My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[MelloYello]

> @LowAndLeft32 said:

> If you believe Bobby Clampett that "blades are the ultimate game improvement iron" then you can have both blades and GI irons all in one club!!

>

> On a serious note, what we need in these debates are hard facts which are hard if not impossible to come by. The two test that I think may help expand the discussion would be:

> 1) Iron Byron hitting a bunch of different shorts on different parts of the club face with both blades and Gis and then comparing the data for distance and dispersion.

> 2) The other test which is difficult to execute would be to play say 50 rounds with blades and GI to see if scores are impacted. This may help to more accurately start to somewhat answer if one type of clubs improves scores. This would help eliminate the feel arguments, the distance on mishits arguments, ect. Why feel, distance, and dispersion are important and easy to talk about, they don't explain what type of score you get!

>

 

I agree with #1 but once you have actual robot data to discuss, I think you have everything you need for a debate.

 

If we're interested in comparing actual experiences, we don't need robot data. People can simply go buy both and try them out. Good sets are cheap and readily available on Ebay. It's not like it's hard to try out a decent set of blades in 2019.

 

While I would love to settle the argument with robot data, I think people ultimately obsess too much about the potential difference in shots. While we do care about that, the big picture needs to involve questions like the following:

 

(#1)

Can a particular novice handle getting constant negative feedback from his/her golf clubs? At what point does maximizing feedback become a distraction that might lead the developing playing to over-do their iron practice and cut short their driving, chipping and putting?

 

(#2)

To build upon that first question, let's say you have 1-hr each weekday to practice. Maybe that means you get to spend 25-minutes hitting balls with the rest on short game (both chipping & putting). Let's say you play 9 on Friday instead of going to the range and focus on playing with friends over the weekend. So you ultimately spend a total of 100 minutes per week on your long game (25-min Mon thru Thurs). Let's say 20 minutes is spent with driver, 15 with fairway, and 35 with wedges hitting various distances. So you're now looking at spending a grand total of 30-minutes per week hitting shots with your irons. While that's spread across various days (which helps), is 30-minutes of practice enough to justify those clubs? What if we double that? Is 60-minutes of practicing sufficient?

 

(#3)

Is it even fundamentally helpful to continue pushing a reverence for blades that comes mostly from posterity when today's elite players are increasingly embracing CBs? In short, why encourage someone to be a purist in 2019 when there's no advantage in that?

 

If we're truly golfers here, then we should care about golf shots. And until CBs become illegal, a great shot with a CB is still worth exactly the same as one with a MB. Encouraging people to consider the MB shot somehow better seems to me to be somewhat immature. You know, I used to think blades looked cooler than all other clubs. But with today's CBs I don't necessarily feel that way. Now that I don't really have a bias towards MBs I have to say, looking back, obsessing about blades all seems kind of pointless.

 

I would never think bad about a playing partner who was using blades. Good for them. But the kind of talk you get online wherein guys are posting photos and stuff like that, well, we all know what that is. It's the LPGA fashion thread for the equipment forum.

 

[dpb5031]

I mentioned previously that I'm in the camp believing that practicing with compact and demanding MB blades can be really helpful. I recently moved to FL but lived in NJ for my entire life before the move. I had a hitting bay in my basement that I'd practice in almost daily over the winters. My most productive practice was with my Mizuno MP 33s and MP 67s. I only had a few of each, a 9, 7, and 6 iron.

 

The feedback is so acute with such a precise strike required to feel a "pure" one that it was especially helpful indoors where feel was my ONLY feedback, no visuals of ball flight, just sensory perception of sound/feel of the strike. Even player's CBs did not provide this same level of feedback and training benefit. And the type of ball used also affects feel/sound, so it is false that all clubs feel the same coming out of the middle... unless perhaps you have severely muted sensory perception? The blades also encourage a strike that requires some shaft lean to get that "pured" feeling, much like the TourStriker training club.

 

I play tournament golf and money matches though, and recognize that my Ping i200s provide some help/forgiveness on the course that MB blades do not...especially on days where my swing might not be firing on all cylinders. They feel great in their own way too, and I certainly know a good one when I strike it, it's just not as acute as with the blades. I've never had a problem transitioning from my indoor blade practice sessions to "on the course" with my i200s and in fact have added confidence when I transition.

 

For context, I'm a 51 year old low HC player and recently had 2 bogey-free rounds of 68 and 70 (i200s in play) and have won some local and state events and several club championships in the past. I'm all about score and my clubs are a hodgepodge of what I've found to work best to shoot the lowest possible score. Several clubs have been in my bag for over 15 years and my putter is about as old as me. I'd be the last guy anyone would identify as a "poser." ?

[MelloYello]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I mentioned previously that I'm in the camp believing that practicing with compact and demanding MB blades can be really helpful. I recently moved to FL but lived in NJ for my entire life before the move. I had a hitting bay in my basement that I'd practice in almost daily over the winters. My most productive practice was with my Mizuno MP 33s and MP 67s. I only had a few of each, a 9, 7, and 6 iron.

>

> The feedback is so acute with such a precise strike required to feel a "pure" one that it was especially helpful indoors where feel was my ONLY feedback, no visuals of ball flight, just sensory perception of sound/feel of the strike. Even player's CBs did not provide this same level of feedback and training benefit. And the type of ball used also affects feel/sound, so it is false that all clubs feel the same coming out of the middle... unless perhaps you have severely muted sensory perception? The blades also encourage a strike that requires some shaft lean to get that "pured" feeling, much like the TourStriker training club.

>

> I play tournament golf and money matches though, and recognize that my Ping i200s provide some help/forgiveness on the course that MB blades do not...especially on days where my swing might not be firing on all cylinders. They feel great in their own way too, and I certainly know a good one when I strike it, it's just not as acute as with the blades. I've never had a problem transitioning from my indoor blade practice sessions to "on the course" with my i200s and in fact have added confidence when I transition.

