The youth participation debate: Nicklaus speaks at PGA Show

[Steve Hennessey]

The latest to address golf's debate on youth participation? Jack Nicklaus.

 

Jack spoke at last week's PGA Show, as a keynote speaker for the Golf 2.0 conference, addressing the declining levels of kids playing golf.

 

See what Jack had to say, and sound off on whether or not you think he's right on track: Golf World Monday: How can we grow the game?

[bermuda]

The pro at our local municipal course has an award-winning junior program, but it's still miniscule compared to youth baseball and the youth soccer fields across the street.

I got my girlfriend's son, now 10 interested in golf; his main interest is baseball. His dad is dead-set against him playing golf (and anything else he himself isn't interested in) thinking it will mess up his baseball swing.

For families, golf has a lot going against it now. For example, a season of youth baseball costs $50 to sign up. For the 10-year-old, his mom and me to play 9 holes, it costs $49. In this economy, there's no way we can afford $150-$200 a month to join a club. We've never played 18 holes; 9 are more than the kid's attention span can handle.

We played at par-3 courses in Myrtle Beach. To walk 9 holes at a par-3 was about $15 a person -- as much as a full-size course. Why so much?

The time, the cost, declining club memberships, no more caddy programs, all the other sports out there that cost less and take less time (though I realize parents can spend as much or more on those sports as with golf), it's no wonder jr. golf is no more popular than it is. I started playing at about 8 or 9 and worked at pro shops and golf courses from jr. high into college and after college, and I hate to see kids not interested in golf today.

[edub72]

I'm with you on this. I have a 10 year old that has given up soccer baseball and football to play golf. We'll call equipment like shoes and clothing a wash. That leaves me with green fees, thankfully our local muni is a redesigned course from 3 years ago and is in generally good shape. They have junior tees and it's $10 for juniors at all times. I'm saving about 240 on league fees for the other sports, so we've got it pretty good.

Downside is i have to pay to play with my son and i am definitely ok with this, but i walk and cant play everyday like my son would like. Courses don't always take this into account but many times I can negotiate with them since I generally play in off hours and walk. I really wish the courses were more accessible but course management companies and municipalities around here atleast are missing out on a decent demographic that would like to play but don't have full days to devote.

I'm developing a business idea address these accessibility, time and financial issues for juniors and adults both. I must say its a selfish venture to get me in the course more.

[Jc0]

I agree that golf is way to expensive and that is why it drives both kids and parents away. Compared to other sports golf is 3-5 times more expensive. The real killers are the green fees though. I have played a lot of high level sports and gotten over the sticker shock of my equipment, but no other sport costs as much to play as golf. With some sports I can spend $300 and get three months worth of play, maybe even more. With golf that may get you a months worth of play, maybe two.

[rvgolfer]

Truth is,,most families just cant afford to have 3-4 golfers all paying green fees. Even with a family membership, its quite a bit of money per month.

The other issue is that golf courses just dont cater to juniors, especially under 12-13 playing alone. While they do hold clinics and have some days in the summer for juniors, the rest of the week and most of the rest of the year, juniors are discriminated against, most courses require an adult in the group under a certain age. So for most, that means playing with a parent.

Even a 5000 yard course for a young junior is a big challenge, and most would be better of on a short executive course or par 3 course. While over on the baseball or soccer field, a player of similar age get to play on fields matched to their age group, against competition of similar skill, and with their friends, in groups of greater than just a foursome.

Its a problem and more golf courses need to have better and more enjoyable programs for juniors if the golf communty really wants to do more to encourage juniors.

[Thrillhouse]

Playing as a junior is a lot easier in a club situation than it is at public tracks. You can set and enforce rules much more easily which allows juniors to play more often. When a junior misbehaves at a club mom and dad can be called, and if problems persist the kid can be suspended or banned from the facility. When a youngster misbehaves at a public track there is little recourse other than kicking the kid off the course.

Anyway thats just how I see it, juniors running wild doesn't tend to work very well, but if the rules are made clear its good to have a few around at the club enjoying the game.

[geesecougar2]

Why do you parents need to play with your kids? Is it a safety concern, or do the courses require it?

I started golf relatively late (16), but it seemed that all the other kids I met at the golf course had been playing on their own on the big course for years. Parents would just drop them off for the day and they would play, hang out at the range, chip and putt, whatever. I still wish I could have started earlier so I could do that as an adolescent.

