Myth Busters or your very own WRX Snopes

[mshills]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392040776' post='8635681']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392039107' post='8635517']

Now who is ignoring facts?

[/quote]

2 Questions for you, Chief.

When's the last time you legitimately broke 80?

How many times have you shot under 75 ?

[/quote]

I am attempting to follow the numerous threads within this thread and I'm confused on how this is relevant. Maybe I missed something or a post was deleted?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1392079524' post='8640383']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392040776' post='8635681']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392039107' post='8635517']
Now who is ignoring facts?

[/quote]

2 Questions for you, Chief.

When's the last time you legitimately broke 80?

How many times have you shot under 75 ?

[/quote]

I am attempting to follow the numerous threads within this thread and I'm confused on how this is relevant. Maybe I missed something or a post was deleted?
[/quote]

Yes, there was a post deleted. & you're right, it shouldn't have been relevant in any way, shape or form.

I posted a link to my personal, GolfShot account and the statistics for my last 487 rounds. Rather than accept that I'm perfectly willing to share actual, accumulated statistics that verify how my handicap is derived, someone decided that was a perfect opportunity to find a new and inventive avenue of attack. I thought it best to just remove the link and statistics.

[stage1350]

Many people have commented on this site (tongue in cheek) that there are no better game improvement irons than forged blades. As an irony, they will also help you by limiting your distance on mishits. Someone knocking one off the toe 30° offline has a better chance of avoiding OB or getting into deep rough or woods.

If you go back to the pre-Ping days, you didn't really have a choice but to play forged blades. If you wanted to play the game, you learned how to hit the clubs. For some reason, people literally believe blades to be unhittable. It's the same way when they see shafts heavier than 80g in the driver. We used to play 120g+ steel in everything.

People have elevated heavy gear, X shafts, and blades into this mythical unicorn territory. They myth that needs to be busted is that anyone can play these clubs. Are they the best fit? Maybe not. But they aren't unhittable.

Forgiveness is a crutch. If your club face is coming into impact wide open, no amount of perimeter weighting is going to make the ball straighter.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392045247' post='8636131']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392045143' post='8636113']
waste of keystrokes and energy debating with the One
[/quote]

Indeed. On the bright side I believe I've been blocked for the first time. I feel like I've passed into manhood!
[/quote]

Since getting his own myth busted in another "manifesto" thread he started about handicaps wherein he was shown to be misrepresenting his own handicap, has been on a raconteur run of late.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1392088463' post='8641565']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392045247' post='8636131']
[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392045143' post='8636113']
waste of keystrokes and energy debating with the One
[/quote]

Indeed. On the bright side I believe I've been blocked for the first time. I feel like I've passed into manhood!
[/quote]

Since getting his own myth busted in another "manifesto" thread he started about handicaps wherein he was shown to be misrepresenting his own handicap, has been on a raconteur run of late.
[/quote]

But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[Bronco01]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392067683' post='8639009']
[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1392063464' post='8638517']
I have to agree with Chief when it comes to swing speed being an important factor in playing blades. i think this is also a factor in why so many ladies on the lpga use game improvement or at least shy away from the MB irons.

Only other question I have, is if you've already admitted you're a short hitter and you seem to be pretty straight off the tee, you are just having trouble reaching many of the greens in two, why do you talk about moving to shorter tees 'in a couple of years'? Why call them senior tees in the first place? The color tee someone plays should be based on distance they hit their tee shots, not their age. why not move up now? i only wonder if not moving up to a shorter tee and calling them the 'senior' tees also plays a part in your unwillingness to play anything other than blades with a slower swingspeed.

[/quote]

I'm curious ... what's your reasoning why somewhere around 60% of the PGA Touring Pros, don't use blades?

As for "Senior Tees", that's what they are. I shoot in the 70's almost as often as I shoot in the 80's, why should I move up? I'm perfectly happy with shooting the numbers I shoot.

