Myth Busters or your very own WRX Snopes

[BrianL99]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1391971463' post='8630001']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391970470' post='8629891']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1391968373' post='8629657']
Brian, i agree with a lot of what you post for the most part.....you are sometimes just a bit more ummmm, assertive then me in saying so LOL

[/quote]

Gee, I've never heard that before, but thanks ;-)
[/quote]

I meant it as a compliment, you are just more direct then me in these threads haha....i'm too nice....stupid Sean rubbing off on me!
[/quote]

I knew what you meant! Sean can be a problem like that. He's well on his way to becoming the Steve Stricker of WRX.

[bladestriker]

#1 you could scratch everything off but sound, as sound is what we interpret as feel. try hitting with earplugs to see if you can "feel" the difference
#2 if you can't put the club on the ball it doesn't matter what you use, nothing will help except practice
#3 agree, most atheletes will adjust to make it work
#4 old man yelling at clouds. tell the anouncers that when they say"he would win more if he could putt"
#5 you could argue either way. I've seen 2 worm burners or slices 30 yards from green and takes 5 or 6 more to get it down

[Sean2]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391971908' post='8630047']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1391971463' post='8630001']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391970470' post='8629891']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1391968373' post='8629657']
Brian, i agree with a lot of what you post for the most part.....you are sometimes just a bit more ummmm, assertive then me in saying so LOL

[/quote]

Gee, I've never heard that before, but thanks ;-)
[/quote]

I meant it as a compliment, you are just more direct then me in these threads haha....i'm too nice....stupid Sean rubbing off on me!
[/quote]

I knew what you meant! Sean can be a problem like that. He's well on his way to becoming the Steve Stricker of WRX.
[/quote]

Ha! I wish I had his swing Brian. :-)

[dlygrisse]

I generally agree with your thoughts but there are no absolutes to any of your statements.

The one about the short game is interesting, I agree you will never become a really good player without being a good ball striker, but you can bunt it around and scramble and shoot in the 70's, 60's no, but you can post scores the average golfer would envy.

Fitting, if you get an extremely bad fit off the rack, say you need 3* flat L flex and you end up with 2* up extra still as an extreme you will struggle with the equipment. But yes in general if you give the average beginner a standard set of irons with with R flex or even stiff, a 10.5 degree driver a couple of FW's or hybrids, they won't know the difference between the theoretical "average set" and a perfectly custom fit set.

As for the blade vs. SGI debate....I agree except I really think anyone could play a blended set no problem, say 8 iron through SW blades the rest cavities...not that it would really help someones game to do so. But yes any below average ball striker trying to hit a blade 2,3,4,5 iron is going to struggle big time.

I have encountered the odd "good ball striker" who 3-jacks numerous times, skulls the easiest of pitches and chips and is hopeless out of bunkers. A good buddy of mine is an example...however I think his really problem is not talent or know how...he has the short game yips in general, he used to be a 4 cap, has a hard time breaking 90 these days.


I now know for sure I have too much time on my hands.

[crazygolfnut]

The fitting thing is interesting. I am 5’6”, which is rather short compared to the rest of the world. (Won’t talk about weight) I have a flat swing and do not hit the ball very far. Over the years I have had a few fittings that include @ the Ping factory 3 times, Ping local fitting 2 times, Titleist 1 time and Callaway 1 time. All fittings were from company /factory fitters. No local golf store sales people were included. The results have been the same with no special loft, lie, or fancy shaft recommended. They have all recommend off the shelf standard products. The only thing that might help would be a smaller size grip but since I tend to hook the ball, they change their mind and suggest keeping the regular grip.

I am on the low end of the totem pole and would think standard golf equipment would be manufactured for people a littler taller than me like the 5’8 to 6’ range. FYI last year I ended up with a 12 hcp only because of a few back problems. This year I should be back down to ~10. Fitting? Not convinced fittings are really required but I may be a little short sided. I do try out clubs before I purchase by hitting them on the course.

