Biggest mystery in equipment: Bounce

[Bad9]

Brian, I have followed the Maltby model for years and it works for me. I generally play a course with very hard turf, very soft sand and would generally be considered slightly shaggy with very small greens. Other than hitting an outright skull most wedges work just fine. I think the effect of bounce is overstated and certainly over thought by many players.

[Jaywh2]

For what it's worth, I think today's wedge grinds make bounce less relevant. Everyone seems to be leaning towards heel and toe relief for opening up the face and hitting from tighter lies. I agree that bounce is your friend. Find a good grind you hit consistently and stick with it. A good grind that works for me is vokey M grind which is almost the same as fourteen rm12. New mpt4 also are good. Don't get hung up the bounce numbers. Try several and pick the one that works best. Just a thought.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1389614227' post='8451049']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1389463695' post='8441773']
The details are way above my pay grade but there seem to be two schools of thought for chipping/pitching the ball from tight lies. One could be called "use the bounce" and the other "nip it cleanly" or something like that.

Maybe Hunter Mahan is an adherent of the "use the bounce" school.
[/quote]


The two "schools" you mention are maybe not only be true for wedges but also for shorter irons like 8 or 9 including PW:

- Ping with a clear tendency towards high bounce (Iron 8: 8*, PW: 12*)
- Mizuno and Titleist with low bounce (4-7*)
- Callaway or Taylor Made somewhere in between

That might be an explanation why i never got along with neither Ping nor with Mizuno/Titleist iron and always had better results with Callaway or Taylor made.
Of course bounce is just one element but it's an important one.
[/quote]

I always start by judging Leading edge VS Swing style

Digger = as flat as possible heel to toe
Picker = Deep curved heel to toe
Medium = a place in between the other

So, start by looking on the leading edge, then Static bounce, then sole area and sole length

The good thing is, a picker will have a shallow AoA so if he launch too high caused by high loft at impact he would not get bounce problem by going stronger in static loft, while a digger who is steep will by nature launch lower, and if we give him more loft, he will benefit from the bounce he gets on the deal.

[dcr147]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389455740' post='8441137']
I know [b]Bounce[/b] has been discussed a zillion times, but I'm no more clear on it today than I was 20 years ago. I know exactly what it does in sand and how to manipulate it ... apparently I still can't figure out what it does or doesn't do in other situations.

We all know the "Sliders or Pickers" need less bounce than Diggers ... you can read that anywhere.

Conventional wisdom is that tight lies demand lower bounce and softer/thicker lies require more bounce.

Then comes Hunter Mahan in this month's Golf Digest:

[color=#000080][i]"My Ping Tour Gorge wedges (53 and 58 degrees) have wide high-bounce soles (13 and 11 degrees, respectively). [b]Extra bounce helps me get up and down from tight lies.[/b]"[/i][/color]


Now doesn't that just toss conventional wisdom out the window?

Most of us know what bounce is, how to measure it and what it supposedly does for a club ... or do we?

BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving.[/color][/i]
[/quote]Do not try to make your clubs fit a tour pro's game. They know what they need and why and change wedge specs weekly/daily depending on a) ever changing course conditions and b) how they may be playing at that time. There are courses that Hunter will not be able to use those bounce angles on throughout the season, he knows that and it's a blanket statement.
IMO, read what clubs the pro's are using if you wish...but don't think that you could play with their sticks, just as they couldn't with yours.

[tembolo1284]

What an awesome thread!

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='dcr147' timestamp='1389627559' post='8451927']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389455740' post='8441137']
I know [b]Bounce[/b] has been discussed a zillion times, but I'm no more clear on it today than I was 20 years ago. I know exactly what it does in sand and how to manipulate it ... apparently I still can't figure out what it does or doesn't do in other situations.

We all know the "Sliders or Pickers" need less bounce than Diggers ... you can read that anywhere.

Conventional wisdom is that tight lies demand lower bounce and softer/thicker lies require more bounce.

Then comes Hunter Mahan in this month's Golf Digest:

[color=#000080][i]"My Ping Tour Gorge wedges (53 and 58 degrees) have wide high-bounce soles (13 and 11 degrees, respectively). [b]Extra bounce helps me get up and down from tight lies.[/b]"[/i][/color]


Now doesn't that just toss conventional wisdom out the window?

Most of us know what bounce is, how to measure it and what it supposedly does for a club ... or do we?

BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving.[/color][/i]
[/quote]Do not try to make your clubs fit a tour pro's game. They know what they need and why and change wedge specs weekly/daily depending on a) ever changing course conditions and b) how they may be playing at that time. There are courses that Hunter will not be able to use those bounce angles on throughout the season, he knows that and it's a blanket statement.
IMO, read what clubs the pro's are using if you wish...but don't think that you could play with their sticks, just as they couldn't with yours.
[/quote]

Very good suggestion here. If I were a pro, I would have a sack full of wedges with varying lofts and bounce and choose what I need for the course of the week (and even conditions of the day sometimes). I currently have 2 2 wedge sets. 1. Vokey SM4 52-8 (Full Grind) & 58-8 (S Grind) and 2. Vokey (Older model similar to E-grind) 50-10 56-12. If I KNOW i am going to be facing soft conditions, I opt for set 2. Firm conditions I opt for set 1.

You can't just say I'm a digger/picker/whatever and decide you need this or that grind. It all depends on where you play and the shots in your game. I love flop shots and have practiced them extensively over the years. I will tell you right now that set 1 is far easier to hit flops with than set 2, but that NOT SAYING I can't hit a flop with set 2 though. Also, I tend to pinch most chip shots and when doing that, the bounce really doesn't matter at all because of the shaft lean. As for sand, the softer it is the more bounce I prefer. It's not that I NEED it, it just makes the shots easier.

In order to have the right wedges for your game, you have to KNOW your game. KNOW what you need. Then, it's just a matter of picking what you like.

BT

[rbhan12]

I concur. Having a well established and practiced approach to your short game is critical when deciding on wedges. Know what you like to hit and work from there.

[backtees]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1389620883' post='8451383']
[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1389614227' post='8451049']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1389463695' post='8441773']
The details are way above my pay grade but there seem to be two schools of thought for chipping/pitching the ball from tight lies. One could be called "use the bounce" and the other "nip it cleanly" or something like that.

Maybe Hunter Mahan is an adherent of the "use the bounce" school.
[/quote]


The two "schools" you mention are maybe not only be true for wedges but also for shorter irons like 8 or 9 including PW:

- Ping with a clear tendency towards high bounce (Iron 8: 8*, PW: 12*)
- Mizuno and Titleist with low bounce (4-7*)
- Callaway or Taylor Made somewhere in between

That might be an explanation why i never got along with neither Ping nor with Mizuno/Titleist iron and always had better results with Callaway or Taylor made.
Of course bounce is just one element but it's an important one.
[/quote]

I always start by judging Leading edge VS Swing style

Digger = as flat as possible heel to toe
Picker = Deep curved heel to toe
Medium = a place in between the other

So, start by looking on the leading edge, then Static bounce, then sole area and sole length

The good thing is, a picker will have a shallow AoA so if he launch too high caused by high loft at impact he would not get bounce problem by going stronger in static loft, while a digger who is steep will by nature launch lower, and if we give him more loft, he will benefit from the bounce he gets on the deal.
[/quote]

sounds like me, this digger.....

[Manz60]

OP QUOTE:
"BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[size=4][i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving."[/color][/i][/size]


I think Maltby is referring to a[u] tight lie [/u]on soft turf...hitting fat would require less dig or more bounce. A [u]tight lie[/u] on hardpan...hitting fat would still require more dig, less bounce.
M60

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Manz60' timestamp='1389668231' post='8455907']
OP QUOTE:
"BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving."[/color][/i]


I think Maltby is referring to a[u] tight lie [/u]on soft turf...hitting fat would require less dig or more bounce. A [u]tight lie[/u] on hardpan...hitting fat would still require more dig, less bounce.
M60
[/quote]

That's one of the 2 situations that precipitated my original post.

My course in Florida has 2 holes, where the left side of the green is sloped hardpan ... it's instant double-bogey if you hit it there.

When I first joined this course, I would try to hit this shot with my SW, having most of my weight on my front foot and my hands well in front of the ball ... disaster.

I've since balanced my weight more in the center and moved my hands (shaft), more in line with the ball. Not great results, but markedly better. I'm not sure why, but it seems bounce must be helping.

[gunslinger2803]

So hypothetically speaking, a 54* wedge with 11* of bounce with a full sole grind, and a 58* wedge with 8* of bounce with a Vokey M grind for example (wider sole), may have the same or close to the same effective bounce?