& I don't play blades and it has nothing to do with swingspeed, it has to do with the fact that 95% of the golfing population aren't good enough to play blades ... they just think they are.
[/quote]Before I really get started...OP thanks for the thread, it's brightened an otherwise dull night while the wife watches crappy reality TV shows. Now...you have certainly been around long enough to know better than to make sweeping generalities. Your quote about the fact that GI/CB (or basically non blades) are used by 60% of tour players really doesn't prove anything, as it also establishes that 40% of tour players therefore do choose to play blades, including Tiger, Adam Scott, Justin Rose (combo set), and Rory McIlroy within the top 10. Now to compare an average golfer to these guys is beyond ridiculous, however if the "facts" as you present them are so black & white in favour of "non bladed" irons, you know these guys would NOT be playing blades.

Don't you think there's maybe something about blades that these players prefer? And maybe, on a lesser scale, there's something about blades that some average players prefer?

I play a combo set (MP64/MP69) with the MP69s from 7-PW. Personally (as a result of many years playing golf) I don't believe CB/GI irons offer any significant performance benefits in those clubs (7-PW) for me. I did hedge my bets a little by going 4-6 in the MP64 based mainly on the fact that I wasn't able to demo anything other than the standard 6 iron. I went into a fitting (yes I know, also something you disagree with) with an open mind, but probably if I'm honest favouring a set of MP64s. Probably more on a hunch than anything the fitter gave me the MP69 6 iron during the fitting. The difference between the numbers & quality of strike/ball flight etc between the MP69 and all the other irons I demo'd (Mizuno MP59, MP64, JPX825 Pro, Callaway X Forged, AP2) was considerable, and I chose my set based on my results.

Now as to personal preference, the last thing in the world that I want to look down at is a clunky GI iron. It's not snobbery, I simply consider them ugly and thick and they do not leave me with any feeling of confidence. Yes I do care what my gear looks like. I also brush my teeth and comb my hair because I want to appear presentable, although it would easier not to care, right? If I'm not getting measurable benefit by switching to a GI set from an aesthetically pleasing set of "blades" you can bet I'm not going to do it.

I do agree with you that blades aren't for most higher handicappers, but clearly we're going to disagree on the degree of benefit offered by GI irons. I agree with much of the rest of what you have posted (although still think fitting is important for anyone with a swing that is reasonable consistent), but maybe you could cool it a little on the "blade" hate. As I said, GI irons aren't for me, but I have absolutely no issue with anyone else who wants to use them. None of my business & frankly I just don't have an opinion on what equipment other people use.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392101896' post='8642591']

But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[/quote]

That's untrue.

I said I only [b]measure[/b] quality shots. I don't have any need to know the distance I can shank a 7 iron.

[toc]

I love this thread

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Bronco01' timestamp='1392112476' post='8642749']


I do agree with you that blades aren't for most higher handicappers, but clearly we're going to disagree on the degree of benefit offered by GI irons. I agree with much of the rest of what you have posted (although still think fitting is important for anyone with a swing that is reasonable consistent), but maybe you could cool it a little on the "blade" hate. As I said, GI irons aren't for me, but I have absolutely no issue with anyone else who wants to use them. None of my business & frankly I just don't have an opinion on what equipment other people use.

[/quote]

I don't hate blades, I played them for many years. Up until 2 years ago, I played Tommy Armour Forged SIlverBacks combo set, with the 7-PW being muscle backs.

There is no question that blades are more versatile, in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. My "quarrel" with blades isn't with the clubs, it's with the double digit handicappers who essentially claim their talent and prowess with an iron, is too much for CB/GI clubs ... they need blades to truly take advantage of their talent. Baloney! 9 out of 10 guys who can't break 80 (or 90) who are using blades, are using them to satisfy their ego or to present themselves as better players than they really are.

How many times have you seen a grossly overweight person and been told, "oh, he/she has a gland problem" ? 9 out of 10 of those people have an eating problem. My friend Sean2 will be sporting blades this year with his 9 handicap. He's the 1 out of 10 who has the gland problem.

Of the Top Ten in Fedex Points so far this year, there are (4) guys using flat out blades: Dustin Johnson, Jimmy Walker, Webb Simpson & Kevin Stadler.

There are (2) players using PING irons: Harris English and Ryan Moore.

