Taylormade R1 Graphics

[stage1350]

The price point compared to adjustability will be the tipping point. Most golfers still don't want to take the time to dial their clubs in. For them, the RBZ give them 95% of the performance at 75% of the cost.

[scratchswinger]

TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.

[deck]

[quote name='golfware' timestamp='1356667953' post='6127335']
[quote name='Golfjunki71' timestamp='1356653666' post='6126089']
[quote name='OUZO Power' timestamp='1356649303' post='6125757']
[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1356618522' post='6123093']
[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1356580999' post='6121823']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1356556379' post='6119347']
If there is going to be a shootout, I'd challenge you to try this:

Get a "standardized" shaft like Blueboard 73, Project X, or some Matrix or Oban shaft. But make sure the EXACT shame shaft is used in the R9/R11/R1.

Same length, same loft, same swingweight.

I'd be willing to wager a bottle of your favorite label they will all be within a few yards of each other if the only variable is the head and the lofts/face angles of each head are consistent.
[/quote]

I would bet this is true also. I actually plan to do just that. If it goes well I will probably want to pull some of the old tips off the shafts I have for the older Tmag drivers and convert them to the new ones. Nerve racking but something I have been pondering.

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1356557006' post='6119395']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1356535215' post='6118095']
You know guys I don't mind the white, actually love matte finishes and R1 name is significantly better than Rocketwhatever BUT the crown graphics push it too far, just feels like it distracts from this clubs real potential. It's being fussy I know but it bugs me, same kinda feeling I get when a professional athlete says "it's a business"...BB
[/quote]

One of the questions that came up at the beginning of the thread and has lingered since is what specific performance increase are we going to see in the R1 versus the R11S. At first we heard that there was definitive increase in club head speed and distance by one of the testers which was exciting, but then later it was revealed that was what was told to them by a TM employee and not what they actually were able to measure in any objective way.
Easy's word is bond. If he says it's a cannon I would believe that, but then again I would say the R11S was a cannon too. His thoughts were much like a guy who I played golf with in college who recently tried the R1 and said it was a fine driver, but no different than the r11S and maybe 5 yards shorter. If we accept that the only difference between the R11S and R1 is maybe 5 yards one way or the other and 1 degree of loft more you can adjust, does it justify upgrading? And upgrading to a worse looking driver with a compass on the bottom?
When you add to the mix that TMAG has decided to make all my old shafts unusable without conversion, it now opens the door to look at every driver out there. Not a great thing for TMAG when Nike is getting ready to launch a driver that has everyone excited, Callaway is solid offerings, and other OEMs look strong too. There's probably an argument to be made that TMAG has taken their consumers for granted by pushing a driver that benefits the manufacturer and retailer far more than the end consumer.
[/quote]

Sir Dark,

Good points. I think the shaft adapter switch might detour some but I am in that bucket of guys that have a few shafts tipped up in the old adaptors. I will most likely pull the tips and use that shafts in my new gamer or add new tips.

You point is well taken though.

I dont think we are going to see more significant yards every year. I also think that dispersion is where we might see some advantages. I loved the sound and the flight. I didnt have this on a launch monitor compared to the R11s. That is where the rubber meets the road.

I will take this head and get fitted and bring the top gamer drivers along for the ride. That is where I can add a bunch of different shafts to see if one might be the one. Than compare that to the best combo of the R11s.
[/quote]

same shaft and setup in the r1/r11s my friend gained 10 yards - but more importantly better feel and sound. he is very candid and has been willing to tell me in the past if i should pass on an upcoming line or not. he predicted my bag will look like this:

r1 driver
stage 2 3 wood
stage 2 hybrid
3-PW rocketbladez tour
atv 54/58 (same)
ghost spider (same)
lethal (that good - love the ones i have played)
[/quote]Odd, wasn't the biggest gripe about the 11s the sound it made at impact. It was so bad some say that they even filled theirs with cotton balls. Cottonballz (CBZ). I expect a call from TM on this one. It's all mine.
[/quote]



Yes it sounded horrible, so bad I couldn't game it. If the new one sounds even as good as the Superfast I will get one.
[/quote]

Interesting. I've had several friends that have hit it said it wasn't that great. One commented that it was one of the worst sounding drivers he had hit in a while, and all told me (none know each other) that they felt the RBZ V2 was FAR superior in every way. Each said they felt the performance suffered due to all the adjustability, yet all agreed universally that the RBZ V2 will fly off the shelves.

