Myth Busters or your very own WRX Snopes

[Ty_Webb]

I would think it more likely that they actually would. The greens they play are for the most part basically perfect. The greens you play are likely to be worse. I doubt if a machine could hole more than 50% of its putts on a typical green from 10 feet.

[backtees]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1392210423' post='8650909']
[quote name='resnor' timestamp='1392167087' post='8648247']
I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.
[/quote]

The easiest way to turn three putts into two putts is to hit it closer in the first place. Turning 5 two putts into one putts is the stuff dreams are made of.

You may however find this little titbit interesting: [url="http://thesandtrap.com/t/51757/pga-tour-putts-gained-make-percentage-stats"]http://thesandtrap.c...ercentage-stats[/url]

It shows what the average PGA Tour professional will take from each distance. Note that outside 8 feet they are more likely to miss than to make and from outside 33 feet they are more likely to 3 putt than 1 putt. These are the best in the world.
[/quote]

Very simple: The more often you hit a green in regulation and the closer you hit it to the pin the higher the chance for par or better.
Decent putting completes a decent ball striking. And even if the putting is not as good some is able to hold the game together.
But inferior ball striking will never allow to shoot good results as the golfer will never arrive on the green - at least not in regulation.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1392218962' post='8651747']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1392210423' post='8650909']
[quote name='resnor' timestamp='1392167087' post='8648247']
I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.
[/quote]

The easiest way to turn three putts into two putts is to hit it closer in the first place. Turning 5 two putts into one putts is the stuff dreams are made of.

You may however find this little titbit interesting: [url="http://thesandtrap.com/t/51757/pga-tour-putts-gained-make-percentage-stats"]http://thesandtrap.c...ercentage-stats[/url]

It shows what the average PGA Tour professional will take from each distance. Note that outside 8 feet they are more likely to miss than to make and from outside 33 feet they are more likely to 3 putt than 1 putt. These are the best in the world.
[/quote]

Very simple: The more often you hit a green in regulation and the closer you hit it to the pin the higher the chance for par or better.
Decent putting completes a decent ball striking. And even if the putting is not as good some is able to hold the game together.
But inferior ball striking will never allow to shoot good results as the golfer will never arrive on the green - at least not in regulation.
[/quote]

Here's what I think a lot of guys miss, when they start talking about how a great short game/good putting will change their scores dramatically. Guys on Tour are getting it up and down from [b]close to the green. [/b]The better your ball striking is, the closer you're going to be to the green and the less likely you're behind a tree with a downhill like, trying to get up & down.

As backtees said, if you're a lousy ball striker, you're probably not even close to the hole on the greens you hit. You won't have opportunities for Birdies and you'll have way more 3 putts.

Ball striking trumps putting/chipping almost every time.

[stage1350]

Utilizing the PGA Tour as a reason not to play blades doesn't take into account that these guys are playing for money.

Part of blades is the visceral experience of utilizing the irons in their most basic form.
There are auto-loaders and multi round shotguns. But purists still utilize a side by side double barrel even though it's regressive technology.
Formula 1 and most racers have gone to automatics and paddle shifting. But a true sports car still has a manual transmission.

I'd hate to see how many people's sphinchters would tighten if they got into a car with a clutch and 6-7 forward gears that they had to row these days.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1392220541' post='8651949']
Utilizing the PGA Tour as a reason not to play blades doesn't take into account that these guys are playing for money.

Part of blades is the visceral experience of utilizing the irons in their most basic form.
There are auto-loaders and multi round shotguns. But purists still utilize a side by side double barrel even though it's regressive technology.
Formula 1 and most racers have gone to automatics and paddle shifting. But a true sports car still has a manual transmission.

I'd hate to see how many people's sphinchters would tighten if they got into a car with a clutch and 6-7 forward gears that they had to row these days.
[/quote]

Some of us grew up with 3 speeds on the column!