>

> For context, I'm a 51 year old low HC player and recently had 2 bogey-free rounds of 68 and 70 (i200s in play) and have won some local and state events and several club championships in the past. I'm all about score and my clubs are a hodgepodge of what I've found to work best to shoot the lowest possible score. Several clubs have been in my bag for over 15 years and my putter is about as old as me. I'd be the last guy anyone would identify as a "poser." ?

 

Very impressive!

 

While your example certainly provides some evidence that blades can be helpful (which I agree with) it also should be taken as evidence that even a great player has to constantly maintain their swing with daily practice.

 

How many mid-handicaps are beating balls daily in their garage? My guess is not many. If a mid-handicap told me he'd be practicing his irons every single day in ideal conditions then I'd probably encourage that. Then again, most of those guys aren't practicing that much and their perspective is not the same as someone who's out there breaking par.

 

Surprised to hear you go back and forth though. I wouldn't expect someone of your caliber to do that TBH.

[dpb5031]

We all have off days. The Pings are more forgiving through the turf if my swing gets a tad steep, and I still have enough slight mis-hits to value the forgiveness (mostly in terms of carry distance consistency) that the Pings provide over the MB blades. I.e.: A slight miss over water into a headwind with the Pings clears the water whereas the Mizuno shot would likely be swimming...lol! Hell, plenty of Tour players now use CBs in their longer irons for this very reason, even if they have true MB blades in their short and mid irons.

 

Edit: to add that I'm a high ball flight & pretty high spin player and the i200s lower spin is also helpful for MY game v. playing spinnier MB blades.

[Nard_S]

Double digit caps want to improve their game? Spend time with putter, wedge. Get to your next level in short game first, then go after tee game. Finally worry about irons whether their SGI or or old school blades. Go next level w/ wedge and driver, the approach shot by default gets better. I play blades, played to a 6-7 going once a week and never practicing. Might have gotten below 5 if I had GI in irons or just followed my own advice above. Been revamping my swing without a Pro for last several years. I hit on average 200-500 balls a week (year round),, increased swing speed and consistency and finally have some grounding in solid swing mechanics, and have shed some really awful swing faults. Could I have done it with a PCB type club, sure. Would I have enjoyed the grind as much? No way. MB's are not for everybody, but calling people "poser" for carrying them amounts than IAD in a glass house around here. What's not poser about guys stacking $1500 of new bling in their bag every year, or the $400 TX shafts they carry or the 4 wedges and laser finder they need to dial in less than 120 yard shots. When Speith was hot everyone had AP2's in bag, now he's not on to new latest and greatest bling all in the humble pursuit of game improvement. Yeah, no posing in golf except for blade guy, right.

[MelloYello]

Triggered! Haha ;)

[GolfChannel]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I mentioned previously that I'm in the camp believing that practicing with compact and demanding MB blades can be really helpful. I recently moved to FL but lived in NJ for my entire life before the move. I had a hitting bay in my basement that I'd practice in almost daily over the winters. My most productive practice was with my Mizuno MP 33s and MP 67s. I only had a few of each, a 9, 7, and 6 iron.

>

> The feedback is so acute with such a precise strike required to feel a "pure" one that it was especially helpful indoors where feel was my ONLY feedback, no visuals of ball flight, just sensory perception of sound/feel of the strike. Even player's CBs did not provide this same level of feedback and training benefit. And the type of ball used also affects feel/sound, so it is false that all clubs feel the same coming out of the middle... unless perhaps you have severely muted sensory perception? The blades also encourage a strike that requires some shaft lean to get that "pured" feeling, much like the TourStriker training club.

>

> I play tournament golf and money matches though, and recognize that my Ping i200s provide some help/forgiveness on the course that MB blades do not...especially on days where my swing might not be firing on all cylinders. They feel great in their own way too, and I certainly know a good one when I strike it, it's just not as acute as with the blades. I've never had a problem transitioning from my indoor blade practice sessions to "on the course" with my i200s and in fact have added confidence when I transition.

>

> For context, I'm a 51 year old low HC player and recently had 2 bogey-free rounds of 68 and 70 (i200s in play) and have won some local and state events and several club championships in the past. I'm all about score and my clubs are a hodgepodge of what I've found to work best to shoot the lowest possible score. Several clubs have been in my bag for over 15 years and my putter is about as old as me. I'd be the last guy anyone would identify as a "poser." ?

 

I subscribe to the same philosophy, the only thing I have wondered lately is if the difference in shaft type has played an issue. My practice with the MB's is not always translating that practice to the easier clubs to hit, but the shafts are much different than one another.

[dpb5031]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I mentioned previously that I'm in the camp believing that practicing with compact and demanding MB blades can be really helpful. I recently moved to FL but lived in NJ for my entire life before the move. I had a hitting bay in my basement that I'd practice in almost daily over the winters. My most productive practice was with my Mizuno MP 33s and MP 67s. I only had a few of each, a 9, 7, and 6 iron.

> >

> > The feedback is so acute with such a precise strike required to feel a "pure" one that it was especially helpful indoors where feel was my ONLY feedback, no visuals of ball flight, just sensory perception of sound/feel of the strike. Even player's CBs did not provide this same level of feedback and training benefit. And the type of ball used also affects feel/sound, so it is false that all clubs feel the same coming out of the middle... unless perhaps you have severely muted sensory perception? The blades also encourage a strike that requires some shaft lean to get that "pured" feeling, much like the TourStriker training club.

> >

> > I play tournament golf and money matches though, and recognize that my Ping i200s provide some help/forgiveness on the course that MB blades do not...especially on days where my swing might not be firing on all cylinders. They feel great in their own way too, and I certainly know a good one when I strike it, it's just not as acute as with the blades. I've never had a problem transitioning from my indoor blade practice sessions to "on the course" with my i200s and in fact have added confidence when I transition.