Go figure.
[/quote]

I think sound is a personal opinion. I have a buddy that plays the nike Sasquatch. He loves the sound. I mean loves it. To me though I hate it lol. Usually because he bombs it 300+. And I'm looking at 260 max.

[stage1350]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.
[/quote]

GolfWRXers make up a small percentage of the golf club buying economy. But my friends that golf that aren't on this board usually ask my opinion when they are looking for new equipment. And that's the part that might make them a little nervous.

Titleist experienced this with the 905 series and drove the final nail through their coffin with the 907 series. While the 909, and 910 series are good, they lost the huge base that had followed them from the 975 series through the 983 series.

This will be the fourth generation of drivers that I haven't bought from TM (R11, R11s, RBZ, R1). Right now, they are still my driver as I'm gaming the Superdeep. But if some of the other OEM drivers pan out, they will continue to be in the bag.

[swanry30]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1356672534' post='6127631']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.
[/quote]

GolfWRXers make up a small percentage of the golf club buying economy. But my friends that golf that aren't on this board usually ask my opinion when they are looking for new equipment. And that's the part that might make them a little nervous.

Titleist experienced this with the 905 series and drove the final nail through their coffin with the 907 series. While the 909, and 910 series are good, they lost the huge base that had followed them from the 975 series through the 983 series.

This will be the fourth generation of drivers that I haven't bought from TM (R11, R11s, RBZ, R1). Right now, they are still my driver as I'm gaming the Superdeep. But if some of the other OEM drivers pan out, they will continue to be in the bag.
[/quote]

Love both of these comments. I bet you there was quite a bit of concern behind closed doors... Probably not to changing the graphics as they were set in stone but more to the reaction of people on WRX.

Think about this though - are you concerned if you are making money? TITLEIST didn't make money during their terrible stretch - and is finally back now with three positive generations. The TMAG equipment of late has been good - real good - but lacking at least one of the components that make a driver great. I hope the r1 performs and sounds great - as looks will be something that is completely polarizing. To finish the original thought - if i'm making money I'm only looking at why and how I am - and how can I keep it going. Being a market leader is tough. There is a fine line between failure and success!

[swanry30]

@stage1350 - from your standpoint... what would TMAG need to change for you to purchase?

IMO - the change needs to come in sound and feel.

[stage1350]

[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1356677066' post='6127821']
@stage1350 - from your standpoint... what would TMAG need to change for you to purchase?

IMO - the change needs to come in sound and feel.
[/quote]

I want to see some engineering substance. The Nike offers a CG change that should create a huge spin reduction and increase forgiveness.

TMAG already had sleeves that could go +- 2°, so the new sleeve offers nothing. The R11s already offered +-2° face angle. 3° in the R1 is incrementally not exciting.
White was done in R11. Graphics don't excite me.


What I'd like:
More ability to move weight- 4 lugnuts
A clean package up top. You have white. You don't need the excessive graphics.
Some piece of tech that is a true game changer. Multi metals? Carbon fiber for more weight shifting? Slot technology?

The problem they have is that there has not been a tech increase since R11. Just incremental increases in the ability to adjust. For me, that's just not enough.

I've been very satisfied with TM drivers going back to 510TP. But what is truly the game changer here?

[WVP]

stage, with these short product cycles, how do you bring anything more than incremental change from year to year?

The big golf OEM's are looking like car companies now, minor changes for 3-5 years and after that design gets stale bringing out the whole new model.

Not just TMAG, could be talking about any of the OEM's....

[scottvw13]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1356697056' post='6128151']
stage, with these short product cycles, how do you bring anything more than incremental change from year to year?

The big golf OEM's are looking like car companies now, minor changes for 3-5 years and after that design gets stale bringing out the whole new model.

Not just TMAG, could be talking about any of the OEM's....
[/quote]

That's a great analogy.

I wonder how often certain features are developed into the first generation of a new model but held back for a year or two so the manufacturer has something to spice up future sales.

[mmack067]

[quote name='scottvw13' timestamp='1356698425' post='6128195']
[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1356697056' post='6128151']
stage, with these short product cycles, how do you bring anything more than incremental change from year to year?

The big golf OEM's are looking like car companies now, minor changes for 3-5 years and after that design gets stale bringing out the whole new model.

Not just TMAG, could be talking about any of the OEM's....
[/quote]

That's a great analogy.

I wonder how often certain features are developed into the first generation of a new model but held back for a year or two so the manufacturer has something to spice up future sales.
[/quote]

I suspect that happens frequently, but not with game changer type of features. It's nice to have something in your back pocket, but you also have to be concerned about another OEM beating you to the market. There is still something to be said about first to market and making everyone else play catch up.

