The Official Wishon Sterling single length iron discussion

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

Most 5 irons are 37.5" stock? I don't think I know of any 5 irons that are stock 37.5" but I could be wrong....

 

My stock Titleist 5 iron is 38" and my stock 55 degree Vokey wedge is 35.25". I think that 2" either way is a big difference. I also carry a 4 iron so then what?

 

I'm a legit plus handicap and I hit it pretty far the portion of my bag that I place the most importance on are long irons/woods for getting on par 5's in two and 130 and in because I have that yardage into par 4's quite often. I understand that my game will be considered an outlier but I raised the question of what are people going to carry for a 60 degree wedge but I'm also interested in what people are going to do at the top of their bag say between their shortest wood/hybrid and the 5 iron or hybrid.

 

The more I think about the single length thing the more it makes less sense to me...

 

I don't want to be a jerk and all but if you are not interested in the concept of SL irons then how come you are posting in this thread?

 

As mentioned, you can build your wedges shorter anyway, that's the beauty of Wishon's hosel weight port.

 

I could be sold on the idea. I thought it was interesting 30 years ago when it was tried. I'm trying to gather information about what people are planning on doing below the SW and above the 5 iron. I think your idea of progressive getting shorter below 8 iron is interesting too but it does defeat the purpose a little bit.

 

Are my questions ok or is this just a hail hail to single length irons and if you don't think they're perfect you should leave "discussion"?

[Nessism]

Of course questions are okay. Just hoping to keep the negativity down, particularly from guys that have no legit interest in the concept (this last bit is not directed at you).

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of overlength short irons and wedges either, but these heads give people an out. Maybe build them 1/2" over?

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

Of course questions are okay. Just hoping to keep the negativity down, particularly from guys that have no legit interest in the concept (this last bit is not directed at you).

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of overlength short irons and wedges either, but these heads give people an out. Maybe build them 1/2" over?

 

What would be the logical move above the 5 iron?

[Nessism]

Of course questions are okay. Just hoping to keep the negativity down, particularly from guys that have no legit interest in the concept (this last bit is not directed at you).

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of overlength short irons and wedges either, but these heads give people an out. Maybe build them 1/2" over?

 

What would be the logical move above the 5 iron?

 

I'd do a hybrid, maybe two, built on the short side of average. Obviously, you would have to learn some new distance gaps. The heads can be bent a little too if you want to add or degrease distance between certain clubs.

[g-off]

thank god pxg isn't trying this or this would be out of hand already! Like the concept always curious about the tech behind these things, will have to wait and see. Better contact shorter shaft I'd take all day, I do already play a 44" driver and that made a huge difference in accuracy and distance.

[diggingestdog]

My situation may be unique. What works for one will most certainly not work for others. What seems odd to some will work for others. It's no different in principle than the length you choose to play your driver. It's an equipment choice. It's just as ridiculous to assume it's a flawed concept as it would be for me to assume it would work for everyone or even most simply because it works for me. If the lofts are properly gapped with respect to the length it can work. But not for everyone.

I don't have a lot of swing speed anymore. Maybe that contributes to it. My driver is now 235ish. I've always been more comfortable with an upright stance and swing. This works for me. It makes sense to me. My wedges are not the same length as my irons. They're an inch shorter. I only swing 1/2 and 3/4 swings with my wedges. My iron game has never been more consistent.

[Klap]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

[Klap]

The Wishons look sweet, but....

 

I can see the single length irons as a potential plus for the 3 - 6 irons, but for the real scoring clubs 7-PW, I don't see the benefit.

What are people going to be carrying for a 60 degree wedge with this? I'm not sure I could get acclimated to hitting a 37" long iron but I know I'm not ready to start messing around with the ball position in my short game to make the adjustment to a 37" SW.

 

From an iron perspective the idea makes sense on paper but I'm not sure it makes sense with the scoring clubs. I suppose you could play a normal length 60 and transform your short game to chipping with a 60 or hitting bump and runs.