I remember reading a story about Tiger as a junior. He would go to the course, spend the day there, and hustle random golfers. At the end of the day, Earl would pick him up. He would see Tiger with a wad of cash, and he would tell him, "Tiger, you can't do that," all the while chuckle to himself. Entertaining anecdote, but the point is Tiger would be out there by himself without supervision; worked out pretty good for his game.

As for greens fees, it's too bad it costs so much. My hometown muni in the Bay Area had two 18 hole courses, a par 3, and a driving range. Juniors could play the courses for $1, and buy range balls for half price. With a deal like that it's almost a no brainer to have your kid play golf. Too bad these deals are not more prevalent across the country.

[jli2636]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1328057800' post='4188109']
Playing as a junior is a lot easier in a club situation than it is at public tracks. You can set and enforce rules much more easily which allows juniors to play more often. When a junior misbehaves at a club mom and dad can be called, and if problems persist the kid can be suspended or banned from the facility. When a youngster misbehaves at a public track there is little recourse other than kicking the kid off the course.

Anyway thats just how I see it, juniors running wild doesn't tend to work very well, but if the rules are made clear its good to have a few around at the club enjoying the game.
[/quote]

Here is the problem with that philosophy though, parents refuse to believe that their kid is doing something wrong. Ive seen it happen in a pool setting where a friend of mine was a lifeguard and told a kid to stop running on the pool deck at a private club(golf, pool, dining room, fitness, etc.). The kid went and told his dad what my friend said, and my friend lost his job because the dad essentially said dont tell my kid what to do and he was on the board.

At the course I worked at for 4 years in Missouri, which was a semi private club, tuesday mornings in the summer were blocked off for juniors. All of the members know this because it has been that way for as long as anyone can remember, but they still show up and want to play in the time blocked off for juniors. Then they throw hissy fits about not being able to play so its a lose lose situation for the employees in the pro shop. It is typically the older members as well(60s-70s) that make the biggest fuss about it. I guess what im saying is that if you want to encourage younger kids to play dont take away the only time that they could have the course to themselves. Rules are only as strong as the people who enforce them, but when the people who are hired to enforce them are not allowed to enforce them for fear of not having a job because you pi$$ off a member, then whats the point in having rules at all?

[tobybear]

From the age of 12-16 (im 25 now) I belonged to a local 18 hole public course thats still around. The course was and still is very kid friendly for only $400 a year all we could play no restrictions ( i think its gone up since then )

Its about 6300 yards long and has multiple sets of tees. My mom or dad would drop me off on the way to work usually before 7 or 8 am and give me 5 bucks for the day. Because this was before every kid has a phone we would arrange tee times with friends the night before and be out there all day, and when I say all day I mean till it was dark.

We would chip and putt for quarters or ProV's ( those were like finding gold when I was 13 ) and because it was a family owned and designed course we could go out to the range and pick up range balls and bring them back if we wanted to practice (once again they were very kid friendly)

That $5 for lunch was enough for a burger and fries and a drink and there was also water on the course for those really hot days. Those were the days that I remember so much as a kid. I would play golf with anybody who was on the tee and had an open spot, which is probably one ofthe reasons to this day I am very happy to strike up a conversation with a complete stranger. Also when he could my dad would play with me and my friends, and we had so much fun.

I know when I get the chance I play golf with the kids at the courses I belong to I throw them some golf balls or a towel when we finish up, or offer help to them if they want help with a shot. The other thing is if they do hit a bag shot let them try it again. I do this because I still remember what it was like to be a young kid learning to play and that being patient will make them learn easier. On the plus side when these kids are older they will pay membership dues and keep my membership rate down right??

In all seriousness though I think the biggest problem is that this kind or setup especially in major cities is really hard to come by. I grew up in a small town (6000 people) and the rates that the course are still reasonable today and considering Ive played at private courses that last couple years that course is still an extremely great value when it comes to conditioning when I payed there last.

Money makes the world go round and golf is something that also takes a lot of time to learn properly and have it be enjoyable for people. Make it less expensive and faster and you will see increased interest.

I think having shorter par 3 courses is the way to go especially to grow the game

[golow]

Not hearing or reading a transcript of Jack's keynote address means I am only commenting on the blurb linked in the OP.

If it is/was a goal of Jack's to have all or most of his grandkids to play golf regularly and only 1/22 does, that is probably closest thing to failure he has ever felt. Access and opportunity are not the problem as we read. Sad.

