Myth Busters or your very own WRX Snopes

[jewofgolf]

Regarding #5, the short game is the single most important part of golf. How many rounds have I scrapped around and hit 8 greens for 71-75? A bunch, as have all good golfers. How many rounds have I hit 12-14 greens and shot 71-75? A bunch...

The better you become, the more you depend on getting up and down. When you can reasonably expect 2-3 birdies and you miss the first 4 GIR, if you didn't at least save 2 of those pars your round is basically toast now. When you are coming down the stretch of a great round and miss 2-3 greens in a few holes, if you didn't save all or most of those pars, again your momentum is basically gone. The short game IS scoring. How many scratch golfers stuff more than 1 shot every 3-4 rounds into less than 2 feet (on a par 3 or 4)? Not many...those 10-15 foot birdie putts have to be made.

Nothing AT ALL happens if you can't save pars and make birdie putts. It's (almost) ALL about short game. ANYBODY can hit it around and manage the course, but the short game let's you get it done.

Case in point: I have played alongside 2 qualifiers for the USGA Mid-Am. Both of them had a different type of game (one was shorter but consistent and made a bunch of 10-15 foot putts, the other was a long hitter and beat up on the par 5's), but both got into real trouble on a couple of holes. Both times, they managed to escape with par or bogey and kept on playing solid golf. I don't care what anyone says about mental game...when you make a double or triple (knowing you need to be under par to get in) you have too much ground to make up.

The short game is easily the single most important factor for playing good golf.

[Chief Illiniwek]

I actually want to delve into this a bit further. What's a typical rating from say 6400 yards? Lets say 71. With a cap of 6 let's guess your 10 best scores average 77. So a truly average score (counting all 20 scores entered) from 6400 yards would be about 79 I'm guessing, or 7 over par.

Now lets assume on this average day of shooting 79 with 6/18 GIRS. On the 6 GIRS lets assume you are an excellent putter and do about 1.8 putts per GIR. 11 putts so on those 6 holes you are -1. To get to 7 over for the whole round that means on the other 12 holes, all greens missed in regulation, you're only 8 over.

Even if we assume your AVERAGE round never had anything worse than a bogey, you're up and down % would be 33%, but that's an unlikely situation. There probably is indeed a double bogey in the average round.

So now I'm thinking 6 GIRS at -1, one bad hole at +2, and eleven more non gir holes played at +6. A scrambling percentage of 42%.

Now this 42% assumes no three putts, out of bound strokes, water strokes, etc etc. Once again all of that is pretty unlikely so bottom line you probably get up and down over 50% of the time. That's PGA tour quality short game.

So long story short, a driver that goes 250 (which is enough to score on courses under 6600 yards), and a scrambling percentage that probably rivals some PGA tour players, but only a 6 handicap?

You are "say it like it is guy" so I'll give you a little taste of your own medicine. Your iron game is extremely weak for your handicap and its little shock that you're no fan of trying to utilize blade irons.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392007045' post='8634303']
A "good" ball striker is at 60-70% GIR? Brian, that's PGA tour quality ball striking. I'd go as far as to call 70% "elite" ball striking.

On the other hand you claim to hit 70% of fairways but only 33% of greens, but can't handle courses over 6600 yards? And yet a nice single digit handicap. I think this sheds a lot of light on your ardent stance on blades vs cavities. You obviously have a nice short game to score so well without hitting very many greens. But, especially for your handicap, you have a pretty low clubhead speed and can't properly flight blade irons.

So it makes sense to me that from your perspective, you couldn't understand how anyone worse than you could possibly handle playing blades successfully, as you have probably had very little success with them. The difference is clubhead speed. Not everyone is built the same way.
[/quote]

I actually don't have a very good short game in my opinion or in the opinion of most of the guys I play with. I attribute my my handicap to better course management than most people (at least for my game). If it makes you feel any better, I was a much better "ball striker" in my younger days, when I played to a 4, with Wilson Staff FG 17 blades. I could routinely hit 14-15 greens, I just couldn't putt worth a damn

Hitting blades isn't about swing speed, it's about quality contact. I played a 1 Iron for 25 years, up until 4 years ago. I never had a fast swing speed, but knew how to hit the center of the club face.

My "GIR's" & "Fairways hit" aren't "claims", they're measured over 478 rounds with Golf Shot. It is what it is. I think people may be surprised by my handicap based on those statistics, but I think that's because people don't really measure their game accurately. I miss a lot of greens in the fringe (lack of swing speed to generate enough spin), but I'm close to the pin. Because I can hit the ball straight, I can go pin hunting in situations that others can't. In an average round, I probably have 5-6 putts from off the green. Those holes aren't a "GIR", but they're a good miss

As for 70% GIR being "elite ball striking", I guess I don't see it that way on the average golf course. I know there are days that I hit 60% and I'm no where near an elite ball striker. The golf courses the PGA Tour guys are playing, aren't like the average muni and those guys are almost always pin hunting.

As for "flighting blades", I just don't buy that. Most anyone who attends their first PGA Tour event will come away with (2) observations. "Wow, it sounds so much different when those guys hit the ball" and "Wow, I can't believe how high those guys hit the ball". I think the whole flighting thing is a lot like the "working the ball" stuff ... unless you're shooting under par every day, it's well beyond the player's capabilities.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392029750' post='8635081']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392007045' post='8634303']
A "good" ball striker is at 60-70% GIR? Brian, that's PGA tour quality ball striking. I'd go as far as to call 70% "elite" ball striking.