 

Don't underestimate your most comfortable posture. I've been experimenting with very long wedges, 39" even. (I am 7foot tall) and you get used to it really fast if that lenght means your body is more comfortable making a correct swing.

You will probably become more consistent over the whole set, in my experience that resulted in more precision.

[tx33]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

The heads are 274g with hand sorting -2g > 272g which is 'normal' for Wishon 8-irons. How long you can go depends on the shaft weight, balance point and target SW/MOI. To compensate for the extra 2" in length you'd need to reduce nett shaft weight by 20g to hit a similar swing weight and even more to stay within MOI. Not to mention the difference in balance point/feel that goes along with it. AFAIK Tom specifically designed the Sterling to play shorter than other SL sets to prevent the short irons from going too far and leaving a distance gap in the scoring clubs, so going long is not really what they were designed for.

[Your-away!]

Surely you would get all the irons the same length as your most consistent iron, 7 iron for me

 

7 iron length for me is 37" pretty much standard

 

so 4 - pw all at 37",

 

Then get my 3 wedges maybe an inch shorter at 36" with my lob wedge having a longer grip so i can grip down for chip shots

 

sounds like a good idea to me and not too difficult as long as you get the yardage gapping correct, could end up with the long irons a bit stronger lofted but dont see that being too much of a problem.

[RichieHunt]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

The issue is more of the MOI (swingweight) of the club at longer lengths. At 39", that is likely to create some very heavy clubs. That would be like putting a 2-iron length shaft in a 8-iron head. Very, very heavy and likely too heavy for use. You could go with a very light shaft, but now a higher concentration of the club's weight is towards the head which can throw off the balance of the club quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

Analyzing it, but not over-analyzing it. I'm still trying to figure out how hitting a 37 inch PW is more accurate than a 35 inch PW. Bring on the science.

 

Personally, I think the shaft length causing a difference in directional accuracy is likely to be nominal at best. The spin loft is still going to be the same, so the curvature is likely to be the same. From there, it becomes a face control issue and maybe the longer shaft is harder to control the face for some golfers, but that may be a case of having to use a different shaft.

 

I think the distance control could very well be better with a 37-inch PW. Better contact would lead me to believe that. And if you're getting into that 'groove' where every club has more of an identical swing mechanics behind it, I would think that would be more beneficial to reproduce quality swings than going from say a 4-iron at 38.5" long to a PW at 35-3/4" long.

 

Also, I'm a believer in MOI matching. The single length concept will provide an MOI match. The incremental length concept does not. With MOI matching I have undoubtedly seen far better face contact with all levels of golfers compared to swingweight matching.

 

I will say this, if you ever get to watch DeChambeau's US Amateur victory again, he won thru his iron play and his putting. And to me, what stood out was that his distance control with the irons was far superior to the rest of the field. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I think he may be onto something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

No disrespect to Tom, but I'd like to know what club fitter is experienced in building and fitting single length clubs, rather than just going to my local club fitter and hoping he knows what he's doing.

 

From my experience and knowledge, I think it will make the club fitter's job easier.

 

The only thing I would be concerned about is if there is a difference in shaft fitting for Single Length vs. incremental length. For instance, perhaps a golfer that loves Dynamic Gold Shafts in his standard set does not perform nearly as well with those shafts in the Single Length. I think the fix is simple...try different shafts until you find the one that works best for you. But, I'm concerned that this may be the case and people dismiss the Single Length irons instead trying to find a different shaft that works for them.

 

The other part is the fitter should know MOI matching. However, it should be much easier to achieve that and may not even really require the MOI machine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[BMC]

Analyzing it, but not over-analyzing it. I'm still trying to figure out how hitting a 37 inch PW is more accurate than a 35 inch PW. Bring on the science.

 

Personally, I think the shaft length causing a difference in directional accuracy is likely to be nominal at best. The spin loft is still going to be the same, so the curvature is likely to be the same. From there, it becomes a face control issue and maybe the longer shaft is harder to control the face for some golfers, but that may be a case of having to use a different shaft.