[deck]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1356679901' post='6127901']
[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1356677066' post='6127821']
@stage1350 - from your standpoint... what would TMAG need to change for you to purchase?

IMO - the change needs to come in sound and feel.
[/quote]

I want to see some engineering substance. The Nike offers a CG change that should create a huge spin reduction and increase forgiveness.

TMAG already had sleeves that could go +- 2°, so the new sleeve offers nothing. The R11s already offered +-2° face angle. 3° in the R1 is incrementally not exciting.
White was done in R11. Graphics don't excite me.


What I'd like:
More ability to move weight- 4 lugnuts
A clean package up top. You have white. You don't need the excessive graphics.
Some piece of tech that is a true game changer. Multi metals? Carbon fiber for more weight shifting? Slot technology?

The problem they have is that there has not been a tech increase since R11. Just incremental increases in the ability to adjust. For me, that's just not enough.

I've been very satisfied with TM drivers going back to 510TP. But what is truly the game changer here?
[/quote]

What do you think the price of a multi metal would cost? I think that is the next technology just would be way to expensive for the average consumer and that's why we haven't seen it yet.

[tbowles411]

[quote name='deck' timestamp='1356702667' post='6128383']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1356679901' post='6127901']
[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1356677066' post='6127821']
@stage1350 - from your standpoint... what would TMAG need to change for you to purchase?

IMO - the change needs to come in sound and feel.
[/quote]

I want to see some engineering substance. The Nike offers a CG change that should create a huge spin reduction and increase forgiveness.

TMAG already had sleeves that could go +- 2°, so the new sleeve offers nothing. The R11s already offered +-2° face angle. 3° in the R1 is incrementally not exciting.
White was done in R11. Graphics don't excite me.


What I'd like:
More ability to move weight- 4 lugnuts
A clean package up top. You have white. You don't need the excessive graphics.
Some piece of tech that is a true game changer. Multi metals? Carbon fiber for more weight shifting? Slot technology?

The problem they have is that there has not been a tech increase since R11. Just incremental increases in the ability to adjust. For me, that's just not enough.

I've been very satisfied with TM drivers going back to 510TP. But what is truly the game changer here?
[/quote]

What do you think the price of a multi metal would cost? I think that is the next technology just would be way to expensive for the average consumer and that's why we haven't seen it yet.
[/quote]
But you would see it in the Japanese market. They're willing to spend more for it and it would sell.

[deck]

So if that's the case why hasn't it been done yet? Has any OEM attempted it? I mean look at tour Cameron's. They are crazy expensive. Is the market worth it for OEM'S to do it?

[tbowles411]

[quote name='deck' timestamp='1356704158' post='6128477']
So if that's the case why hasn't it been done yet? Has any OEM attempted it? I mean look at tour Cameron's. They are crazy expensive. Is the market worth it for OEM'S to do it?
[/quote]
This reminds me of when we went to the Kingdom and spoke to them about stuff like this. They said the American market wouldn't take the price of something like that. Only the Japanese market would. They more exotic, the better. To them golf isn't just about the game itself, it's also a status thing. So frequently, they try things out there first. So if it does exist, it would be a Japanese or Tour only thing. It's one thing to make 1,000,000 units for retail. The expense would be huge for all parties. It's another to only make 100 for Tour players. Just an example.

[Caesar Palache]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.
[/quote]

I'm telling you, TMAG loves it and won't change and they aren't concerned one bit. It will sell, and sell a lot.

One thing we have to realized is we represent what like 10% of the golfing community. Maybe I'm way off with that number but so far there's only a couple hundred people say ugh to the paint. You aren't taking in the thousands of golfers who don't use this website. They want what's new and "better."

At least that's my opinion.

[stage1350]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1356697056' post='6128151']
stage, with these short product cycles, how do you bring anything more than incremental change from year to year?

The big golf OEM's are looking like car companies now, minor changes for 3-5 years and after that design gets stale bringing out the whole new model.

Not just TMAG, could be talking about any of the OEM's....
[/quote]

I agree the car analogy works. Who goes out and gets a new car each year? Or even every 6 months?

Better yet, go back to 1964. The OEMs start building performance peaking in 1970. As things continue to get better and better, the ruling bodies (The Fed through the EPA and the insurance companies) step in and that progress is curtailed. Burdened with all the new regulations, performance takes a backseat to looks. Instead of power, we get landau roofs and rich, Corinthian leather. Great names like the GTO are placed on a Nova. The Mustang Cobra II is a shadow of itself. And the Trans Am is playing second fiddle to Burt Reynolds.