[boxerjoe2011]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391953881' post='8628521']
[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1391953194' post='8628473']
[quote name='BrianL99']
If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes.
[/quote]
I was 47% fairways, and 40% GIR last year. Ugh, I've got a long way to go. Good news is maybe my short game isn't as crappy as I thought.
[/quote]

I've been 70% fairways over the last 5 years & still only manage 33% GIR. Goes to prove that hitting fairways isn't always that important.
[/quote]

Jeez, I don't think I have ever met anyone that is so accurate off the tee, but so much less so with an iron in their hands. I would venture to say I am probably 60-50 in that category. On your OP, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you said. In my travels, I have noticed good golfers come in all shapes and sizes. I love playing with good players that play a different type of golf than me. I find it fascinating how they score and what their strengths are. To me, the best way to get better is to play with people that are little bit better than you.

[braincramp52]

Must be a slow day here Brian. I really thought you would have been completely "toast" by now. I agree to most of the topics. The only one that is questionable (for me)is the blade one.I am not a great ball striker by any means but although I choose to play "shovels" most of the time I've played blades off and on over the years and my scores rarely change.It's kind of odd really.

[toc]

I'm a bit annoyed. I thought when I got back from playing 18 that this thread would be 4+ pages. I'm going to start a thread to complain about arbitrary interest in potentially incendiary threads!

[butch33611]

[quote name='CommerceTiger' timestamp='1391962438' post='8629115']
Is no one going to address the ex con? Haha

But nice post, I agree with a lot of it!
[/quote]

You jump to conclusions my friend. Im a Corrections Officer. I work the over night shift. I check in here every morning around 06;30 when I get home.

[HighSpeedScene]

In other news, water is wet.

[chickenpotpie]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391946205' post='8628181']
Admittedly, I have too much time on my hands this morning, but after reading a couple of posts in one of the ubiquitous "blades vs CB/GI" threads, I can't resist.

The Big Lies on WRX (& other boards).


[b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b]

Back in the early 90's, the Ben Hogan golf company made the Edge GCD club in a forged model and a cast model. They were virtually identical (the cast model had about 1* more offset in the longer clubs). There were numerous tests done and I personally conducted a random, non-scientific test, as I owned both models. No one could consistently pick out the forged vs cast club.

[color=#0000cd][b]There is nothing inherent in the construction process of forged vs cast, that makes forged clubs feel any softer than cast clubs. Anyone who's hit PING Ansers and PING I20's side by side can confirm that forged doesn't equal 'softer feel". [/b][/color][color=#0000cd][b] It is all about head design, center of gravity, weight distribution, MOI, sound and a raft of other factors unrelated to the manufacturing process.[/b][/color]



[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

Of course they are, but only if you're more concerned about your ego and how you're perceived by other players. (Or don't care about your scores, you just love the feel.)

[color=#0000cd][b]In general, CB/GI/SGI clubs are much more forgiving than traditional blades. How anyone can argue this truism, is beyond my comprehension.[/b][/color]



[b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b]

Maybe in a driver or perhaps even in fairway woods, but when it comes to irons, shaft stiffness just isn't very important.

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...o-help-you-all/[/url][/b][/color]



[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

The above has always been one of my favorites on WRX and other golf boards. This mystical person doesn't exist. It's illogical and a product of one's ego, attempting to alter reality.

[color=#0000CD][b]If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes. [/b][/color]



[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

That old wive's tale has been perpetuated for years and I'll give Dave Pelz credit for being the evangelist in the forefront. It's nonsense and most any statistician can quote a zillion numbers to show it's not as important as we're lead to believe. WRX's own Richie Hunt has posted numerous times on the subject. That's not to say that "great putting" doesn't make a difference, but within the "normal range" for putting, it's not so important. For now, here are a few references:

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/molinaris-revolution-long-game-trumps-short-game/"]http://www.golfchann...mps-short-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.strikergolfgps.com/golf-statistics-improve-your-golf-game/"]http://www.strikergo...your-golf-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/10/23/stat-dude-long-game-is-more-important-than-short-game.html"]http://www.geoffshac...short-game.html[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfmanna.com/Pages/Article.aspx?Id=54"]http://www.golfmanna...icle.aspx?Id=54[/url][/b][/color]



[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

Hmmmm .... maybe I should stick with the BIG 5 Myths and leave 6-10 for another day.
[/quote]

I only object to #5 and #6. If you can scramble, you can cover up a lot of flaws. I know I improved a fair bit in the last 2 years just by focusing on not double chipping and not double or triple hitting sand shots. There are numerous shots left out there around the green by amateurs (WRX is an exception). You can say the same thing about 3-putts. A 3-putt or a double chip is analogous to a penalty stroke in my opinion.

