My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[BiggErn]

> @"Dr. Hack" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @"Dr. Hack" said:

> > > Still getting a kick out of some of these responses. So eager to make fun of the high-handicapped blade users. Can't help but feel there must be some jealousy involved.

> > >

> > > I started playing 2 years ago. I'm a 15 hcp now and started using iBlades around 20 hcp. Not true blades, I know, but I use them for the reasons described above by many others.... They're fun to play with and demand good fundamentals. I have learned a lot from using them. Would I suggest this strategy for all people learning golf? Definitely not. But if you're obsessive like I am, you might find it to be a fun challenge and gratifying journey. It makes sense that using more demanding clubs could have benefits. After all, there are training aids in nearly every other sport (heavier bats, smaller balls, etc).

> > >

> > >

> > > On any given day might you lose a few strokes to the unforgivably of the blades? No doubt. In fact, I play my AP1's when the score counts. Nobody is trying to make the argument that blades will lead to lower scores with all things being equal. The interesting question to me: Is the same mid/high handicap player better off going into that game because he's been practicing with blades? Do the benefits outweigh the cons when you're talking about a rapid learning curve? I think they could.

> >

> > Your "jealousy" remark is laughable. Too bad the board isn't up to speed yet. The old board listed posters' handicaps - if they put them in their profiles. You'd see that most of the CB supporters are quite a bit better than mid-teens.

> >

> > Just for fun I'm going to recap some of the blade users remarks on this thread that "we" are so "jealous" about. Don't worry boyz and girls, I won't repeat the entire thread. LOL

> >

> > And I'll say right up front that there are some very good players that have commented and support blades. THEY ARE good enough to play 'em and more importantly, they have been playing for quite some time and have experience to back up their opinions.

> >

> > Anyway, with all due respect, some of the examples of high handicappers in this thread,,,,,

> >

> > 1) the OP, a 15 handicapper who "can't putt". He later posts he came from CBs to blades and his handicap came down from ~17 to ~15. So the obvious conclusion supporting his stance is it must be the blades, right ? But he does say "Currently, I play golf for ENJOYMENT not to get my handicap as close to 0 as possible". Great for him. and the CB guyz say "Terrific. Play whatever you want".

> >

> > Later on he posts about forgiveness being overrated and CB guyz "drinking the Kool Aid" and claims he's a "good ball striker,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, for his handicap level" (whatever that means). Personally, I think there are great, very good, good, average, etc........ ball strikers. For my handicap ? Makes no sense - and the clubs don't know what your handicap is,,,,,,,, or maybe they do after you hit 'em for a while. LOL

> >

> >

> > 2) Then we get a low teen handicapper that knows everything about equipment, knows every driver shaft's bend profile by heart,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and had his best round ever (78) with his BLADES. And in his very next cyber breath he tells us he hit 4 or 5 greens. He shot 78 because of his blades ?

> >

> >

> > 3) Then we have a 27 handicap talking about his "turf interaction".

> >

> >

> > 4) Then we have a guy who hasn't been playing all that long who says "my ball striking has improved dramatically with less forgiving irons, despite a similar amount of steady practice, where the only change was the type of iron I was practicing with". Then he tells us he's a "legitimate 27 handicapper".

> >

> > Not to mention that as beginners, in their first few years of learning and practicing, they can't HELP but improve, often rather dramatically. But it's one thing to go from 27 to 20, or 21 to 15 or so but after that ??? Not quite as easy.

> >

> > You yourself tell us " I started playing 2 years ago. I'm a 15 hcp now and started using iBlades around 20 hcp". Now you admit they're not true blades but they're not all that easy to hit but are you attributing your 5 stroke drop to the iBlades ? Sure sounds like it. Get back to us in another 2 years and see where you are - especially if you're not taking, or going to take some instruction. And even YOU play AP-1s "when it counts".

> >

> > I mean some of this stuff sounds like the fat old guy watching a ballerina on TV standing on her toes for a minute or 2 and saying to anyone who'll listen "That don't look that hard. I could do that."

> >

> > Most of us, certainly myself, tell the beginners/high handicappers to GO GET LESSONS and then figure out what clubs to get - falls on deaf ears. If you've never taken lessons, unless you've gotten really good on your own (and even then sometimes) you really have no idea how to swing the club. It's is extremely difficult to train yourself (properly). It's like that old saying, "A lawyer who defends himself has a fool for a client"

> >

> > The CB supporters, like myself, believe it or not, are trying to HELP the higher handicappers shoot better scores and (presumably) enjoy the game more. I daresay MOST golfers enjoy their day more when they shoot lower scores; not all maybe, but certainly most.

> >

> > And almost without exception we tell the blade guys to "play whatever you want for whatever reasons you want - we don't care".

> >

> > But enough with the snow jobs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the ridiculous "reasons". Play 'em because you WANT to. 'nuff said.

> >

> >

>

> Laughable? Nearly every point in your rambling response is flawed, and in nearly every case you misinterpreted the person you're quoting. Including myself.