I took my son to the club since age 3. Hit a few balls, hotdog then home ... play 4 holes, handful of range balls into the pond, hotdog then home ... play 9, hotdog then home. Always took him home when he wanted more (Johnny Miller tip). Now he plays 18 once a week, 9 another time, First Tee group "lessons" Saturday, First Tee Golf Team practice or match Sunday, also Tues night kids' night at the club for a six hole scramble all summer. He loves it and is getting pretty good (10 years old now). In the summer he plays more than me.

Here's a kid who likes soccer and plays but isn't a standout at all (too timid). This year he passed the First Tee Birdie level program and made the "TPC Team". At our club he followed that up with winning the end of year kids tourney, long drive, putting (totally lucky), and holed out a 50 foot chip with 10 feet of swing and the putt hung on the lip like Tiger on AN 16 only to fall as everybody around the practice green and on the upper deck erupted. That was the night of his life ... he floated home. Because he had basically no competition in this format he had what probably felt like wild success (he's no prodigy I can assure you). He's hooked for life I think.

It's all free because at my club under 14 is no pay to play attended and the First Tee stuff is so cheap it's silly. If I played public only a Junior membership would run $300/yr. at the better local course I would choose.

I can't say enough about the First Tee of CT. They make a solitary game very social for the kids.

Sorry for the rambling

golow(TM)

[jak_bot]

The problem is not so much youth participation, but getting the youth to go from driving range rats to golfers who play on an actual course. A two tier stand-alone driving range near me has no problem attracting youth from all walks of life. On Fri/Sat/Sun nights the place is loaded with people from their teens all the way to seniors.

[Funderpants]

[size=3]Expensive equipment, with greens fees becoming more expensive, with few places that have caddy programs or even the ability for a casual golfer to walk. Yet they can't figure it out!!!

I mean seriously, there is nothing more I hate than seeing every new course, including and especially all the new Jack designed courses that are strictly carts only and cost $100+ to play. There are a bazillion courses in my area and only 1 has a caddy program and even then it's a exclusive membership that ain't cheap. The sport has spent 20+ YEARS! trying to make it more and more exclusive and they are wondering what has happened.

Kids are going to want to hang out with other kids, period. If all the other kids are playing soccer, baseball and football that's where they'll end up gravitating. Golf is going to need to spend the next 20+ years attracting kids into the game.



[/size]

[jons1]

Let's face it, golf has probably reached it's peak just before the real estate decline. Combine bad economy, with expensive costs to play (especially in some areas), and the deflated "Tiger era", why would the game be growing? the game of golf will decline without any doubt, and there's no program or keynote that will prop it up otherwise. I expect numbers to go back to what they were in the 90s.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1328071703' post='4189769']
Let's face it, golf has probably reached it's peak just before the real estate decline. Combine bad economy, with expensive costs to play (especially in some areas), and the deflated "Tiger era", why would the game be growing? the game of golf will decline without any doubt, and there's no program or keynote that will prop it up otherwise. I expect numbers to go back to what they were in the 90s.
[/quote]

This is very true and very relevant. Honestly I would prefer to see the game go back to the way it was in the 90's when I started playing. People who played golf were more committed to it and more serious about it back then. There were far less people were out there to drink and act like yahoos who only got into golf because Tiger was doing it and it was the "cool" thing to do. And yes, you could learn the game as a junior golfer. but you had to learn the rules and the etiquette before you were allowed on the course and thats not such a bad thing.

The golf business has to be worked up about it because they make less money if the game is in decline. But i'm not worried about them, my concern is about people who play and enjoy the game.

[TigerStrong]

I grew up playing the TPC Desert course (now TPC Champions) for $5.00 a round and the Phoenix city courses for $15.00 a month for unlimited golf...can't do that anymore

Looks like you can play the city courses for $30.00 a month now which is a great deal...unlimited golf stand by basis...great deal

[jons1]

another point, golf club/ball technology is actually creating the decline as well. golf courses have to be built with so much land, that they have no choice but to charge a lot of money (not only from the investment, but the maintenance).

[poizster]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1328077258' post='4190125']
another point, golf club/ball technology is actually creating the decline as well. golf courses have to be built with so much land, that they have no choice but to charge a lot of money (not only from the investment, but the maintenance).
[/quote]

I heard Jack say something about this too. Specifically I think he was talking about India and how they don't have the land to build courses that can compete with the evolving technology of golf. I'm kind of sick of this tune, if you don't have the land build what the game needs to get juniors involved, par 3 courses. Especially in a country where you have an opportunity to introduce a billion novice players to the game.