 

I think the distance control could very well be better with a 37-inch PW. Better contact would lead me to believe that. And if you're getting into that 'groove' where every club has more of an identical swing mechanics behind it, I would think that would be more beneficial to reproduce quality swings than going from say a 4-iron at 38.5" long to a PW at 35-3/4" long.

 

Also, I'm a believer in MOI matching. The single length concept will provide an MOI match. The incremental length concept does not. With MOI matching I have undoubtedly seen far better face contact with all levels of golfers compared to swingweight matching.

 

I will say this, if you ever get to watch DeChambeau's US Amateur victory again, he won thru his iron play and his putting. And to me, what stood out was that his distance control with the irons was far superior to the rest of the field. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I think he may be onto something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Good post. I accidentally bought a used set of irons that were +1 inch. PW was 36.5 and flew too high and balooned into the wind.

Can't imagine what a 37 or 37.5 might do.

 

The best players, in general, want to hit the short irons low and the long irons high, this goes against that theory?

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

If you are marketing same length irons, shouldn't the marketing material show that. Irons in the pdf look different length.

I do like the concept though.

[AMATEUR_GOLFER79]

I hope to try a set, as well. I'm a fan of Tom W.

 

What's the price of a set going to coming out to? They won't be available till March, is this correct?

 

I do wonder how far I could consistently hit a SL 23* 5i or 5h. Maybe in the future there might be a SL 19 or 20* 4i or 4h? Considering gapping from my irons to woods now is all.

 

Thank you very much. Latest report from our production factory is we should have inventory here to introduce the model by the first week of March.

 

As with all my designs, they are available through independent custom clubfitters. As independents, they set their retail pricing for every model they offer in their work. We can offer suggestions but we cannot compel their pricing on anything they do. So you will want to contact a clubmaker in your area to inquire about their pricing and demo/test club program and fitting analysis.

 

More than likely the final pricing will be commensurate with what big stores charge for big OEM company forged carbon steel iron sets. This is because since the 5, 6, 7 are carbon steel + high COR face and the 8 to wedges are carbon steel one piece heads, the pricing of the heads to the clubmakers is going to be very much the same as the pricing of a forged carbon steel iron head to the clubmakers.

 

More information including a video is up on our website now - http://wishongolf.com/designs/sets/sterling-irons-single-length-set/

 

Thanks very much,

TOM

[AMATEUR_GOLFER79]

So if I was to order these what would Ido shaft wise? Do you recommend using the same shaft for every head (KBS tour 120 in 37 inch length or do you get a set of KBS shafts and cut them all to the same length?)

[AMATEUR_GOLFER79]

So if I was to order these what would Ido shaft wise? Do you recommend using the same shaft for every head (KBS tour 120 in 37 inch length or do you get a set of KBS shafts and cut them all to the same length?)

 

 

 

So if I was to order these what would Ido shaft wise? Do you recommend using the same shaft for every head (KBS tour 120 in 37 inch length or do you get a set of KBS shafts and cut them all to the same length?)

 

 

 

Like to give these a try

[TomWishon]

If you are marketing same length irons, shouldn't the marketing material show that. Irons in the pdf look different length.

I do like the concept though.

 

Not really - look here - http://wishongolf.com/designs/sets/sterling-irons-single-length-set/

[TomWishon]

So if I was to order these what would Ido shaft wise? Do you recommend using the same shaft for every head (KBS tour 120 in 37 inch length or do you get a set of KBS shafts and cut them all to the same length?)

 

Absolutely - regardless what single length set you might try, the concept is all based on same length, same shaft weight, same shaft flex, same total weight, same head weight, same grip weight, same balance point so that you can have each iron with the same exact swing feel to try to see if that brings about better shot consistency, more on center hits especially with the lower loft heads, and more swing repeatability for over all better consistency.

