that person for not showing the proper courtesy to me as a golfer. If you hit into someone, you're at fault. You might hit a 100 balls at a person and never hit them. But there's always a chance and for you to take that chance shows a complete lack of respect or concern for that person.

[Pepperturbo]

I understand your concern, there's nothing inherently wrong with that; it's what happened afterward that created two camps with different ideas as to how certain events are dealt with at a private club.

I could be wrong but seems like persons that deal with it one way don't appear to be members or haven’t frequented upscale courses, and it could be don't respect protocols of upscale clubs. Those in the opposing camp are, or have frequented upscale clubs so knowingly respect the different manner in which to resolve differences. There might also be an argument made different lifestyles and locations have something to do with the separation of camps; don’t know.

Still anybody with basic social skills and ability to reason knows when they make a mistake and responds accordingly. The guy hitting into you obviously had an error in judgment. If my life was threatened on purpose, my reaction would undoubtedly be strong but still measured according to my environment; that’s just me.

To be fair to your situation a few months back on public course I reacted after a ball landed a few feet from my wife standing near the green on a par 5. The guy hit not thinking he could make the green from 240yds. I walked half way back towards the person and assertively said “pay attention you almost hit my wife”; his apology was sincerely, and we got on with our game with no further incidents.

Again I only restate this as a reference point… Having been on the boards of two clubs, and contributed to the bylaws which include behaviors, and leadership, I have a clear sense how my clubs and those I have frequented handle confrontations. At best if the above situation happened to my wife or a guest I'd be the one to bring it to the attention of the other member in the proper way. The BOD never wanted direct confrontations if they could be helped. I wouldn't be nearly as aggressive as I was when it happened on a public course. I don’t worry about myself nearly as much as family.

Anyways, I now get the sense from your post you’re aware, and that’s good.

[Pepperturbo]

- I hoped some of you would see some humor in the pros vs. personal comparison; especially average golfer signing a glove... I had this hilarious vision. Let’s lighten up...

[Mainlinegolfer]

[quote name='roll - gybe' post='1841050' date='Jul 24 2009, 01:11 PM']Points taken. Still going to disagree that nothing wrong happens until someone gets hit.

It's not the outcome that the person hitting the ball has control over, it is the process. There was a mistake made in the other golfer's process, but it was a dangerous mistake in my view. I never viewed the situation as my space vs your space if we want to really delve into intent and interpretations. Please keep in mind that the ball flew within 3 feet of my head. It's not a territorial situation where a ball fell 10 yards away.

Also, it did scare the crap out of me if you want to continue to color the situation. I have already admitted that adrenaline was pumping. I am absolutely sure that did affect my decision making.

As far as innocent mistakes go, Sawgrass, I respectfully disagree. I think this was a terrible error in judgement by the other player. Hitting a long club into a group on a par five that has not reached the green from a reachable distance is something that should never happen. Definitely not on this hole where I was in clear view perhaps 170 yards away, somewhat uphil.

I was put in immediate hazard by the other golfer's decision. Have I ever done somthing like this? No. I have made many mistakes, but not one this severe. I sure have hit a ball longer than I expected, but not from par-three distance. There is no way I would pull out a 3/5 wood and have a go with a group in front of me, yet to reach the green on a par 5. I view the golfer as having made a mistake rather than taking malicious action. However, I view that mistake as a significant mistake, requiring intervention.

Notice I am not really trying to defend myself (execept where the situation has been colored with presumptions), I am trying to foster discussion. I think it is interesting to see that there are two pretty defined camps on this one. I think we have defined the major philosophies in play. I think I have learned a little something from everyone. Clearly the decision will still be mine to make should similar every happen in the future.

Thanks, guys.[/quote]

I'm going to keep this short and simple. I don't think you really "wanted to foster discussion"; I think you expected affirmation that your actions were justified. However, with some exceptions, you didn't get the reactions you expected. But, as I was told years ago, "If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question".

As I wrote before, I think the point not whether the guy that hit into you did it intentionally or unintentionally; was right or wrong, old or young, good golfer or bad, and it isn't even a question of whether he is member or not. The most important point is: how do you handle an "incident" when you are somebody's guest at their club (or home or office, for that matter)? I recommended that a reasonable, mature adult does not react viscerally, emotionally or physically if "wronged" or provoked (even if righteously indignant), but lets the host (at the club or home or office) handle the matter and provide the necessary "intervention". It may not feel quite as satisfying as "firing a ball back at him" or even teeing up the ball or writing some obscenity on it, but it's the right way to deal with it. You thereby exhibit some class and your host is spared some embarrassment and the "offender" gets the message. But I think you already know what's right.