On the other hand you claim to hit 70% of fairways but only 33% of greens, but can't handle courses over 6600 yards? And yet a nice single digit handicap. I think this sheds a lot of light on your ardent stance on blades vs cavities. You obviously have a nice short game to score so well without hitting very many greens. But, especially for your handicap, you have a pretty low clubhead speed and can't properly flight blade irons.

So it makes sense to me that from your perspective, you couldn't understand how anyone worse than you could possibly handle playing blades successfully, as you have probably had very little success with them. The difference is clubhead speed. Not everyone is built the same way.
[/quote]

I actually don't have a very good short game in my opinion or in the opinion of most of the guys I play with. I attribute my my handicap to better course management than most people (at least for my game). If it makes you feel any better, I was a much better "ball striker" in my younger days, when I played to a 4, with Wilson Staff FG 17 blades. I could routinely hit 14-15 greens, I just couldn't putt worth a damn

Hitting blades isn't about swing speed, it's about quality contact. I played a 1 Iron for 25 years, up until 4 years ago. I never had a fast swing speed, but knew how to hit the center of the club face.

My "GIR's" & "Fairways hit" aren't "claims", they're measured over 478 rounds with Golf Shot. It is what it is. I think people may be surprised by my handicap based on those statistics, but I think that's because people don't really measure their game accurately. I miss a lot of greens in the fringe (lack of swing speed to generate enough spin), but I'm close to the pin. Because I can hit the ball straight, I can go pin hunting in situations that others can't. In an average round, I probably have 5-6 putts from off the green. Those holes aren't a "GIR", but they're a good miss

As for 70% GIR being "elite ball striking", I guess I don't see it that way on the average golf course. I know there are days that I hit 60% and I'm no where near an elite ball striker. The golf courses the PGA Tour guys are playing, aren't like the average muni and those guys are almost always pin hunting.

As for "flighting blades", I just don't buy that. Most anyone who attends their first PGA Tour event will come away with (2) observations. "Wow, it sounds so much different when those guys hit the ball" and "Wow, I can't believe how high those guys hit the ball". I think the whole flighting thing is a lot like the "working the ball" stuff ... unless you're shooting under par every day, it's well beyond the player's capabilities.
[/quote]

Now who is ignoring facts? 70% is elite ball striking. Anyone who hits 70% of greens, even if their short game is suspect, would be a great ball striker. Twelve, maybe 13 GIRS on average/round, and as you mentioned probably a couple more on the fringe, heck, most guys could putt one handed and still shoot par a lot of times with those numbers. There are days you hit 60%? Ok, so on your best day you get lucky and hit 60%, and you don't see the difference to someone who averages 70%? That means their best days are closer to 90 or 100%. Hang out by the 18th and ask every group coming in if any of them hit 12 or more greens that day, or better yet 15 or 16. There won't be many.

And playing blades isn't about swing speed? For a guy who is posting facts and busting myths I think you're missing a few facts. Maybe the biggest difference between SGI's and blades is the extremely wide and heavy sole in most models of SGI irons, vs the comparably high center of gravity of a blade iron. Why the difference? The wide, heavy SGI sole allows a player with low swing speed the ability to elevate the ball.

You say people come away with two impressions after watching PGA tour players strike irons, sound and height. That's because of those players' SWING SPEED! It's what being able to hit blades starts with. If you don't have swing speed the low center of gravity of an SGI iron is exactly what you need to achieve height.

[Sean2]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1392009291' post='8634523']
Regarding #5, the short game is the single most important part of golf. How many rounds have I scrapped around and hit 8 greens for 71-75? A bunch, as have all good golfers. How many rounds have I hit 12-14 greens and shot 71-75? A bunch...

The better you become, the more you depend on getting up and down. When you can reasonably expect 2-3 birdies and you miss the first 4 GIR, if you didn't at least save 2 of those pars your round is basically toast now. When you are coming down the stretch of a great round and miss 2-3 greens in a few holes, if you didn't save all or most of those pars, again your momentum is basically gone. The short game IS scoring. How many scratch golfers stuff more than 1 shot every 3-4 rounds into less than 2 feet (on a par 3 or 4)? Not many...those 10-15 foot birdie putts have to be made.

Nothing AT ALL happens if you can't save pars and make birdie putts. It's (almost) ALL about short game. ANYBODY can hit it around and manage the course, but the short game let's you get it done.

Case in point: I have played alongside 2 qualifiers for the USGA Mid-Am. Both of them had a different type of game (one was shorter but consistent and made a bunch of 10-15 foot putts, the other was a long hitter and beat up on the par 5's), but both got into real trouble on a couple of holes. Both times, they managed to escape with par or bogey and kept on playing solid golf. I don't care what anyone says about mental game...when you make a double or triple (knowing you need to be under par to get in) you have too much ground to make up.

The short game is easily the single most important factor for playing good golf.
[/quote]

That may be true for the level of golf you are speaking of, but think about the mid or high-handicapper, who launches a number of drives OB. Sure, a good short game is important (I practice mine incessantly), but if you can't keep the ball in play off the tee?