 

So shaft wise once you choose the length you think is most comfortable for you, whether than be 7 or 8 iron length in my design, or 5-6 iron length in someone else's, you then are using the same exact shaft, same shaft trim if it is parallel, same raw length shaft if it is taper tip.

[TomWishon]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

No they won't work at 39 or 38.5 or 38 because the swingweights or rather headweight feel will be too high for the vast majority of golfers. They can work at 37.5 if you use a super light 55-60 gram shaft that fits you. And they will work at 37 and 36.5 with pretty much most shafts.

 

I think if you drill holes into these pretty heads, I will come and find you and hurt you !!!! :taunt:

[TomWishon]

 

What would be the logical move above the 5 iron?

 

Your normal hybrids and fairway woods that achieve the distances above the 5 iron in this set. Even at 36.5" and 37", the two lengths that this set is created to allow, the high COR and lower loft design of the 5 and 6 and 7 is possibly going to hit the ball a little farther for most players than what they are used to with their conventional set - unless of course they have been playing a game improvement set in which their 5 iron is already 23* loft.

 

So you'll have to look at your hybrids and woods and note how far you hit them, then see how that dovetails into distance gaps to the #5 iron in this set.

Could there be hybrids in lower lofts for this set? I really don't think so because achieving the shot height you want with a 36.5" long hybrid that is 19-20* will require a much higher than normal clubhead speed to be able to generate the ball speed required to push that low of a loft as high as you can a much longer length hybrid of the same loft.

 

This is one of THE MOST FASCINATING things that we discovered in the development of this model. Using an 8 iron or even 7 iron length means you have a good notch lower clubhead speed than you have with a 39"/40" club which is where a lot of golfers' hybrids are set at these days. That much lower clubhead speed means lower ball speed. Lower ball speed means that the shot height cannot be as high for the same launch angle.

 

Hence what we found is that if the golfer's 5 iron speed is under 80mph, with a 36.5" to 37" hybrid of 18-19-20* loft, you really can't get the ball up as high in the air as you can with a 39/40" hybrid of that same low loft.

 

So that's why we start the set at a 5 iron. And why golfers will then need to look at their hybrid and higher loft wood carry distances to see how they match in distance gap wise with this 5 iron.

 

Hope this helps.

[TomWishon]

Surely you would get all the irons the same length as your most consistent iron, 7 iron for me

 

7 iron length for me is 37" pretty much standard

 

so 4 - pw all at 37",

 

Then get my 3 wedges maybe an inch shorter at 36" with my lob wedge having a longer grip so i can grip down for chip shots

 

sounds like a good idea to me and not too difficult as long as you get the yardage gapping correct, could end up with the long irons a bit stronger lofted but dont see that being too much of a problem.

 

The very reason that we chose a 36.5" length for the single length, and then decided to design the head weights so a 37" length could be chosen as well is because we feel if you look at the vast majority of golfers, a very high percentage will hit their current 7 or 8 iron more consistently and thus be a favorite club.

 

Sure, no question, There will certainly be some players for whom that favorite length or even most comfortable length, will be longer than that. That's to be expected because golfers are different and don't all fall into the same categories. But we feel strongly those who prefer 38-39" length are in the minority to those who feel 7 or 8 iron length is more consistent and comfortable.

 

In a perfect world with all the money and all the ways to get people to listen to information, it could be wise to create multiple versions of a single length concept so everyone has their length of choice or variations thereof.

 

But this is how we did it because we think that single length based on a shorter length like 7 or 8 iron can bring about better consistency than single length based on a 5 or 6 iron. And with the high COR design of the low loft heads in this set, that helps make up for possible loss of distance in the low loft heads because we did choose a shorter length with going with 7 or 8 iron.

 

it's probably not going to be for all golfers, I know that and knew it from day one because my whole career has been about CUSTOM FITTING and recognizing how different golfers need different specs to play their best.