>

> I wont bother dissecting the OP's original intentions or the fact that you certainly CAN be a great ball striker and have a high handicap (I know a few). My point was merely to propose a theory - that it may theoretically be possible for blades to speed the learning curve, if you're a very good learner. This is concordant with other sports science. With or without lessons. This is basically unrelated to the OP's point, although I feel that he was also misunderstood.

>

> I really feel that using more demanding clubs has improved my game and will continue to. Several other people have stated the same thing. Some are low handicappers. We're talking only about the training process and not scoring itself.

>

> Yet instead of actually LISTENING to these interesting cases/theories you fall back on all the same, repetitive, nonsensical non-arguments to our point. In fact I'm not even sure what your actual point is, except for that blades seem to **** you off, when in the wrong hands. Hence my strong suspicion for what can only be described as "jealousy."

>

> But hey man, play what you want ;)

 

I can only assume that “great ball striker” is extremely relative in your terms. I don’t know of or ever heard of any great ball strikers being bad golfers. Not sure how blades speed up any learning curve either. The only thing that speeds up the learning curve is practice, knowing basic ball striking principles, and natural ability.

[wmblake2000]

At this point in my golfing life I have passed thru my zealotry for blades, players cb and gi irons. I’ve loved and hated them all. And I am STILL not sure which I prefer or why.

[bodhi555]

Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

[BiggErn]

> @bodhi555 said:

> Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

 

Nobody has suggested anyone play anything just called them out on bs. Talk about giggling, nothing I love more than to see a poser on the course that can’t hit a solid shot to save his life. I rarely ever even see a guy using blades but when I do it’s usually one of these types.

[braincramp52]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> > Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

>

> Nobody has suggested anyone play anything just called them out on bs. Talk about giggling, nothing I love more than to see a poser on the course that can’t hit a solid shot to save his life. I rarely ever even see a guy using blades but when I do it’s usually one of these types.

 

But that same guy you scoff at probably can't hit a solid shot with anything. He might just be bad and is out on the course enjoying himself.

[MelloYello]

> @lawsonman said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @bodhi555 said:

> > > Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

> >

> > Nobody has suggested anyone play anything just called them out on bs. Talk about giggling, nothing I love more than to see a poser on the course that can’t hit a solid shot to save his life. I rarely ever even see a guy using blades but when I do it’s usually one of these types.

>

> But that same guy you scoff at probably can't hit a solid shot with anything.

 

That's why in the blade threads I try to advocate CBs...

 

...and in the CB threads I advocate GI irons...

 

...and in the GI threads I advocate SGI irons...

 

...and in the SGI threads I advocate quitting!

 

;)

 

Slowly but surely we'll find them something better to do, lol.

[MelloYello]

> @bodhi555 said:

> Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

 

It's just being politically correct.

 

The reason you have to say _"play what you want"_ is that if you don't preface your statements with that BS people come in and say stupid stuff like _"why do you even care!?"_

 

And then you have to remind them that _THEY_ were the ones who posted in the _EQUIPMENT_ forum on a _GOLF_ website!

[LaymanM]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> Andus wrote:

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> agolf1 wrote:

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> Andus wrote:

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> mantan wrote:

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> dpb5031 wrote:

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> Interesting to me is what is considered the definition of a "good ball striker"?

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> I think a lot of recreational players simply define it as someone who hits a decent amount of solidly struck shots.

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> That may not be entirely inaccurate, but I think most Tour pros would define a good ball striker as a player who hits >65% of GIRs and has control of his golf ball...trajectory, shot shape, and precise distances.

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> That's my thought as well. It's funny how the definition changes the better you get. I've seen SO many posts over the years by mid-handicappers who claim they are 'good ballstrikers' and by single digit guys who say they 'aren't great ballstrikers.'

>

>

>

> As a midcapper usually defines a good ballstriker is someone who hits solid shots on a consistent basis. To a single digit and below, that's usually a given. It's more question of how you can consistently hit precise distances, be able to take a little off or give a little extra on a shot. It's being able to control trajectory high and low whenever you want and the ability to work the ball. Not calling pulling a shot and calling it a draw or reverting back to a slice and calling it a fade, but truly work the ball a set amount in every direction and doing it on the course....not 1 out of 4 tries at the range.

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> When I say I consider myself a good ball striker, I'm saying that comparatively to another mid handicap player. I think my mid and long game is better than average for my cap, but my short game is worse than average... If that makes sense. My mishit is generally thin, and sometimes fat, but not very often toe and very rarely if ever a heel shot. Thin or fat shots are going to suck regardless of iron/club choice... Again, just my opinion.

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> You definitely have more speed than a typical 15 handicap (not disputing what you are saying). But how many greens do you usually hit per round?

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> Pretty tall, and younger so speed isn't the issue. And eventually, I hit all of the greens... lol but honestly, probably 6-7GIR. If I hit the GIR I can usually make par, but if it includes a chip on to the green, I usually will chip and 2 putt. That's what I hope to do, sadly.