Zach Johnson is playing AP2's ... modified cavity backs.

Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[b][i][size=4][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/size][/i][/b]

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391946205' post='8628181']
Admittedly, I have too much time on my hands this morning, but after reading a couple of posts in one of the ubiquitous "blades vs CB/GI" threads, I can't resist.

The Big Lies on WRX (& other boards).


[b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b]

Back in the early 90's, the Ben Hogan golf company made the Edge GCD club in a forged model and a cast model. They were virtually identical (the cast model had about 1* more offset in the longer clubs). There were numerous tests done and I personally conducted a random, non-scientific test, as I owned both models. No one could consistently pick out the forged vs cast club.

[color=#0000cd][b]There is nothing inherent in the construction process of forged vs cast, that makes forged clubs feel any softer than cast clubs. Anyone who's hit PING Ansers and PING I20's side by side can confirm that forged doesn't equal 'softer feel". [/b][/color][color=#0000cd][b] It is all about head design, center of gravity, weight distribution, MOI, sound and a raft of other factors unrelated to the manufacturing process.[/b][/color]



[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

Of course they are, but only if you're more concerned about your ego and how you're perceived by other players. (Or don't care about your scores, you just love the feel.)

[color=#0000cd][b]In general, CB/GI/SGI clubs are much more forgiving than traditional blades. How anyone can argue this truism, is beyond my comprehension.[/b][/color]



[b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b]

Maybe in a driver or perhaps even in fairway woods, but when it comes to irons, shaft stiffness just isn't very important.

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...o-help-you-all/[/url][/b][/color]



[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

The above has always been one of my favorites on WRX and other golf boards. This mystical person doesn't exist. It's illogical and a product of one's ego, attempting to alter reality.

[color=#0000CD][b]If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes. [/b][/color]



[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

That old wive's tale has been perpetuated for years and I'll give Dave Pelz credit for being the evangelist in the forefront. It's nonsense and most any statistician can quote a zillion numbers to show it's not as important as we're lead to believe. WRX's own Richie Hunt has posted numerous times on the subject. That's not to say that "great putting" doesn't make a difference, but within the "normal range" for putting, it's not so important. For now, here are a few references:

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/molinaris-revolution-long-game-trumps-short-game/"]http://www.golfchann...mps-short-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.strikergolfgps.com/golf-statistics-improve-your-golf-game/"]http://www.strikergo...your-golf-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/10/23/stat-dude-long-game-is-more-important-than-short-game.html"]http://www.geoffshac...short-game.html[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfmanna.com/Pages/Article.aspx?Id=54"]http://www.golfmanna...icle.aspx?Id=54[/url][/b][/color]



[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

Hmmmm .... maybe I should stick with the BIG 5 Myths and leave 6-10 for another day.
[/quote]

1. Good clubs are good clubs. The process to make them doesn't matter.
2. Please define higher handicappers. Higher than what. If you have a half decent swing it won't matter [i][u][b]much[/b][/u][/i] what the shape of the piece of metal is on the end of the shaft. If your swing sucks it won't much matter either.
3. Again define average golfer. Just think you're flat wrong here unless your mythical average golfer is the senior women at the course on Thursday afternoons.
4. Not sure again what your definition is of high handicap. Just think you're full of soup on this one. I wish I had the chipping and putting skills of some of my friends. I'd easily cut my handicap in half or more. I'm a 7 and I play with a guy who is a 2 who hits it all over the place tee to green but he always chips it close, gets up and down very consistently and almost never 3-putts. If all you ever saw were our games tee to green you'd think I'd never lose to him but the exact opposite is true.
5. Perhaps FOR YOU chipping and putting are not important but they sure are for the rest of us. See post 4 above.
6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote] [color=#282828]Of the Top Ten in Fedex Points so far this year, there are (4) guys using flat out blades: Dustin Johnson, Jimmy Walker, Webb Simpson & Kevin Stadler.[/color]

[color=#282828]There are (2) players using PING irons: Harris English and Ryan Moore.[/color]

[color=#282828]Zach Johnson is playing AP2's ... modified cavity backs.[/color]


[color=#282828]Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. [/color] [/quote]

I think you accidentally swerved into the point I would make in that it doesn't much matter what shape the piece of metal is on the end of the stick. Play whatever you like. The benefits of clubs other than blades are ridiculously overstated. If you're a good player it won't matter....you'll still be a good player. If you suck it won't matter either. Find clubs YOU like and stick with them.

