Country Club Questions

[byrne092]

Is it normal to ask for financials? I guess if it is an equity club it should be a fair question. The one club did disclose the current debt when I asked why the debt service fee had gone up.

 

Headshots :D

[golfortennis]

> @byrne092 said:

> Is it normal to ask for financials? I guess if it is an equity club it should be a fair question. The one club did disclose the current debt when I asked why the debt service fee had gone up.

>

> Headshots :D

 

IT is. After all, you're ostensibly making a long term commitment to the club. It's only fair you have full information before making such an investment. If someone doesn't want to tell you their situation, that could be seen as a red flag as well.

 

If the owner/whoever is going to look at things as business, and you are a transaction, you should be taking the same approach.

[Roadking2003]

Proximity is huge. The closer you are to the club the more often you will use it.

[david.c.w]

Do you know people at each club you are looking at joining? People are passionate about their clubs so you should be able to get a good idea of the highs and lows of each.

 

Make sure you join a country club for the right reasons. Do not join because it is a great deal or you are trying to save money. Join for the atmosphere, the camaraderie, the course, the conditions, the access, the mixed grill, the games and whatever else you are looking for. You may be joining a club for the next 40 years so make sure you are a fit with the membership. Do you want to play 5 man wolf with music or do you want more traditional matches? Some clubs are only one or the other, some are both.

 

Don't worry too much about debt as long as the debt goes to capital improvements and not just operations. Most courses probably have debt but it is to make the place better not just keep it running.

 

Overall the membership is what make a club what it is not the BOG or a single owner. Make sure there are at least a few groups of people you want to spend the rest of your life with, because when you are 70 you might be in the mens lounge playing cards and drinking free coffee.

[byrne092]

Thank you for the advice.

Members are going to be a big factor. One of the driving reasons of joining is that I want to play in events and find some regular groups/games. This is lacking for me because I only have 1-2 friends that golf, and have very limited schedules. I like to play as much as possible (3-6 days a week). It honestly is kind of a de-motivator currently. I love playing, but playing by myself and for no stakes has become quite a bore and killing that love for the game.

Trying to determine the makeup of the club is probably going to be the most important factor and the most difficult to asses at the same time.

[driveandputtmachine]

Proximity, proximity, proximity. This is first, second, and third. Fourth would be actual members (stuck up or snooty can make a great club bad) and fifth would be the course itself. My current club is a PITA to get to after work, and therefore I do not use it much during the week. The members are absolutely awesome and the golf course and conditions are second to none. The clubhouse isn't great, and not that I care but the tennis facilities are pretty damn good.

 

However the proximity is making me want to change. There is a club directly in between my office and my home, and still a bit closer to my house than my current club. New club has 27, but the course isn't as nice, clubhouse is better and tennis facilities are better. The one caveat.......lottery system for tee times. You never have trouble getting a time pretty damn near where you want one, but it makes it really difficult for big groups to play together. This stops a really big group from having a standard 8:00am tee time on the weekends and easier for newbies to play at times they want. So it is a take the good with the bad type of problem.

 

Factor all of this in with upcoming wrist surgery and I will take the whole winter off, it may be time for a change.

[Roody]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

> If you have a wife that golfs, check into how the women are treated. And don't ask the male members, ask the female members. Sexism is still rampant at private golf clubs. Sadly, I am speaking from experience.

 

This ^^

 

My wife and I joined our first private club last year. And one of the biggest surprises for me has been how much she's been using it. I rather figured I'd be the primary user, and she'd come over for the occasional round of golf or dinner. But to my pleasant surprise, she ended up playing about 45 rounds of golf this year, including joining the women's league on Tuesdays. She's made a ton of new friends, and attends a lot of the social events. So between her and I, we've logged nearly 140 rounds this season (in NY no less, where we maybe get 7 months to a season).

 

That said, I think our club is farther ahead than a lot of clubs in how they treat women members. But we're not perfect. Tuesdays are supposed to be women's day at the club. Yet some of the men continue to be let onto the course to play that day, even during restricted times. And you find them in the clubhouse at the bar, and that doesn't seem to get enforced well. They're supposed to be restricted from being at the main bar on Tuesdays.

 

Conversely, Wednesdays are men's day. And it seems like if a woman even sets foot near the course, they're on her like a hawk on a field mouse. I remember standing outside the pro shop one men's day, and a woman was walking towards me. When I first saw her, I thought she was someone I knew so I kinda stared at her as she approached. She looked at me and said "relax, I'm only here for a minute. I'm not gonna intrude on p3nis day". I said "I never thought for a second that you were intruding".