[ABgolfer2]

This sounds like a Tee it Forward situation.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

For anyone wanting to calculate the odds of actually turning all those 2-putts into 1-putts, even if you were a tour level putter...

consider that you hit 9 GIR and you 2putt every green. lets say you decide you want to turn all 4 of those into 1putts. take the make % (based on previous 2010 link) of the 4 closest shots and multiply those together.

a quick example shows how difficult it really is to 'simply' turn 2 putts into 1 putts. even the odds of making both the 4ft AND 8ft putt are under 50%

4 closest shots are
1) 12ft
2) 8ft
3) 4ft
4)14ft

the odds of making all four putts are .3 x .49 x .86 x .25= 3.16% or in 100 attempts to make all 4 putts you would accomplish this 3 times. might vary slightly based on greens, etc but this shows how simply stating "i need to make more putts" isn't as easy as it sounds. if you are 3 putting, you can save shots. if you are 2 putting, hoping to make more than 1 additional putt per round isn't as easy as it sounds.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392220663' post='8651965']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1392220541' post='8651949']
Utilizing the PGA Tour as a reason not to play blades doesn't take into account that these guys are playing for money.

Part of blades is the visceral experience of utilizing the irons in their most basic form.
There are auto-loaders and multi round shotguns. But purists still utilize a side by side double barrel even though it's regressive technology.
Formula 1 and most racers have gone to automatics and paddle shifting. But a true sports car still has a manual transmission.

I'd hate to see how many people's sphinchters would tighten if they got into a car with a clutch and 6-7 forward gears that they had to row these days.
[/quote]

Some of us grew up with 3 speeds on the column!
[/quote]

Yep. Had an old Plymouth Valiant. Modern manual shifting/clutches are a breeze compared to some of the old three on the trees, at least for beginners.

[Imp]

I was reading this thread at lunch and came across this gem:
[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1392046754' post='8636287']It is not rocket surgery,[/quote]

I just wanted to say thank you for that quip.

--kC

[Imp]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1392224560' post='8652465']
Yep. Had an old Plymouth Valiant. Modern manual shifting/clutches are a breeze compared to some of the old three on the trees, at least for beginners.
[/quote]'74 Dart Swinger here. But I had a Hurst on the floor.

--kC
(Both of my current cars are rowable too, one 5 speeds and the other 6)

[stage1350]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1392224560' post='8652465']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392220663' post='8651965']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1392220541' post='8651949']
Utilizing the PGA Tour as a reason not to play blades doesn't take into account that these guys are playing for money.

Part of blades is the visceral experience of utilizing the irons in their most basic form.
There are auto-loaders and multi round shotguns. But purists still utilize a side by side double barrel even though it's regressive technology.
Formula 1 and most racers have gone to automatics and paddle shifting. But a true sports car still has a manual transmission.

I'd hate to see how many people's sphinchters would tighten if they got into a car with a clutch and 6-7 forward gears that they had to row these days.
[/quote]

Some of us grew up with 3 speeds on the column!
[/quote]

Yep. Had an old Plymouth Valiant. Modern manual shifting/clutches are a breeze compared to some of the old three on the trees, at least for beginners.
[/quote]

Nothing better than the non-hydraulic assisted clutch on a Muncie M-22 4 speed. You didn't need to do standing calf raises at the gym. If you were lucky, you couldn't see the difference between the size of your left calf compared to your right.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392219292' post='8651797']
[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1392218962' post='8651747']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1392210423' post='8650909']
[quote name='resnor' timestamp='1392167087' post='8648247']
I don't understand this thing people have about putting. If you have 10 two putts, three three putts, and five one putts, if you cut the three putts to two putts, you shave three strokes off. If five of the two putts are one putts, another 5 strokes off. That's 8 strokes off. Thats significant.
[/quote]

The easiest way to turn three putts into two putts is to hit it closer in the first place. Turning 5 two putts into one putts is the stuff dreams are made of.