I remember playing in our club championship a few years ago. We get to the fifth hole, and one gentleman in our group proceeded to hit three drives OB. Yes, a good short game is important, but...

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392031080' post='8635109']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392009686' post='8634541']
I actually want to delve into this a bit further. What's a typical rating from say 6400 yards? Lets say 71. With a cap of 6 let's guess your 10 best scores average 77. So a truly average score (counting all 20 scores entered) from 6400 yards would be about 79 I'm guessing, or 7 over par.

Now lets assume on this average day of shooting 79 with 6/18 GIRS. On the 6 GIRS lets assume you are an excellent putter and do about 1.8 putts per GIR. 11 putts so on those 6 holes you are -1. To get to 7 over for the whole round that means on the other 12 holes, all greens missed in regulation, you're only 8 over.

Even if we assume your AVERAGE round never had anything worse than a bogey, you're up and down % would be 33%, but that's an unlikely situation. There probably is indeed a double bogey in the average round.

So now I'm thinking 6 GIRS at -1, one bad hole at +2, and eleven more non gir holes played at +6. A scrambling percentage of 42%.

Now this 42% assumes no three putts, out of bound strokes, water strokes, etc etc. Once again all of that is pretty unlikely so bottom line you probably get up and down over 50% of the time. That's PGA tour quality short game.

So long story short, a driver that goes 250 (which is enough to score on courses under 6600 yards), and a scrambling percentage that probably rivals some PGA tour players, but only a 6 handicap?

You are "say it like it is guy" so I'll give you a little taste of your own medicine. Your iron game is extremely weak for your handicap and its little shock that you're no fan of trying to utilize blade irons.
[/quote]

You're making way too many assumptions. I seldom make double bogeys, so that's a non-starter. Secondly, my home course has a Rating of 72.8/139, which means my average score is closer to 81/82. My scrambling isn't all that strong ... in the 30% range.

& I never claimed to be a great ball striker or iron player. I don't claim to be anything I'm not. I'm a 5.8, who sometimes plays like a 15 and seldom plays like a 5. I hit a lot of fairways and try not to do many dumb things.

Here are my numbers, if you'd like to see them. If you really want to dissect my game for me, stop by [url="http://www.golfshot.com/members/0330042120/rounds"]http://www.golfshot....30042120/rounds[/url] and give me some advice! (& btw, the "distance" #'s are not averages, I only measure quality shots. My true driving carry average is in the 220-225 range.)

BTW, there's a message in my stats. The message is, anyone can be a single digit HC. You don't have to do anything well, you just can't play stupid.

In most cases, guys who have been playing for 20 years and are still carrying around mid-double digit handicaps, either don't really care about their score or need to get a grip on how to play the game.
[/quote]

The message in your stats is you played almost 200 times last year, and 90% of those rounds were at the same two or three courses. Most guys who carry mid digit handicaps could probably get just as low as you if they played the same schedule, regardless of whether or not they cared about their game.

Bottom line is you like to tell people what they should be doing, especially in regards to whether or not they can handle blades. Meanwhile, no matter how you look at the numbers, it's plainly obvious that your game cannot, as evidenced by your admitted low swing speed. But you feel that your decent handicap gives you the authority to give club advice to anyone with a worse handicap.

What is frustrating is even you realize your game is about straight driving, course management, and no stupid mistakes. Doesn't it stand to reason that the 7-12 handicaps who don't do these things near as well as you must have something you don't? For some it may be better putting, or bunker play, or short game. But for most it's going to be superior ball striking, especially iron play, as your driving, while not long is very straight and long enough for 6400-6600 yards.

Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[Desert Golf]

I agree with most everything Brian says in the original post. Maybe it's because my game is a slightly inferior version of his.

Short knocker, who hits a lot of fairways, but only 33% GIR and a halfway decent short game. The only one I take exception to is that flex doesn't matter. Give me a shaft that isn't regular flex and my game will go downhill fast.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392040052' post='8635611']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1392009291' post='8634523']
Regarding #5, the short game is the single most important part of golf. How many rounds have I scrapped around and hit 8 greens for 71-75? A bunch, as have all good golfers. How many rounds have I hit 12-14 greens and shot 71-75? A bunch...

The better you become, the more you depend on getting up and down. When you can reasonably expect 2-3 birdies and you miss the first 4 GIR, if you didn't at least save 2 of those pars your round is basically toast now. When you are coming down the stretch of a great round and miss 2-3 greens in a few holes, if you didn't save all or most of those pars, again your momentum is basically gone. The short game IS scoring. How many scratch golfers stuff more than 1 shot every 3-4 rounds into less than 2 feet (on a par 3 or 4)? Not many...those 10-15 foot birdie putts have to be made.

Nothing AT ALL happens if you can't save pars and make birdie putts. It's (almost) ALL about short game. ANYBODY can hit it around and manage the course, but the short game let's you get it done.

Case in point: I have played alongside 2 qualifiers for the USGA Mid-Am. Both of them had a different type of game (one was shorter but consistent and made a bunch of 10-15 foot putts, the other was a long hitter and beat up on the par 5's), but both got into real trouble on a couple of holes. Both times, they managed to escape with par or bogey and kept on playing solid golf. I don't care what anyone says about mental game...when you make a double or triple (knowing you need to be under par to get in) you have too much ground to make up.