Also, is there numerical representation for effective bounce or is it just represented by measurement of length and width?

[Cwebb]

[quote name='gunslinger2803' timestamp='1389709063' post='8457837']
So hypothetically speaking, a 54* wedge with 11* of bounce with a full sole grind, and a 58* wedge with 8* of bounce with a Vokey M grind for example (wider sole), may have the same or close to the same effective bounce?

Also, is there numerical representation for effective bounce or is it just represented by measurement of length and width?
[/quote]

You can measure it with something called a "triangle gauge". The Golfworks has them...
http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MA3012

[cardoustie]

Great posts RBHAN12, love them !

I want to post my personal wedge experiences in case it may help someone

I play off a 2.2 to a 4.5 during the year and wedges used to be the worst part of my game ... until I did the reverse of standardized thinking (I pulled a Constanza). I am a steep player, irons and chipping, and I add wrist c0ck on the down stroke when I chip and pitch.

My chipping miss was more often a thin shot. School of thought was I need lots of bounce, which was wrong for my case! My course generally has firm conditions and a 10 yard pitch off a tight lie was really a tricky play for me

Well ... I discovered Vokey M-grinds and my chipping / pitching improved dramatically overnight. Even my full shots were better. It seems the Cgrind with heel relief really works well for my stroke

I play a TVD M grind SM4 50.08 and have two new wedges coming in to replace my 54 and 59 SM2 tvd's.

I've ordered a second M-grind TVD in 56.11 (waiting on SM5 grooves) and a 62.07 T-grind SM5. This way I will have full gaps of 6*. All wedges are also 2* flat as I love how that helps with shots where I lower the handle

It was interesting to me what I read about the Tgrind and it seems just what I am looking for. I've had great success in past seasons with the 64.07 vokey's and a 62 should be just the ticket, especially with the leading edge even closer to the ground

Ironically, I also discovered in my experiments that high bounce SGI irons were awful for me in firm conditions, lots of bouncing and thin shots

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Manz60' timestamp='1389668231' post='8455907']
OP QUOTE:
"BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving."[/color][/i]


I think Maltby is referring to a[u] tight lie [/u]on soft turf...hitting fat would require less dig or more bounce. A [u]tight lie[/u] on hardpan...hitting fat would still require more dig, less bounce.
M60
[/quote]

Good point, but you have to remember that there is a difference between hard pan and bare dirt. I grew up in East Texas where we had iron rich soil. Red Dirt for a better description. This stuff was like concrete (which we also had a lot of). Take a low bounce wedge and slap the ground right at the back of the ball and there you go. No problem. However, get a mix of sand and dirt and the process changes immediately. This is why I like to feel the ground near the ball with my feet when assessing the shot. If it's the least bit soft, you better have some bounce or you will dig in and fluff the shot. The other predominant soil is the black dirt up near the DFW metroplex (similar to the gray dirt around Houston). If it is a little damp, it will grab the club right out of your hand if you try to pinch a wedge shot. I find my 8* bounce fits most of these situations cause I can de-loft (de-bounce?) and pinch on the dry stuff and open it up (add bounce) on the softer/damp stuff.

BTW, hardpan was the only surface where I liked to use a 60* or higher wedge.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='gunslinger2803' timestamp='1389709063' post='8457837']
So hypothetically speaking, a 54* wedge with 11* of bounce with a full sole grind, and a 58* wedge with 8* of bounce with a Vokey M grind for example (wider sole), may have the same or close to the same effective bounce?

Also, is there numerical representation for effective bounce or is it just represented by measurement of length and width?
[/quote]

If you're referring to my post, I'm not insinuating that at all. I actually do not agree with the "effective bounce" explanation posted earlier, I just didn't want to start an argument. Effective bounce is the actual amount of bounce that is used in a given situation. The earlier explanation was dead on for hardpan, but for soft soil or sand, the entire sole is "effective" because the sole embeds into the surface. In other words, in soft soil, a wide sole has more effective bounce than a narrow sole just because there is more surface area in contact with the soil.

BT

[jmck]

Here's how I used to judge wedges, way back before Vokey started stamping bounce numbers on them and bounce became a big thing. Hold a wedge at eye level in the playing position; lean the shaft forward, lean it back; roll the face open, roll it closed, all the while watching the sole and leading and trailing edges, imagining what it's going to do in various turf conditions for various shots.