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> 95-GIRX2. No offense, but if you hit 6-7 GIR the problem is not your short game. For a 15, on those numbers, your short game is adding about 5 shots per round off a perfect short game (rough, depends on course and slope ratings, but its still the same point). A tour pro (who hits just below 12 on average and gets up and down around 67% of the time) the short game is adding around 2-4 per round off a perfect short game.

>

>

>

> Here's how the cycle goes: Driver somewhere decent or bad. Iron shot to somewhere screwed. Short game shot duffed, because it was a super-hard short game shot, because you didn't miss in the right spot to make the short game shot easy. Blame short game shot because it happened last. Tell WRX you are a 15 because of your short game.

>

>

>

> Short game is incredibly dependent on your long-game ability to leave easy short game shots. If there is a horrible, deep, thin-sand bunker short-sided on the right and it never enters my head to aim left and release hard to make sure there isn't a block (long game skill) and you end up in it, you'll blow the incredibly hard sand shot and then b*tch that you "can't hit out of bunkers" when any OK long game player never would have sniffed that bunker on the approach. Normally a 15 cap who says its due to their short game really means "i hit the ball hard, but I can't think or control it very well".

>

>

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> Good short game players are great course managers, they're not just pulling off seven circus shots a round. This whole conversation is nonsensical. You can be a five or a six because of short game but there is zero chance you are a 15 because of it.

 

And this is why G410 irons are no in the bag. Ive played blades and player cavity backs. Just got rid of Srixon Z785. They were awesome but I need more GIR and more consistency from 180-205. I think my short game is pretty solid. I shoot around 78-84 most rounds. But not enough GIR. Way too much pressure on short game = high scores.

[tsecor]

you can be a good ball striker and shoot 90.....bad short game, wrong club selection, bad course management.....hitting is squarely doesn't equate to great scoring....its like the forgiveness debate......its great to have "help" but it doesn't mean you score well

[MelloYello]

The thing that blows my mind about a mid-handicap playing blades is that I was that guy and by no means did I feel inspired on my bad days. It was awful. I felt like a complete fool.

 

When I lost my swing and felt like I was a hack out there with blades I beat the crud out of myself for it. That was not fun. Some of what I'd say to myself was seriously unhealthy. I would tell myself I should just quit and give up.

 

When I think of someone else getting to that point, I cringe. That's going to be horrible for them. Maybe these 20+ handicaps are just delusional and haven't reached that dark point yet, but they will if they ever get good enough to have some actual expectations out there.

 

If these guys manage to get down to 10- or 12-handicaps and go through that mental self-flagellation of demanding they play the hardest equipment possible, they're going to regret it. That's where golf can lead to real honest-to-God depression and stuff. You don't want that.

 

My case was probably worse than most and it had little to do with equipment but s*** flows downhill. Being delusional about equipment can be an indicator that one is the same way with bigger things, like golf in general.

 

When I gave up on blades, I gave up on how I viewed the game. I believe a more balanced approach is better. I recognized that my approach was way out-of-whack.

 

You ever notice that these blade guys all say the same thing?

 

- _"I am a good ball-striker for my handicap."_

 

- _"I'd be better if I could just putt."_

 

- _"I love working the ball and shaping my shots."_

 

- _"I just love going to the range."_

 

I'm not saying that practicing your 7-iron on the range is bad, but it's such a waste to see guys who say they're golfers fall back into that pattern of neglecting more important stuff.

 

If you like hitting balls at the range with a blade, then maybe that's your thing. But it seems to me that actually being good at golf is kind of altogether different. A lot of people prefer the easier more stress-free path where they can show up, beat balls and leave feeling like they have all the potential in the world.

 

But when you show up, play an actual round and essentially fail the exam, is that not soul-crushing? Is that not frustrating? Is that not a bit humiliating?

 

I know that for me it wasn't something I could ignore. Eventually I had to get serious.

 

So for anyone who asks, about why we care, I kind of think, _'how can someone not care?'_ We're talking about peoples' fundamental approach to golf here. This is at the core of how people approach the game. Believe it or not, your equipment isn't peripheral. It says a great deal about who you are and how approach things.

[cliffhanger]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> > Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

>

> Nobody has suggested anyone play anything just called them out on bs. Talk about giggling, nothing I love more than to see a poser on the course that can’t hit a solid shot to save his life. I rarely ever even see a guy using blades but when I do it’s usually one of these types.

 

A little dramatic don't you think? Everyone who plays blades is a poser who can't hit a solid shot to save his life... They are trying to re-write physics... rationalize what is irrational.

How many tens of millions of people play golf and yet you absolutely know based on your experience that when you see a guy playing blades he is usually one of those types? Thats what you are judging your whole argument on? You are obviously passionate about golf... but so is the guy who wants to play blades over CB's. You need to realize this.