You may however find this little titbit interesting: [url="http://thesandtrap.com/t/51757/pga-tour-putts-gained-make-percentage-stats"]http://thesandtrap.c...ercentage-stats[/url]

It shows what the average PGA Tour professional will take from each distance. Note that outside 8 feet they are more likely to miss than to make and from outside 33 feet they are more likely to 3 putt than 1 putt. These are the best in the world.
[/quote]

Very simple: The more often you hit a green in regulation and the closer you hit it to the pin the higher the chance for par or better.
Decent putting completes a decent ball striking. And even if the putting is not as good some is able to hold the game together.
But inferior ball striking will never allow to shoot good results as the golfer will never arrive on the green - at least not in regulation.
[/quote]

Here's what I think a lot of guys miss, when they start talking about how a great short game/good putting will change their scores dramatically. Guys on Tour are getting it up and down from [b]close to the green. [/b]The better your ball striking is, the closer you're going to be to the green and the less likely you're behind a tree with a downhill like, trying to get up & down.

As backtees said, if you're a lousy ball striker, you're probably not even close to the hole on the greens you hit. You won't have opportunities for Birdies and you'll have way more 3 putts.

Ball striking trumps putting/chipping almost every time.
[/quote]

They also do have phenomenal short games. Having a tour pro's short game would pretty much undoubtedly improve anyone's scores. Just not by as much as having their long game would. The short game may well be a whole heap more attainable for most though.

[HiSpeed48]

I think there are some outside factors that should also be taken into account when analyzing the short game "myth".

What affect does course familiarity have on someone's putting stats? Guys who belong to a club or a home course have more time to learn the greens, especially if they play and practice there hundreds of times a year. These guys usually have better putting stats than the average muni golfer who plays on multiple different courses and in turf conditions that are less than ideal.

Let's assume the muni golfer and the club golfer have the same hdcp, but the club golfer is a better putter and the muni golfer is a better ball striker. If you took them both and put them on a new course they've never played before who do you think would shoot the lower score?

Imo I think ball striking is a little easier to adapt from course to course, so a good ball striker will hit good shots almost anywhere. A guy who's a good putter at his home course might become more of an average putter at a new course. So even though on paper they are equal, the muni guy might actually be a better golfer per se.

On a side note, PGA Tour Pros play on many different courses and in tougher conditions. So the comparison between average golfer's stats and Tour stats doesn't really take that into account. I wonder what their putting stats would be if they played the same course over and over, like their home course?

Agree, disagree?

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='HiSpeed48' timestamp='1392229091' post='8653003']
I think there are some outside factors that should also be taken into account when analyzing the short game "myth".

What affect does course familiarity have on someone's putting stats? Guys who belong to a club or a home course have more time to learn the greens, especially if they play and practice there hundreds of times a year. These guys usually have better putting stats than the average muni golfer who plays on multiple different courses and in turf conditions that are less than ideal.

Let's assume the muni golfer and the club golfer have the same hdcp, but the club golfer is a better putter and the muni golfer is a better ball striker. If you took them both and put them on a new course they've never played before who do you think would shoot the lower score?

Imo I think ball striking is a little easier to adapt from course to course, so a good ball striker will hit good shots almost anywhere. A guy who's a good putter at his home course might become more of an average putter at a new course. So even though on paper they are equal, the muni guy might actually be a better golfer per se.

On a side note, PGA Tour Pros play on many different courses and in tougher conditions. So the comparison between average golfer's stats and Tour stats doesn't really take that into account. I wonder what their putting stats would be if they played the same course over and over, like their home course?

Agree, disagree?
[/quote]

I think that most of them are so good at reading putts and hitting them that the impact of playing mostly at one course would be smaller for the tour pros than for an average player. As to how they would score, I think that depends. Some people play better when there's no pressure. Some others play worse. How they would score on a course they were playing for fun that they were very familiar with would I suspect depend on which of those types of player they were.

[Sean2]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392220663' post='8651965']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1392220541' post='8651949']
Utilizing the PGA Tour as a reason not to play blades doesn't take into account that these guys are playing for money.

Part of blades is the visceral experience of utilizing the irons in their most basic form.
There are auto-loaders and multi round shotguns. But purists still utilize a side by side double barrel even though it's regressive technology.
Formula 1 and most racers have gone to automatics and paddle shifting. But a true sports car still has a manual transmission.