As to #6, a good player can generally play with any clubs, but you can't tell me that I'll play well with ladies clubs that are 2" short and weak in flex.

IMO, your generalizations reached a little too far.

[duffer987]

[quote name='HighSpeedScene' timestamp='1391983218' post='8631237']
In other news, water is wet.
[/quote]

Sure, but do I need a Brita filter, bottled Evian, or water straight from the tap?

Some will say there is no difference, but I swear I can tell the difference between hard and soft water

[BrianL99]

[quote name='boxerjoe2011' timestamp='1391976648' post='8630545']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391953881' post='8628521']
[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1391953194' post='8628473']
[quote name='BrianL99']
If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes.
[/quote]
I was 47% fairways, and 40% GIR last year. Ugh, I've got a long way to go. Good news is maybe my short game isn't as crappy as I thought.
[/quote]

I've been 70% fairways over the last 5 years & still only manage 33% GIR. Goes to prove that hitting fairways isn't always that important.
[/quote]

Jeez, I don't think I have ever met anyone that is so accurate off the tee, but so much less so with an iron in their hands. I would venture to say I am probably 60-50 in that category. On your OP, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you said. In my travels, I have noticed good golfers come in all shapes and sizes. I love playing with good players that play a different type of golf than me. I find it fascinating how they score and what their strengths are. To me, the best way to get better is to play with people that are little bit better than you.
[/quote]

I have distance issues ... I can't it far enough to play from 6600 yards. A few more years & I'll move up to the Sr. Tees, I'll be good !

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391987269' post='8631763']
[quote name='boxerjoe2011' timestamp='1391976648' post='8630545']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391953881' post='8628521']
[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1391953194' post='8628473']
[quote name='BrianL99']
If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes.
[/quote]
I was 47% fairways, and 40% GIR last year. Ugh, I've got a long way to go. Good news is maybe my short game isn't as crappy as I thought.
[/quote]

I've been 70% fairways over the last 5 years & still only manage 33% GIR. Goes to prove that hitting fairways isn't always that important.
[/quote]

Jeez, I don't think I have ever met anyone that is so accurate off the tee, but so much less so with an iron in their hands. I would venture to say I am probably 60-50 in that category. On your OP, I tend to agree with pretty much everything you said. In my travels, I have noticed good golfers come in all shapes and sizes. I love playing with good players that play a different type of golf than me. I find it fascinating how they score and what their strengths are. To me, the best way to get better is to play with people that are little bit better than you.
[/quote]

I have distance issues ... I can't it far enough to play from 6600 yards. A few more years & I'll move up to the Sr. Tees, I'll be good !
[/quote]What is your handicap with those stats? Just curious.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1391987468' post='8631789']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391987269' post='8631763']
I have distance issues ... I can't it far enough to play from 6600 yards. A few more years & I'll move up to the Sr. Tees, I'll be good !
[/quote]What is your handicap with those stats? Just curious.
[/quote]

GolfShot has me at 5.7, my GHIN is 5.8

[SatelliteGuy]

So Brian...

My irons would perform the same with a ladies flex as they would with an XStiff?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1391989601' post='8632015']
So Brian...

My irons would perform the same with a ladies flex as they would with an XStiff?
[/quote]

I know I'm going to regret this, but ...

No, I don't think they would. That said, I think it's less of an issue as clubs get shorter. Most golfers seem to be able to play reasonable well with a shaft that's "approximately" within his typical range of stiffness. In other words, most guys could play reasonably consistently with an R300 or S300 and not notice any appreciable difference in score. Ball flight might change, distance might change, but I think most guys would get used to it fairly quickly.