The biggest myth of all is that buying this year's latest greatest GI set of irons will magically improve your game. If you really want to improve your game stick with last year's irons and build upon what you did the season before and the season before that and the season before that.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392120386' post='8642905']


2. Please define higher handicappers. Higher than what. If you have a half decent swing it won't matter [i][u][b]much[/b][/u][/i] what the shape of the piece of metal is on the end of the shaft. If your swing sucks it won't much matter either.

[color=#000080][b]According to last month's Golf Digest Hot List, they consider a handicap of 5-14 a "mid-handicapper" & 14+ a "high handicap".[/b][/color]

3. Again define average golfer. Just think you're flat wrong here unless your mythical average golfer is the senior women at the course on Thursday afternoons.

[color=#000080][b]See above.[/b][/color]


4. Not sure again what your definition is of high handicap.

[color=#000080][b]See above.[/b][/color]

Just think you're full of soup on this one. I wish I had the chipping and putting skills of some of my friends. I'd easily cut my handicap in half or more. I'm a 7 and I play with a guy who is a 2 who hits it all over the place tee to green but he always chips it close, gets up and down very consistently and almost never 3-putts. If all you ever saw were our games tee to green you'd think I'd never lose to him but the exact opposite is true.

[color=#000080][b]The statistics would suggest that you're wrong. Putting isn't the answer to lower scores, ball striking is. If you think you can wake up one morning and go from 7 to 2, by improving your putting, I have a bridge for sale.[/b][/color]

5. Perhaps FOR YOU chipping and putting are not important but they sure are for the rest of us. See post 4 above.

[color=#000080][b]See above[/b][/color].


6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.

[color=#000080][b]Really? Important to whom? Says who? Please show me some data that proves "fitting" has significantly improved the average player's scores. Average handicaps haven't changed in 30 years, in spite of the improvement in balls, clubs, course conditions and everything else that goes with golf ... including "fitting" become the ubiquitous "cure all". Club fitting is a myth for the average golfer of average proportions. There are at least 2 threads running right now, from guys who say it hurt their game.[/b][/color]

[/quote]

Just my opinion, I'm sure everyone else's mileage will vary, depending on their horse in the race.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392041327' post='8635729']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']
Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]



As for my clubs? I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with.


[/quote]

You do realize that with this one sentence you contradicted your entire thread. If it doesn't matter what clubs and you really don't care then why start the thread?

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392120386' post='8642905']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391946205' post='8628181']
Admittedly, I have too much time on my hands this morning, but after reading a couple of posts in one of the ubiquitous "blades vs CB/GI" threads, I can't resist.

The Big Lies on WRX (& other boards).


[b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b]

Back in the early 90's, the Ben Hogan golf company made the Edge GCD club in a forged model and a cast model. They were virtually identical (the cast model had about 1* more offset in the longer clubs). There were numerous tests done and I personally conducted a random, non-scientific test, as I owned both models. No one could consistently pick out the forged vs cast club.

[color=#0000cd][b]There is nothing inherent in the construction process of forged vs cast, that makes forged clubs feel any softer than cast clubs. Anyone who's hit PING Ansers and PING I20's side by side can confirm that forged doesn't equal 'softer feel". [/b][/color][color=#0000cd][b] It is all about head design, center of gravity, weight distribution, MOI, sound and a raft of other factors unrelated to the manufacturing process.[/b][/color]



[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

Of course they are, but only if you're more concerned about your ego and how you're perceived by other players. (Or don't care about your scores, you just love the feel.)

[color=#0000cd][b]In general, CB/GI/SGI clubs are much more forgiving than traditional blades. How anyone can argue this truism, is beyond my comprehension.[/b][/color]



[b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b]

Maybe in a driver or perhaps even in fairway woods, but when it comes to irons, shaft stiffness just isn't very important.