 

So, yeah we have a little bit of work to do to change mindsets and attitudes.

[golfortennis]

> @Roody said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > If you have a wife that golfs, check into how the women are treated. And don't ask the male members, ask the female members. Sexism is still rampant at private golf clubs. Sadly, I am speaking from experience.

>

> This ^^

>

> My wife and I joined our first private club last year. And one of the biggest surprises for me has been how much she's been using it. I rather figured I'd be the primary user, and she'd come over for the occasional round of golf or dinner. But to my pleasant surprise, she ended up playing about 45 rounds of golf this year, including joining the women's league on Tuesdays. She's made a ton of new friends, and attends a lot of the social events. So between her and I, we've logged nearly 140 rounds this season (in NY no less, where we maybe get 7 months to a season).

>

> That said, I think our club is farther ahead than a lot of clubs in how they treat women members. But we're not perfect. Tuesdays are supposed to be women's day at the club. Yet some of the men continue to be let onto the course to play that day, even during restricted times. And you find them in the clubhouse at the bar, and that doesn't seem to get enforced well. They're supposed to be restricted from being at the main bar on Tuesdays.

>

> Conversely, Wednesdays are men's day. And it seems like if a woman even sets foot near the course, they're on her like a hawk on a field mouse. I remember standing outside the pro shop one men's day, and a woman was walking towards me. When I first saw her, I thought she was someone I knew so I kinda stared at her as she approached. She looked at me and said "relax, I'm only here for a minute. I'm not gonna intrude on p3nis day". I said "I never thought for a second that you were intruding".

>

> So, yeah we have a little bit of work to do to change mindsets and attitudes.

 

The only thing you need to be careful about on that last part is that the restricted time is being used. We had a situation where Tuesday morning had time blocked for senior men's, a couple hours for women's league in the morning, and then again from 4-6. But what was happening was women were booking tee times before 4, to get 18 holes in, and then the 4-6 time would be a ghost town. Whereas the 1-6 men's league time on Thursday is pretty much always packed. So we finally worked out where guys could tee off during the 4-6 time if no women were around to tee off. But with a couple of exceptions, we don't really have much of an issue on that front.

[Miss_Tee]

> @Roody said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > If you have a wife that golfs, check into how the women are treated. And don't ask the male members, ask the female members. Sexism is still rampant at private golf clubs. Sadly, I am speaking from experience.

>

> This ^^

>

> My wife and I joined our first private club last year. And one of the biggest surprises for me has been how much she's been using it. I rather figured I'd be the primary user, and she'd come over for the occasional round of golf or dinner. But to my pleasant surprise, she ended up playing about 45 rounds of golf this year, including joining the women's league on Tuesdays. She's made a ton of new friends, and attends a lot of the social events. So between her and I, we've logged nearly 140 rounds this season (in NY no less, where we maybe get 7 months to a season).

>

> That said, I think our club is farther ahead than a lot of clubs in how they treat women members. But we're not perfect. Tuesdays are supposed to be women's day at the club. Yet some of the men continue to be let onto the course to play that day, even during restricted times. And you find them in the clubhouse at the bar, and that doesn't seem to get enforced well. They're supposed to be restricted from being at the main bar on Tuesdays.

>

> Conversely, Wednesdays are men's day. And it seems like if a woman even sets foot near the course, they're on her like a hawk on a field mouse. I remember standing outside the pro shop one men's day, and a woman was walking towards me. When I first saw her, I thought she was someone I knew so I kinda stared at her as she approached. She looked at me and said "relax, I'm only here for a minute. I'm not gonna intrude on p3nis day". I said "I never thought for a second that you were intruding".

>

> So, yeah we have a little bit of work to do to change mindsets and attitudes.

 

I would think we belonged to the same club, but I'm not in NY. The same things happen at my club.

Some of the older guys still think it's the 1960s. Of course, their wives don't golf.

We also have Club Day Tournaments once a month, but they were for men only. How is that "Club Day?" The policy was changed this year and women can play in them now.

Thank you for being a supportive husband. We need more men willing to speak up about the inequalities.

[medicoreMAgolfer]

> @byrne092 said:

> Is it normal to ask for financials? I guess if it is an equity club it should be a fair question. The one club did disclose the current debt when I asked why the debt service fee had gone up.

>

> Headshots :D

 

There is a slight work-around on asking if it is an equity club. Any non-profit needs to file a form 990 with the IRS and those are public. It's sometimes hard to find them, but the best source I have found is propublica. They're certainly not perfect documents to untangle what is going on, but I would pay attention to two things A) Debt levels and B) revenue trends

[Schley]

> @medicoreMAgolfer said:

> > @byrne092 said:

> > Is it normal to ask for financials? I guess if it is an equity club it should be a fair question. The one club did disclose the current debt when I asked why the debt service fee had gone up.

