Myth Busters or your very own WRX Snopes

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1392139251' post='8644637']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392120386' post='8642905']
6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.

[color=#000080][b]Really? Important to whom? Says who? Please show me some data that proves "fitting" has significantly improved the average player's scores. Average handicaps haven't changed in 30 years, in spite of the improvement in balls, clubs, course conditions and everything else that goes with golf ... including "fitting" become the ubiquitous "cure all". Club fitting is a myth for the average golfer of average proportions. There are at least 2 threads running right now, from guys who say it hurt their game.[/b][/color]

[/quote]

Isn't above contradicting to your blades vs. SGI comment? If avg. hcp not changing over last 30 years is evidence of 'fitting-not-changing-much', same reasoning should lead to 'SGI-not-helping-much' also.

I always say play the clubs that help your miss.... I hit the ball very very high, am prone to hooking in the long-irons and miss towards heel... tell me how SGIs (low COG, more offset and sweetspot towards the toe) going to help me?

For my miss, blades are more forgiving (high COG, less offset and sweetspot towards heel).
[/quote]

My miss is the same as yours, left and towards the heel. Maybe I'll get on eBay right now and find me some blades

Obviously there are going to be some golfers than just can't hit CB/GI clubs. I couldn't hit them for many years, I just couldn't stand the look of them. That said, I think there are way more players who simply can't get the clubface on the ball, consistently enough to play their best with blades. If Tour pros can't, the odds of the average 12-15 getting it done, are fairly slim.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392141496' post='8644877']
Yup, thanks for adding that bit and they are most definitely 'blades' if what DJ and Walker are playing are being considered 'blades'.

[/quote]

These are blades:

[buckwild307]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1391948002' post='8628215']
Interesting post...definitely on track...just not sure where to...
[/quote]
I haft to agree its very interresting

[duffer987]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392142696' post='8645033']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392141496' post='8644877']
Yup, thanks for adding that bit and they are most definitely 'blades' if what DJ and Walker are playing are being considered 'blades'.

[/quote]

These are blades:
[/quote]

Cheers for that, but I thought DJ was contracted to TMAG and playing the TP MBs and Walker to Titleist and playing the 714 MBs? Which you call flat out blades. I'm pretty sure those pics are not of the clubs DJ and Walker are using.

I was just trying to clarify your erroneous post earlier where you said 3 Callaway staffers were playing cavity back X Forged and that someone at Callaway said you should be a tour player to use them. When in fact they were playing - and he was referring to - Cally's MBs.

I like a pisstake reply as much as the next person, but your reply does not address the fact that you were wrong in your post about the Fedex Top 10 point earners and the style of irons they play.

[pingfool]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392141496' post='8644877']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392140730' post='8644783']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392138695' post='8644573']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392118371' post='8642835']
Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[b][i][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/i][/b]
[/quote]

Just to be accurate here, Luke Williams made those comments about the RAZR X Musclebacks[b] NOT[/b] the Callaway X Forged. Those two are very different clubs.
[/quote]

Per the Callaway site, Chris Kirk plays the RAZR X Musclebacks as does Brian Stuard and Patrick Reed.
[/quote]

Yup, thanks for adding that bit and they are most definitely 'blades' if what DJ and Walker are playing are being considered 'blades'.
I just wanted to call out the mistake (and hopefully not a [u][i][b]w[i][b]illf[/b][/i]ul misrepresentation) o[/b][/i][/u]f the post saying they are playing the X Forged. So really 7/10 of the Top 10 FedEx are playing 'flat out blades'.

I'm all for IMHO's, but [u][i][b]getting something factually incorrect and passing it off as being correct [/b][/i][/u]simply isn't on.
[/quote]

precedent has been established - e.g. ghin index -
since that was exposed I've been calling b.s. on everything else.

not sure I've ever seen someone quite so fos - and willing to prove it so willingly

[Soloman1]

It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[pingfool]

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - Confucius

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='tmfool ' timestamp='1392156002' post='8646799']
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - Confucius
[/quote]

Hey, then I must be really, really knowledgable.......because I know the extent of my ignorance, and it's a big, big extent!!