 

But I do feel this is interesting if only because of the fact that what single length does is ensure the duplication of exactly the same swing feel AND the same posture/spine angle/plane for each iron. Whether that achieves the right distance for each iron and proper distance gaps then becomes a matter of TWEAKING THE FIT FOR THE LOFTS OF EACH IRON - because golfers are different in swing speed and angle of attack and those two things determine how far we hit any loft and what our distance gaps are going to be for any loft sequence.

 

That's one reason why I made all the heads with soft hosels - the other was for dynamic lie fitting purposes because that's important too.

[ode1]

IMO, you still need to get these fit for head weight, shaft weight, and clublength and moi/sw to find the sweet spot for you....I think like most off the rack guys or cut and gluers (clubmaking perse) are going to go about it the same they always have and just hope what they end up w/ something that works vs. those who have been fit or through trial and error know what SW/MOI works best for them. The truly different aspect of this concept is that the lofts are going to change within that SW/MOI and how is that going to play out with performance, ball flight, etc on the course. I plan on trying these or the Pinhawks but I will still be tinkering w/ them w/ the 7i vs. 8i length and fine tuning the sw/MOI, as I basically know what works for me in that regard, but what I'm not sure about is will these be better at 7i or 8i or in between. Look fwd seeing the real pics and on course reviews once others have put into play.

[TomWishon]

 

The only thing I would be concerned about is if there is a difference in shaft fitting for Single Length vs. incremental length. For instance, perhaps a golfer that loves Dynamic Gold Shafts in his standard set does not perform nearly as well with those shafts in the Single Length. I think the fix is simple...try different shafts until you find the one that works best for you. But, I'm concerned that this may be the case and people dismiss the Single Length irons instead trying to find a different shaft that works for them.

 

The other part is the fitter should know MOI matching. However, it should be much easier to achieve that and may not even really require the MOI machine.

 

If the shaft in the golfer's current 7 or 8 iron is good for him, with good feel and everything, then it will be fine for him in anyone's single length set. as long as the same 7 or 8 iron length is used and as long as the bottom of bore to ground is the same from the previous set to this set.

 

The whole concept of technology behind anyone's single length set is that by having same length, same shaft weight, same total weight, same grip weight, same head weight, you then have all three moments of the club perfectly duplicated for each club. One of those moments is the MOI we define in the work we have done in developing MOI matching of sets within incremental length assembly.

 

If you are interested in learning more about this three moments thing, get a copy of Dr Theodore Jorgenson's book The Physics of Golf. He explains it pretty well as to what these three separate moments are in a golf club and how single length ensures they are the same for each club in a set.

 

Little trivia point - Ted Jorgenson was my freshman physics teacher in 1968-9 at the University of Nebraska - ha, small world there as it turned out.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

What would be the logical move above the 5 iron?

 

Your normal hybrids and fairway woods that achieve the distances above the 5 iron in this set. Even at 36.5" and 37", the two lengths that this set is created to allow, the high COR and lower loft design of the 5 and 6 and 7 is possibly going to hit the ball a little farther for most players than what they are used to with their conventional set - unless of course they have been playing a game improvement set in which their 5 iron is already 23* loft.

 

So you'll have to look at your hybrids and woods and note how far you hit them, then see how that dovetails into distance gaps to the #5 iron in this set.

Could there be hybrids in lower lofts for this set? I really don't think so because achieving the shot height you want with a 36.5" long hybrid that is 19-20* will require a much higher than normal clubhead speed to be able to generate the ball speed required to push that low of a loft as high as you can a much longer length hybrid of the same loft.

 

This is one of THE MOST FASCINATING things that we discovered in the development of this model. Using an 8 iron or even 7 iron length means you have a good notch lower clubhead speed than you have with a 39"/40" club which is where a lot of golfers' hybrids are set at these days. That much lower clubhead speed means lower ball speed. Lower ball speed means that the shot height cannot be as high for the same launch angle.

 

Hence what we found is that if the golfer's 5 iron speed is under 80mph, with a 36.5" to 37" hybrid of 18-19-20* loft, you really can't get the ball up as high in the air as you can with a 39/40" hybrid of that same low loft.