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...o-help-you-all/[/url][/b][/color]



[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

The above has always been one of my favorites on WRX and other golf boards. This mystical person doesn't exist. It's illogical and a product of one's ego, attempting to alter reality.

[color=#0000CD][b]If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes. [/b][/color]



[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

That old wive's tale has been perpetuated for years and I'll give Dave Pelz credit for being the evangelist in the forefront. It's nonsense and most any statistician can quote a zillion numbers to show it's not as important as we're lead to believe. WRX's own Richie Hunt has posted numerous times on the subject. That's not to say that "great putting" doesn't make a difference, but within the "normal range" for putting, it's not so important. For now, here are a few references:

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/molinaris-revolution-long-game-trumps-short-game/"]http://www.golfchann...mps-short-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.strikergolfgps.com/golf-statistics-improve-your-golf-game/"]http://www.strikergo...your-golf-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/10/23/stat-dude-long-game-is-more-important-than-short-game.html"]http://www.geoffshac...short-game.html[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfmanna.com/Pages/Article.aspx?Id=54"]http://www.golfmanna...icle.aspx?Id=54[/url][/b][/color]



[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

Hmmmm .... maybe I should stick with the BIG 5 Myths and leave 6-10 for another day.
[/quote]

1. Good clubs are good clubs. The process to make them doesn't matter.
2. Please define higher handicappers. Higher than what. If you have a half decent swing it won't matter [i][u][b]much[/b][/u][/i] what the shape of the piece of metal is on the end of the shaft. If your swing sucks it won't much matter either.
3. Again define average golfer. Just think you're flat wrong here unless your mythical average golfer is the senior women at the course on Thursday afternoons.
4. Not sure again what your definition is of high handicap. Just think you're full of soup on this one. I wish I had the chipping and putting skills of some of my friends. I'd easily cut my handicap in half or more. I'm a 7 and I play with a guy who is a 2 who hits it all over the place tee to green but he always chips it close, gets up and down very consistently and almost never 3-putts. If all you ever saw were our games tee to green you'd think I'd never lose to him but the exact opposite is true.
5. Perhaps FOR YOU chipping and putting are not important but they sure are for the rest of us. See post 4 above.
6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.
[/quote]

I believe I can answer #2 for the OP:

He's stated he's a 6, but plays more like an "8 or 9" and his good handicap is largely based on superior course management, straight driver, and no blow up holes. He's also stated he could play almost any clubs and still shoot to his handicap.

He's also just stated that most double digit handicaps have no business playing blades.

So there you go. If you're a 9 you can play blades and will see no difference in score. If you're a 10 and play blades, prepare to lose 5 strokes a side! Also there's a 90% chance you're morbidly obese.

*not 100% sure of last statement

Edit: Surfduffer beat me to it by about 30 seconds... :-)

[BrianL99]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392121651' post='8642963']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392041327' post='8635729']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']
Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]



As for my clubs? I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with.


[/quote]

You do realize that with this one sentence you contradicted your entire thread. If it doesn't matter what clubs and you really don't care then why start the thread?
[/quote]

I fail to see the contradiction.

I think most anyone can play around their handicap with just about any set of clubs and more importantly, with only about 6 of them in their bag. If long term improvement is one's goal, i think it's smarter to introduce consistent implements and use clubs appropriate for your skill level.

As for starting the thread? That's what a golf forum is for. Or perhaps the moderators should lock down the "start a new thread" link and we can only comment on the currently running threads?

[Sean2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392114544' post='8642773']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392101896' post='8642591']
But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[/quote]

That's untrue.

I said I only [b]measure[/b] quality shots. I don't have any need to know the distance I can shank a 7 iron.
[/quote]

Brian is an honest man. I remember in one thread he talked about posting a 12 on one hole during a tournament. It doesn't get more honest than that.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392125153' post='8643223']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392114544' post='8642773']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392101896' post='8642591']
But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[/quote]

That's untrue.