Tom Wishon (from what I've read) claims the later your release, the more you're sensitive to shaft stiffness. I hardly release it at all and I can play pretty close to my handicap with Whippy Tempomaster shafts.

The consensus among the people I consider credible, is that weight, balance point & shaft profile, do much more to influence a shot, than an "R" or "S" on the shaft label.

Also keep in mind, there's a huge gulf between a Tour player or even a low single digit guy and the "average golfer" who shoots in the 90's. In my opinion, most 15 handicappers don't have a consistent enough swing to benefit from flex nuances.

[Forged4ever]

Excellent post Brian-

Along the line of your Hogan test, prior to the release of the 63's & 68's, Mizzy, in their testing for their Harmonic Impact Technolgy(HIT), had the Staffers, both male & female, hit identical blank, unmarked(except for club #) 63's & 68's, exact same dimensions, specs, etc., with the only difference being one was cast, the other forged.

Not a single Staffer could consistently and accurately pick the cast iron or forged iron.

Another fact that I believe that most WRXers would agree on is that "feel" is critically important to a Tour Player in the selection of his wedges.

Well, 80% of wedges played on tour are cast.

I remember back in the late 80's- early 90's whenever someone would ask me about "feel," and as I've often said, I've never experienced "butter(which is cast, BTW)," though I always equated feel with the sound of my iron at impact. Even our Pro use to look at me like I was crazy, lol.

So, no one was happier than I when others started equating feel with the auditory response.

I have a lot of baggage, however I felt damn good about that one;)

And I love #4!!

Trust me, this is not just a WRX myth, and it drives me crazy, lol

Well, have a good week-


Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[hef63303]

I will take exception to #5. Your premise is probably true for the single digit handicappers, that hit a regular number of greens in regulation. However, for those whose handicaps are a little higher, the difference between shooting 82 and 88 is how many times they get the ball up and down in a round.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1391995627' post='8632871']
I will take exception to #5. Your premise is probably true for the single digit handicappers, that hit a regular number of greens in regulation. However, for those whose handicaps are a little higher, the difference between shooting 82 and 88 is how many times they get the ball up and down in a round.
[/quote]

Golf Digest or GOLF published a study a few months back, when I get a chance I'll search for it. The writer concluded that if the average golfer putted like Phil Mickelson, his scores wouldn't change dramatically. I think the average golfer over estimates how well Tour players putt. We all know that the guys at the top of the heap are great putters, but after you drop down the list a little bit, a lot of the players win only when they get particularly hot with their putters.

[stage1350]

#4: You can hit 100% of greens in regulation. If you 3 jack every hole, you are still shooting 90.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391990786' post='8632127']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1391989601' post='8632015']
So Brian...

My irons would perform the same with a ladies flex as they would with an XStiff?
[/quote]

I know I'm going to regret this, but ...

No, I don't think they would. That said, I think it's less of an issue as clubs get shorter. Most golfers seem to be able to play reasonable well with a shaft that's "approximately" within his typical range of stiffness. In other words, most guys could play reasonably consistently with an R300 or S300 and not notice any appreciable difference in score. Ball flight might change, distance might change, but I think most guys would get used to it fairly quickly.

Tom Wishon (from what I've read) claims the later your release, the more you're sensitive to shaft stiffness. I hardly release it at all and I can play pretty close to my handicap with Whippy Tempomaster shafts.

The consensus among the people I consider credible, is that weight, balance point & shaft profile, do much more to influence a shot, than an "R" or "S" on the shaft label.

Also keep in mind, there's a huge gulf between a Tour player or even a low single digit guy and the "average golfer" who shoots in the 90's. In my opinion, most 15 handicappers don't have a consistent enough swing to benefit from flex nuances.
[/quote]

There was a great point in there that completely enlightened me as to why I thought your statement about shaft stiffness was completely bogus...

The later the release the more sensitive to stiffness...

A friend, a great golfer, said I have the latest release he's ever seen....

That would tell me there is no way I could play a softer flex than I do and still be successful...

Reasonable?