> >

> > Headshots :D

>

> There is a slight work-around on asking if it is an equity club. Any non-profit needs to file a form 990 with the IRS and those are public. It's sometimes hard to find them, but the best source I have found is propublica. They're certainly not perfect documents to untangle what is going on, but I would pay attention to two things A) Debt levels and B) revenue trends

 

Actually they aren't hard to find at all, law requires them to be filed and publicly accessible. I use Guidestar.com and they go back up to 3 years, easily searchable database.

[byrne092]

That proved to be a nice resource.

[stlouismark]

> @byrne092 said:

> That proved to be a nice resource.

 

I’m in St Louis....what clubs are you looking into?

 

[Roody]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

> I would think we belonged to the same club, but I'm not in NY. The same things happen at my club.

> Some of the older guys still think it's the 1960s. Of course, their wives don't golf.

> We also have Club Day Tournaments once a month, but they were for men only. How is that "Club Day?" The policy was changed this year and women can play in them now.

> Thank you for being a supportive husband. We need more men willing to speak up about the inequalities.

 

The good thing is I don't have to speak up too much, as I think positive change is happening on its own. Which reminds me of another story:

 

My wife told me of a male co-worker who belongs to one of the other private clubs in the area. I guess a couple years ago he was in at the bar, hanging out with the boys. A bunch of them were making comments about how great it is that the women aren't allowed to do x or y at "their" club. Apparently he decided to speak up and said "I think it would be great if we let the women come hang out with us at x or y event". The room apparently went silent.

 

According to him, since that day he's been blackballed by the other men for that comment.

[Pepperturbo]

> @Bluefan75 said:

> > @byrne092 said:

> > Is it normal to ask for financials? I guess if it is an equity club it should be a fair question. The one club did disclose the current debt when I asked why the debt service fee had gone up.

> >

> > Headshots :D

>

> IT is. After all, you're ostensibly making a long term commitment to the club. It's only fair you have full information before making such an investment. If someone doesn't want to tell you their situation, that could be seen as a red flag as well.

>

> If the owner/whoever is going to look at things as business, and you are a transaction, you should be taking the same approach.

 

Though it seems reasonable to ask for financials, don't expect to see them if it's a **non-equity** club. However, if the club is owned by a larger corporation that's on the stock exchange you can see it's corporate financials. The problem with that is identifying club financials among all the holding of the corporation. If it's owned by a benevolent dictator seeing financials is not likely. Compare it to going to work at a company that's privately owned where the owner holds ALL the stock, nobody sees the financials, except financial personnel and they sign privacy contracts.

[Miss_Tee]

> @Roody said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > I would think we belonged to the same club, but I'm not in NY. The same things happen at my club.

> > Some of the older guys still think it's the 1960s. Of course, their wives don't golf.

> > We also have Club Day Tournaments once a month, but they were for men only. How is that "Club Day?" The policy was changed this year and women can play in them now.

> > Thank you for being a supportive husband. We need more men willing to speak up about the inequalities.

>

> The good thing is I don't have to speak up too much, as I think positive change is happening on its own. Which reminds me of another story:

>

> My wife told me of a male co-worker who belongs to one of the other private clubs in the area. I guess a couple years ago he was in at the bar, hanging out with the boys. A bunch of them were making comments about how great it is that the women aren't allowed to do x or y at "their" club. Apparently he decided to speak up and said "I think it would be great if we let the women come hang out with us at x or y event". The room apparently went silent.

>

> According to him, since that day he's been blackballed by the other men for that comment.

 

I believe it! That's why most men are afraid to speak up. I think it's a small, vocal minority who are the ones that keep the sexism alive and well at most clubs. Not much is going to change until more broad-minded men (no pun intended) are willing to voice their opinions.

[theredzone7]

Seriously considering joining a private club. Thanks for all the great advice. A lot of this was stuff I would have never considered.

[LexHair]

I'll throw this in there. Check for dress code, how rigidly it's enforced and who enforces it. I'm in the metro NYC area and finally got to the point where I could belong rather than work at a club. I wanted a traditional club experience which, for me, includes a bit of a formal approach to dress. Our club has a very relaxed dress code but it's not enforced by the members nor the management. Infuriating to me. I've got pre-teen children and I insist they conform to the dress code but we've got all ages showing up in the dining room in flip flops, beat up jeans, t-shirts, soccer practice uniforms, etc. Members and their families show up like it's their backyard BBQ for dinner. Maybe that's ok for most but why bother having a dress code at all if that's the case.