That may be the future of drivers. No more tech thanks to golf's ruling bodies and just fluff from paintjobs. If the parallel holds, we have 10-15 years until tech returns.

[quote name='deck' timestamp='1356704158' post='6128477']
So if that's the case why hasn't it been done yet? Has any OEM attempted it? I mean look at tour Cameron's. They are crazy expensive. Is the market worth it for OEM'S to do it?
[/quote]

Tour Camerons are another example of style over substance. The ability for a 2012 Cameron Newport to improve putting over a 1995 Newport is zero. Collectors of Cameron are not collecting for performance gains, unless you count the change of body materials from carbon to stainless which will appease some feel based putters.

I'd argue that the market is not worth it for OEMs to do it. Similar to how Ping was when the Scottsdale Anser was THE putter to have, there is an OEM price and a collector price. No OEM, even Cameron, could expect sales success by trying to sell at speculator prices. And over time, just like Pings, persimmons, beanie babies, and baseball cards, that market will correct itself as well. To try and build a successful business on that model would be tough, if not impossible.

[aussie joe]

its amazing how people see things through different windows , i mean we could all look at a particular thing and see something different , do you agree ? a paint scheme is simply that , i bet you would still have a lambourgini if it was sky blue instead of red , yellow or silver ? as with anything in life the proof is in the pudding, or rather the tasting, as for us golfers its in the results, will it make us better players , if its just about looks then its just pose value, like the guy who has blades but cant hit past his 9 iron with any consistancy . sales and marketing are what nike and taylormade are brilliant at, leave that game up to them I'm / we are just golfers , players and hacks aspiring to be like our favourite tour pro 's or better , why do we have to bag everything , if we were all as solid as our strong beliefs in classics and tradition we would still be playing with persimon clubs , and all with bladed irons of the past which is all they pretty much had back then, if all we could get was bladed irons i wonder how many golfers there would be today ?
technology is making the game better in everyway , look at the number of people playing and loving the game, and its all through technology, better drivers , irons ,shafts , launch monitors and such ,easily obtainable adivice to beginers that gets them playing a round in no time, we can and have the right to like or not like something but i think we should at least keep it real and not go overboard without even seeing the equipment in real life let alone holding or hitting it ,

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='Caesar Palache' timestamp='1356705778' post='6128607']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.
[/quote]

I'm telling you, TMAG loves it and won't change and they aren't concerned one bit. It will sell, and sell a lot.

One thing we have to realized is we represent what like 10% of the golfing community. Maybe I'm way off with that number but so far there's only a couple hundred people say ugh to the paint. You aren't taking in the thousands of golfers who don't use this website. They want what's new and "better."

At least that's my opinion.
[/quote]

I am not saying that the driver won't sell. TMAG had a strangle hold on the driver/ fairway market for the last few years. This release is going to loosen that grip and give other OEM's an opportunity. I would love to see a statistic that shows driver/ fairway sales in 2012. I would bet that TMAG had a 60% increase over the #2 OEM. I would suspect that number to be cut in half in 2013. Now with that number cut in half this year and golfers testing new waters. Those same golfers may not come back to TMAG for a few years and that 30% will be cut down to 15% the following year....

I have shown the pictures of these woods to numerous golfers outside of WRX. Not one person has liked the new paint. Maybe it will grow on these same people the same way that an ugly chick with a big nose and crooked teeth that is funny, can cook and clean grows on a lazy man. And these same guys that disliked it initially will buy one, I am sure many well.

I don't care what TMAG told you on the trip. There is absolutely no way TMAG is not concerned about the initial reaction. They wold much rather prefer 100,000 'we love it's" over 50,000's "god that's ugly". They may not be panicking but make no mistake that this has got to be a topic for discussion.

[ohcanada17]

the R1 is 460 cc... face is similar to r11, just deeper.

The old tips will fit into RBZ Stage 2 but not R1... and the R1 will fit into RBZ stage 2...

driver adjust from 8* to 12*.... the increments are not by 1*... it varies...

There is no R1 fw or hybrid, just RBZ Stage 2 (tour = adjustbale, reg = epoxied) The RBZ Stage 2 tour head is different from the reg rbz stage 2 head.

Trust me, there is more technology here than any of the new drivers out there! Ooh its going to be a good year for TM! And I can NOT wait for the Tour season to start!!