> >

> > For context, I'm a 51 year old low HC player and recently had 2 bogey-free rounds of 68 and 70 (i200s in play) and have won some local and state events and several club championships in the past. I'm all about score and my clubs are a hodgepodge of what I've found to work best to shoot the lowest possible score. Several clubs have been in my bag for over 15 years and my putter is about as old as me. I'd be the last guy anyone would identify as a "poser." ?

>

> I subscribe to the same philosophy, the only thing I have wondered lately is if the difference in shaft type has played an issue. My practice with the MB's is not always translating that practice to the easier clubs to hit, but the shafts are much different than one another.

 

It's helpful to have the same shaft but not 100% necessary IMO. My Mizuno practice blades all have S300s in them, which is what I used for my gamers until recently. My i200s have Modus 105x. I've never had a problem switching from one to the other, but perhaps besides about 15g in weight the Nippons have a similar profile...I'm not sure?

[toc]

Read a lot of this thread, still don’t care what clubs other people play. Seems like a lot of people don’t understand what ball striking means though

[Pepperturbo]

> @revanant said:

> > @pinestreetgolf said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > I can say from personal experience, learning the game with blades helped me to be the low-single-digit player I am today and I am chasing up on 70. That may not be the belief for others though. I still bring out the blades now and again too. Additionally, when learning I was at the range hitting over 1k balls per week and had a long-term golf game plan when most others didn't think it was important.

> > >

> > > Yes, in the beginning, I didn't have the short game yet, so strokes stacked up at times. That's when I reminded myself of my strategic plan. Whether I lost a game and paid up was unimportant. Eventually, however, that aspect of the game turned around in my favor, so when I mis-hit an iron and ball came up short, a wedge shot tight and tap in saved par or got me a birdie on Par 5's.

> > >

> > > Whether someone learns with blades or CB's depends on their motivation and perception of the golf or the game. To some people, even mid-high caps, it's all about score, not so much execution. Maybe that's why some people I know that remain mid-high caps. To others like myself, there is no drudgery in golf. It's about learning to properly execute a shot or hitting the ball using the sweet spot on the club face. Still today, as long as I execute my planned shot scoring result takes care of itself. My 2cents. B)

> >

> > Hey Pepper, we've argued in the past, but this is not an attempt at questioning you, but I legitimately want to understand this. You hit "thousands of balls" a week. Don't you think you would have gotten pretty good no matter what you used? Why do you think the blades part helped so much, as opposed to the thousands of balls part? You think you'd have progressed significantly slower if you hit something like a Lynx player's CB instead of a straight Mizzy?

> So, I've lived above a golf simulator for a few months now. I've tested a bunch of different sets: Adams Idea Tech V4, Titleist AP1 716, Mizuno T-Zoid Pro, JPX 900 Tour, Callaway Apex MB, Mizuno MP-4, Mizuno MP-69, and Ben Hogan Apex Redlines.

>

> I'm a bit of a sweeper with an in-to-out swingpath. The big eye opener was the difference between the relatively narrow soled T-Zoid Pros vs. the AP1 and Adams. Practicing with the T-Zoid cleaned up my ballstriking within about 2 hours of range practice with it, in a way that hours with the AP1 and Adams did not. If I had to guess, it's because poor strikes have a very different result from a good strike--typically a club or two shorter with a lot less height, but not so far offline because the ball dies faster. I found practicing with the T-zoid improved my strike, because it narrowed down what a good strike should look and feel like and gave me feedback on what I should try and repeat. In short, it really has worked for me. I've also hit the more SGI irons back to back against MBs and players CBs--I'm simply a better ball striker with the smaller irons with a less bulky sole.

>

> As for T-Zoids vs. the other irons I've hit--it's less of a difference in forgiveness, and mostly a difference in feel. The T-zoids actually sting on a poor strike, as do the MP-68s. More modern blades like the MP-4 and Callaway Apex MB do not. Neither do the Hogan Apex Redlines--they play almost identically to the Callaway Apex MB in feel, though I think the higher lofts and lighter Apex shaft give me much more height. And for whatever reason, despite weaker lofts, I hit the Hogan Redlines as far as my MP-4s and the Callaway Apex MBs, and farther than the JPX 900 Tour and Mizuno T-Zoids by a club. However, the more important point is that I'm comfortable reaching for the next club down in my bag if I need more distance, in a way that I wasn't before practicing with non-GI irons.

>

> So, long story short, my ball striking has improved dramatically with less forgiving irons, despite a similar amount of steady practice, where the only change was the type of iron I was practicing with.

 

Long time back I experienced a similar condition. I have always tended to sweep the ball as opposed to digging. Reason tight lies never bother me but that's another subject. Anyhow, as stated I began with Pings. What I noticed was with a miss the club head tended to bounce into the ball. Later I learned that was the result of more bounce, camber and wide sole. Other misses were influenced by their blunt leading edges. When I switched to Mizuno blades with narrow, flatter soles and sharper leading edges sweeping the ball was made easier and I had fewer misses. I was still able to apply sweeper swing plane yet still scrap the top of the turf creating a shallow divot in front of the ball. Also, it was easier to control trajectory. Knowing how to sweep the ball and scrap really helps when playing tight fast fairways.

[Pepperturbo]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @LowAndLeft32 said:

> > If you believe Bobby Clampett that "blades are the ultimate game improvement iron" then you can have both blades and GI irons all in one club!!

> >

> > On a serious note, what we need in these debates are hard facts which are hard if not impossible to come by. The two test that I think may help expand the discussion would be:

> > 1) Iron Byron hitting a bunch of different shorts on different parts of the club face with both blades and Gis and then comparing the data for distance and dispersion.

> > 2) The other test which is difficult to execute would be to play say 50 rounds with blades and GI to see if scores are impacted. This may help to more accurately start to somewhat answer if one type of clubs improves scores. This would help eliminate the feel arguments, the distance on mishits arguments, ect. Why feel, distance, and dispersion are important and easy to talk about, they don't explain what type of score you get!

