The Official Wishon Sterling single length iron discussion

[Sean2]

What about a fellow who needs a 5-iron length of 38.75 inches, in graphite? Would a SL set of irons work for him?

[mikpga]

So the length options only vary from 36.5 to 37?

 

Thought they would offer a slightly wider variance in lengths than only an half inch?

[PouncePony]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

No they won't work at 39 or 38.5 or 38 because the swingweights or rather headweight feel will be too high for the vast majority of golfers. They can work at 37.5 if you use a super light 55-60 gram shaft that fits you. And they will work at 37 and 36.5 with pretty much most shafts.

 

I think if you drill holes into these pretty heads, I will come and find you and hurt you !!!! :taunt:

What about a fellow who needs a 5-iron length of 38.75 inches, in graphite? Would a SL set of irons work for him?

 

See Tom's earlier response

[PJ72]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

No they won't work at 39 or 38.5 or 38 because the swingweights or rather headweight feel will be too high for the vast majority of golfers. They can work at 37.5 if you use a super light 55-60 gram shaft that fits you. And they will work at 37 and 36.5 with pretty much most shafts.

 

I think if you drill holes into these pretty heads, I will come and find you and hurt you !!!! :taunt:

 

He's 7ft you know!?

[RichieHunt]

So the length options only vary from 36.5 to 37?

 

Thought they would offer a slightly wider variance in lengths than only an half inch?

 

No.

 

Those are recommended length options. It depends on the golfer.

 

For instance, if you are a tall golfer and feel you need a 37-1/2" shafts and your optimal MOI is at 2,725 and you install the clubs and they come out to 2,750, then cutting a 1/4" off may be right for you. That will drop the MOI down to roughly 2,725 so they are not too heavy for you and you're only cutting off 1/4". With anything there is some flexibility, but I would strongly advise against going with these 38+ inch clubs that many people think is desirable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[PJ72]

What would be the logical move above the 5 iron?

 

Your normal hybrids and fairway woods that achieve the distances above the 5 iron in this set. Even at 36.5" and 37", the two lengths that this set is created to allow, the high COR and lower loft design of the 5 and 6 and 7 is possibly going to hit the ball a little farther for most players than what they are used to with their conventional set - unless of course they have been playing a game improvement set in which their 5 iron is already 23* loft.

 

So you'll have to look at your hybrids and woods and note how far you hit them, then see how that dovetails into distance gaps to the #5 iron in this set.

Could there be hybrids in lower lofts for this set? I really don't think so because achieving the shot height you want with a 36.5" long hybrid that is 19-20* will require a much higher than normal clubhead speed to be able to generate the ball speed required to push that low of a loft as high as you can a much longer length hybrid of the same loft.

 

This is one of THE MOST FASCINATING things that we discovered in the development of this model. Using an 8 iron or even 7 iron length means you have a good notch lower clubhead speed than you have with a 39"/40" club which is where a lot of golfers' hybrids are set at these days. That much lower clubhead speed means lower ball speed. Lower ball speed means that the shot height cannot be as high for the same launch angle.

 

Hence what we found is that if the golfer's 5 iron speed is under 80mph, with a 36.5" to 37" hybrid of 18-19-20* loft, you really can't get the ball up as high in the air as you can with a 39/40" hybrid of that same low loft.

 

So that's why we start the set at a 5 iron. And why golfers will then need to look at their hybrid and higher loft wood carry distances to see how they match in distance gap wise with this 5 iron.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Great post Tom, thanks for explaining things to us so well.

 

So, if I were to get fitted for an SL set, you would recommend filling in the top end of the bag with some of your MOI matched clubs from your other sets? Obviously, I'd want a driver, a 3 or 4 wood and a couple of long irons, probably a 3 and 4.

 

Would that be the ultimate set - 5i-GW SL and the rest in MOI matched (and shorter than standard lengths)? 5i-GW = 37", Driver 43", 4 wood 41", 3 iron 38", 4 iron 37.5" perhaps?

 

Btw, how would an SL set compare to your other MOI matched sets in relation to their MOI?

 

Man, I'm excited to try these now!

 

 

EDIT:- I'm just looking at the lofts of the SL set and the 5 iron is 23 degrees, which is the same a 4 iron about. So, without a LW and a 4 iron, most peoples' sets would only consist of 12 clubs, with good gapping all the way through.

[RichieHunt]

Good post. I accidentally bought a used set of irons that were +1 inch. PW was 36.5 and flew too high and balooned into the wind.

Can't imagine what a 37 or 37.5 might do.