I'd hate to see how many people's sphinchters would tighten if they got into a car with a clutch and 6-7 forward gears that they had to row these days.
[/quote]

Some of us grew up with 3 speeds on the column!
[/quote]

Ha! I drove one of those...and drove a stick until the last vehicle I purchased.

[zer0]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1391950518' post='8628319']

5. I agree with this as well. While a good short game is important, if you're putting for a triple (because you hit two drives OB), it really doesn't help all that much. I always thought that old saw, "drive for show, and putt for dough", was a bit of a canard. Again, if you are trying to get up and down for a double or triple (because you can't keep your driver in play, or what have you), a good short game won't be that much of a help.


[/quote]

Totally agree. I've had lots of rounds where I've been terrible from 200 yards and in all day, but still scored in the mid 80s because I've hit just about every fairway off the tee. Once you get off the tee there's only so much trouble you can get in the rest of the hole and usually at worst you're talking about a double bogey as the end result. But, if you can't get off the tee that worst case scenario can sky rocket to a triple bogey and even worse.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='HiSpeed48' timestamp='1392229091' post='8653003']
On a side note, PGA Tour Pros play on many different courses and in tougher conditions. So the comparison between average golfer's stats and Tour stats doesn't really take that into account. I wonder what their putting stats would be if they played the same course over and over, like their home course?

Agree, disagree?
[/quote]

I actually had interesting experience this spring, as it relates to your post.

Qualifying for the Valspar PGA event at Innisbrook, is always at my home course in Florida. This year, I had the opportunity to take a pro's caddy around the front 9.

His player was playing the Asian Tour and was coming in to play the qualifier, but wasn't going to have an opportunity to play a practice round, so his caddy was scoping it out. After going around a couple of holes with the Caddy, it became obvious how the player was going to play the course, that was almost unknown to him ... he was going to hit to specific places, avoid places he shouldn't be and put on the line he and his caddy read (and/or what was shown in his Yardage Book). "Knowing the course" was almost irrelevant to the player. He was apparently had such good control of his shots, that if his caddy told him to "hit it 192, in line with the blue house", he would just do that. If the caddy told him a putt was 2 ball widths right side of the hole, he just hit it. I learned more about golf in that hour or so with his caddy, than I had learned in ages. Of the 20 guys from our club who tried to qualify, some pros & some + handicaps, no one made it through pre-qual.

This guy's pro qualified and shot the lowest score, other than a guy who used to be a member of our club (Tim Petrovic).

Another example.

I had a friend who was a 2 Time Honorable Mention All American out of Florida State. Led the NCAA Championship going into the 3rd round, one year ... good player.

He quit golf for a few years and when he got back into it (had been playing about a month), we played a local golf course that hosted a Champions Tour Event for almost 20 years. We only had time for 9 holes. He had never seen the golf course, nor even heard of it. He shot 31 with a Bogey.

So in response to your query, For a PGA Tour quality player, I don't think "knowing a course" is all that important to them. Would they putt a little better if they played it every day? I suppose a little better. But most any PGA Tour Player is probably going around his home course in 64-66 ... how much better could he get?

In my opinion, the above illustrates what really separates a PGA Tour quality player, from mini-tour guys and Scratch/+ guys. They're not really playing a golf course as us average guys do, they're shooting darts at targets they can hit almost every time. It's a different world.

[Krt22]

Some great material for the "you know you are on wrx" thread

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Krt22' timestamp='1392235615' post='8653841']
Some great material for the "you know you are on wrx" thread
[/quote]

Some of it has already made its way to that thread.

[pingfool]

is this more Kruger-Dunning ?

[duffer987]

[quote name='tmfool ' timestamp='1392236694' post='8654003']
is this more Kruger-Dunning ?
[/quote]

How I really am confused.
When did this turn into a thread about 'The Office'?

[QMany]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392234765' post='8653711']
So in response to your query, For a PGA Tour quality player, I don't think "knowing a course" is all that important to them.
[/quote]
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392234765' post='8653711']
The guy's pro qualified and shot the lowest score, [b]other than a guy who used to be a member of our club[/b] (Tim Petrovic).
[/quote]

[pingfool]

pointing out blatant contradictions - within the same post - just doesn't seem fair

[endurancechiro]

agree with a couple, but sorry, but 3 and 4 are way off base IMO. 5 is true if putting/chipping isn't the cause of your excess strokes (a 150 off line drive can screw you up just as much, if not more, than a bladed chip).