By the way, some of you fellows may think the great old clubs are full of old "fossils" (and there certainly are some, usually found in the dining room or playing Thursday mornings), but the really good golf clubs are full of avid golf members, usually 25-50 years old, and have plenty of scratch and single digit handicaps. It's simple: good golfers tend to seek out good golf courses. I'm pretty sure that those of you who have been invited to a good club know the golf experience alone is worth some good manners.

[roll - gybe]

[quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841264' date='Jul 24 2009, 02:56 PM']I'm going to keep this short and simple. I don't think you really "wanted to foster discussion"; I think you expected affirmation that your actions were justified. However, with some exceptions, you didn't get the reactions you expected. But, as I was told years ago, "If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question".[/quote]


I disagree about my intentions. I have learned something from this discussion.

I'm pretty much done now. It's getting a little more personal and nasty. I feel like a few people are getting a little too forceful and equivocal for my taste.
I'm not returning to this thread, and I would like to close out my involvement with it. See ya later in another thread, guys.

[stevestrike]

[quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841264' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:56 PM']The most important point is: how do you handle an "incident" when you are somebody's guest at their club[/quote]
Wrong! That may be the most important thing to YOU, but some people may value other things more highly, like the respect of not being hit into by the group behind them. Not everyone is as concerned with the "membership" as you.

[Ronzo]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1841354' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:46 PM']Wrong! That may be the most important thing to YOU, but some people may value other things more highly, like the respect of not being hit into by the group behind them. Not everyone is as concerned with the "membership" as you.[/quote]

Well-stated.

I'm learning quite a bit about the mentality of many -- not all -- private club golfers by reading this thread. There seems to be an intimation that golfers who are NOT private club members lack the social skills to be members of a private club. I can assure you that this is NOT the case for everyone, nor for the majority of golfers with whom I'm personally acquainted.

If I were a member at a private club, my EXPECTATION would be that any guest I choose to bring would be treated with the same courtesy and respect given to a member of my immediate family. Why, then, would an assertive statement given to an inattentive or uncaring member of the club when that member would hit too close to one's wife be appropriate, and the same assertive statement from me or my guest be treated as a social [i]faux pas[/i]? Would it be a social [i]faux pas[/i] if my wife would make that statement?

Perhaps that's a reason why private club golf has never appealed to me at the social level. There is a significant difference between "treading lightly" because of respect for the other person's humanity (i.e. the Golden Rule) and "treading lightly" for fear of offending someone because they [i][b]may[/b][/i] possibly ostracize me and my family in their social setting. They might even be a member of the Board of Directors, and consequently "powerful" in their exclusive little domain. Heaven forfend!

My understanding of a golf club is that the members share a mutual respect for the game of golf, their course, and each other. When any one of the three areas of respect are not present, it is a situation I would rather not be in, since I would not be like-minded. I would then choose to resign my membership.

But, as Stephen King said in [i]The Stand[/i], "No great loss."

Edited for poor typing skills.

[Mainlinegolfer]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1841354' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:46 PM'][quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841264' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:56 PM']The most important point is: how do you handle an "incident" when you are somebody's guest at their club[/quote]
Wrong! That may be the most important thing to YOU, but some people may value other things more highly, like the respect of not being hit into by the group behind them. Not everyone is as concerned with the "membership" as you.
[/quote]
I'm "wrong"? Apparently you just don't get it. Hasn't it been already made abundantly clear by me and I think everyone else, that it's NOT acceptable to hit into a group? But, if it happens, iit's usually accidental. How is it a question of not showing "respect" if the person did it inadvertently? Isn't the guy's typical reaction going to one of "Gee, I had no idea and I'm terribly sorry". It's only a few idiots around here that seem to post that maybe it's OK to send a message that "those guys are playing too damn slow" and hit one over their heads. Then, if you're really unlucky, those guys' reaction is to make a move to "teach you a lesson" about hitting into them. And if you are REALLY unlucky, maybe those guys pull a gun (as was vividly described by some boys from Texas in another thread).

So, again, the question is, how do you react when someone does something you don't like or agree with? It might be on a golf course, when someone cuts you off when driving, or when someone makes an insulting remark.

I stand behind my comments that it's how you handle such an incident that is important and a measure of a man (or woman)-- whether it's at a private club OR a public/muni course (and I have plenty of experience at muni and private clubs). I guess you can get pissy and aggressive at your course and take a chance on escalating the outcome to unacceptable consequences (whether it's simply not being invited back, getting into an argument or fight, or even worse. Or, you can deal with life as a mature, civilized grown-up, with less machismo, indignation, and sense of entitlement.