 

On the practice tee and the course, our pro and his staff are pretty diligent about enforcing dress code which is important.

[HackerDave]

The dress code issue is always thorny. People want a more relaxed code but it can go to far. The funniest thing is my kids were mortified when they decided to allow jeans in the clubhouse. They liked getting a bit dressed up. We used to allow no jeans on property, which was kind of a pain. It was much more convenient to show up in jeans and change in the locker room.

[BB28403]

Ask whether to extricate your gas upwind or down

[Warrior42111]

> @BB28403 said:

> Ask whether to extricate your gas upwind or down

 

I save that for a forced carry tee shot for my opponents

[LexHair]

> @HackerDave said:

> The dress code issue is always thorny. People want a more relaxed code but it can go to far. The funniest thing is my kids were mortified when they decided to allow jeans in the clubhouse. They liked getting a bit dressed up. We used to allow no jeans on property, which was kind of a pain. It was much more convenient to show up in jeans and change in the locker room.

 

We went with "neat jeans" whatever that means. Think it's fine to show up in jeans and change.

[SlyBrigade]

> @byrne092 said:

> Thank you for the advice.

> Members are going to be a big factor. One of the driving reasons of joining is that I want to play in events and find some regular groups/games. This is lacking for me because I only have 1-2 friends that golf, and have very limited schedules. I like to play as much as possible (3-6 days a week). It honestly is kind of a de-motivator currently. I love playing, but playing by myself and for no stakes has become quite a bore and killing that love for the game.

> Trying to determine the makeup of the club is probably going to be the most important factor and the most difficult to asses at the same time.

 

I can speak to this a bit, having just joined my club back in May. I'm one of the younger members (early 30s) and the average age kicking around is probably in the 50s. I was worried about it at first; not necessarily playing with the old guard, but that I'd be "accepted" or something to that effect. Has unequivocally been a non-issue. Took a couple months to get to know the guys that tend to play around the same times I do, and I've worked into the group. The network has kind of grown organically from there -- I got invited to come play in the weekend skins game, met those handful of guys, got hooked into the big group text that has people shooting the word out for games throughout the day, and it's all gravy, baby.

 

Just gotta be outgoing and not be a dick.

 

I still get out to play with my buddies here and there, or bring them out to the club...I've just added more people to play with.

[golfortennis]

> @SlyBrigade said:

> > @byrne092 said:

> > Thank you for the advice.

> > Members are going to be a big factor. One of the driving reasons of joining is that I want to play in events and find some regular groups/games. This is lacking for me because I only have 1-2 friends that golf, and have very limited schedules. I like to play as much as possible (3-6 days a week). It honestly is kind of a de-motivator currently. I love playing, but playing by myself and for no stakes has become quite a bore and killing that love for the game.

> > Trying to determine the makeup of the club is probably going to be the most important factor and the most difficult to asses at the same time.

>

> I can speak to this a bit, having just joined my club back in May. I'm one of the younger members (early 30s) and the average age kicking around is probably in the 50s. I was worried about it at first; not necessarily playing with the old guard, but that I'd be "accepted" or something to that effect. Has unequivocally been a non-issue. Took a couple months to get to know the guys that tend to play around the same times I do, and I've worked into the group. The network has kind of grown organically from there -- I got invited to come play in the weekend skins game, met those handful of guys, got hooked into the big group text that has people shooting the word out for games throughout the day, and it's all gravy, baby.

>

> Just gotta be outgoing and not be a dick.

>

> I still get out to play with my buddies here and there, or bring them out to the club...I've just added more people to play with.

 

This. 1000x this. I don't get where this "can only play with my buddies" mentality comes from. It's an individual sport. While I'm all for friends playing, I'm not letting them dictate whether I play or not.

 

[Roody]

> @SlyBrigade said:

> I can speak to this a bit, having just joined my club back in May. I'm one of the younger members (early 30s) and the average age kicking around is probably in the 50s. I was worried about it at first; not necessarily playing with the old guard, but that I'd be "accepted" or something to that effect. Has unequivocally been a non-issue. Took a couple months to get to know the guys that tend to play around the same times I do, and I've worked into the group. The network has kind of grown organically from there -- I got invited to come play in the weekend skins game, met those handful of guys, got hooked into the big group text that has people shooting the word out for games throughout the day, and it's all gravy, baby.

>

> Just gotta be outgoing and not be a dick.

>

> I still get out to play with my buddies here and there, or bring them out to the club...I've just added more people to play with.