The short game is easily the single most important factor for playing good golf.
[/quote]

That may be true for the level of golf you are speaking of, but think about the mid or high-handicapper, who launches a number of drives OB. Sure, a good short game is important (I practice mine incessantly), but if you can't keep the ball in play off the tee?

I remember playing in our club championship a few years ago. We get to the fifth hole, and one gentleman in our group proceeded to hit three drives OB. Yes, a good short game is important, but...
[/quote]

I don't think you guys are of differing opinion, just on different pages.
Wouldn't you both agree that regularly breaking 80 requires good ball striking, especially off the tee, while breaking 70 requires par saves and getting up and down.

When JoG described "real trouble" off the tee he said the guys still made some pars. In Sean and I's world, "real trouble" means teeing it up again and hitting 3! :-)

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']


Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]

You'd be wrong about that. I'm a mid single digit handicap ... anyone who pays attention can play at that level.

As for my clubs? I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with.

If you prefer to use blades and shoot 85 or so, that's surely your choice and it won't change my life a whit.

& now I'm done with responding to you and I'm going to use the "ignore" feature in my preferences. Thanks for your input.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Desert Golf' timestamp='1392040909' post='8635689']
I agree with most everything Brian says in the original post. Maybe it's because my game is a slightly inferior version of his.

Short knocker, who hits a lot of fairways, but only 33% GIR and a halfway decent short game. The only one I take exception to is that flex doesn't matter. Give me a shaft that isn't regular flex and my game will go downhill fast.
[/quote]

Believe me, I doubt your game is "inferior" ... I'm really more like an 8/9, who gets lucky once in a while!

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1392040052' post='8635611']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1392009291' post='8634523']
Regarding #5, the short game is the single most important part of golf. How many rounds have I scrapped around and hit 8 greens for 71-75? A bunch, as have all good golfers. How many rounds have I hit 12-14 greens and shot 71-75? A bunch...

The better you become, the more you depend on getting up and down. When you can reasonably expect 2-3 birdies and you miss the first 4 GIR, if you didn't at least save 2 of those pars your round is basically toast now. When you are coming down the stretch of a great round and miss 2-3 greens in a few holes, if you didn't save all or most of those pars, again your momentum is basically gone. The short game IS scoring. How many scratch golfers stuff more than 1 shot every 3-4 rounds into less than 2 feet (on a par 3 or 4)? Not many...those 10-15 foot birdie putts have to be made.

Nothing AT ALL happens if you can't save pars and make birdie putts. It's (almost) ALL about short game. ANYBODY can hit it around and manage the course, but the short game let's you get it done.

Case in point: I have played alongside 2 qualifiers for the USGA Mid-Am. Both of them had a different type of game (one was shorter but consistent and made a bunch of 10-15 foot putts, the other was a long hitter and beat up on the par 5's), but both got into real trouble on a couple of holes. Both times, they managed to escape with par or bogey and kept on playing solid golf. I don't care what anyone says about mental game...when you make a double or triple (knowing you need to be under par to get in) you have too much ground to make up.

The short game is easily the single most important factor for playing good golf.
[/quote]

That may be true for the level of golf you are speaking of, but think about the mid or high-handicapper, who launches a number of drives OB. Sure, a good short game is important (I practice mine incessantly), but if you can't keep the ball in play off the tee?

I remember playing in our club championship a few years ago. We get to the fifth hole, and one gentleman in our group proceeded to hit three drives OB. Yes, a good short game is important, but...
[/quote]

Sean, I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think as your game gets better, ie mid 70's shooter (or in that range), the short game becomes the most important fact.....because if you've reached that level you normally don't incur an abundance of penalty strokes off the tee. I think it's kind of an assumed point that if you have enough game to be under 80 you keep it in play off the tee the majority of the time.

On the other hand, the mid to high handicapper, his off the tee game is the most important because of the propensity for really bad tee shots that lead to really big numbers. It doesn't matter as much to them on the short game, because that up and down is for a seven instead of a five due to the tee shot costing strokes.

PS: I see Chief posted essentially the same thing while I was typing.

[DevilDog]

I sort of disagree with short game and putting. Even if you are a good player, you will still miss some greens in a round. If your short game sucks, being able to save par now becomes a bogey or worse. One of the guys I play with chips great but absolutely sucks out of a bunker. He has taken lessons even and something about a bunker blows his mind. I have seen him even par through 13 and get into the greenside bunker at 14 and walk off with a triple because he bladed it out or chunked it and left it in there a couple of times. For an amateur, 10-12 GIRs is very good so you have to be able to save your backside on those you miss. As of right now, on the PGA Tour, David Toms leads GIRs at 77.78%. Even good amateurs can't match that. Mickelson is at 71.91.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392040776' post='8635681']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392039107' post='8635517']

Now who is ignoring facts?

[/quote]

2 Questions for you, Chief.

When's the last time you legitimately broke 80?

How many times have you shot under 75 ?