The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

My stance is purely in the middle. Being a guy who for the first time played a full set of blades last year i see both sides of the argument. With that said some of the arguments are weak on both sides. I think the weakest argument is comparing regular golfers to tour pros and what they choose to play... If i played under the same stress that they do the biggest SGI iron wouldn't save my a**. I would definitely rethink the entire bag based on what every shot will cost you out there... however i will never see that kind of pressure so that argument to me seems ridiculous to discuss. As crazy as it sounds if playing a blades makes someone happy then go for it... if it makes you happy to play GI's or SGI's than thats cool too. Part of this journey is being able to accept the journeys of others even if it doesn't make sense or doesn't align with what you believe in.

Then there are those who say that they would rather fail trying than to never have tried at all. i can't argue with that.

[bladehunter]

> @tsecor said:

> you can be a good ball striker and shoot 90.....bad short game, wrong club selection, bad course management.....hitting is squarely doesn't equate to great scoring....its like the forgiveness debate......its great to have "help" but it doesn't mean you score well

 

 

truth^^^...... hitting the middle of the face is maybe 20% of it...maybe..

[drugazi]

> @texcrom said:

> > @drugazi said:

> > > @bub72ck said:

> > > We get this topic frequently and I have to say I disagree. "Good" ball striking is a very relative term depending on what you are looking to get out of your game. If you find enjoyment out of that perfectly struck shot from a blade that's awesome, but to sluff off forgiveness between MBs and CBs is really painting with a broad brush. I don't know what your handicap is (you only said mid-high), but I am not sure you know what consistently finding the center of the club is. I don't think I do either. A round of golf for most anyone, save the top players in the world, is about consistency and quality of mis-hits. Losing 5 yards on a mis-hit shot is the difference between being on the green and off, or in a bunker, or in a water hazard. You said that your short game was weak. That weakness is going to be magnified by missed greens and further distance from the hole.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The bottom line is you can do whatever you wish with your game, but more than likely playing blades is costing you strokes.

> >

> > The problem is that it's such a crapshoot. Let's use your example, where a mishit is magnified five yards by a blade iron, as opposed to a cavity. Let's say that the pin is front and it's tucked behind a bunker. If I have a five yard mishit with a cavity-back, I'm definitely in the bunker, maybe even plugged in the face. On the other hand, let's say that five-yard mishit turns into a ten yard mishit with a blade iron. Instead of being in the bunker, I'm sitting in the fairway, with a better shot of making par. It's not always better to miss LONGER. In fact, I'd say it's a total crapshoot. It completely depends on the individual hole, as well as other factors such as wind, club selection, etc. I'm not sure there's hard evidence that shows always missing LONGER is better than missing shorter. There are WAY too many variables in golf for that conclusion. But, if you listen to equipment manufacturers, they'll keep taking your money!

>

> This reasoning is flawed so badly! LOL!

>

> The positive aspect is that some of the responses on this topic have made it easier for me to understand why it now takes four to five hours to play a weekend round of golf!

 

You're telling this to a 2 handicap that walks 18 holes in two hours, but thanks anyway!

[bladehunter]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> > Is anyone else giggling at people suggesting that people play what they want, then spending 19 pages telling people what they should be playing?

>

> Nobody has suggested anyone play anything just called them out on bs. Talk about giggling, nothing I love more than to see a poser on the course that can’t hit a solid shot to save his life. I rarely ever even see a guy using blades but when I do it’s usually one of these types.

 

careful there.... using the word Poseur while flying Tenn colors is dangerous.... ( i kid i kid) lol

[MelloYello]

> @cliffhanger said:

> The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

 

That isn't fair. Breaking the 4th wall to claim people posting on the internet _'care too much'_ is such a cop-out.

 

If you resort to insulting people because they visit WRX and post in the threads then you are, by your own logic, just as foolish for _"caring."_

 

Folks could turn around and admonish you for being a loser in the same way. So whether we're all losers for caring or we're the bravest people around for tackling the issue, it's better to not do what you're doing.

[deadsolid...shank]

I’m trying to remeber if I’ve ever actually seen someone who hits it really well (my terminology for good ball striking), but isn’t also a good all around player.

I realize hitting it well is a very subjective term, and also very relative to the person making the judgment, but I just can’t seem to recall seeing that person in real life.

[MelloYello]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> I’m trying to remeber if I’ve ever actually seen someone who hits it really well (my terminology for good ball striking), but isn’t also a good all around player.

> I realize hitting it well is a very subjective term, and also very relative to the person making the judgment, but I just can’t seem to recall seeing that person in real life.

 

Well, IDK...maybe these people exist but they shouldn't wear it like a badge of honor. I think it takes a pretty immature golfer to brag that they have a massively lop-sided skill-set.

 

If someone has 5 hours per week to practice and wants to use all of that hitting irons on the range while completely neglecting driving, short game, putting and strategy then to me, that's kind of embarrassing from the standpoint of being a golfer.

 

Seems to be a lot of these blade guys are maybe range rats.