[smiley9929]

[quote name='buckwild307' timestamp='1392143008' post='8645073']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1391948002' post='8628215']
Interesting post...definitely on track...just not sure where to...
[/quote]
I haft to agree its very interresting
[/quote]
interesting but in danger of going off track now - there shouldve been no debate about so many simple factoids

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392156793' post='8646899']
[quote name='buckwild307' timestamp='1392143008' post='8645073']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1391948002' post='8628215']
Interesting post...definitely on track...just not sure where to...
[/quote]
I haft to agree its very interresting
[/quote]
interesting but in danger of going off track now - there shouldve been no debate about so many simple factoids
[/quote]
It's not so much that the OP's facts aren't mostly correct. It's that they're presented as 100% accurate and unarguable, with the tone that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

The perfect example is his idea that no double digit cap has any business playing blades. Meanwhile the OP has declared he plays like an "8 or 9" and yet says he can play most any equipment with no change in scoring. Apparently a couple strokes difference in scoring opens up a whole new ability to swing the club?

Is it crazy that this rubs more than a few the wrong way? Doesn't help that most of us are staring out the window at white snow and freezing temps! :-D

[smiley9929]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1392155011' post='8646659']
It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect.
[/quote]

I had to Google that and it was well worth the effort. Thank you sir.

[Royal]

Dunning-Kruger Effect..... will be used in many text battles amongst worthy adversaries..... thanks for the teach.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392143844' post='8645183']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392142696' post='8645033']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392141496' post='8644877']
Yup, thanks for adding that bit and they are most definitely 'blades' if what DJ and Walker are playing are being considered 'blades'.

[/quote]

These are blades:
[/quote]

Cheers for that, but I thought DJ was contracted to TMAG and playing the TP MBs and Walker to Titleist and playing the 714 MBs? Which you call flat out blades. I'm pretty sure those pics are not of the clubs DJ and Walker are using.

I was just trying to clarify your erroneous post earlier where you said 3 Callaway staffers were playing cavity back X Forged and that someone at Callaway said you should be a tour player to use them. When in fact they were playing - and he was referring to - Cally's MBs.

I like a pisstake reply as much as the next person, but your reply does not address the fact that you were wrong in your post about the Fedex Top 10 point earners and the style of irons they play.
[/quote]

I just went back and tried to check the sources I used this morning, when I posted that. There's apparently something wrong with the GOLF.com website, which is where I found the quote. You may very well be correct and his comments were specifically about the MB irons (I didn't even know there were 2 X Forged models). I'm not sure my point about that changes, if anything it probably holds more value. Callaway thinks only Pros (guys getting their equipment free) can play their blades. Unless I'm still reading it wrong somehow?

As for who's playing what, Patrick Reed is apparently playing a combination of the regular X Forged & the X Forged MB's. The other 2 players you mentioned are playing a full set of the MB's. So that means that 6 out 10 would be playing blades, 1 "combo" & 3 playing game improvement clubs of some sort.

For what it's worth, I'm shocked at what Callaway's guy had to say about the MB's. I haven't played any of the Xforged, so I don't have any first hand experience, but they look a lot more sophisticated than a typical "blade" as I envision them. When I think of blades, I think of Wilson Staff blades, the Maxfli Australian Blades or the Nike blades.

I'm not saying this to start an argument, but I view those Callaway MB's as more of a "player's club" than as a Blade ... which is why his comment surprises me so much.

2 guys in the Top Ten are playing PING S55 irons, which most would characterize as a "player's club", although I'm sure someone will come along and say they're blades too.

(Just so there's no mistake, I was wrong about exactly which X Forged those guys were playing. It wasn't intentional. In one case, the site I saw wasn't specific about them being "MB" and it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, because I wasn't aware there were 2 different models .)