[quote name='Chief Illiniwek']


Be careful using blades to fine tune your ball striking! I bought a set of MP-33's to play around with and now I don't hit my offset cavities well at all. [b]I'm hoping to find a cavity in the future I can get some forgiveness back with.[/b]

[b]For example, my specialty is hitting a very low hook with a four iron when I'm stuck behind trees on the left side of the fairway.[/b] [/quote]

My speciality is getting it in the hole in the fewest # of strokes, given my lack of talent, lack of swing speed, and my inability to hit decent iron shots. I shot 69 last week, what did you shoot in your last round?
[/quote]

I legitimately break 80 probably half the time playing by the RoG from mid 6000 yards, and also broke 80 in tournaments this year that play from 7000+. I also didn't play 200 times this year.
If I could take just one round out of my average in my golf league, I would've been the top average this year. Unfortunately I absolutely blew up that round and ended third out of about 50 guys, most of whom admitingly are your average hacker.

While youre randomly picking quotes, why don't you find the ones that mention my frustration at my terrible chipping and pitching (something that used to be one of my stronger suits) because my ball striking was at an all time high and I should've been shooting par often, but a lack of any up and downs left me with rounds in the mid 70's.

I don't know how many times I've shot under 75. I stopped keeping the scorecards. It's happened enough. But I'm not the one touting my game either.

So you quote me saying I wouldn't mind finding a cavity I like with more forgiveness? Did you "get" me with that one? Wouldn't any of us like a club we hit as well as our current irons, only with more forgiveness? I haven't found an iron I hit as well as MP-33's, and that quote right there proves I'd be willing to play a cavity if I found one that I hit as well.

I'm not sure the context of the 4i quote, as lots of my posts are meant for a laugh. If the other posters were discussing their more obscure shots, than frankly yes. Despite a pretty high ball flight one of my "specialty" shots is to hit a low hooking 4i up near the green when I find myself in the left trees, rather than just taking my medicine and pitching it out. Right now my miss with driver is often left rough so it's pretty useful for me.

You have stated you have a cap around 6, that you manage courses far better than other players, and we've seen your average shot distances, which you yourself stated weren't entirely accurate as you leave off the bad shots. If you hit 70% of fairways, and you have the great course management skills you claim, and you average 32.4 putts/round, and your handicap is a 6, and your GIR is 33%, and you have a fairly low SS given your cap, what would YOU say the weakness in your game is?

My last score was an 81 on the 29th of December. It was mid 40's with a breeze and the greens were in winter shape. I had a water ball and at least two or three doubles. Once again I'd attribute most of the poor holes to bad chipping and pitching. I'm lost in that aspect right now. Three putt three times that I can think of, maybe more? In all honesty I was pretty happy, I'd played only a couple times since August.

So I answer your questions and points. Rather than address mine, you try to shift focus to me and my game, which I'm not trying to tout as outstanding in the first place.

[smiley9929]

waste of keystrokes and energy debating with the One

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='smiley9929' timestamp='1392045143' post='8636113']
waste of keystrokes and energy debating with the One
[/quote]

Indeed. On the bright side I believe I've been blocked for the first time. I feel like I've passed into manhood!

[Itsjustagame]

Snow here again this morning and the Olympics aren't on yet. Good to know where I can find alternative entertainment.

[jewofgolf]

Chief, I have to second that Brian is very bold about his own game and in his posts.

So, I want to also comment on blades. For the longest time I've been scared of blades. I've played them on and off forever. They make me sharpen my focus, have way better turf interaction, and are more predictable when shaping the ball.

The thing is, I hit the ball pretty high and a reasonable distance (7 iron @ 35*, 36.75" carries 175). The forgiveness issue...with a modern blade the forgiveness is basically the same as the players CB's. It [b]feels[/b] horrible, but I keep finding mishits going pretty close to the planned distance.

If you struggle to hit the ball into the air, then yeah blades are not for you. But even so, you could get some with very low bounce and weaken them significantly. You coming here and saying that nobody should be playing blades....some people (myself included) want the feedback. There is a massive difference in feedback. When I was using players CB's, I [b]thought[/b] certain shots were good. Well, I was just steering them. Now, I know I missed and I go work on it. There's nothing wrong with a 15 handicap golfer wanting that feedback.

[mshills]

It is not rocket surgery, but I've always thought that the whole short game versus long game debate is more about marginal utility... At the margins, the short game is far, far more important -- a good short game can turn that 75 into an even par round.

The wild swings are caused by the long game. I'm a high, by-the-skin-of-my-teeth single digit, and the really good and really bad days are not attributed to my short game, but to the long game. If I drive it where I can find it, I have a chance to break 80 most any day. If I drive it off the course or off the planet, there's no telling what kind of number I might put up!

Said differently, the long game has to come first. Within the sub-set of days when I drive the ball acceptably, yes, then short game becomes important, but if I stuff two OB off of the first tee, it's gonna be one of those days. :-)

[smiley9929]

I good friend of mine is a range rat. He (almost) never can be found on the practice green.

He spends oodles of time on the range and has literally the sweetest looking swing at my club.

The difference for him in any round is his short game. If it's on he's close to par (71). If it's off he's close to 80 or even higher. I'm talking chili dips and 3 putts here.

Not sure what else I can say, this is just a common occurance.

I do have many, many witnesses that can testify if necessary.

[Playaway]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1391946205' post='8628181']
Admittedly, I have too much time on my hands this morning, but after reading a couple of posts in one of the ubiquitous "blades vs CB/GI" threads, I can't resist.

The Big Lies on WRX (& other boards).