 

If these guys want to abandon traditional notions of golf and stop looking at score then that's fine but it would seem that their approach is unique to them. I don't think I'd give much weight to an opinion of a guy who didn't think score was the most important factor.

 

Maybe we need an instruction sub-forum for the dozen people who want to play without keeping score, haha.

 

[drugazi]

> @drugazi said:

> > @texcrom said:

> > > @drugazi said:

> > > > @bub72ck said:

> > > > We get this topic frequently and I have to say I disagree. "Good" ball striking is a very relative term depending on what you are looking to get out of your game. If you find enjoyment out of that perfectly struck shot from a blade that's awesome, but to sluff off forgiveness between MBs and CBs is really painting with a broad brush. I don't know what your handicap is (you only said mid-high), but I am not sure you know what consistently finding the center of the club is. I don't think I do either. A round of golf for most anyone, save the top players in the world, is about consistency and quality of mis-hits. Losing 5 yards on a mis-hit shot is the difference between being on the green and off, or in a bunker, or in a water hazard. You said that your short game was weak. That weakness is going to be magnified by missed greens and further distance from the hole.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The bottom line is you can do whatever you wish with your game, but more than likely playing blades is costing you strokes.

> > >

> > > The problem is that it's such a crapshoot. Let's use your example, where a mishit is magnified five yards by a blade iron, as opposed to a cavity. Let's say that the pin is front and it's tucked behind a bunker. If I have a five yard mishit with a cavity-back, I'm definitely in the bunker, maybe even plugged in the face. On the other hand, let's say that five-yard mishit turns into a ten yard mishit with a blade iron. Instead of being in the bunker, I'm sitting in the fairway, with a better shot of making par. It's not always better to miss LONGER. In fact, I'd say it's a total crapshoot. It completely depends on the individual hole, as well as other factors such as wind, club selection, etc. I'm not sure there's hard evidence that shows always missing LONGER is better than missing shorter. There are WAY too many variables in golf for that conclusion. But, if you listen to equipment manufacturers, they'll keep taking your money!

> >

> > This reasoning is flawed so badly! LOL!

> >

> > The positive aspect is that some of the responses on this topic have made it easier for me to understand why it now takes four to five hours to play a weekend round of golf!

>

> You're telling this to a 2 handicap that walks 18 holes in two hours, but thanks anyway!

 

If you are able, please provide counterarguments for my examples.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > I’m trying to remeber if I’ve ever actually seen someone who hits it really well (my terminology for good ball striking), but isn’t also a good all around player.

> > I realize hitting it well is a very subjective term, and also very relative to the person making the judgment, but I just can’t seem to recall seeing that person in real life.

>

> Well, IDK...maybe these people exist but they shouldn't wear it like a badge of honor.

>

> If someone has 5 hours per week to practice and wants to use all of that hitting 6-irons on the range while completely neglecting driving, short game and putting then to me, that's kind of embarrassing from the standpoint of being a golfer.

>

> Seems to be a lot of these blade guys are maybe range rats.

>

>

 

That’s very possible. Someone who hits it really well on the range. I guess I was thinking as to what I’ve seen on the course since I try not to watch too much of others on the range.

 

And I’m by no means saying the person were talking about doesn’t exist on the course, I’m just trying to recall if I’ve played with anyone like that.

 

I do believe a big aspect of this part of the discussion however is based on whose making the judgement call on whether someone is hitting it well or not. To a 25 cap, a 5 might look great, but to a tour pro that same 5 looks like a chop!?

 

[cliffhanger]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @cliffhanger said:

> > The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

>

> That isn't fair. Breaking the 4th wall to claim people posting on the internet _'care too much'_ is such a cop-out.

>

> If you resort to insulting people because they visit WRX and post in the threads then you are, by your own logic, just as foolish for _"caring."_

>

> Folks could turn around and admonish you for being a loser in the same way. So whether we're all losers for caring or we're the bravest people around for tackling the issue, it's better to not do what you're doing.

i didn't say anyone was foolish for caring... i am simply asking why they care so much? i didn't judge his stance. I also don't believe i resorted to insulting anyone, if thats what you get from that post then ok. I think the big takeaway from my post is that both sides care and for their own reasons. I see that and i accept it. My issue is with those who can't see the other side for whatever reason that is.

And yes i have been accused of being foolish by those who know me best... and i can't argue with their opinion because they own it, not me.

[pinestreetgolf]

> @tsecor said:

> you can be a good ball striker and shoot 90.....bad short game, wrong club selection, bad course management.....hitting is squarely doesn't equate to great scoring....its like the forgiveness debate......its great to have "help" but it doesn't mean you score well

 

Yes, it does. 95-GIRx2. Good ballstrikers can have bad rounds due to short game and putting, so they can shoot 90 once. But they can't do it over and over by four putting greens and blading chips after towering drives up the middle. Its just silly and the guy who can hit it great BHSGHHB (but his short game holds him back) only exists in the imaginations of WRX forum members. The OP even admitted he had no idea what his numbers actually are after so confidently stating them in the initial post.