> >

>

> I agree with #1 but once you have actual robot data to discuss, I think you have everything you need for a debate.

>

> If we're interested in comparing actual experiences, we don't need robot data. People can simply go buy both and try them out. Good sets are cheap and readily available on Ebay. It's not like it's hard to try out a decent set of blades in 2019.

>

> While I would love to settle the argument with robot data, I think people ultimately obsess too much about the potential difference in shots. While we do care about that, the big picture needs to involve questions like the following:

>

> (#1)

> Can a particular novice handle getting constant negative feedback from his/her golf clubs? At what point does maximizing feedback become a distraction that might lead the developing playing to over-do their iron practice and cut short their driving, chipping and putting?

>

> (#2)

> To build upon that first question, let's say you have 1-hr each weekday to practice. Maybe that means you get to spend 25-minutes hitting balls with the rest on short game (both chipping & putting). Let's say you play 9 on Friday instead of going to the range and focus on playing with friends over the weekend. So you ultimately spend a total of 100 minutes per week on your long game (25-min Mon thru Thurs). Let's say 20 minutes is spent with driver, 15 with fairway, and 35 with wedges hitting various distances. So you're now looking at spending a grand total of 30-minutes per week hitting shots with your irons. While that's spread across various days (which helps), is 30-minutes of practice enough to justify those clubs? What if we double that? Is 60-minutes of practicing sufficient?

>

> (#3)

> Is it even fundamentally helpful to continue pushing a reverence for blades that comes mostly from posterity when today's elite players are increasingly embracing CBs? In short, why encourage someone to be a purist in 2019 when there's no advantage in that?

>

> If we're truly golfers here, then we should care about golf shots. And until CBs become illegal, a great shot with a CB is still worth exactly the same as one with a MB. Encouraging people to consider the MB shot somehow better seems to me to be somewhat immature. You know, I used to think blades looked cooler than all other clubs. But with today's CBs I don't necessarily feel that way. Now that I don't really have a bias towards MBs I have to say, looking back, obsessing about blades all seems kind of pointless.

>

> I would never think bad about a playing partner who was using blades. Good for them. But the kind of talk you get online wherein guys are posting photos and stuff like that, well, we all know what that is. It's the LPGA fashion thread for the equipment forum.

>

 

Your first question has limited merit while not saying much for the character, maturity maybe even judgment of the novice. It infers he's not self-confident or committed to his choice of equipment and incapable of learning from mistakes. If someone chooses to play more difficult MB's they should have the characteristics to cope with and eventually convert negative feedback into a positive learning experience and have the tenacity to stick with their convictions. Done long enough their skill improves to the point positive feedback is reinforced and commonplace and negative feedback become fewer and instructional. If someone has those attributes I have no problem confirming their choice of club, regardless of design.

 

I agree a good shot is a good shot. Doesn't matter what club head design the shot was made with. The only thing that matters is the user is confident in his choice of clubs and mature enough to trust in his own judgment and motivation and not care what others think. Having said that it's clear to me, most of the people that chose MB's do so with purpose, conviction and have a game plan. I was one. Whether others disagree with their choice means nothing. Besides, nobody should care what passerby's think. Those that lack those attributes are the ones that flaunt equipment and typically behave like club ho's. They move on to momentarily obsess over some other club and knock others for their choices.

[MelloYello]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @LowAndLeft32 said:

> > > If you believe Bobby Clampett that "blades are the ultimate game improvement iron" then you can have both blades and GI irons all in one club!!

> > >

> > > On a serious note, what we need in these debates are hard facts which are hard if not impossible to come by. The two test that I think may help expand the discussion would be:

> > > 1) Iron Byron hitting a bunch of different shorts on different parts of the club face with both blades and Gis and then comparing the data for distance and dispersion.

> > > 2) The other test which is difficult to execute would be to play say 50 rounds with blades and GI to see if scores are impacted. This may help to more accurately start to somewhat answer if one type of clubs improves scores. This would help eliminate the feel arguments, the distance on mishits arguments, ect. Why feel, distance, and dispersion are important and easy to talk about, they don't explain what type of score you get!

> > >

> >

> > I agree with #1 but once you have actual robot data to discuss, I think you have everything you need for a debate.

> >

> > If we're interested in comparing actual experiences, we don't need robot data. People can simply go buy both and try them out. Good sets are cheap and readily available on Ebay. It's not like it's hard to try out a decent set of blades in 2019.

> >

> > While I would love to settle the argument with robot data, I think people ultimately obsess too much about the potential difference in shots. While we do care about that, the big picture needs to involve questions like the following:

> >

> > (#1)

> > Can a particular novice handle getting constant negative feedback from his/her golf clubs? At what point does maximizing feedback become a distraction that might lead the developing playing to over-do their iron practice and cut short their driving, chipping and putting?

> >

> > (#2)

> > To build upon that first question, let's say you have 1-hr each weekday to practice. Maybe that means you get to spend 25-minutes hitting balls with the rest on short game (both chipping & putting). Let's say you play 9 on Friday instead of going to the range and focus on playing with friends over the weekend. So you ultimately spend a total of 100 minutes per week on your long game (25-min Mon thru Thurs). Let's say 20 minutes is spent with driver, 15 with fairway, and 35 with wedges hitting various distances. So you're now looking at spending a grand total of 30-minutes per week hitting shots with your irons. While that's spread across various days (which helps), is 30-minutes of practice enough to justify those clubs? What if we double that? Is 60-minutes of practicing sufficient?

> >

> > (#3)

> > Is it even fundamentally helpful to continue pushing a reverence for blades that comes mostly from posterity when today's elite players are increasingly embracing CBs? In short, why encourage someone to be a purist in 2019 when there's no advantage in that?