[b]1. Forged clubs are softer and feel better.[/b]

Back in the early 90's, the Ben Hogan golf company made the Edge GCD club in a forged model and a cast model. They were virtually identical (the cast model had about 1* more offset in the longer clubs). There were numerous tests done and I personally conducted a random, non-scientific test, as I owned both models. No one could consistently pick out the forged vs cast club.

[color=#0000cd][b]There is nothing inherent in the construction process of forged vs cast, that makes forged clubs feel any softer than cast clubs. Anyone who's hit PING Ansers and PING I20's side by side can confirm that forged doesn't equal 'softer feel". [/b][/color][color=#0000cd][b] It is all about head design, center of gravity, weight distribution, MOI, sound and a raft of other factors unrelated to the manufacturing process.[/b][/color]



[b]2. Blades are perfectly acceptable clubs for higher handicappers.[/b]

Of course they are, but only if you're more concerned about your ego and how you're perceived by other players. (Or don't care about your scores, you just love the feel.)

[color=#0000cd][b]In general, CB/GI/SGI clubs are much more forgiving than traditional blades. How anyone can argue this truism, is beyond my comprehension.[/b][/color]



[b]3. Shaft stiffness is a critical and important club fitting parameter for the average golfer.[/b]

Maybe in a driver or perhaps even in fairway woods, but when it comes to irons, shaft stiffness just isn't very important.

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...o-help-you-all/[/url][/b][/color]



[b]4. There are plenty of "good ball strikers" who have high handicaps because they can't chip or putt. (Or have "poor course management skills". How much management do you need if you're a good ball striker?)[/b]

The above has always been one of my favorites on WRX and other golf boards. This mystical person doesn't exist. It's illogical and a product of one's ego, attempting to alter reality.

[color=#0000CD][b]If you're a "good ball striker", you should be hitting 70% of your fairways and have 60%-70% GIR. If you're good enough to do that, you're good enough to get the golfball in the hole in less than 80 strokes. [/b][/color]



[b]5. Putting and Short Game is the key to lower scores.[/b]

That old wive's tale has been perpetuated for years and I'll give Dave Pelz credit for being the evangelist in the forefront. It's nonsense and most any statistician can quote a zillion numbers to show it's not as important as we're lead to believe. WRX's own Richie Hunt has posted numerous times on the subject. That's not to say that "great putting" doesn't make a difference, but within the "normal range" for putting, it's not so important. For now, here are a few references:

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/molinaris-revolution-long-game-trumps-short-game/"]http://www.golfchann...mps-short-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.strikergolfgps.com/golf-statistics-improve-your-golf-game/"]http://www.strikergo...your-golf-game/[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/10/23/stat-dude-long-game-is-more-important-than-short-game.html"]http://www.geoffshac...short-game.html[/url][/b][/color]

[color=#0000cd][b][url="http://www.golfmanna.com/Pages/Article.aspx?Id=54"]http://www.golfmanna...icle.aspx?Id=54[/url][/b][/color]



[b]6. Everyone needs to have custom fit clubs to play decent golf.[/b]

Hmmmm .... maybe I should stick with the BIG 5 Myths and leave 6-10 for another day.
[/quote]

Red Bull? Monster? 5 Hour? Please reveal the booster rocket(s) that fueled THAT.

Instead of wading through all this, I am going to spend the days it would take to go on a 5 day workout/practice regime. Probably better spent time for me.

[HiSpeed48]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392031080' post='8635109']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392009686' post='8634541']
I actually want to delve into this a bit further. What's a typical rating from say 6400 yards? Lets say 71. With a cap of 6 let's guess your 10 best scores average 77. So a truly average score (counting all 20 scores entered) from 6400 yards would be about 79 I'm guessing, or 7 over par.

Now lets assume on this average day of shooting 79 with 6/18 GIRS. On the 6 GIRS lets assume you are an excellent putter and do about 1.8 putts per GIR. 11 putts so on those 6 holes you are -1. To get to 7 over for the whole round that means on the other 12 holes, all greens missed in regulation, you're only 8 over.

Even if we assume your AVERAGE round never had anything worse than a bogey, you're up and down % would be 33%, but that's an unlikely situation. There probably is indeed a double bogey in the average round.

So now I'm thinking 6 GIRS at -1, one bad hole at +2, and eleven more non gir holes played at +6. A scrambling percentage of 42%.

Now this 42% assumes no three putts, out of bound strokes, water strokes, etc etc. Once again all of that is pretty unlikely so bottom line you probably get up and down over 50% of the time. That's PGA tour quality short game.

So long story short, a driver that goes 250 (which is enough to score on courses under 6600 yards), and a scrambling percentage that probably rivals some PGA tour players, but only a 6 handicap?

You are "say it like it is guy" so I'll give you a little taste of your own medicine. Your iron game is extremely weak for your handicap and its little shock that you're no fan of trying to utilize blade irons.
[/quote]

You're making way too many assumptions. I seldom make double bogeys, so that's a non-starter. Secondly, my home course has a Rating of 72.8/139, which means my average score is closer to 81/82. My scrambling isn't all that strong ... in the 30% range.

& I never claimed to be a great ball striker or iron player. I don't claim to be anything I'm not. I'm a 5.8, who sometimes plays like a 15 and seldom plays like a 5. I hit a lot of fairways and try not to do many dumb things.