 

1. Your long game determines the range, your short game determines your score in that range (i.e. long game might give me 67-79, short game and putting that day determine if its a 70 or a 75 - but 67 isn't available to a guy driving it 230 no matter how good his short game is).

2. Most people have no idea why they score how they score.

3. If blades make you happy, play blades. If something else does, play that. If you're playing for tons of cash on some sort of tour, hire someone and play what he tells you.

[MelloYello]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > I’m trying to remeber if I’ve ever actually seen someone who hits it really well (my terminology for good ball striking), but isn’t also a good all around player.

> > > I realize hitting it well is a very subjective term, and also very relative to the person making the judgment, but I just can’t seem to recall seeing that person in real life.

> >

> > Well, IDK...maybe these people exist but they shouldn't wear it like a badge of honor.

> >

> > If someone has 5 hours per week to practice and wants to use all of that hitting 6-irons on the range while completely neglecting driving, short game and putting then to me, that's kind of embarrassing from the standpoint of being a golfer.

> >

> > Seems to be a lot of these blade guys are maybe range rats.

> >

> >

>

> That’s very possible. Someone who hits it really well on the range. I guess I was thinking as to what I’ve seen on the course since I try not to watch too much of others on the range.

>

> And I’m by no means saying the person were talking about doesn’t exist on the course, I’m just trying to recall if I’ve played with anyone like that.

>

> I do believe a big aspect of this part of the discussion however is based on whose making the judgement call on whether someone is hitting it well or not. To a 25 cap, a 5 might look great, but to a tour pro that same 5 looks like a chop!?

>

 

I think they exist and I think a lot of them are actually the WRX'er type.

 

I'll give you an example of myself last year. I moved to the city and was playing a new course all year which was extraordinarily hilly. This new course was tough -- very penalizing off the tee and easy to start missing GIR. So all I year I'm focusing on my long game. Add to that I wasn't really practicing putting anyhow and I was eventually capable of going back to my old home course (which is somewhat easier, mind you) and hitting some 12 GIR while putting 40+ times.

 

I took what should have been an easy 75 and turned it into an 82 with God-awful putting.

 

But, here's the thing. That's embarrassing AF and I realize it. I don't like talking about that. It's soul-crushing. Nobody who's good enough to take a set of Titleist MB's out there (which I had in the bag) and hit 12 GIR should be shooting above 80 on what should have been their best day.

 

On WRX, we promote blades and forgive people for stuff like that. We shouldn't. We should promote good putting and smart strategy that lowers scoring.

 

Here's the thing though, as soon as I go to the practice green to improve on those 40 putts, I'm not going to be the same ball-striker I was and that's why I went to CBs this year. I know I won't be putting in the hours on the range beating mid-irons. I need the club to meet me half-way so I can dedicate some practice time to other stuff.

[Golf4lifer]

Being a great ballstriker also doesn't guarantee you a good score. If you have a lousy short game, you're in trouble no matter how good a ballstriker you are.

 

Likewise, you can be a mediocre ballstriker, or have a poor ballstriking round, and still score great if your short game and putting are fantastic.

[MelloYello]

> @cliffhanger said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @cliffhanger said:

> > > The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

> >

> > That isn't fair. Breaking the 4th wall to claim people posting on the internet _'care too much'_ is such a cop-out.

> >

> > If you resort to insulting people because they visit WRX and post in the threads then you are, by your own logic, just as foolish for _"caring."_

> >

> > Folks could turn around and admonish you for being a loser in the same way. So whether we're all losers for caring or we're the bravest people around for tackling the issue, it's better to not do what you're doing.

> i didn't say anyone was foolish for caring... i am simply asking why they care so much? i didn't judge his stance. I also don't believe i resorted to insulting anyone, if thats what you get from that post then ok. I think the big takeaway from my post is that both sides care and for their own reasons. I see that and i accept it. My issue is with those who can't see the other side for whatever reason that is.

> And yes i have been accused of being foolish by those who know me best... and i can't argue with their opinion because they own it, not me.

 

We care insofar as we're trying to share our experiences. That's called being an _empathetic human_.

 

No one's saying Tiger Woods shouldn't use blades.

 

Stop saying one side cares more than the other. From above, no one gives a s***. We're just debating stuff. Caring doesn't come into it, at last not how you're implying which is making out that some people can't stand seeing blades in others bags.

[cliffhanger]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> > @tsecor said:

> > you can be a good ball striker and shoot 90.....bad short game, wrong club selection, bad course management.....hitting is squarely doesn't equate to great scoring....its like the forgiveness debate......its great to have "help" but it doesn't mean you score well

>

> Yes, it does. 95-GIRx2. Good ballstrikers can have bad rounds due to short game and putting, so they can shoot 90 once. But they can't do it over and over by four putting greens and blading chips after towering drives up the middle. Its just silly and the guy who can hit it great BHSGHHB (but his short game holds him back) only exists in the imaginations of WRX forum members. The OP even admitted he had no idea what his numbers actually are after so confidently stating them in the initial post.