[deck]

People please don't confuse one mans opinion as fact. It's an opinion. Facts can be researched and verified. opinions well....everyone has them.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1392155011' post='8646659']
It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect.
[/quote]

very nice reference. I actually have read about their studies at length and have used it before on this site! LOL

Serious props to you sir

[Parker0065]

[color=#ff0000][b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b][/color]

I've never hit a cast iron that's shaped and modeled [b]"exactly"[/b] like a normal forged blade so there may be something to that. But, having played forged blades most of my golfing life I will say there absolutely is a difference in feel between your standard forged blade and your standard cast "skillet sized" irons without a doubt!

[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

I will agree with you on this 100%

[color=#ff0000][b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b][/color]

I've rented clubs on vacations and ended up with some whippy "R Flex" where I really had to slow my tempo way down to keep the ball in play. Your general statement might apply to some but for the most part is incorrect.

[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

I again agree with you 100%! 39 years of competitive golf and I've never seen anyone hit the majority of the greens and still shoot 90's because of 3-4 jacks. I've seen single digit handicaps have bad days with numerous 3-putts shooting in the mid-high 80's, but never a high handicaper that was any kind of a good/great "ballstriker"!

[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

Amazing how so many people don't understand that if your a 90's shooter you get to a single digit by improving "ALL" aspects of your game, "NOT" just the short game! So again you are correct.

[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

In general I agree with you on this. Do most people need the newest White Board, 73XCY, blah, blah, blah to hit the ball well, absolutely not! With today's technology I think it's a good idea for your general player to find a proper fitter that can put them in the best OEM equipment for their hack-n-slash swing and set up that club to fit them as well as possible. The problem is most of those ego-inflated 7-handicap[i](think their scratch)[/i] sales reps that work at Dick's and Golf Galaxy aren't the best at properly fitting. It's really hit and miss, I've run into a handful that are knowledgable enough to be helpful but for the most part they are generally worthless.


So I agree with you on 4 of your 6 rants, the [color=#ff0000]other 2[/color] your smoking crack, or prozack, or something.
Puff,Puff,,,Pass!

[resnor]

I gotta say, I play the original Nike blades. It has nothing to do with shot shaping, or anything like that. It has to do with when I saw them, I was like, "Damn! I like those! Those are what I want to play!" And know what? I hit then just fine, cause I learned on them. Do I lose out in some aspect cause I'm not "good" enough to hit blades? Probably...but like I said, I'm usually on in three, and two or the putting kills my score.

[resnor]

I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='resnor' timestamp='1392167087' post='8648247']
I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.
[/quote]

Who could possibly do that? That would be averaging 26 Putts per round ... better than any PGA Tour player, by fairly large margin.

[Krt22]

10 one putts and 8 2 putts, where do i sign up for that putting lesson??



The highest 1 putt percentage on tour is 47.5% and best overall avg 27.3. Hitting 10 one putts is basically hitting 10 GIRs within 5 or 6 feet.

[Titleist 670]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392142206' post='8644959']
[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1392139251' post='8644637']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392120386' post='8642905']
6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.

[color=#000080][b]Really? Important to whom? Says who? Please show me some data that proves "fitting" has significantly improved the average player's scores. Average handicaps haven't changed in 30 years, in spite of the improvement in balls, clubs, course conditions and everything else that goes with golf ... including "fitting" become the ubiquitous "cure all". Club fitting is a myth for the average golfer of average proportions. There are at least 2 threads running right now, from guys who say it hurt their game.[/b][/color]

[/quote]

Isn't above contradicting to your blades vs. SGI comment? If avg. hcp not changing over last 30 years is evidence of 'fitting-not-changing-much', same reasoning should lead to 'SGI-not-helping-much' also.

I always say play the clubs that help your miss.... I hit the ball very very high, am prone to hooking in the long-irons and miss towards heel... tell me how SGIs (low COG, more offset and sweetspot towards the toe) going to help me?