> >

> > If we're truly golfers here, then we should care about golf shots. And until CBs become illegal, a great shot with a CB is still worth exactly the same as one with a MB. Encouraging people to consider the MB shot somehow better seems to me to be somewhat immature. You know, I used to think blades looked cooler than all other clubs. But with today's CBs I don't necessarily feel that way. Now that I don't really have a bias towards MBs I have to say, looking back, obsessing about blades all seems kind of pointless.

> >

> > I would never think bad about a playing partner who was using blades. Good for them. But the kind of talk you get online wherein guys are posting photos and stuff like that, well, we all know what that is. It's the LPGA fashion thread for the equipment forum.

> >

>

> Your first question has limited merit while not saying much for the character, maturity maybe even judgment of the novice. It infers he's not self-confident or committed to his choice of equipment and incapable of learning from mistakes. If someone chooses to play more difficult MB's they should have the characteristics to cope with and eventually convert negative feedback into a positive learning experience and have the tenacity to stick with their convictions. Done long enough their skill improves to the point positive feedback is reinforced and commonplace and negative feedback become fewer and instructional. If someone has those attributes I have no problem confirming their choice of club, regardless of design.

>

> I agree a good shot is a good shot. Doesn't matter what club head design the shot was made with. The only thing that matters is the user is confident in his choice of clubs and mature enough to trust in his own judgment and motivation and not care what others think. Having said that it's clear to me, most of the people that chose MB's do so with purpose, conviction and have a game plan. I was one. Whether others disagree with their choice means nothing. Besides, nobody should care what passerby's think. Those that lack those attributes are the ones that flaunt equipment and typically behave like club ho's. They move on to momentarily obsess over some other club and knock others for their choices.

 

Eh, I think you misinterpreted the subtlety of point #1.

 

It's about how much feedback is _necessary_ to play effective golf, not whether feedback itself is necessary or whether someone is 'convicted enough' to withstand the nastiest vibration.

 

I think if we're handing out advice on forums, it should be advice that we believe optimizes the time expenditure of the amateur in becoming scratch or better. To that end, blades provide (_IMHO_) more feedback than is necessary.

 

Thus one can easily see why I don't buy into the notion of mid-handicaps telling me they think they're improving with blades in a way they can't otherwise.

 

I'm not a moron. I used them too as I was a developing player. And just like everyone else, I used them because of the unique feel and the superb looks. That's why they sell to the amateur market. But if someone is truly a golf purist interested only in improving their scoring they won't in principle flock to blades, nor should they.

 

Understanding the swing and improving your mechanics does not mean one has to play the most unforgiving club imaginable.

[Pepperturbo]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @LowAndLeft32 said:

> > > > If you believe Bobby Clampett that "blades are the ultimate game improvement iron" then you can have both blades and GI irons all in one club!!

> > > >

> > > > On a serious note, what we need in these debates are hard facts which are hard if not impossible to come by. The two test that I think may help expand the discussion would be:

> > > > 1) Iron Byron hitting a bunch of different shorts on different parts of the club face with both blades and Gis and then comparing the data for distance and dispersion.

> > > > 2) The other test which is difficult to execute would be to play say 50 rounds with blades and GI to see if scores are impacted. This may help to more accurately start to somewhat answer if one type of clubs improves scores. This would help eliminate the feel arguments, the distance on mishits arguments, ect. Why feel, distance, and dispersion are important and easy to talk about, they don't explain what type of score you get!

> > > >

> > >

> > > I agree with #1 but once you have actual robot data to discuss, I think you have everything you need for a debate.

> > >

> > > If we're interested in comparing actual experiences, we don't need robot data. People can simply go buy both and try them out. Good sets are cheap and readily available on Ebay. It's not like it's hard to try out a decent set of blades in 2019.

> > >

> > > While I would love to settle the argument with robot data, I think people ultimately obsess too much about the potential difference in shots. While we do care about that, the big picture needs to involve questions like the following:

> > >

> > > (#1)

> > > Can a particular novice handle getting constant negative feedback from his/her golf clubs? At what point does maximizing feedback become a distraction that might lead the developing playing to over-do their iron practice and cut short their driving, chipping and putting?

> > >

> > > (#2)

> > > To build upon that first question, let's say you have 1-hr each weekday to practice. Maybe that means you get to spend 25-minutes hitting balls with the rest on short game (both chipping & putting). Let's say you play 9 on Friday instead of going to the range and focus on playing with friends over the weekend. So you ultimately spend a total of 100 minutes per week on your long game (25-min Mon thru Thurs). Let's say 20 minutes is spent with driver, 15 with fairway, and 35 with wedges hitting various distances. So you're now looking at spending a grand total of 30-minutes per week hitting shots with your irons. While that's spread across various days (which helps), is 30-minutes of practice enough to justify those clubs? What if we double that? Is 60-minutes of practicing sufficient?

> > >

> > > (#3)

> > > Is it even fundamentally helpful to continue pushing a reverence for blades that comes mostly from posterity when today's elite players are increasingly embracing CBs? In short, why encourage someone to be a purist in 2019 when there's no advantage in that?

> > >

> > > If we're truly golfers here, then we should care about golf shots. And until CBs become illegal, a great shot with a CB is still worth exactly the same as one with a MB. Encouraging people to consider the MB shot somehow better seems to me to be somewhat immature. You know, I used to think blades looked cooler than all other clubs. But with today's CBs I don't necessarily feel that way. Now that I don't really have a bias towards MBs I have to say, looking back, obsessing about blades all seems kind of pointless.

> > >

> > > I would never think bad about a playing partner who was using blades. Good for them. But the kind of talk you get online wherein guys are posting photos and stuff like that, well, we all know what that is. It's the LPGA fashion thread for the equipment forum.

> > >

> >

> > Your first question has limited merit while not saying much for the character, maturity maybe even judgment of the novice. It infers he's not self-confident or committed to his choice of equipment and incapable of learning from mistakes. If someone chooses to play more difficult MB's they should have the characteristics to cope with and eventually convert negative feedback into a positive learning experience and have the tenacity to stick with their convictions. Done long enough their skill improves to the point positive feedback is reinforced and commonplace and negative feedback become fewer and instructional. If someone has those attributes I have no problem confirming their choice of club, regardless of design.