>

> 1. Your long game determines the range, your short game determines your score in that range (i.e. long game might give me 67-79, short game and putting that day determine if its a 70 or a 75 - but 67 isn't available to a guy driving it 230 no matter how good his short game is).

> 2. Most people have no idea why they score how they score.

> 3. If blades make you happy, play blades. If something else does, play that. If you're playing for tons of cash on some sort of tour, hire someone and play what he tells you.

 

i think your point number 2 is in fact one of the biggest factors in this entire debate. Understanding the root cause of why something happens. There is a sense that there is a lack of that going on.

[drugazi]

> @texcrom said:

> > @drugazi said:

> > > @bub72ck said:

> > > We get this topic frequently and I have to say I disagree. "Good" ball striking is a very relative term depending on what you are looking to get out of your game. If you find enjoyment out of that perfectly struck shot from a blade that's awesome, but to sluff off forgiveness between MBs and CBs is really painting with a broad brush. I don't know what your handicap is (you only said mid-high), but I am not sure you know what consistently finding the center of the club is. I don't think I do either. A round of golf for most anyone, save the top players in the world, is about consistency and quality of mis-hits. Losing 5 yards on a mis-hit shot is the difference between being on the green and off, or in a bunker, or in a water hazard. You said that your short game was weak. That weakness is going to be magnified by missed greens and further distance from the hole.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The bottom line is you can do whatever you wish with your game, but more than likely playing blades is costing you strokes.

> >

> > The problem is that it's such a crapshoot. Let's use your example, where a mishit is magnified five yards by a blade iron, as opposed to a cavity. Let's say that the pin is front and it's tucked behind a bunker. If I have a five yard mishit with a cavity-back, I'm definitely in the bunker, maybe even plugged in the face. On the other hand, let's say that five-yard mishit turns into a ten yard mishit with a blade iron. Instead of being in the bunker, I'm sitting in the fairway, with a better shot of making par. It's not always better to miss LONGER. In fact, I'd say it's a total crapshoot. It completely depends on the individual hole, as well as other factors such as wind, club selection, etc. I'm not sure there's hard evidence that shows always missing LONGER is better than missing shorter. There are WAY too many variables in golf for that conclusion. But, if you listen to equipment manufacturers, they'll keep taking your money!

>

> This reasoning is flawed so badly! LOL!

>

> The positive aspect is that some of the responses on this topic have made it easier for me to understand why it now takes four to five hours to play a weekend round of golf!

 

If you are able, please provide counterarguments for my examples.

 

 

[cliffhanger]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @cliffhanger said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @cliffhanger said:

> > > > The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

> > >

> > > That isn't fair. Breaking the 4th wall to claim people posting on the internet _'care too much'_ is such a cop-out.

> > >

> > > If you resort to insulting people because they visit WRX and post in the threads then you are, by your own logic, just as foolish for _"caring."_

> > >

> > > Folks could turn around and admonish you for being a loser in the same way. So whether we're all losers for caring or we're the bravest people around for tackling the issue, it's better to not do what you're doing.

> > i didn't say anyone was foolish for caring... i am simply asking why they care so much? i didn't judge his stance. I also don't believe i resorted to insulting anyone, if thats what you get from that post then ok. I think the big takeaway from my post is that both sides care and for their own reasons. I see that and i accept it. My issue is with those who can't see the other side for whatever reason that is.

> > And yes i have been accused of being foolish by those who know me best... and i can't argue with their opinion because they own it, not me.

>

> We care insofar as we're trying to share our experiences. That's called being an _empathetic human_.

>

> No one's saying Tiger Woods shouldn't use blades.

>

> Stop saying one side cares more than the other. From above, no one gives a ****. We're just debating stuff. Caring doesn't come into it, at last not how you're implying which is making out that some people can't stand seeing blades in others bags.

 

i didn't say that one side cares more than the other. i said that both sides care and for their own reasons. I like debates and i love seeing posts like yours above that is based around your own personal experience. I know by reading it that you understand why you score the way you do which is something that has been discussed on here as being a flaw of some. The problem is from both sides that many posts have been very far from personal experience sharing.

[MelloYello]

> @drugazi said:

> The problem is that it's such a crapshoot. Let's use your example, where a mishit is magnified five yards by a blade iron, as opposed to a cavity. Let's say that the pin is front and it's tucked behind a bunker. If I have a five yard mishit with a cavity-back, I'm definitely in the bunker, maybe even plugged in the face. On the other hand, let's say that five-yard mishit turns into a ten yard mishit with a blade iron. Instead of being in the bunker, I'm sitting in the fairway, with a better shot of making par. It's not always better to miss LONGER. In fact, I'd say it's a total crapshoot. It completely depends on the individual hole, as well as other factors such as wind, club selection, etc. I'm not sure there's hard evidence that shows always missing LONGER is better than missing shorter. There are WAY too many variables in golf for that conclusion. But, if you listen to equipment manufacturers, they'll keep taking your money!