Here are my numbers, if you'd like to see them. If you really want to dissect my game for me, stop by [url="http://www.golfshot.com/members/0330042120/rounds"]http://www.golfshot....30042120/rounds[/url] and give me some advice! (& btw, the "distance" #'s are not averages, I only measure quality shots. My true driving carry average is in the 220-225 range.)

BTW, there's a message in my stats. The message is, anyone can be a single digit HC. You don't have to do anything well, you just can't play stupid.

In most cases, guys who have been playing for 20 years and are still carrying around mid-double digit handicaps, either don't really care about their score or need to get a grip on how to play the game.
[/quote]

The message in your stats is [b]you played almost 200 times last year, and 90% of those rounds were at the same two or three courses. [/b]Most guys who carry mid digit handicaps could probably get just as low as you if they played the same schedule, regardless of whether or not they cared about their game.

Bottom line is you like to tell people what they should be doing, especially in regards to whether or not they can handle blades. Meanwhile, no matter how you look at the numbers, it's plainly obvious that your game cannot, as evidenced by your admitted low swing speed. But you feel that your decent handicap gives you the authority to give club advice to anyone with a worse handicap.

What is frustrating is even you realize your game is about straight driving, course management, and no stupid mistakes. Doesn't it stand to reason that the 7-12 handicaps who don't do these things near as well as you must have something you don't? For some it may be better putting, or bunker play, or short game. But for most it's going to be superior ball striking, especially iron play, as your driving, while not long is very straight and long enough for 6400-6600 yards.

Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.
[/quote]

Hmm, my 13 hdcp in 34 rounds last year on 11 different courses actually isn't that bad then. I guess it's true that hdcps really don't mean much when comparing completely different golfers.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392041327' post='8635729']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']
Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]

You'd be wrong about that. I'm a mid single digit handicap ... anyone who pays attention can play at that level.

As for my clubs? I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with.

If you prefer to use blades and shoot 85 or so, that's surely your choice and it won't change my life a whit.

& now I'm done with responding to you and I'm going to use the "ignore" feature in my preferences. Thanks for your input.
[/quote]

For someone who seems to boast proudly about being the tell it like it is guy you seem to be pretty sensitive to a little criticism.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your original post, but I have to agree with Chief when it comes to swing speed being an important factor in playing blades. i think this is also a factor in why so many ladies on the lpga use game improvement or at least shy away from the MB irons.

Only other question I have, is if you've already admitted you're a short hitter and you seem to be pretty straight off the tee, you are just having trouble reaching many of the greens in two, why do you talk about moving to shorter tees 'in a couple of years'? Why call them senior tees in the first place? The color tee someone plays should be based on distance they hit their tee shots, not their age. why not move up now? i only wonder if not moving up to a shorter tee and calling them the 'senior' tees also plays a part in your unwillingness to play anything other than blades with a slower swingspeed.

hope i don't make the ignore list, just telling it how i think. i could be completely wrong, and if so I have no don't others will let me know, except I won't get bent out of shape.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1392063464' post='8638517']

I have to agree with Chief when it comes to swing speed being an important factor in playing blades. i think this is also a factor in why so many ladies on the lpga use game improvement or at least shy away from the MB irons.

Only other question I have, is if you've already admitted you're a short hitter and you seem to be pretty straight off the tee, you are just having trouble reaching many of the greens in two, why do you talk about moving to shorter tees 'in a couple of years'? Why call them senior tees in the first place? The color tee someone plays should be based on distance they hit their tee shots, not their age. why not move up now? i only wonder if not moving up to a shorter tee and calling them the 'senior' tees also plays a part in your unwillingness to play anything other than blades with a slower swingspeed.

[/quote]

I'm curious ... what's your reasoning why somewhere around 60% of the PGA Touring Pros, don't use blades?

As for "Senior Tees", that's what they are. I shoot in the 70's almost as often as I shoot in the 80's, why should I move up? I'm perfectly happy with shooting the numbers I shoot.

& I don't play blades and it has nothing to do with swingspeed, it has to do with the fact that 95% of the golfing population aren't good enough to play blades ... they just think they are.

[ben w]

I'm surprised at the civility and discourse in this thread. Maybe it's Seandhi (I am formally renaming Sean2 to his new name which transcends life and imparts peace upon us lowly, easily-agitated folk) and his calming influence.


That being said, the point I agree on the most is the claim of being a good ball striker. Most guys do not understand what being a good ball striker means. It means you don't flub or thin shots 15 feet short of the green or 15 feet over. Tugs or pushes find the fringe, not 5 yards left or right. And good ball strikers are putting for birdies most of the time, not trying to scramble for pars. I have played with some good ball strikers (legitimate) whose short games or putter were cold that day, but they didn't shoot 80. Not even high 70s. Most will shoot just barely over par. I do agree that the short game counts for a ton of strokes, but the long game sets up scoring opportunities too. I can't remember the issue but Golf Digest did a big article on the number of driving mistakes a high/mid/low index makes vs a pro, and that statistic is a high factor (just like short game and putting which we all know).

[smiley9929]

spring is around the corner ... can't wait to get that new set of forged blades with x-stiff shafts that I just ordered !

what, I'm not good enough to play them ?

what, they won't feel any better than those ping eye-thingies I used to play or those acuity sticks at K-mart ?

what, the shaft flex doesn't even matter ?

AND, all of the practicing I do on my short game and putting will never help me score any better ?

holy toledo batman !!