[hef63303]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391996105' post='8632951']
[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1391995627' post='8632871']
I will take exception to #5. Your premise is probably true for the single digit handicappers, that hit a regular number of greens in regulation. However, for those whose handicaps are a little higher, the difference between shooting 82 and 88 is how many times they get the ball up and down in a round.
[/quote]

Golf Digest or GOLF published a study a few months back, when I get a chance I'll search for it. The writer concluded that if the average golfer putted like Phil Mickelson, his scores wouldn't change dramatically. I think the average golfer over estimates how well Tour players putt. We all know that the guys at the top of the heap are great putters, but after you drop down the list a little bit, a lot of the players win only when they get particularly hot with their putters.
[/quote]
I am talking about putting and chipping combined. I know it is hard to measure and you can not use a tour players game to estimate what it means to an 11-18 handicapper.

[resnor]

I routinely get on greens in three shots, and then two or three putt. Don't tell me that #4 is a myth, cause it isn't for me. About 10 years ago, I was at my best, playing 3-5 times a week, and shooting low 90's on average. My best score that season was an 83. I then got married, and wasn't able to play for about 8 years, but still would go to the driving range. Last summer I started playing again, and struggled to get upper 90's. Difference? I couldn't putt for crap. Two or three putting gets you bogey or double bogey. I'm talking two putting a ten foot putt. Last year I was adding an extra 18-25 strokes per round just in the extra strokes from two and three putts. I would have been low 90's, or even high 80's, several times last season if I had just had turned my three putts into two putts.

[ABgolfer2]

I don't track my stats. Hitting the ball to a good place to take the next stroke might result in an easy par after a missed fairway and a missed green. A FIR and a GIR is worthless if you leave yourself in 3-putt range all day. Better than an OB drive or shanked approach, but still..,

[Chief Illiniwek]

A "good" ball striker is at 60-70% GIR? Brian, that's PGA tour quality ball striking. I'd go as far as to call 70% "elite" ball striking.

On the other hand you claim to hit 70% of fairways but only 33% of greens, but can't handle courses over 6600 yards? And yet a nice single digit handicap. I think this sheds a lot of light on your ardent stance on blades vs cavities. You obviously have a nice short game to score so well without hitting very many greens. But, especially for your handicap, you have a pretty low clubhead speed and can't properly flight blade irons.

So it makes sense to me that from your perspective, you couldn't understand how anyone worse than you could possibly handle playing blades successfully, as you have probably had very little success with them. The difference is clubhead speed. Not everyone is built the same way.

[DavePelz4]

Excellent points Chief. The #1 player in terms of GIR last year was Henrik Stenson at just under 72% and #125 was Patrick Reed at just under 64%. Maybe the tour would benefit from playing GI clubs vs. blades.

Actually, I don't really care what they or anyone play. Everyone should play what feels right to them.

[Sean2]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1392007515' post='8634347']
Excellent points Chief. The #1 player in terms of GIR last year was Henrik Stenson at just under 72% and #125 was Patrick Reed at just under 64%. Maybe the tour would benefit from playing GI clubs vs. blades.

Actually, I don't really care what they or anyone play. Everyone should play what feels right to them.
[/quote]

I wonder if Badminton forums have these kinds of "discussions"? I mean should you play the Jung Jae Sung Meteor? Or, would you be considered a poseur if you did? Or, should you just stick with the Carlton Vapour Trail Storm G4 HL?

[DavePelz4]

Excellent points Chief. The #1 player in terms of GIR last year was Henrik Stenson at just under 72% and #125 was Patrick Reed at just under 64%. Maybe the tour would benefit from playing GI clubs vs. blades.

 

Actually, I don't really care what they or anyone play. Everyone should play what feels right to them.

 

I wonder if Badminton forums have these kinds of "discussions"? I mean should you play the Jung Jae Sung Meteor? Or, would you be considered a poseur if you did? Or, should you just stick with the Carlton Vapour Trail Storm G4 HL?

 

Baxter you know I don't speak Spanish.

 

[ABgolfer2]

I'm not sure why anyone cares if someone wants to improve their putting, get "fitted", play blades or whatever. If somebody wants to give me a set of S55s or Mp64s and pay for my annual membership and league fees I'll play either one no problem. Otherwise? You know what to do.