I said I only [b]measure[/b] quality shots. I don't have any need to know the distance I can shank a 7 iron.
[/quote]

Brian is an honest man. I remember in one thread he talked about posting a 12 on one hole during a tournament. It doesn't get more honest than that.
[/quote]

Thanks Sean.

I understand that my opinions are sometimes unpopular, that's ok. We're all entitled to them and a forum is designed to discuss and disagree. I call 'em like I see 'em and I do it under my own byline. I don't hide behind my computer, using an anonymous, internet alias, while I lob hand grenades over the fence.

It's a tough job, but it's winter in New England, so someone has to do it ;-)

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392125153' post='8643223']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392114544' post='8642773']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392101896' post='8642591']
But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[/quote]

That's untrue.

I said I only [b]measure[/b] quality shots. I don't have any need to know the distance I can shank a 7 iron.
[/quote]

Brian is an honest man. I remember in one thread he talked about posting a 12 on one hole during a tournament. It doesn't get more honest than that.
[/quote]

Didn't challenge anyone's honesty whatsoever. I was in error for thinking a good shot was a quality shot.

I also posted about making an 11 in a tournament this summer after shooting a very nice (for me) front.

[toc]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392127189' post='8643401']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392125153' post='8643223']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392114544' post='8642773']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392101896' post='8642591']
But...he's posted statistics for 487 rounds where he's counted his good shots. I wish I didn't have to record my bad shots.

[/quote]

That's untrue.

I said I only [b]measure[/b] quality shots. I don't have any need to know the distance I can shank a 7 iron.
[/quote]

Brian is an honest man. I remember in one thread he talked about posting a 12 on one hole during a tournament. It doesn't get more honest than that.
[/quote]

Didn't challenge anyone's honesty whatsoever. I was in error for thinking a good shot was a quality shot.

I also posted about making an 11 in a tournament this summer after shooting a very nice (for me) front.
[/quote]

This is turning into a bit of a pissing contest. Let's debate without the "oh yea? Well I..." stuff.

[geesecougar2]

I would disagree with #3 and #4.

With irons it's important to get a shaft that you can baby a shot or hit full. If you have to swing 100% to get something out of your irons then they are too stiff. That being said, having too soft of a shaft is less of a detriment for irons than for the driver.

If you shoot in the mid to low 80s and three putt 4 or more times a round, that's a problem. "Good" ball striker is relative; the question in this context is, "Are you a good enough ballstriker to shoot in the 70's with a decent short game?"

[Itsjustagame]

"Often wrong, never in doubt"
That's what internet forums are about (don't even look at a political forum if that bothers you) and this one is no exception.
Blades vs. GI/SGI is like arguing shades of gray- everyone will see something different.
OP readily admits to being bored by winter and willing to bait people, and 4 pages later it's working.

[joey2aces]

I just dropped off a head and shaft to my local club maker so he can put the Jetspeed adapter sleeve on and take off an older adapter sleeve..... funny side note when I called golf galaxy and golf warehouse to see if they had the sleeve in stock they BOTH said they don't have the Jetspeed HEADCOVERS.... OI VEY!........ I digress...

When I dropped it off he said he would spine it to my desired setting but that to "spine" a shaft (at no cost) is really just a revenue generator for the big box stores. That shafts are already spine aligned by the manufacturer of the shaft then they put their decals on it. Supposedly these bigger stores charge anywhere from $15-$20 to spine it for you.

So since I have seen so many articles on spine aligning I thought it was funny.... yet I am sure there are as many people who think it makes a huge difference to their game as there are people who think it is simply another revenue generating tool for the big boxers.

[cardoustie]

Brian,

I have to disagree with you on certain points ... and I get where you're coming from ... but IMO your views are skewed by your own personal findings.

In random order.

SGI's vs blades. Sorry I am better with blades and I know others that are as well. Lots of testing on this. My index isn't much lower than yours but my game is the polar opposite, long and crooked generally. Can be 72 or 86.