[bobfoster]

I think it might be several things ... but also think it may not be as bad as it is made out to be.

First ... I learned golf early (8) ... my father taught me. In the 1960s. But I got to play a lot and be around golf a lot because I was a looper. In the 60's a good number of courses still used caddies. (And in a lot of the world, they still do). I think it is how countless boys and girls got into golf. It was a good summer job ... and generally a lot of courses let caddies play (late in the afternoon anyway) for free. These days ... it is rare to find a course with caddies anywhere in the US. As dumb as it sounds ... I think caddying used to be a sort of feeder system.

Second ... the world has changed a lot. Everything is ... I don't know ... quicker these days. It is a twitter generation ... life is lived 140 characters at a time. Things have to be fast, big, and exciting. We're living in a world that appears to be a set designed by Michael Bay. Golf's 4 or 5 hour rounds and slow rythyms are not quite in tune with today's kids I don't think.

That said ... I'm not quite as worried as Jack and others about the lack of kids playing the game. I think the game has something lasting about it. I just think it may turn out to be that things have changed ... and the norm may turn out to be that people start taking up golf later in life (teens or 20s).

[J13]

Golf will be ok Jack. Retire in peace. I think the face of golf is changing and it worries some of the old blue hairs.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='Funderpants' timestamp='1328070387' post='4189645']
[size=3]Expensive equipment, with greens fees becoming more expensive, with few places that have caddy programs or even the ability for a casual golfer to walk. Yet they can't figure it out!!!

I mean seriously, there is nothing more I hate than seeing every new course, including and especially all the new Jack designed courses that are strictly carts only and cost $100+ to play. There are a bazillion courses in my area and only 1 has a caddy program and even then it's a exclusive membership that ain't cheap. The sport has spent 20+ YEARS! trying to make it more and more exclusive and they are wondering what has happened.

Kids are going to want to hang out with other kids, period. If all the other kids are playing soccer, baseball and football that's where they'll end up gravitating. Golf is going to need to spend the next 20+ years attracting kids into the game.



[/size]
[/quote]

This x1000. Jack should look no farther than his own course design.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1328101547' post='4190555']
... I'm not quite as worried as Jack and others about the lack of kids playing the game. I think the game has something lasting about it. I just think it may turn out to be that things have changed ... and the norm may turn out to be that people start taking up golf later in life (teens or 20s).
[/quote]

I think Bob is right. The game of golf won't appeal to most children no matter what you do. Franlkly, the game is very boring for most kids compared to football, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc, That's ok, though. Golf is an acquired taste that becomes more appealing as you grow older in life. Golf has been around longer than just anout every other sport/game, and I imagine it will be around long after those others are gone.

[mikpga]

Our Director of Golf was on the committee with Mr. Nicklaus for Golf 2.0 down in Orlando...

Our hope is that Mr. Nicklaus will visit our facility and perhaps draw some attention to what we do...

We have a facility which has a wide variety of "junior" programs/leagues/tournaments/clinics/etc...

I was shocked when I read that only one grandchild plays golf on a regular basis, but I don't think it really means anything...

Jack played how many sports growing up?

Nothing wrong with kids playing other sports, as a matter of fact I think it should be encouraged if it's possible...

The First Tee is continuing to grow and expose the game to many kids...

The amount of junior golf tournaments that are available now compared to 10 years ago suggests that there are more and more kids playing the game as well...

[Suntower]

So... where did Jack design the golf course that was relatively short with Junior's Tees that didn't cost more than a few bucks to play so kids and families could get out?

I think the pot is calling the kettle black.

There are two distinct problems that I see.

First. Golf is an elitist sport. Deny it if you want, but that's just the way it is. Think about it... there's a dress code... it's expensive... there's a large percentage of golf courses you can't play without a membership... and a small percentage of those that are still extremely exclusive. Look at the commercials/advertising around golf. The Superbowl commercials are Pepsi, Budweiser and Doritos. The Masters is Viagra, Jaguar and investment bankers. Honestly, I LIKE that there are courses where I can pay to have my car parked and my bag put in my cart without me touching it... where I don't hafta worry about rednecks out in tank tops and cut-offs spraying balls around, hot lapping golf carts and getting drunk. And from the looks of the industry, I'm not the only one.

You can't have an elitist sport and then wonder why it's not growing.