 

So that's why we start the set at a 5 iron. And why golfers will then need to look at their hybrid and higher loft wood carry distances to see how they match in distance gap wise with this 5 iron.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I like the idea but considering everything it probably isn't for me. I like the SL concept but it just seems like a lot of work and risk to switch to it.

 

The company I own works with manufacturing companies to help them with the way they are organized as well as how the go about making the things that their customers will buy. I have worked with golf specific OEMs in the past so I know a little bit about what makes them tick. My thoughts on this is the concept is really good but everyone who has tried it in the past has failed to give me something I can put in my golf bag and try. I get that you're saying go get fit by a professional but the fact of the matter is most people just want to grab something off the shelf and go.

 

Why not have an inline offering of a 4 hybrid and two fairway woods? I know you want to hit your pricing strategy for a set but it would seem easy to me to offer a 3 wood, 5 wood, and 4 hybrid as "add ons" so I don't have to first adapt to the SL set and then potential overhaul the top and bottom of my bag.

[TomWishon]

No disrespect to Tom, but I'd like to know what club fitter is experienced in building and fitting single length clubs, rather than just going to my local club fitter and hoping he knows what he's doing.

 

Just because the clubs would all be made to the same length, that does not mean this is a whole different unknown area of fitting for a clubmaker. In fact, certain parts become easier.

 

In the fitting of a single length set, the clubmaker has to analyze and make fitting decisions for, 1) shaft weight, 2) shaft flex and bend profile, 3) total weight, 4) swingweight or headweight feel, 5) Dynamic lie fitting, 6) grip type and size, 7) the final lofts and loft gaps to fit the golfer's clubhead speed and angle of attack to better ensure proper distances and distance gaps. And of course, the length decision is simply whether the golfer would be a little more COMFORTABLE with a 37 or 36.5" length. And that's more a golfer decision than the fitter's decision, really, because we are talking COMFORT as the key element of decision for that.

 

Now, when you look at the fitting of all these things - none of them would be different than what the fitter would have to do to decide on all of them for a golfer being fit into a conventional incremental length set.

 

The one and only one that probably isn't looked at all that much in a conventional set fitting is this matter of loft and loft gapping. Technically that should be done in any iron set fitting but it usually isn't because golfers and clubmakers just assume that it will be ok in a normal set.

 

But how about +/- tolerances in loft in any iron set? How about golfer differences in clubhead speed and angle of attack because those two swing elements DO affect how far we hit any loft and what our distance gap will be for any given loft gaps in a set.

 

Here, in the single length this matter of loft fitting could be a little more important because we are deviating from incremental lengths and we are using one and only one length. that's only to be expected. But it won't be a big deal for most because in the determination of shot distance with the irons, 80-85% comes from the loft, 15-20% from the length. So for most, there won't be any loft tweaks for the set to be fine. for some there may be because of their particular speed and A of A.

 

but then too, super skilled clubfitters check and do this with any iron set they fit.

 

And Trackman opened a whole door about this on tour when they started to offer distance gapping for the pros on practice round days - and when they did that, many pros were amazed that they had to tweak a loft here and there on some irons to get perfect distance gaps between the irons.

 

Last thing - as we prepare the clubmakers for this, we have shot a video that we produced only for the clubmaker in which we talk about this whole fitting part and how to work with making sure golfers are well fit if they do come to a clubmaker for a single length set.

[TomWishon]

I like the idea but considering everything it probably isn't for me. I like the SL concept but it just seems like a lot of work and risk to switch to it.

 

I get that you're saying go get fit by a professional but the fact of the matter is most people just want to grab something off the shelf and go.

 

Why not have an inline offering of a 4 hybrid and two fairway woods? I know you want to hit your pricing strategy for a set but it would seem easy to me to offer a 3 wood, 5 wood, and 4 hybrid as "add ons" so I don't have to first adapt to the SL set and then potential overhaul the top and bottom of my bag.