At this point, I suspect that those who already understand my point don't feel it's necessary to respond. and those who don't can argue among themselves and decide who's toughest and how YOU"D take care of that SOB who hit into you.

In the future, I think I'll just stick to discussions about golf equipment (although tempers do seem to flare when it comes to Titleist vs. TaylorMade and cast vs. forged). Yikes, [u]every[/u] topic is controversial and everyone is so certain they're right (or is it "there" or "their"? I am getting confused after reading Internet posts).

[stevestrike]

[quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841560' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:47 PM']I'm "wrong"?[/quote] Yes, you are wrong. You don't get to decide what is "most important".

[quote]I stand behind my comments that it's how you handle such an incident that is important and a measure of a man[/quote] Good, because that's not what you said. You said MOST important. No one disagrees with you that handling yourself like a mature adult is the proper way to handle things. Only that 'membership' isn't the be all end all that some of you guys make it out to be.

[quote]At this point, I suspect that those who already understand my point don't feel it's necessary to respond. and those who don't can argue among themselves and decide who's toughest and how YOU"D take care of that SOB who hit into you.[/quote] Now you're just putting words in my mouth. It has nothing to do with toughness, macho, or anything like that. It's a disgust for you high & mighty member-types that think a private club elevates you somehow above everyone else, and how we deal with things on the course. e.g.: has to 'go through a member' to address the guy who hit into him.

[bscinstnct]

Hitting into someone with a long iron or fairway wood, unless you just picked up the game 4 months ago OR you sliced or hooked it, is negligent or intentional, in my opinion.

[b]There is no excuse to launch a fairway wood anywhere near another golfer. How often does Sergio hit his 4i into
Vijay?

Hello, is there any one at home? It is not that complicated. Don't hit into people. We know that you usually only hit
your 3i 219 but if you think that you might hit is 227, then stand down and wait.

[/b]
With respect to a member at a club at which I am not a member.

If someone is so [b]dumb and stupid[/b] to launch a fairway wood or long iron[b] [/b]into me on their approach shot. Were I not a member at the club at which this happened, I would expect that the member who invited me would completely understand if I were to approach the mathematical genius who launched the ball and suggest to him that he or she be more careful.

Are we men or mice? We do what we need to as the situation deems appropriate.

To the OP, I say, good for you, you probably made the membership's day. The offender is probably getting a good ribbing and
most importantly, will not make the same "mistake" again.

[Mainlinegolfer]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1841574' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:03 PM'][quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841560' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:47 PM']I'm "wrong"?[/quote] Yes, you are wrong. You don't get to decide what is "most important".

[quote]I stand behind my comments that it's how you handle such an incident that is important and a measure of a man[/quote] Good, because that's not what you said. You said MOST important. No one disagrees with you that handling yourself like a mature adult is the proper way to handle things. Only that 'membership' isn't the be all end all that some of you guys make it out to be.

[quote]At this point, I suspect that those who already understand my point don't feel it's necessary to respond. and those who don't can argue among themselves and decide who's toughest and how YOU"D take care of that SOB who hit into you.[/quote] Now you're just putting words in my mouth. It has nothing to do with toughness, macho, or anything like that. [b]It's a disgust for you high & mighty member-types that think a private club elevates you somehow above everyone else, and how we deal with things on the course. e.g.: has to 'go through a member' to address the guy who hit into him.[/b]
[/quote]
Steve, I don't know what has caused your insecurities and prompted you to include me in your "disgust for... high & mighty member-types that think a private club elevates you somehow above everyone else ". Remember, the OP was asking about how to handle a situation at a private club so, having some experience with private clubs as a member and guest, I gave my opinion. As I have said repeatedly, hitting into someone is bad, not good, and should not be done by anyone. And if someone does do it, accidentally or intentionally, they are bad. OK?

So, what should the proper response be? As I also wrote multiple times, if you are someone's [b]guest [/b]at a private club (or anywhere), it is more appropriate you handle the situation through your host than confront the problem (person) directly. It will make your host happier than if you react angrily yourself (assuming you like your host and maybe want to be invited back). If you go to a dinner party and your host's children misbehave, do you bust the kids on the head yourself or tell their parents?

I suggest you calm down, re-read the posts, and think about what I wrote. I'm not wrong and what I wrote is not very controversial or "high and mighty", just common sense and courtesy. IF you are ever invited to play at a nice club in Houston, such as River Oaks, you might better appreciate what I am saying. At this point, you go your way and I'll go mine.