> >

> > I agree a good shot is a good shot. Doesn't matter what club head design the shot was made with. The only thing that matters is the user is confident in his choice of clubs and mature enough to trust in his own judgment and motivation and not care what others think. Having said that it's clear to me, most of the people that chose MB's do so with purpose, conviction and have a game plan. I was one. Whether others disagree with their choice means nothing. Besides, nobody should care what passerby's think. Those that lack those attributes are the ones that flaunt equipment and typically behave like club ho's. They move on to momentarily obsess over some other club and knock others for their choices.

>

> Eh, I think you misinterpreted the subtlety of point #1.

>

> It's about how much feedback is _necessary_ to play effective golf, not whether feedback itself it necessary or whether someone is 'convicted enough' to withstand it.

>

> I think if we're handing out advice on forums, it should be advice that we believe optimizes the time expenditure of the amateur in becoming scratch or better. To that end, blades provide (_IMHO_) more feedback than is necessary.

>

> Thus one can easily see why I don't buy into the notion of mid-handicaps telling me they think they're improving with blades in a way they can't otherwise.

>

> I'm not a moron. I used them too. They feel great and they look superb. That's why they sell.

 

No, I didn't. The problem is "nobody", least of all on a discussion board, has the capacity to make that distinction regarding a novices ability to handle feedback or how much is too much. It may have been too much for you or someone you actually know but broad brushing that conclusion IMO exceeds boundary. Just because a person can improve with CB's doesn't mean they shouldn't choose the club-head design of their choice and do so expecting a different process.

 

I repeat when I took up the game at 40 I started with off-the-shelve Pings and eight or some months later switched to Mizuno blades and reached single digit in under five years and low single digit a few years later. I am almost 70, still play reasonable long yardages, hit 2 iron over 200yds and run circles around others on the golf course, on a bike and office. Yet, many think because of age that couldn't be possible so don't advise it's possible. Instead of negative don't do it, it's easier another way my PGA relative advised me on the pros and cons blades and the Balata ball and said go for it. Advice can either be negative based on bias or reinforcing without bias, I always chose the latter. Have a good day.

[MelloYello]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @LowAndLeft32 said:

> > > > > If you believe Bobby Clampett that "blades are the ultimate game improvement iron" then you can have both blades and GI irons all in one club!!

> > > > >

> > > > > On a serious note, what we need in these debates are hard facts which are hard if not impossible to come by. The two test that I think may help expand the discussion would be:

> > > > > 1) Iron Byron hitting a bunch of different shorts on different parts of the club face with both blades and Gis and then comparing the data for distance and dispersion.

> > > > > 2) The other test which is difficult to execute would be to play say 50 rounds with blades and GI to see if scores are impacted. This may help to more accurately start to somewhat answer if one type of clubs improves scores. This would help eliminate the feel arguments, the distance on mishits arguments, ect. Why feel, distance, and dispersion are important and easy to talk about, they don't explain what type of score you get!

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I agree with #1 but once you have actual robot data to discuss, I think you have everything you need for a debate.

> > > >

> > > > If we're interested in comparing actual experiences, we don't need robot data. People can simply go buy both and try them out. Good sets are cheap and readily available on Ebay. It's not like it's hard to try out a decent set of blades in 2019.

> > > >

> > > > While I would love to settle the argument with robot data, I think people ultimately obsess too much about the potential difference in shots. While we do care about that, the big picture needs to involve questions like the following:

> > > >

> > > > (#1)

> > > > Can a particular novice handle getting constant negative feedback from his/her golf clubs? At what point does maximizing feedback become a distraction that might lead the developing playing to over-do their iron practice and cut short their driving, chipping and putting?

> > > >

> > > > (#2)

> > > > To build upon that first question, let's say you have 1-hr each weekday to practice. Maybe that means you get to spend 25-minutes hitting balls with the rest on short game (both chipping & putting). Let's say you play 9 on Friday instead of going to the range and focus on playing with friends over the weekend. So you ultimately spend a total of 100 minutes per week on your long game (25-min Mon thru Thurs). Let's say 20 minutes is spent with driver, 15 with fairway, and 35 with wedges hitting various distances. So you're now looking at spending a grand total of 30-minutes per week hitting shots with your irons. While that's spread across various days (which helps), is 30-minutes of practice enough to justify those clubs? What if we double that? Is 60-minutes of practicing sufficient?

> > > >

> > > > (#3)

> > > > Is it even fundamentally helpful to continue pushing a reverence for blades that comes mostly from posterity when today's elite players are increasingly embracing CBs? In short, why encourage someone to be a purist in 2019 when there's no advantage in that?

> > > >

> > > > If we're truly golfers here, then we should care about golf shots. And until CBs become illegal, a great shot with a CB is still worth exactly the same as one with a MB. Encouraging people to consider the MB shot somehow better seems to me to be somewhat immature. You know, I used to think blades looked cooler than all other clubs. But with today's CBs I don't necessarily feel that way. Now that I don't really have a bias towards MBs I have to say, looking back, obsessing about blades all seems kind of pointless.

> > > >

> > > > I would never think bad about a playing partner who was using blades. Good for them. But the kind of talk you get online wherein guys are posting photos and stuff like that, well, we all know what that is. It's the LPGA fashion thread for the equipment forum.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Your first question has limited merit while not saying much for the character, maturity maybe even judgment of the novice. It infers he's not self-confident or committed to his choice of equipment and incapable of learning from mistakes. If someone chooses to play more difficult MB's they should have the characteristics to cope with and eventually convert negative feedback into a positive learning experience and have the tenacity to stick with their convictions. Done long enough their skill improves to the point positive feedback is reinforced and commonplace and negative feedback become fewer and instructional. If someone has those attributes I have no problem confirming their choice of club, regardless of design.