 

You're wise to think long and hard about it and decide that it may not be right for you. We saw that with a couple of guys in the hit testing - they hit the clubs just fine, but mentally/psychologically they just could not wrap their heads about making that big of a change after 30-40 yrs of playing incremental length irons.

 

That's one very big reason why I made a video just for the clubmakers to urge them to take the golfer through test clubs and let him hit a 5, 7, 9 or 5, 9, or 7,9 for a few days so they could get a feeling for what this is and does before they pull the trigger.

 

You know, I never have designed clubheads, shafts, grips and clubfitting technology expressly to make money and to try to sell the most we could. Sounds corny in today's world, I get that. But I never have. To me it's always been far more about the technology, learning something I never knew before about clubs, and trying our best to help golfers get what's best for them and their game. That's a big reason I have been fired twice in my career as well when I refused to go for the money first in projects. Shoot, we've talked people out of buying a model a lot of times when we felt it wasn't the best for them and their game and their wallet.

 

Sales wise, there won't be any golfers who buy this set by walking in a golf store and grabbing it off the rack like you say is done with other clubs. Because we only sell our designs to custom clubmakers and we don't do business with the traditional retail stores because they don't have more experienced clubmakers to fit and build from scratch.

 

And as far as your comment about designing to "hit our pricing strategy" - please forgive me for a very big LOL on that one !!! Absolutely no disrespect intended in my LOL - but every single one of our set models is sold in whatever set makeup or number of heads the clubmaker wants. If they want an 8, 9, PW or single head they can have that just as they can buy a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, P, A, S in some other set. We only exist for custom fitting - not for volume sales of 3x8 sets off the rack like the bigs do.

 

And if you take a look at our catalog, you'll see a TON of all sorts of other design models that are as far from single length as can be. WE're not married to single length as the be all and end all. It's a VERY interesting concept, we did our best to make the best version of it possible, and it's not for everyone.

 

We're a custom design and engineering and custom fitting company first, foremost and always - creating models with the different design concepts and materials and performance technology coupled with teaching the clubmakers how to fit properly is what we do and only do in our work.

 

I like to think that we leave the sophistication to our engineering and research work instead! Now that part I am proud of because that's what's mattered more to me in my work.

 

Thanks though for your comments for sure !!

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

I like the idea but considering everything it probably isn't for me. I like the SL concept but it just seems like a lot of work and risk to switch to it.

 

I get that you're saying go get fit by a professional but the fact of the matter is most people just want to grab something off the shelf and go.

 

Why not have an inline offering of a 4 hybrid and two fairway woods? I know you want to hit your pricing strategy for a set but it would seem easy to me to offer a 3 wood, 5 wood, and 4 hybrid as "add ons" so I don't have to first adapt to the SL set and then potential overhaul the top and bottom of my bag.

 

You're wise to think long and hard about it and decide that it may not be right for you. We saw that with a couple of guys in the hit testing - they hit the clubs just fine, but mentally/psychologically they just could not wrap their heads about making that big of a change after 30-40 yrs of playing incremental length irons.

 

That's one very big reason why I made a video just for the clubmakers to urge them to take the golfer through test clubs and let him hit a 5, 7, 9 or 5, 9, or 7,9 for a few days so they could get a feeling for what this is and does before they pull the trigger.

 

You know, I never have designed clubheads, shafts, grips and clubfitting technology expressly to make money and to try to sell the most we could. Sounds corny in today's world, I get that. But I never have. To me it's always been far more about the technology, learning something I never knew before about clubs, and trying our best to help golfers get what's best for them and their game. That's a big reason I have been fired twice in my career as well when I refused to go for the money first in projects. Shoot, we've talked people out of buying a model a lot of times when we felt it wasn't the best for them and their game and their wallet.

 

Sales wise, there won't be any golfers who buy this set by walking in a golf store and grabbing it off the rack like you say is done with other clubs. Because we only sell our designs to custom clubmakers and we don't do business with the traditional retail stores because they don't have more experienced clubmakers to fit and build from scratch.