[Dill Pickleson]

people are so fkn sensitive, if a ball actually hit me and killed me, than i guess it was my time to go

[stevestrike]

[quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841945' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:47 PM']If you go to a dinner party and your host's children misbehave, do you bust the kids on the head yourself or tell their parents?[/quote]
So who's the child and who's the parent in this scenario? I thought we were all supposed to be acting like adults? You can lob personal insults at me all day long, it doesn't change anything (PS--I do have the luxury of playing at some very nice private clubs as a guest).

The problem here, which you cannot see through your schema, is that you feel this problem is better handled "member to member" which implies that the non-member is not worthy to approach a member about getting hit at. This smacks of elitism, and is why so many people are repulsed by your comments.

[deepballer]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1841354' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:46 PM'][quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841264' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:56 PM']The most important point is: how do you handle an "incident" when you are somebody's guest at their club[/quote]
Wrong! That may be the most important thing to YOU, but some people may value other things more highly, like the respect of not being hit into by the group behind them. Not everyone is as concerned with the "membership" as you.
[/quote]

OMG.
This issue is clearly a matter of opinion and definitely a judge of character. The need to solve a situation even though it was very minor is "childish" at best.
If you are a guest, wether it is at a private course or a friend of a friends home, in no way should you allow your self to become involved in physical confrontation. These people do not deserve to be invited out.

[Pepperturbo]

Some of you folks seem to overlook or are not aware of some crucial facts. Club bylaws are written for "all" members and later vote on; and one of those bylaws stipulates behavior of both members and guests. To be a good member in standing, members accept those rules at the time of joining and follow both the rules and unwritten rules out of respect.

Has nothing to do with elitism, individualism, or rights as a non-member. That said, I can’t help but believe those concerned about their rights to react or refer to private club members as elitist wouldn’t join or frequent places where rules or such people might be a concern.

Still reality says anyone on private properly obeys the rules of behavior set by the owners of that property. Same is true when someone visits a friend’s home. If a guest decides to do something that is against the home owner’s rules, he’s told he can’t, to stop and or leave. A simple yet common example is when a child that’s left home decided to come back for an overnight visit bringing their SO; most parents believe if not married, they don’t sleep in the same bed. Obviously some kids get upset, still they abide by the behavior rules or leave the property.

Bylaws or rules are created for all members and voted on by all, or created by the benevolent owner for all members. Every private club I've visited whether equity or 4profit to discuss leadership issues has member and guest policies and rules governing behavior in all situations. I don't expect anyone to agree that's the way it is for them, just be respectful of those people that choose to live by those conditions. We've beat this horse well...

[Asleep]

The correct response as a non-member to being hit into by a member at a fancy pants private club is,

[[i]smiling[/i]] "It's your world, boss."


Why do you think private clubs even allow guests on the course.........target practice!

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1842488' date='Jul 25 2009, 11:03 AM']Some of you folks seem to overlook or are not aware of some crucial facts. Club bylaws are written for "all" members and later vote on; and one of those bylaws stipulates behavior of both members and guests. To be a good member in standing, members accept those rules at the time of joining and follow both the rules and unwritten rules out of respect.

Has nothing to do with elitism, individualism, or rights as a non-member. That said, I can't help but believe those concerned about their rights to react or refer to private club members as elitist wouldn't join or frequent places where rules or such people might be a concern.

Still reality says anyone on private properly obeys the rules of behavior set by the owners of that property. Same is true when someone visits a friend's home. If a guest decides to do something that is against the home owner's rules, he's told he can't, to stop and or leave. A simple yet common example is when a child that's left home decided to come back for an overnight visit bringing their SO; most parents believe if not married, they don't sleep in the same bed. Obviously some kids get upset, still they abide by the behavior rules or leave the property.

Bylaws or rules are created for all members and voted on by all, or created by the benevolent owner for all members. Every private club I've visited whether equity or 4profit to discuss leadership issues has member and guest policies and rules governing behavior in all situations. I don't expect anyone to agree that's the way it is for them, just be respectful of those people that choose to live by those conditions. We've beat this horse well... [/quote]

All valid but I would add this:

Club rules of conduct are nearly always applied with respect to the behavior of children, usually with respect to conduct in the pool
or maybe speeding in golf carts.

I would not expect any rules to supersede those of common sense and put a member's standing in jeopardy should one of their guests
approache another member directly and request that they not hit golf balls at them from long distances.