First hand experience with iron shaft stiffness (trackman confirmed), had a mislabled set of shaft in my clubs, they were playing a soft regular instead of stiff. Changed the shafts out and tempo improved, smash improved, and distance went up by a club and a half through the bag. This was done over a 10 day period so there were no magic swing fixes done...

On the good ball striking and bad putting one. I got my hcp to its lowest point about 18 months ago (low score 76), striking the ball insanely well and knew exactly what was going to happen, EXCEPT on the green. I was averaging around 84, with OVER 38 strokes from putting (many days had 40)! I was comfortable standing over any ball that was outside 20 yards, inside that point I looked like I'd never seen a club before.

The point here is, just like the swing, equipment, or anything else in this game, there are no generalizations that can be made as hard fact. Many people play this game many different ways, and it will continue to be that way...

[smiley9929]

[quote name='chirotennis' timestamp='1392242261' post='8654671']
The point here is, just like the swing, equipment, or anything else in this game, there are no generalizations that can be made as hard fact. Many people play this game many different ways, and it will continue to be that way...
[/quote]

This, my friend, makes WAY too much sense for this thread. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392207339' post='8650719']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']
It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'.
[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b]

[/quote]

I'm going to rush right out & buy myself a set of the bladiest blades I can find! I need more friggin' beauty in my life.
[/quote]

Now we've gotten down to what was behind this whole thread to begin with.

[Balloon]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391946205' post='8628181']
Admittedly, I have too much time on my hands this morning, but after reading a couple of posts in one of the ubiquitous "blades vs CB/GI" threads, I can't resist.

The Big Lies on WRX (& other boards).

[/quote]

I mostly agree with you.

I disagree with you on number two. An incapable "player" does not miss the sweet spot by 1/8 of an inch. He has severe swing problem no "forgiving" club could repair. If you miss the ball at all, it does not matter what club you used.

You are VERY much right with number four and five. A "good ball striker" needs no chipping. He hits the green.

[smiley9929]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392247209' post='8655275']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392207339' post='8650719']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']
It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'.
[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b]

[/quote]

[b][color=#ff0000]I'm going to rush right out & buy myself a set of the bladiest blades I can find! I need more friggin' beauty in my life.[/color][/b]
[/quote]

Now we've gotten down to what was behind this whole thread to begin with.
[/quote]

[b][size=5]Here's the entire post I made. Now the OP's post in response to it (quoted above) has managed to disappear. [/size][/b]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']
[size=6]It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'. Ya know they wish they could bring themselves to play 'em but just don't have the moxy to pull it off.

When a higher capper steps onto the tee with blades in the bag the envy begins. Of course it's quickly denied and masked and projected onto the one with the blades as being 'not so smart' or 'their loss' or 'their clueless-ness'.

[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b][/size]
[/quote]

SAD.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

the OP has deleted more than one post in this thread....

[BrianL99]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392248099' post='8655395']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392247209' post='8655275']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392207339' post='8650719']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']
It's called '[b]blade envy[/b]'.
[b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b]

[/quote]

[b][color=#ff0000]I'm going to rush right out & buy myself a set of the bladiest blades I can find! I need more friggin' beauty in my life.[/color][/b]
[/quote]

Now we've gotten down to what was behind this whole thread to begin with.
[/quote]

[b][size=5]Here's the entire post I made. Now the OP's post in response to it (quoted above) has managed to disappear. [/size][/b]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392206898' post='8650697']

[size=6][b]In reality it's a friggin beautiful thing to have a set of blades in your bag no matter your handicap.[/b][/size]
[/quote]

SAD.
[/quote]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1392249533' post='8655555']
the OP has deleted more than one post in this thread....
[/quote]

[b]Not to put too fine of a point on it gentlemen, but my post is still there. It is post #147 if you'd like to refresh your memory or I've included it below.[/b]

[b]Apology accepted.[/b]