 

The best players, in general, want to hit the short irons low and the long irons high, this goes against that theory?

 

Ballooning some incremental length irons could be due to a variety of issues that don't pertain to single length irons. The extra length causes the effective lie angle to be more upright and I've always found that when the lie angle is effectively too upright, it's balloon hook city. And I don't know if you had different shafts which is a possibility since adding +1" will make clubs heavier and therefore a logical counter to that is to go with a lighter shaft.

 

With single length irons the lie angle should not be an issue since it would be easy to fit to lie angle. And you should be able to find the shaft that fits you.

 

I am a bit skeptical as to how the SW would work out. I've played with long shafted SW's and they are not easy to used around the green. Plus, the grind may not be to my liking. I don't see why I couldn't get my own personal SW to go with the set, but I would have some curiosity as to how well it gaps with the GW.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[TomWishon]

So the length options only vary from 36.5 to 37?

 

Thought they would offer a slightly wider variance in lengths than only an half inch?

 

On the Sterling set we created, those are the two length options I designed the set to match with. However, this is ALL CUSTOM and not "standard off the rack" like all the bigs do.

 

if your best shaft was a 60-65g graphite, you could do 37.5 probably and hit a reasonable swingweight that would likely be a decent fit for you. but if your ideal shaft was 125g, and your ideal swingweight was like D0-D1, then no, making these heads into a 37.5" length would make the swingweight too high.

 

The reason we chose 36.5 to 37 as the single length is because we feel that most golfers hit their 7 and 8 irons more consistently with better swing tempo repeatability than they hit their 5 or 6 irons. In addition, we chose these shorter lengths so there is less chance for a player to hit the 9, PW, GW, SW too far - that has more of a chance of happening with a 6 or 5 iron length.

 

If we were to want to make it possible for ANY one length, then we would have to tool up and make sets with different headweights and lie angles. No different than if there were a golfer who wanted a conventional set at +1" over and still wanted D1 with his 125 gram shafts and 50g grips - you can;t do that. You have to pick headweights based on what lengths, shaft weights grip weights you want to cover. You can;t make one set of headweights work for every length.

 

LIke I am saying a lot, this is not intended to be for every golfer on the planet. But with full on custom fitting done by a decent clubfitter, it can extend its fit and performance to a lot more people than can any set sold as standard, one size/spec for every set with only a choice of flex in one kind of shaft. But even with custom fitting, there are still going to be a lot of golfers for whom this may not be the ticket to try.

 

PLEASE understand there is one and only one reason I am doing this . . . . .

 

single length has the chance to definitely offer a potential for better shot consistency, more on center hits, better shot results with low loft irons - because at single length, every club is matched PERFECTLY for shaft weight, total weight, swingweight/head feel, balance point, MOI. There are no other specs which control swing feel for a club.

 

So the potential is there for a chance for improvement if the golfer has been inconsistent with his irons or has struggled with hitting some of the irons in the set more off center than others. But it has to be properly fit for shaft weight, shaft flex/bend profile, total weight, swingweight, grip size, lie - and then depending on the golfer's swing speed and angle of attack, lofts may need to be very slightly iweaked to ensure perfect gaps.

 

That's all it is. I am NOT NOT NOT saying this is for every golfer. But I do believe from testing that if the golfer is patient and is fit right, it can work well for a very large number of golfers.

[TomWishon]

 

So, if I were to get fitted for an SL set, you would recommend filling in the top end of the bag with some of your MOI matched clubs from your other sets? Obviously, I'd want a driver, a 3 or 4 wood and a couple of long irons, probably a 3 and 4.

 

Would that be the ultimate set - 5i-GW SL and the rest in MOI matched (and shorter than standard lengths)? 5i-GW = 37", Driver 43", 4 wood 41", 3 iron 38", 4 iron 37.5" perhaps?

 

Btw, how would an SL set compare to your other MOI matched sets in relation to their MOI?

 

Man, I'm excited to try these now!

 

Great questions you ask for sure. Fun to think and answer these because this whole single length thing is fascinating to compare to incremental length, from a fitting and design standpoint. Most fun I have had in design for a long time.

 

One thing you could do is that once you got dialed in with the shaft weight, total weight, swingweight of the single lengths, measure the MOI on the Auditor Speed Match machine and then go out and use that MOI to build your hybrids that were to fall into the bag just above the lowest loft single length iron. And at the normal hybrid length you would go after beyond single length.