[attachment=2063169:batman2.jpg]

maybe I should find another game to play ... or at least another reality to live in !

[pingfool]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1392063464' post='8638517']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1392041327' post='8635729']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1392040755' post='8635677']
Frankly I think you're pretty proud of your golf game and don't like the idea of someone "worse" than you (higher handicap) being able to successfully use clubs that you no longer have the ability to use.

[/quote]

You'd be wrong about that. I'm a mid single digit handicap ... anyone who pays attention can play at that level.

As for my clubs? I can play to my handicap with most any set of clubs and I surely don't care what anyone else plays with.

If you prefer to use blades and shoot 85 or so, that's surely your choice and it won't change my life a whit.

& now I'm done with responding to you and I'm going to use the "ignore" feature in my preferences. Thanks for your input.
[/quote]

For someone who seems to boast proudly about being the tell it like it is guy you seem to be pretty sensitive to a little criticism.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your original post, but I have to agree with Chief when it comes to swing speed being an important factor in playing blades. i think this is also a factor in why so many ladies on the lpga use game improvement or at least shy away from the MB irons.

Only other question I have, is if you've already admitted you're a short hitter and you seem to be pretty straight off the tee, you are just having trouble reaching many of the greens in two, why do you talk about moving to shorter tees 'in a couple of years'? Why call them senior tees in the first place? The color tee someone plays should be based on distance they hit their tee shots, not their age. why not move up now? i only wonder if not moving up to a shorter tee and calling them the 'senior' tees also plays a part in your unwillingness to play anything other than blades with a slower swingspeed.

[u][i][b]hope i don't make the ignore list[/b][/i][/u], just telling it how i think. i could be completely wrong, and if so I have no don't others will let me know, except I won't get bent out of shape.
[/quote]

the "ignore list" bus might have to upgrade to double decker coach - who knows we might become majority

[farmer]

I agree with Brian on a lot of his OP. I have an excellent short game, driving is my key. Chief, poor form to turn to personal attacks, and according to Tom W., blades have a lower CoG than GI type irons. Fitting is good, but not key to shooting good scores, unless you are severely out of average in body type.

[chrndwg]

I think I fall into category #4, and I think your numbers as outlined are a bit off the mark, so I'd like to give you a clear path to a good ball striker with a short game that kills my score. For background purposes, I play to an index of 8.3 on a very narrow / difficult course:

If we assume that a "good" ball striker by your standards hits 70% of fairways and 60% of greens (which seems high to me, but that debate has already been had), and then fill in some other context I think you get to a number higher than your easily breaking 80. Here are a list of my added assumptions:

Half of the time I miss the fairway, it results in an extra stroke to get to the green
Half the time I miss the green, my next shot is on the green.
I average 1.8 putts / hole (my actual rolling 20 round average)

With all those inputs, I end up with a scoring average of 81.3, which is not only over 80, but it doesn't account for the type of blow up holes that people with bad "course management" have. For example, I've built in zero holes where I pull a shot into the woods, punch out, hit a 3rd into a bunker and then it takes me 3 shots to get down. Similarly, for the purpose of sensitivity analysis, just changing the fairways / GIRs to 60%/50% respectively would up this average to 84.7 strokes / round.

There are plenty of rounds where I can go out there and shoot in the mid to low 70's, especially when I play on a more normal course with rough not composed of 100 ft. trees, but all of those rounds tend to have things in common: I usually don't 3 putt, I tend to not land in bunkers, and for one reason or another I get up and down a lot more frequently than normal.

Just thought this might add some clarity to what people mean when they say their short game is holding them back.

[MtlJeff]

70% GIR's is pretty darn good, that's 12.6 greens per round. I don't know the stats but i'd guess those are more in line with what guys in the 0-2 range would average. I'd say that's very good ballstriking. I probably hit a tad more greens then most guys i play with, who are in the 1-4 range, and i usually go for 11-14 greens

I haven't read the full thread, but i'd have a hard time imagining a mid handicap player hitting greens like that. You'd have to be just outright brutal around the greens, almost purposely bad

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1392076980' post='8640043']
I agree with Brian on a lot of his OP. I have an excellent short game, driving is my key. Chief, poor form to turn to personal attacks, and according to Tom W., blades have a lower CoG than GI type irons. Fitting is good, but not key to shooting good scores, unless you are severely out of average in body type.
[/quote]

I actually do somewhat regret "going on the offensive", I try and be a nice guy on here for the most part, but I wouldn't call it personal attacks. More like attacks on whether or not his game gave him the experience and knowledge to tell everyone else what is fact and fiction about golf, their clubs, and how theyre fitted. He posted "facts" which I'd agree are mostly true but certainly not 100%. He also posted lots of information on his own game, which I analyzed. I assumed if he was going to be the authority on these facts, and he had posted info on his own game, it was open to interpretation.

For what it's worth I've received more "likes" and PM's from my posts in this thread than anything else I've ever posted. I gather from the PM's that far more people have felt attacked or annoyed by Brian's authoritative posts, and willingness to tell people what's best for them.

Didn't realize that about CoG. I assumed that since wide soled SGI's were easier to elevate that they must have a lower CoG. Should've left club tech words out of it and just stated that plainly I suppose. Goes to show I'm no authority on the facts of golf either! :-)