Weight. Sorry, I am FAR better with heavier shafts in woods and irons, I side with STAGE. Fittings with top guys at PING and Titleist have borne this out quite clearly. Weight AND Custom fittings are very important

There are guys that are good ball strikers that have bad indexes. One of my buds is a 10 or 11 cap. Great swing, solid ball striker. Major MAJOR chip yips. We're talking all remedies, like eyes closed, hypnosis, one handed, cross handed etc .. all in futility. This animals exist, they aren't unicorns

Do you mind me asking what is the slope / rating / yardage of the course you play the most?

[HiSpeed48]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392041327' post='8635729']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']


Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]

You'd be wrong about that. I'm a mid single digit handicap ... anyone who pays attention can play at that level.

As for my clubs? [b]I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with. [/b]

If you prefer to use blades and shoot 85 or so, that's surely your choice and it won't change my life a whit.

& now I'm done with responding to you and I'm going to use the "ignore" feature in my preferences. Thanks for your input.
[/quote]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392118371' post='8642835']
[quote name='Bronco01' timestamp='1392112476' post='8642749']


I do agree with you that blades aren't for most higher handicappers, but clearly we're going to disagree on the degree of benefit offered by GI irons. I agree with much of the rest of what you have posted (although still think fitting is important for anyone with a swing that is reasonable consistent), but maybe you could cool it a little on the "blade" hate. As I said, GI irons aren't for me, but I have absolutely no issue with anyone else who wants to use them. None of my business & frankly I just don't have an opinion on what equipment other people use.

[/quote]

[b]I don't hate blades, I played them for many years. Up until 2 years ago, I played Tommy Armour Forged SIlverBacks combo set, with the 7-PW being muscle backs.

There is no question that blades are more versatile, in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. My "quarrel" with blades isn't with the clubs, it's with the double digit handicappers who essentially claim their talent and prowess with an iron, is too much for CB/GI clubs ... they need blades to truly take advantage of their talent. Baloney! 9 out of 10 guys who can't break 80 (or 90) who are using blades, are using them to satisfy their ego or to present themselves as better players than they really are.[/b]

How many times have you seen a grossly overweight person and been told, "oh, he/she has a gland problem" ? 9 out of 10 of those people have an eating problem. My friend Sean2 will be sporting blades this year with his 9 handicap. He's the 1 out of 10 who has the gland problem.

Of the Top Ten in Fedex Points so far this year, there are (4) guys using flat out blades: Dustin Johnson, Jimmy Walker, Webb Simpson & Kevin Stadler.

There are (2) players using PING irons: Harris English and Ryan Moore.

Zach Johnson is playing AP2's ... modified cavity backs.

Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[i][size=4][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/size][/i]
[/quote]

You're replies are so contradictory to one another. This whole thread is basically you venting about high-handicappers playing blades (you even mentioned in the original post that you came up with the idea for this thread after reading a "blades vs CB" thread). And now you are back tracking and trying to say you don't care what clubs other people use? Wow

It's quite obvious that you have a big superiority complex. You can play blades since you're a single-digit and it doesn't hurt your scores, but a mid-capper has no business playing blades.

The fact that you even care what other golfers use and it affects you enough to have a "quarrel" with it is very telling.

Guess you can add me to your ignore list too

[2putttom]

I've got a gut instinct Tom Wishon is curiously watching this thread from the side lines.

[duffer987]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392118371' post='8642835']

Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[b][i][size=4][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/size][/i][/b]
[/quote]

Just to be accurate here, Luke Williams made those comments about the RAZR X Musclebacks[b] NOT[/b] the Callaway X Forged. Those two are very different clubs.

[Jarri]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1392120386' post='8642905']
6. Just silly stuff here. Proper fitting clubs is important.

[color=#000080][b]Really? Important to whom? Says who? Please show me some data that proves "fitting" has significantly improved the average player's scores. Average handicaps haven't changed in 30 years, in spite of the improvement in balls, clubs, course conditions and everything else that goes with golf ... including "fitting" become the ubiquitous "cure all". Club fitting is a myth for the average golfer of average proportions. There are at least 2 threads running right now, from guys who say it hurt their game.[/b][/color]

[/quote]

Isn't above contradicting to your blades vs. SGI comment? If avg. hcp not changing over last 30 years is evidence of 'fitting-not-changing-much', same reasoning should lead to 'SGI-not-helping-much' also.