> > >

> > > I agree a good shot is a good shot. Doesn't matter what club head design the shot was made with. The only thing that matters is the user is confident in his choice of clubs and mature enough to trust in his own judgment and motivation and not care what others think. Having said that it's clear to me, most of the people that chose MB's do so with purpose, conviction and have a game plan. I was one. Whether others disagree with their choice means nothing. Besides, nobody should care what passerby's think. Those that lack those attributes are the ones that flaunt equipment and typically behave like club ho's. They move on to momentarily obsess over some other club and knock others for their choices.

> >

> > Eh, I think you misinterpreted the subtlety of point #1.

> >

> > It's about how much feedback is _necessary_ to play effective golf, not whether feedback itself it necessary or whether someone is 'convicted enough' to withstand it.

> >

> > I think if we're handing out advice on forums, it should be advice that we believe optimizes the time expenditure of the amateur in becoming scratch or better. To that end, blades provide (_IMHO_) more feedback than is necessary.

> >

> > Thus one can easily see why I don't buy into the notion of mid-handicaps telling me they think they're improving with blades in a way they can't otherwise.

> >

> > I'm not a moron. I used them too. They feel great and they look superb. That's why they sell.

>

> No, I didn't. The problem is "nobody", least of all on a discussion board, has the capacity to make that distinction regarding a novices ability to handle feedback or how much is too much. It may have been too much for you or someone you actually know but broad brushing that conclusion IMO exceeds boundary. Just because a person can improve with CB's doesn't mean they shouldn't choose the club-head design of their choice and do so expecting a different process.

>

> I repeat when I took up the game at 40 I started with off-the-shelve Pings and eight or some months later switched to Mizuno blades and reached single digit in under five years and low single digit a few years later. I am almost 70, still play reasonable long yardages, hit 2 iron over 200yds and run circles around others on the golf course, on a bike and office. Yet, many think because of age that couldn't be possible so don't advise it's possible. Instead of negative don't do it, it's easier another way my PGA relative advised me on the pros and cons blades and the Balata ball and said go for it. Advice can either be negative based on bias or reinforcing without bias, I always chose the latter. Have a good day.

 

Think about what you're saying. It isn't logical. You don't think blades offer more feedback than is necessary to play effectively?

 

Then how can half the men on Tour (or whatever it is) who are literally the best in the world not to mention virtually _all_ the women get by without blades?

 

It would be absurd to say blades aren't overkill in the modern game. Of course they are. I don't have to show you why. It's obvious based on the tournament results every single week, all around the world.

 

Even guys like Tiger who've always used them still resort to the _"I just prefer the look and feel"_ defense, which again, is perfectly legit as far as I'm concerned.

 

But if a novice is asking me, I'll tell him that based on my experience, using blades isn't going to help or hurt you all that much. The kind of player that will get good can do it just as fine with virtually any small, forged CB as with a blade.

 

And anyone pushing the use of blades as a game improvement device versus pushing the novice to practice driving, chipping and putting is IMHO a horrible teacher.

 

Have you ever come across a teacher that said to his student, _'oh we've got to get you into some blades asap!'_ or does that sound as ludicrous to you as it does to me?

 

 

[BottleCap]

Just buy a single Mizuno MP series 3 iron and practice with that, that one club will give you all the feedback you need on your swing

[gbartko]

If you don't play blades you might as well just hit it with your purse.

[PlayfromtheBrain]

Blades have done more for me than just helping to improve ballstriking. Honestly, they brought me back to the game.

 

I played from the time I could carry a club until the end of high school, and was playing pretty well up until I went to college, but then it just became a reason to get drunk with friends and it stopped entirely for about 6 or 7 years. Always used GI hand me downs from the pops, and I was fine with that because the equipment were just tools and hardly important to me. That view of the game definitely has it's up sides, though. I saw guys use blades growing up but didn't take a second look. After school, there just wasn't enough there to get motivated to play again.

 

However, a few years ago, seeing my buddy wear out the center of some Titleist 710 MBs with worn out NO-1 grips got me a little interested in what Japan had to offer the game of golf and very interested in the slick look of players irons. Put those together and that's how I ended up with a well used set of MP-32s. If I had a strength when I was younger, it was my short game -the old cast irons that I used were just what got me close. I didn't put too much emphasis on perfect ballstriking. The 32s pushed me to practice harder in order to more frequently get the amazing feeling of flushing one in the sweet spot. Over the past few years I've worked on and improved my swing more than I ever did when I was young. I see the game differently now. I'm definitely more passionate about golf than I was back then. It's fun for me to build a bag with equipment that looks and feels great, and that usually involves blade irons.

 

This is why I really attribute my renewed love of the game mostly to blades. As bad as it sounds, I don't think the game itself would have been enough to get me back into the sport. I know that's going to sound odd to some people.

 

? THANKS, BLADES!!! YOU'RE THE BEST!!!?

[gbartko]

Do gun enthusiasts romanticize the blunderbuss or musket like the GI truthers do blades on golfwrx?

[PlayfromtheBrain]

> @gbartko said:

> Do gun enthusiasts romanticize the blunderbuss or musket like the GI truthers do blades on golfwrx?

 

Yes.

[Nard_S]

What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

[BiggErn]

> @Nard_S said:

> What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

 

The delusion that making something harder on yourself will somehow make you better.....eventually....maybe.....probably not. I guess if someone doesn’t achieve the result by a certain means then somehow the result isn’t as good. Lol. The result is the result no matter what.

[Nard_S]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

>

> The delusion that making something harder on yourself will somehow make you better.....eventually....maybe.....probably not. I guess if someone doesn’t achieve the result by a certain means then somehow the result isn’t as good. Lol. The result is the result no matter what.