[deepballer]

[quote name='roll - gybe' post='1841312' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:17 PM'][quote name='Mainlinegolfer' post='1841264' date='Jul 24 2009, 02:56 PM']I'm going to keep this short and simple. I don't think you really "wanted to foster discussion"; I think you expected affirmation that your actions were justified. However, with some exceptions, you didn't get the reactions you expected. But, as I was told years ago, "If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question".[/quote]


I disagree about my intentions. I have learned something from this discussion.

I'm pretty much done now. It's getting a little more personal and nasty. I feel like a few people are getting a little too forceful and equivocal for my taste.
I'm not returning to this thread, and I would like to close out my involvement with it. See ya later in another thread, guys.
[/quote]

Can't take the heat?
[b]GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN![/b][i][/i]

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='bja24' post='1836590' date='Jul 22 2009, 12:47 PM']Unless obviously done on purpose, I give somebody the benefit of the doubt as far as hitting into me once goes. If it was blatant or done on more than one occasion I would just simply ask the group to be more cautious regardless of whether we're talking about a muni track or if I was a guest at a high end club. To hit into somebody intentionally is not acceptable. I'm not a member at any club nor am I familiar with these unwritten conduct rules. [b] I can say though that putting myself in the shoes of the member who was confronted, I would have a lot more respect for the guest who addressed the issue with me directly than if he had his host talk to me about it at a later time. Is it such bad conduct that a guest address an issue with a member directly? Are you that superior that how dare a guest bring up a simple issue of golf etiquette with you directly? This is assuming that the guest was civil and reasonable of course.[/b][/quote]

I agree completely with your post, especially the bold section. Just because you have a membership at an exclusive course does not put you above anyone. If I have issue with a person, I prefer to handle it directly with that person, be it a bum on the street, all the way to the President if given the opportunity. If a member cannot handle a civil discussion with another members guest about hitting into said guest, that is his problem. I have been a member at a private club, and if I had a guest who was hit into by another member, and my guest said something to that member, in a civil manner, or teed his ball up in the fairway to let him know his mistake (especially since he did not warn us of the incoming shot), I would take no issue with it, and I would back my guest all the way to the top at the club if need be. If that member took issue with it, I would explain it to the director, and the issue would be resolved. You (the collective you who think membership affords special status in life) are not in any way above me, and I will not be treated as though you feel you are. As a MAN, I will not tolerate being talked down to, or looked down upon by someone who feels they are "upper echelon".

[Ronzo]

[quote name='bigred90gt' post='1844960' date='Jul 26 2009, 10:47 PM']I agree completely with your post, especially the bold section. Just because you have a membership at an exclusive course does not put you above anyone. If I have issue with a person, I prefer to handle it directly with that person, be it a bum on the street, all the way to the President if given the opportunity. If a member cannot handle a civil discussion with another members guest about hitting into said guest, that is his problem. I have been a member at a private club, and if I had a guest who was hit into by another member, and my guest said something to that member, in a civil manner, or teed his ball up in the fairway to let him know his mistake (especially since he did not warn us of the incoming shot), I would take no issue with it, and I would back my guest all the way to the top at the club if need be. If that member took issue with it, I would explain it to the director, and the issue would be resolved. You (the collective you who think membership affords special status in life) are not in any way above me, and I will not be treated as though you feel you are. As a MAN, I will not tolerate being talked down to, or looked down upon by someone who feels they are "upper echelon".[/quote]

Extremely well-stated, especially the last two sentences.

I wonder if the situation changes as a member if your guest was the CEO of your company, or your best customer, who took issue with the member who hit into him? Would you then take your guest to task? Or is this just a matter concerning the "little people" you permit to join you on your course in your preferred social setting?

[golfortennis]

The club I'm a member at is more of a player's club. This is my first season, so I'm still getting the feel for things, but I have not seen anything that would suggest this would need to be handled "member-to-member."

I suspect that it would be considered differently at the other club I had considered, where I wasn't surprised when a lcoal dentist was referred to as "Dr. xxxx" by the bag shop kids working that day, however was very surprised when members did the same thing.....

The only time I have let anything slide was when I was asked how my putt broke. Not due to his standing as a club member, but due to the fact he is the CEO at my wife's company, did I provide the information. He most likely would have understood, but I wasn't about to take that chance.....

[TKing]

quote: "So you are one of the guys who had the original Elvstom sail on you laser? Wooden boards... 3:1 vang, 1:1 outhaul. Had to be a strongman then! "


Yes, and spent a lot of time on a "hiking bench" holding a line with a cinder block hanging for weight to pull against when not sailing. I like a trapeze a LOT better these days.

[trionz420]

shoulda pinched a loaf on that ball