I always say play the clubs that help your miss.... I hit the ball very very high, am prone to hooking in the long-irons and miss towards heel... tell me how SGIs (low COG, more offset and sweetspot towards the toe) going to help me?

For my miss, blades are more forgiving (high COG, less offset and sweetspot towards heel).

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392138695' post='8644573']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392118371' post='8642835']
Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[b][i][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/i][/b]
[/quote]

Just to be accurate here, Luke Williams made those comments about the RAZR X Musclebacks[b] NOT[/b] the Callaway X Forged. Those two are very different clubs.
[/quote]

Per the Callaway site, Chris Kirk plays the RAZR X Musclebacks as does Brian Stuard and Patrick Reed.

[duffer987]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392140730' post='8644783']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1392138695' post='8644573']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392118371' post='8642835']
Kirk, Reed & Stuard are using Callaway X Forged. Here's what Callways says about those irons:

[b][i][color=#000000]"If you aren't good enough to get your clubs for free, this might not be the best club for you," says Luke Williams, [/color][color=#000000][url="http://www.golf.com/equipment/brand/callaway?sct=hotlinks"]Callaway[/url][/color][color=#000000]'s director of product design. "I mean, really good amateur players and college players could play this club. There's a market for it, but it's small."[/color][/i][/b]
[/quote]

Just to be accurate here, Luke Williams made those comments about the RAZR X Musclebacks[b] NOT[/b] the Callaway X Forged. Those two are very different clubs.
[/quote]

Per the Callaway site, Chris Kirk plays the RAZR X Musclebacks as does Brian Stuard and Patrick Reed.
[/quote]

Yup, thanks for adding that bit and they are most definitely 'blades' if what DJ and Walker are playing are being considered 'blades'.
I just wanted to call out the mistake (and hopefully not a willful misrepresentation) of the post saying they are playing the X Forged. So really 7/10 of the Top 10 FedEx are playing 'flat out blades'.

I'm all for IMHO's, but getting something factually incorrect and passing it off as being correct simply isn't on.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1392136364' post='8644365']
Brian,

I have to disagree with you on certain points ... and I get where you're coming from ... but IMO your views are skewed by your own personal findings.

In random order.

SGI's vs blades. Sorry I am better with blades and I know others that are as well. Lots of testing on this. My index isn't much lower than yours but my game is the polar opposite, long and crooked generally. Can be 72 or 86.

Weight. Sorry, I am FAR better with heavier shafts in woods and irons, I side with STAGE. Fittings with top guys at PING and Titleist have borne this out quite clearly. Weight AND Custom fittings are very important

[color=#0000cd]I agree with you shaft weight, for someone who has tempo issues or who has a fairly well grooved swing. The average golfer in the USA shoots 97 ... I don't think spending a $200 for a fitting so he can get his clubs 1/2" over length, with a 1* change in lie, is going to change his life or his scores. I don't think those sorts of "fittings" will change most anyone's score.[/color]

There are guys that are good ball strikers that have bad indexes. One of my buds is a 10 or 11 cap. Great swing, solid ball striker. Major MAJOR chip yips. We're talking all remedies, like eyes closed, hypnosis, one handed, cross handed etc .. all in futility. This animals exist, they aren't unicorns

[color=#0000cd]I agree there are exceptions. I've played with guy who could barely hit a fairway with a Pitching Wedge, but he almost a Tour level short game. What the hell, Brad Faxon played on Ryder Cup Teams and won millions ... I know 3 Handicappers who could hit it as good as he did.[/color]

Do you mind me asking what is the slope / rating / yardage of the course you play the most?

[color=#0000cd]My home course is 71.8/138 & usually play that from about 6500 yards. My "winter course" is 70.1 & I think, 126? That course is deceptive, because the front is only 3070 & the back is all into the wind and plays at 3400. There are 3 Par 4's on the back, that I typically can't reach. Although, the back does have potential Birdie holes, where as the front doesn't really have any of those.[/color]

[/quote]