Biggest drop in score came for me when i got tired of the OTT thin toe shot my Ping Eye's "forgave me" for. Put RAM Tour Grinds to work and in 4 months was shooting gross 82 after a decade of never breaking 90. I have a modern ball and modern Ti metals, it's plenty. I play a 6300 yard wooded track, do not need to hit a 7i for 200 yards, thank you. The great thing of going blades, you never blame the club, kinda like the girl you really dig "you're right dear, it's not you it's me". They're too damn classy to get the rap and they're too good when they're good. Everybody blathers on about the dark side of MB's. The truth, they're a lot fun once you accept them for what they are. I would quit the game before I went back to Eye 2's but if I stopped practicing I'll go Tour 900's or something like that. Until then, 1992 is calling me.

[gbartko]

Blade don't lie!

[gbartko]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

> >

> > The delusion that making something harder on yourself will somehow make you better.....eventually....maybe.....probably not. I guess if someone doesn’t achieve the result by a certain means then somehow the result isn’t as good. Lol. The result is the result no matter what.

> Biggest drop in score came for me when i got tired of the OTT thin toe shot my Ping Eye's "forgave me" for. Put RAM Tour Grinds to work and in 4 months was shooting gross 82 after a decade of never breaking 90. I have a modern ball and modern Ti metals, it's plenty. I play a 6300 yard wooded track, do not need to hit a 7i for 200 yards, thank you. The great thing of going blades, you never blame the club, kinda like the girl you really dig "you're right dear, it's not you it's me". They're too **** classy to get the rap and they're too good when they're good. Everybody blathers on about the dark side of MB's. The truth, they're a lot fun once you accept them for what they are. I would quit the game before I went back to Eye 2's but if I stopped practicing I'll go Tour 900's or something like that. Until then, 1992 is calling me.

 

That would be a good story for the book I'm writing: "Chicken Soup for the Blade Zealot's Soul". The first 50 buyers get a limited edition tyson lamb bookmark!

[Pacificgem]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

>

> The delusion that making something harder on yourself will somehow make you better.....eventually....maybe.....probably not. I guess if someone doesn’t achieve the result by a certain means then somehow the result isn’t as good. Lol. The result is the result no matter what.

 

Attempting something more difficult certainly makes you better, if you're able to rise to the challenge, not a new concept. Example...I've trained with weights for years, if you don't make it harder by using heavier weights, you don't see any gains. If you go to an extremely difficult course, as oppose to one that's easy to play, you either figure out how to become a better player or you just give up and stay at your level. Making things more difficult does make you better, in many aspects of life, including golf.....if you can rise to the challenge.

[BiggErn]

> @Pacificgem said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > What can be more romantic than getting a GIR on a OTT thin toed shot? " It's okay , you deserve it dear, you really tried".

> >

> > The delusion that making something harder on yourself will somehow make you better.....eventually....maybe.....probably not. I guess if someone doesn’t achieve the result by a certain means then somehow the result isn’t as good. Lol. The result is the result no matter what.

>

> Attempting something more difficult certainly makes you better, if you're able to rise to the challenge, not a new concept. Example...I've trained with weights for years, if you don't make it harder by using heavier weights, you don't see any gains. If you go to an extremely difficult course, as oppose to one that's easy to play, you either figure out how to become a better player or you just give up and stay at your level. Making things more difficult does make you better, in many aspects of life, including golf.....if you can rise to the challenge.

 

That’s another awful analogy that makes zero sense.

[Nard_S]

A good read would be something other than than droning you hear of how, new, improved cupped, springy face gizomotron with elastomaster injection launches the ball 2.4 yards further with a#6i. The stores are over run by the devotees of the game come every Spring. Hey, might take 0.2 off the index. It's more "fun".Wow, bitchin. Weird but the zealots are not the blades guys, it's the tech guys, it's "all tech is good tech mentality" that is pervasive, everywhere. I used to love computer tech and that stuff but look at what thee iPhone and twitter is doing to Culture. Oh wait you can't you're doing SM while ordering your coffee. I don't do data on the phone and it gets put down on weekends. There's a dark side to all things, there's a dark side to modernity, there's the known dark side of the familiar. People see the shadow of their enemy but rarely their own shadow when they follow their sun. On some level, MB's are my humble middle finger at all that. Stick with the devil I know.

[gbartko]

 

[bodhi555]

I've spent a couple of sessions at the range and had a quick 9 holes with my two 4 irons, the Pro Combo and the standard VR Pro, and for the first medal of the season on Sunday the MB will be going in the bag. Due to the shaft differences a perfectly struck shot with the Pro Combo is around 10 yards shorter and I'm getting around 5mph less ball speed, so will need to get the shaft changed and test again. However I'm really not seeing any compelling results to tempt me to get it changed straight away - it is no easier for me to launch, and I'm actually losing more distance on mishits than I am with the MB - short right with the CB, and pin high left with the MB.

 

Quite disappointing really, as from this thread I was sure the presence of a single CB in my bag would instantly transform me into a scratch golfer, but it looks like the one I tried needs just as good a swing put on it as my blade in order to perform properly. Who would have thunk it eh?

[dpb5031]

I don't understand how the naysayers here cannot see the potential value in practicing with a club that is more demanding than what they intend to play on the course. I've already explained my experience and how I incorporated blades into my practice regimen. I do not play blades on the course (though I easily could), but I firmly believe they can be a very effective part of a player's improvement plan, and you dont even need to buy a full set!

 

You can't fake it with a true MB blade. To achieve good ball flight and that coveted "pure" feel requires precision of strike of both the ball and subsequently the turf, and ample forward shaft lean at impact. A lot of good things must happen or you're gonna know it in your hands and by the flight of the ball. It's not a whole lot different than the TourStriker club, that BTW is pretty much universally acknowledged as being a very effective training aid.

 

Become reasonably proficient with a compact MB blade, and transitioning over to a more forgiving CB design is a piece of cake, physically and psychologically. I'm not advocating that a 12 HC should be PLAYING MB blades if his objective is to shoot the lowest score possible on the course, but as part of a practice/improvement plan they most certainly can help a player to improve his ballstriking.