Having the bounce number stamped on modern wedges hasn't done anything but confuse matters. IMO there a lot of dudes out there that would be better off scrapping their three (or four!) wedge setups, buying a 30 year old Hogan or Wilson sand wedge with a nice round leading edge and a big full sole that can be rolled open or shut very easily, and then figuring out how to hit every shot inside 75 yards with it.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1389721974' post='8459261']
Great posts RBHAN12, love them !

I want to post my personal wedge experiences in case it may help someone

I play off a 2.2 to a 4.5 during the year and wedges used to be the worst part of my game ... until I did the reverse of standardized thinking (I pulled a Constanza). I am a steep player, irons and chipping, and I add wrist c0ck on the down stroke when I chip and pitch.

My chipping miss was more often a thin shot. School of thought was I need lots of bounce, which was wrong for my case! My course generally has firm conditions and a 10 yard pitch off a tight lie was really a tricky play for me

Well ... I discovered Vokey M-grinds and my chipping / pitching improved dramatically overnight. Even my full shots were better. It seems the Cgrind with heel relief really works well for my stroke

I play a TVD M grind SM4 50.08 and have two new wedges coming in to replace my 54 and 59 SM2 tvd's.

I've ordered a second M-grind TVD in 56.11 (waiting on SM5 grooves) and a 62.07 T-grind SM5. This way I will have full gaps of 6*. All wedges are also 2* flat as I love how that helps with shots where I lower the handle

It was interesting to me what I read about the Tgrind and it seems just what I am looking for. I've had great success in past seasons with the 64.07 vokey's and a 62 should be just the ticket, especially with the leading edge even closer to the ground

Ironically, I also discovered in my experiments that high bounce SGI irons were awful for me in firm conditions, lots of bouncing and thin shots
[/quote]

Good post, but lets take this a step further....

A wedge with variable bounce would be nice, would n it ?, Ok then let me tell you about a sole grind that actually works as if it got variable bounce, adjusting itself to the surface we play.

I call this sole grin P/M grind, since its inspired by Bob Vokeys P grind and M grind in a combo.
You already noticed that the C shaped M grind sole works good for you, but the P grind added, makes a HUGE difference
P grind is a "channel" heel to toe, where bounce takes a "time out" the split second we have full ball contact, so even a high static bounce can be played on concrete hard fairways where we normally would be better off playing a low bounce wedge.

The same P/M grind can also be used on a LOW bounce wedge, to add playability in sand, so depending on swing style, we can get a wedge who plays well both in soft sand, or hard fairways no matter static bounce.
This sole grind is the most common i make, and for a Sand or Lob wedge or as a combo, its the most versatile sole grind i know. Go to the pinned topic on wedge grinding, and you will find a lot more info about it.

[Manz60]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389696122' post='8457161']
[quote name='Manz60' timestamp='1389668231' post='8455907']
OP QUOTE:
"BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving."[/color][/i]


I think Maltby is referring to a[u] tight lie [/u]on soft turf...hitting fat would require less dig or more bounce. A [u]tight lie[/u] on hardpan...hitting fat would still require more dig, less bounce.
M60
[/quote]

That's one of the 2 situations that precipitated my original post.

My course in Florida has 2 holes, where the left side of the green is sloped hardpan ... it's instant double-bogey if you hit it there.

When I first joined this course, I would try to hit this shot with my SW, having most of my weight on my front foot and my hands well in front of the ball ... disaster.

I've since balanced my weight more in the center and moved my hands (shaft), more in line with the ball. Not great results, but markedly better. I'm not sure why, but it seems bounce must be helping.
[/quote]

I wonder if its because that green has [b][u]sloped[/u][/b] hardpan that your finding more bounce is working.. i.e .if a tight lie on hardpan requires more dig, then hitting fat into that slope may be causing excessive dig. Keeping your shoulders parallel to the slope (ie matching the slope) and using bounce would heip keep the leading edge out of the slope.