Second. The proliferation of the golf cart and all the bad things it has done for the game. So many of the things that keep young people and families from playing golf are directly related. No caddie programs. It used to be an excellent way for young people to be introduced to the game, make a buck and be able to play for free or cheap. Now they are all but gone thanks to the golf cart. The lack of new courses that are walkable. That's obvious. Also related is the expanses of land that these new courses take up because designers are allowed to spread holes with no concern for the real estate they are chewing up. I played Journey at Pechanga in Temecula recently... awesome course, but there were seriously 3-4 minute cart rides between some holes. C'mon! And IMO (with some statistical backup)... carts make the game slower and less enjoyable.

[hef63303]

I am not sure that youth participation is the key to golf's growth. First, golf needs growth now, not 15 years from now. Second, thousands of kids play little league baseball, but very few play past the age of 18. I think the key is to try to attract the college age demographic. These are the people that will soon join the job market(hopefully) and be looking for recreational activities. They are more able to pay for their green fees and their equipment, as opposed to families that are trying to pay for 3-4 kids to play.

[SurfDuffer]

I have a son that is incredibly talented at golf. From the age of 5 to 10 he played and practiced regularly at our club and was playing junior tournaments. He went to school one day and got teased by the other boys about playing golf and it instantly became un-cool to play golf. Its a shame because he is really good. Now he will not go unless I beg plead or bribe. He's probably only played 5 times in the two years since.

When so few kids know anything about the game its hard to even keep your kids interested. They want to be doing the things their friends at school are doing. Sad really.

[mantan]

[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1328153602' post='4195303']
I am not sure that youth participation is the key to golf's growth. First, golf needs growth now, not 15 years from now. Second, thousands of kids play little league baseball, but very few play past the age of 18. I think the key is to try to attract the college age demographic. These are the people that will soon join the job market(hopefully) and be looking for recreational activities. They are more able to pay for their green fees and their equipment, as opposed to families that are trying to pay for 3-4 kids to play.
[/quote]

I agree with this. It's a romantic notion to think the best way to grow the game is to put a club in a kids hand. But the game should be grown at all age levels. Golf is one of the few sports you can truly play for a lifetime. There are a lot of people who pick the up game as adults and quickly get frustrated and quit. Where golf fails miserably is on the instruction front. The quality of golf instructors is all over the board and the PGA does little to push truly effective teaching.

[SurfDuffer]

The running joke at my home club is that the average age of the members is deceased. There really needs to be a youth movement or many clubs will die along with their member. It needs to happen fast. Baby boomers are dieing off and not renewing club memberships at an alarming pace and its only going to get worse.

[jons1]

[size="2"]I hope all the kids stop playing so the odds of being a touring golf professional increases. I think clubs should raise their prices a few thousand a month, make them all private with a no guest policy, and charge members children a full members rate plus a surcharge for all the course damage they might cause, and the driving ranges should require monthly memberships like joining the gym. I also think all the research going into the golf balls and drivers is just too expensive to charge the cheap prices they are, so OEMs should at least double the cost of clubs too boot. I'll tell ya, country clubs and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate. Anyone step on a duck?[/size]

[MadGolfer76]

What I see in schools being of the greatest interest to kids is collaborative activities which involve technology. In the 90's it was "okay" to be a lone wolf, or loner doing your own thing, but I don't see that quite as much currently. Golf is certainly more of a one man/one course/test-yourself-against-history kind of endeavor, whereas other team sports such as football, baseball, etc., seem to more closely align with prevailing attitudes. Another thing to point out is that there are larger numbers of school-age children now than ever before who prefer more of an instant-gratification approach to their free time than not. That isn't a judgement, just an observation. For activities like golf or music (where you have to work towards being able to play the cool stuff) there leaves a lot of convincing to be done in terms of choice.

I have to wonder, sometimes, if it is the responsible thing to do in attempting to draw children to the game in times of economic instability. It isn't exactly like all you need is a ball and court. Junior programs are great for certain ages, but don't necessarily sustain the means for continued involvement over time. The desire to draw kids to the game is more of a business interest than a social interest. The game is sufficiently established where it will not disappear anytime soon. I agree that playing vs. not playing is certainly preferable, but I chafe at the veiled motivation whenever I hear talk about the health of the game (meaning $$ health) and the "need" for more young bodies involved in it.

[STEC]

Alot of members at private clubs and sometimes even public clubs look down on juniors and to me that will always be the problem. Of course there are cases where there are great junior programs at certain clubs but across the board junior golf is still hurting. At the end of the day it is impossible to compete with sports like soccer and baseball where the costs are low.