[Pure745]

Still waiting for what technology differentiators are in the R1 other than adjustability and graphics on the crown.

[swanry30]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
I don't care what TMAG told you on the trip. There is absolutely no way TMAG is not concerned about the initial reaction. They wold much rather prefer 100,000 'we love it's" over 50,000's "god that's ugly". They may not be panicking but make no mistake that this has got to be a topic for discussion.
[/quote]

agreed - sorry for being cynical caesar... put yourself in the designers shoes... you get on golfwrx and read the comments from the community. how do you feel?

i have it on good word that there was concern.

and i also have it on good word that the r1 is one sick sick driver. i believe both comments.

[Pure745]

[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1356724007' post='6130249']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
I don't care what TMAG told you on the trip. There is absolutely no way TMAG is not concerned about the initial reaction. They wold much rather prefer 100,000 'we love it's" over 50,000's "god that's ugly". They may not be panicking but make no mistake that this has got to be a topic for discussion.
[/quote]

agreed - sorry for being cynical caesar... put yourself in the designers shoes... you get on golfwrx and read the comments from the community. how do you feel?

i have it on good word that there was concern.

and i also have it on good word that the r1 is one sick sick driver. i believe both comments.
[/quote]

Only Ceasar has inside information on the R1. Stop it.

[WVP]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1356706095' post='6128629']
[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1356697056' post='6128151']
stage, with these short product cycles, how do you bring anything more than incremental change from year to year?

The big golf OEM's are looking like car companies now, minor changes for 3-5 years and after that design gets stale bringing out the whole new model.

Not just TMAG, could be talking about any of the OEM's....
[/quote]

I agree the car analogy works. Who goes out and gets a new car each year? Or even every 6 months?

Better yet, go back to 1964. The OEMs start building performance peaking in 1970. As things continue to get better and better, the ruling bodies (The Fed through the EPA and the insurance companies) step in and that progress is curtailed. Burdened with all the new regulations, performance takes a backseat to looks. Instead of power, we get landau roofs and rich, Corinthian leather. Great names like the GTO are placed on a Nova. The Mustang Cobra II is a shadow of itself. And the Trans Am is playing second fiddle to Burt Reynolds.

That may be the future of drivers. No more tech thanks to golf's ruling bodies and just fluff from paintjobs. If the parallel holds, we have 10-15 years until tech returns.
[/quote]

Well you took my analogy and ran with it, but that's another great comparison from a different angle. Performance gets pretty much maxed out and you start getting sold on the small stuff.

[OUZO Power]

[quote name='Caesar Palache' timestamp='1356705778' post='6128607']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1356668390' post='6127373']
TMAG has got to be concerned about all the negative reactions in regards to the paint. I wonder how many if any discussions they are having behind closed doors about changing things?

I know others mentioned earlier that TMAG is not concerned. I think that has to be a front. Of course they are concerned with negative reactions that will affect their sales.
[/quote]

I'm telling you, TMAG loves it and won't change and they aren't concerned one bit. It will sell, and sell a lot.

One thing we have to realized is we represent what like 10% of the golfing community. Maybe I'm way off with that number but so far there's only a couple hundred people say ugh to the paint. You aren't taking in the thousands of golfers who don't use this website. They want what's new and "better."

At least that's my opinion.
[/quote]for a TM PR rep you would think you knew the numbers.

[StarFleetGolfer]

I can get over looks but not sound. If it sounds better than the r11s, I will game it.

[Zooch79]

Wow. You can adjust this driver 900 different ways... It looks like it has a compass on the bottom. but they wont let me anchor a putter against my tummy. I am bitter, yes.

[Str8Shot]

I do not think I posted this in this thread but I have spoke of it in other threads......this is one ugly driver.....to just look at and not play it actually looks kind of cool. Although to play with....I think I would be so set on the graphics on the crown I would swing and miss the ball!

[Elpresidente]

I thought the old tips are not interchangeable either with R1 and Rbz2. I have heard they have more teeth they do not fit.

[stage1350]

The photos I have seen show 12 splines on the R1 tips compared to 8 splines on the R9/R11/RBZ tips.

[chrisday83]

Just a thought on technology being "maxed out".

In F1 stringent regulations are in place restricting performance massively. Millions are still spent on R&D. Some cars are clearly better/faster than others.
If you ask the designers of those cars for details as to how they achieve this they will probably give you a lot of hot air and very few actual facts. Of those facts, we wouldn't understand 95% of them anyway.

The car is still faster...