I like Howards idea of using a versatile grind for a variety of turf conditions. After all, how many wedges can we carry !
M60

[dlygrisse]

First of all bounce is bad terminology, it scares the hell out of people making them think the club will bounce into the ball...NOT necessarily true. IF used correctly it will create a situation where the club will [b]slide[/b] (not bounce) along the ground and leave more margin for error. A shot hit slightly fat will move along the turf, or hard pan, and hit the ball in a way the shot is hardly affected in a negative way, hit it a little thin and you get a low spinner. Perfect contact, fat and thin will all end up reasonably close to the hole. For more research on the matter read up on Stan Utley, or buy Monte's short game video. Iteachgolf also has some nice Youtube videos on the matter and there is a good video with Ben Crane giving a clinic talking the same talk.

Not everyone will describe it the same, but you are using the bottom the the club to interact with the turf instead of the leading edge, that is the gist of it. The amount of bounce, sole grind, camber etc. all play into it, but most people who pitch in this method will generally use at lest a moderate amount of bounce. Think of brushing the grass under the ball with the bottom of the club, vertical shaft at impact, not forward leaning, keep the right arm moving, and release the club. Square stance, mostly square clubface, ....easy peasy.

[Hawkeye77]

Would love to see several super slo mo shots showing bounce in action on short chips or pitches close up, just for the interaction of club, ground, ball.

[rbhan12]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1389844690' post='8469351']
Would love to see several super slo mo shots showing bounce in action on short chips or pitches close up, just for the interaction of club, ground, ball.
[/quote]

I'm currently working on a method for that as we speak. Don't go telling my secret!

[Hstead]

As usual, Howard makes excellent points. I play an Edel 58* that has 26* of bounce, the sole is exactly as Howard described, the P/M grind. The leading edge of my Edel 58 with 26 bounce sits a nat hair lower than my Vokey TVD K 58 with 11* of bounce. Bounce has something to do with the leading edge height from the ground, but only half of the equation, as the length of the slope matters too, hence the reason my 26 sits lower than my 11. I can hit flops off of concrete with the Edel all day long. The best part about the Edel with the high bounce and P channel is that it rarely digs on partial shots, so I do not have to be precise and hit the ball first and on occasion I will intentionally hit the ground first behind the ball up to a couple of inches.

There are several videos on youtube of pro's talking about using more bounce and the "margin of error" built in allowing them to hit the ball slightly behind it with little to no consequences. For me, if I chose a low bounce wedge with low effective bounce, it is much more difficult to hit flops off of hard tight lies than my Edel with high bounce and high effective bounce. I learned this at least 4 years ago, that the "conventional wisdom" regarding tight lies and low bounce was not necessarily true.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

So whoever has said bounce is not that important. That is just sooo way off. Very important and makes the game much easier for anyone from hacks to pga pros. Anyone can say moving the shaft back or forward increases or decreases bounce but the majority of the time you using the club just standard just leaning a bit left of center. So a 10 bounce degree is a 10 bounce degree at that standard angle unless you lean forward...less bounce and will digg... or backward more bounce leading edge higher... both ways present a tougher chance at a good shot. Opening and closing the face also increases and decreases bounce. So just read your lie best you can and use accordingly. As far as what bounce number to use, ive used 8 bounce before understanding bounce and ive chunked and digged normal and soft grounds here in the northeast.. ball goes 5 yrds dirt goes 15 yrds.. I now havr a 10 bouncr s52 and its extremely versatile without digging. I can open close fairway rough with no problems. I just bought a s58 that im not too worried about anywhere else but the bunker but im sure that will just come down to technique. Ive had w56 12 bounce also which is not bad.. more useful in heavy roughs fluffy bunkers. Ive also hit good shots from the fairways with it. Ive also skulled balls from the bunker with it and made fantastic saves too, it all depends on repeatable good technique. 10 bounce seems to be the do it all bounce.

[Swingem]

Bounce will remain a mystery for many, until they learn its secrets. It reminds me of learning to telemark ski, It didn't make sense, or work....until it did.

[rt_charger]

The secret with bounce is to use it as much as possible. Part of the main reason lesser skilled played need more bounce is due to a tendency of leaving the leading edge low and not properly releasing the club through the turf. There's a great video with Luke Donald demonstrating bunker technique - he was one of the best wedge players in the world and I'm pretty sure led sand saves.

One thing that was summarized in that video was as your technique gets better you don't need as much bounce, regardless of your AoA or lies (lies have some effect but just exaggerate the problem).

I believe the trick is to really allow the club head to pass through the ball which will present more sole to the ground. This in turn will lead to cleaner shots and require less bounce. You never really want to allow the leading edge to go into the ground unless you're trying to hack the ball out somewhere.