For my miss, blades are more forgiving (high COG, less offset and sweetspot towards heel).
[/quote]

My miss is the same as yours, left and towards the heel. Maybe I'll get on eBay right now and find me some blades

Obviously there are going to be some golfers than just can't hit CB/GI clubs. I couldn't hit them for many years, I just couldn't stand the look of them. That said, I think there are way more players who simply can't get the clubface on the ball, consistently enough to play their best with blades. If Tour pros can't, the odds of the average 12-15 getting it done, are fairly slim.
[/quote]

And if a tour pro can't, the average a 5 - 10 handicapper being able to are slim to none as well.

I love how everyone with a sub 10 handicap acts like they're so much closer to a Tour Pro than a 10 - 15.

The whole who can play vs. who can't play blades debate absolutely cracks me up. Those who are so vehemently against anyone over a 10 or whatever number playing blades come off as unbelievably insecure.

[bladestriker]

I think a fair assumption would be, 9 out of 10 players who can't break 90 play GI irons too

[resnor]

I have three putted my share of 10 footers. LOL. Two putting a pretty straight 10 footer was pretty common for me last season, also. I don't think I should be two putting flat, straight ten footers. A bunch of the local courses I play have easy greens. For me, if I were putting well, I could easily shave 6-8 strokes a round off my scores. When I was shooting low 90's, the difference was definitely my putting/short game.

[golfdude300]

+1 post by BrianL. Too bad he got flamed along the way, but that's to be expected in the wild west of the internets. One thing I noticed in this thread about Pro GIR at around 65% on average that's less than 12 greens in regulation. But, keep in mind...landing on the fringe does not count as a GIR. So although they are officially missing more than 6 GIR on average they are still putting or chipping from a short distance quite often.

In closing, everyone should aspire to hit 12 greens in regulation a round.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Titleist 670' timestamp='1392169173' post='8648505']

The whole who can play vs. who can't play blades debate absolutely cracks me up. Those who are so vehemently against anyone over a 10 or whatever number playing blades come off as unbelievably insecure.
[/quote]

Now there is a piece if wisdom to take away from this thread. Bravo!

[smiley9929]

It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'. Ya know they wish they could bring themselves to play 'em but just don't have the moxy to pull it off.

When a higher capper steps onto the tee with blades in the bag the envy begins. Of course it's quickly denied and masked and projected onto the one with the blades as being 'not so smart' or 'their loss' or 'their clueless-ness'.

[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b]

[BrianL99]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']

It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'.
[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b]

[/quote]

I'm going to rush right out & buy myself a set of the bladiest blades I can find! I need more friggin' beauty in my life.

[backtees]

[b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b]

There are always cast irons which feel at least as soft and good as forged ones. One example was the Taylor Made Tour Preferred back in 2009. Everyone who hit that knows what I am talking about.


[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

From a rational point of view typical and real blades are dinosaurs and highly endangered. Even on the tour there are the longer the lewer blades. For an obvious reason.



[b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b]

It definitely is. No doubts!


[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

Not so sure. It might be true for mid handicaps, but for high handicaps who sometimes commit such a lot of errors from the tee and from the fairways? I think high handicaps which are good ball strikers are rare.


[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

THE key for lower scores are more fairway hits and greens in regulation. A good short game helps to shave of a few strokes, too, but the key is the long game.


[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

Nope. Sometimes I wish I wouldn’t “know” all the things I know about custom fitting. It worked more than well with those Uniflex-Shafts from Callaway a decade back…

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='resnor' timestamp='1392167087' post='8648247']
I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.
[/quote]

The easiest way to turn three putts into two putts is to hit it closer in the first place. Turning 5 two putts into one putts is the stuff dreams are made of.

You may however find this little titbit interesting: [url="http://thesandtrap.com/t/51757/pga-tour-putts-gained-make-percentage-stats"]http://thesandtrap.com/t/51757/pga-tour-putts-gained-make-percentage-stats[/url]

It shows what the average PGA Tour professional will take from each distance. Note that outside 8 feet they are more likely to miss than to make and from outside 33 feet they are more likely to 3 putt than 1 putt. These are the best in the world.

[resnor]

That makes me feel better...although I bet that on the easy greens I play, they wouldn't struggle from 10 feet and in.