 

And as far as your comment about designing to "hit our pricing strategy" - please forgive me for a very big LOL on that one !!! Absolutely no disrespect intended in my LOL - but every single one of our set models is sold in whatever set makeup or number of heads the clubmaker wants. If they want an 8, 9, PW or single head they can have that just as they can buy a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, P, A, S in some other set. We only exist for custom fitting - not for volume sales of 3x8 sets off the rack like the bigs do.

 

And if you take a look at our catalog, you'll see a TON of all sorts of other design models that are as far from single length as can be. WE're not married to single length as the be all and end all. It's a VERY interesting concept, we did our best to make the best version of it possible, and it's not for everyone.

 

We're a custom design and engineering and custom fitting company first, foremost and always - creating models with the different design concepts and materials and performance technology coupled with teaching the clubmakers how to fit properly is what we do and only do in our work.

 

I like to think that we leave the sophistication to our engineering and research work instead! Now that part I am proud of because that's what's mattered more to me in my work.

 

Thanks though for your comments for sure !!

 

If fitting a set of irons into a price point that would fit inline with what people expect is a LOL idea can you explain why you stopped at 5 hybrid and only went down to SW? If you're not worried about pricing why did you decide not to go higher in the bag?

[TomWishon]

 

If fitting a set of irons into a price point that would fit inline with what people expect is a LOL idea can you explain why you stopped at 5 hybrid and only went down to SW? If you're not worried about pricing why did you decide not to go higher in the bag?

 

Because when you go with a shorter length in the single length as we did at 36.5", the resulting drop in clubhead speed means for golfers with avg to slower speed to begin with, they can't generate enough ball speed to bring about a high enough trajectory for lofts that are under 23* to likely be happy with the clubs of these lower lofts. Higher speed players are fine. Avg to slower speeds would hit a<23* club of 36.5" too low most times.

 

This was just one of several new things that we learned in the development of the set.

 

If you went with a 6 iron length, that now starts to get the clubhead speed up there to where ball speed is higher and can for some avg speed players, generate enough shot height at <23* to be happy with the club.

 

It works like this - you have two players with the same angle of attack who hit the same 23* loft club at 36.5" length. Player one has a clubhead speed of 80mph, while player two is at 70mph. Player one generates a much higher ball speed than player two because of that +10mph clubhead speed difference. Because both have the same angle of attack, both achieve the same launch angle with the 23* loft club. But player one's shot height will be 30 feet higher because his clubhead speed generates much more ball speed - so the ball keeps going up and up and up on that same launch angle to achieve a 30 feet higher shot than it will for player two.

 

And then there was one other very fascinating thing we learned - or rather we knew this from our previous high COR face iron design experience, but we got to see it in action in the single length development.

 

Thin face, high COR irons tend to generate a higher launch angle and from it, higher shot trajectory for most players than will conventional thick face, normal COR irons OF THE SAME LOFT. The reason is because the high COR thin face flexes inward more. That of course is the source of the higher COR and higher ball speed from such a design. But with the increased face flexing, the ball takes off higher for any given loft that it will off the face of a conventional lower COR iron.

 

So that means for a lot of players of average clubhead speed, which we rate as 70-77mph with a 38" 5-iron, they can hit this 5 IRON higher than they can hit the 5 HYBRID. That was really interesting to see as well.

 

So all this meant that in the beginning I did design a 4 hybrid in the set. but over the course of a lot of hit testing, I chose to drop the 4 hybrid because at 36.5" length, pretty much only those with >80mph iron speed could hit it high enough to where I thought they would be happy. And we also see a whole lot of golfers using 3 and 4 hybrids these days, having dumped 3 and 4 irons. so that too played into it because while we see that a very good player can play with this Sterling set for sure, we see it first and foremost as a design for those who shoot very low 80s and higher.

 

Down the road if single length proves to have staying power in the industry, then for sure other set makeups can and should be designed which aim at specific other segments of players in the market.