 

I think it's worth discussing at what level equipment even begins to influence scoring. It's probably at a lower handicap than people think.

 

If someone is chunking irons and missing 10-15 yards short I doubt equipment matters much. And to be fair, I still see those kinds of misses from my 10-handicap playing partner.

 

So maybe we have to get down into the single figures for equipment to even matter?

 

Would that change the tone of these debates? I bet it would if we all agreed that one has to have a low-handicap iron game for it to even matter.

 

At the same time, it's also fair to point out someone who's chunking shots doesn't have the skill or knowledge to offer much through their anecdotal experience with blades.

 

For instance, I would assume the actual results seen amongst MB, CB and AP2 irons would be a few yards at most. If we're talking about slight misses (what a good player will experience) we'll see a clear separation.

 

If we're talking about chunking a shot, it won't matter.

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @cliffhanger said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @cliffhanger said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @cliffhanger said:

> > > > > The real question here is why does it bother you that much what their decision to play is? Apparently it bothers you that much you have reposted how many times on this thread?

> > > >

> > > > That isn't fair. Breaking the 4th wall to claim people posting on the internet _'care too much'_ is such a cop-out.

> > > >

> > > > If you resort to insulting people because they visit WRX and post in the threads then you are, by your own logic, just as foolish for _"caring."_

> > > >

> > > > Folks could turn around and admonish you for being a loser in the same way. So whether we're all losers for caring or we're the bravest people around for tackling the issue, it's better to not do what you're doing.

> > > i didn't say anyone was foolish for caring... i am simply asking why they care so much? i didn't judge his stance. I also don't believe i resorted to insulting anyone, if thats what you get from that post then ok. I think the big takeaway from my post is that both sides care and for their own reasons. I see that and i accept it. My issue is with those who can't see the other side for whatever reason that is.

> > > And yes i have been accused of being foolish by those who know me best... and i can't argue with their opinion because they own it, not me.

> >

> > We care insofar as we're trying to share our experiences. That's called being an _empathetic human_.

> >

> > No one's saying Tiger Woods shouldn't use blades.

> >

> > Stop saying one side cares more than the other. From above, no one gives a ****. We're just debating stuff. Caring doesn't come into it, at last not how you're implying which is making out that some people can't stand seeing blades in others bags.

>

> i didn't say that one side cares more than the other. i said that both sides care and for their own reasons. I like debates and i love seeing posts like yours above that is based around your own personal experience. I know by reading it that you understand why you score the way you do which is something that has been discussed on here as being a flaw of some. The problem is from both sides that many posts have been very far from personal experience sharing.

 

Fair enough, and yes, I'd prefer people just share more openly without insult.

 

That said, I prefer not get into a discussion wherein we're using phrases like "you care" or "he cares." It's implied by our presence here that we care. Whether that's good or bad is irrelevant to the debate. I understand your reaction though if it's simply to dissuade people from being so cynical. I do agree, cynicism doesn't help.

 

I try to remember that I was once a beginner with blades. I think it's interesting that I tried blades and got addicted to golf. Maybe there was a connection? Maybe not.

[Golf4lifer]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @drugazi said:

> > The problem is that it's such a crapshoot. Let's use your example, where a mishit is magnified five yards by a blade iron, as opposed to a cavity. Let's say that the pin is front and it's tucked behind a bunker. If I have a five yard mishit with a cavity-back, I'm definitely in the bunker, maybe even plugged in the face. On the other hand, let's say that five-yard mishit turns into a ten yard mishit with a blade iron. Instead of being in the bunker, I'm sitting in the fairway, with a better shot of making par. It's not always better to miss LONGER. In fact, I'd say it's a total crapshoot. It completely depends on the individual hole, as well as other factors such as wind, club selection, etc. I'm not sure there's hard evidence that shows always missing LONGER is better than missing shorter. There are WAY too many variables in golf for that conclusion. But, if you listen to equipment manufacturers, they'll keep taking your money!

>

> I think it's worth discussing at what level equipment even begins to influence scoring. It's probably at a lower handicap than people think.

>

> If someone is chunking irons and missing 10-15 yards short I doubt equipment matters much.

>

> But at the same time, it's fair to point out that level of player doesn't have the skill or knowledge to offer much through their anecdotal experience with blades.

>

> For instance, I would assume the actual results seen amongst MB, CB and AP2 irons would be a few yards at most. If we're talking about slight misses (what a good player will experience) we'll see a clear separation.

>

> If we're talking about chunking a shot, it won't matter.

>

>

 

I think we put too much stock in the equipment used not enough stock on the player. How many of us truly hit the sweet spot all the time? Manage your misses.

 

As an example I shot an 81 and hit a grand total of 2 girs. The next round I shot an 81 and hit 8 girs. Which round did I use my blades and which did I use my cb’s? Does it really matter?