 

Yes, I can also say this has been my experience. My wife and I joined our first fully private club a little over a year ago. If anything, I almost have too many people to play golf with now. It's a good problem to have.

 

The key is to sign up for events at the club. Some of the events they let you pick your own partner, but some they pair you up randomly. It's a great way to meet and play with people. I find once I play 18 with someone, it's a lot easier to ask them to play again the next time you run into them. Or a lot of the time we end up exchanging phone numbers after the round.

[Roadking2003]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

> I believe it! That's why most men are afraid to speak up. I think it's a small, vocal minority who are the ones that keep the sexism alive and well at most clubs. Not much is going to change until more broad-minded men (no pun intended) are willing to voice their opinions.

 

I don't think that preferring to be with men at a club is sexism at all. I joined a club to play golf with the guys. I don't care if there are women members or not.

[Bebsport678]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> Proximity is huge. The closer you are to the club the more often you will use it.

 

This 100%. I’ve had a few memberships over the years and when it’s convenient, you’ll use it a lot more often.

[cristphoto]

> @LexHair said:

> > @HackerDave said:

> > The dress code issue is always thorny. People want a more relaxed code but it can go to far. The funniest thing is my kids were mortified when they decided to allow jeans in the clubhouse. They liked getting a bit dressed up. We used to allow no jeans on property, which was kind of a pain. It was much more convenient to show up in jeans and change in the locker room.

>

> We went with "neat jeans" whatever that means. Think it's fine to show up in jeans and change.

 

This bugs me at my club too. On the course jeans are not allowed plus hats have to be on proper. But in the dining room jeans (not torn or extremely worn) are allowed. I've offered the compromise of no jeans at dinner time (but allowed at other times), but it goes nowhere. That's why we have lockers. I understand if someone that wears jeans to work comes directly to the club, but have proper clothes in your locker to change into.

[Warrior42111]

> @cristphoto said:

> > @LexHair said:

> > > @HackerDave said:

> > > The dress code issue is always thorny. People want a more relaxed code but it can go to far. The funniest thing is my kids were mortified when they decided to allow jeans in the clubhouse. They liked getting a bit dressed up. We used to allow no jeans on property, which was kind of a pain. It was much more convenient to show up in jeans and change in the locker room.

> >

> > We went with "neat jeans" whatever that means. Think it's fine to show up in jeans and change.

>

> This bugs me at my club too. On the course jeans are not allowed plus hats have to be on proper. But in the dining room jeans (not torn or extremely worn) are allowed. I've offered the compromise of no jeans at dinner time (but allowed at other times), but it goes nowhere. That's why we have lockers. I understand if someone that wears jeans to work comes directly to the club, but have proper clothes in your locker to change into.

 

Just curious, hats on proper, I assume that means facing forward?

[Miss_Tee]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > I believe it! That's why most men are afraid to speak up. I think it's a small, vocal minority who are the ones that keep the sexism alive and well at most clubs. Not much is going to change until more broad-minded men (no pun intended) are willing to voice their opinions.

 

 

>

> I don't think that preferring to be with men at a club is sexism at all. I joined a club to play golf with the guys. I don't care if there are women members or not.

 

 

 

I get that. That’s what men’s league is for.

At the club I belong to, we have two couples leagues on Tuesdays, two women’s leagues on Wednesdays and three men’s leagues on Thursdays.

There are also monthly scrambles for men and two scrambles for women - if we get enough to sign up - which didn’t happen this year (for the women's scrambles).

My issue is with what goes on every Saturday and Sunday morning, all season long. There is a points game, which is for men only. I really want to play in it but am not allowed to because I’m a woman. I’ve talked with a lot of the guys that play and I believe 75% of them would be fine with letting women play. They realize that there are only two or three of us that would even be interested in playing. It is a small minority of guys that are insisting on maintaining the status quo.

The most common response I get from the men is this: We wouldn’t mind if you played, but we don’t want to play with a woman that is going to be offended by our language or behavior, or play with some of the women they don’t care for.

My response to this has been:

They underestimate the language some women use on the course.

If they would have to play with a woman that would be offended, couldn’t they modify their behavior for one round of golf?

There are men they complain about having to play with, but when they get stuck with those guys they survive.

When teams are being randomly picked, let those men that object to playing with a woman state that ahead of time and just make sure they aren’t on the same team.

 

There are also a few guys that don’t want to play with any women.

This attitude was accepted 40 years ago, but I think it’s time for a change, especially when it’s a small minority that is making the decision.

 

The thing I like most about golf is that it doesn't matter if you are young, old, male, female, great or horrible, you can go out and play a round of golf with anyone (at least in my opinion).