 

Fwys and driver are a different animal. They can't be a part of this single length concept, not at all. Because you never want to make your driver so short that you lose a lot of clubhead speed and distance. Tommy Armour found out the bad side of that back in 89-90 with their EQL wood sets all made to a 5 wood length. You always fit the driver at the longest length THAT YOU CAN CONTROL AND HIT ON CENTER MORE CONSISTENTLY. Then you key the other fwy woods off that with the idea to not go too long with the fwys because that makes it tougher to hit consistently for 14 to 18 lofts for shots hit off the deck.

 

But once you find the perfect driver shaft weight, total weight, swingweight and length for you, then you can measure its MOI with the Speed Match and use that as your guide for making the fwy woods.

 

Hope this helps

TOM

[PJ72]

Great stuff Tom.

 

You were so quick to answer my queries that you missed my edit!

 

Here it is below:-

 

EDIT:- I'm just looking at the lofts of the SL set and the 5 iron is 23 degrees, which is the same as a 4 iron about. So, without a LW and a 4 iron, most peoples' sets would only consist of 12 clubs, with good gapping all the way through. Although I suppose it would make sense to add a LW of perhaps half inch shorter than the GW.

[tx33]

If you are interested in learning more about this three moments thing, get a copy of Dr Theodore Jorgenson's book The Physics of Golf. He explains it pretty well as to what these three separate moments are in a golf club and how single length ensures they are the same for each club in a set.

 

Little trivia point - Ted Jorgenson was my freshman physics teacher in 1968-9 at the University of Nebraska - ha, small world there as it turned out.

Yup, a must have for any science oriented golf addict. He also got me on the D-plane early in my college days. Had me in stitches over PGA pro's teaching ball flight for years. Too bad they invented the Trackman....

 

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

No they won't work at 39 or 38.5 or 38 because the swingweights or rather headweight feel will be too high for the vast majority of golfers. They can work at 37.5 if you use a super light 55-60 gram shaft that fits you. And they will work at 37 and 36.5 with pretty much most shafts.

 

I think if you drill holes into these pretty heads, I will come and find you and hurt you !!!! :taunt:

 

He's 7ft you know!?

LOL, I find an 8-iron to the ankles brings down everyone to the same size. Added bonus of the Sterlings: it doesn't matter what iron you use anymore....

 

ON TOPIC: great design Tom, I'm sure you had a blast working on them. I'll be sure to order a test set come Spring. :good:

[Klap]

Tom will these work in 39"? (I asume I have to drill out a bit of headweight, but the lie angles seem pretty suitable.)

 

This might be the holy grail for all the tall players out there!

 

No they won't work at 39 or 38.5 or 38 because the swingweights or rather headweight feel will be too high for the vast majority of golfers. They can work at 37.5 if you use a super light 55-60 gram shaft that fits you. And they will work at 37 and 36.5 with pretty much most shafts.

 

I think if you drill holes into these pretty heads, I will come and find you and hurt you !!!! :taunt:

So the length options only vary from 36.5 to 37?

 

Thought they would offer a slightly wider variance in lengths than only an half inch?

 

No.

 

Those are recommended length options. It depends on the golfer.

 

For instance, if you are a tall golfer and feel you need a 37-1/2" shafts and your optimal MOI is at 2,725 and you install the clubs and they come out to 2,750, then cutting a 1/4" off may be right for you. That will drop the MOI down to roughly 2,725 so they are not too heavy for you and you're only cutting off 1/4". With anything there is some flexibility, but I would strongly advise against going with these 38+ inch clubs that many people think is desirable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

LOL Tom! Thanks for all the info here! Clubfitters must hate 7 foot tall golfers holding a 9 iron... :no2:

 

Just trying to understand :beruo: this:

I have a 39" 4 iron with an x100 shaft if you keep the shaft/lie/clubheadweight the same, only change the lofts. That would work right?

 

 

PS I've tried a 38" wedge with a lot of material drilled away and the gapping was ok, you just start pitching 5yrds sooner.

[Awalkspoiled]

This is the most exciting product I've seen in years. I LOVE the 274 headweight and plan to build a demo set and play them myself - fastest way to raise awareness is to put it in play and score with it. 36.75" happens to be a nice length for me (my current 8i) and I really don't see why I'd need to go single length all the way down to LW (I'm perfectly happy hitting driver/9i when I can get home that way) so my plan is to build 6-PW on some heavy graphite and see what's what. My customers have always had good success with Tom's iron designs and the likelihood is that these will have smooth feel to go along with the classy looks. Very, very pleased to see these on the way...

[PeanutsDaddy]

I had a bizarre thought tonight after shanking 2 PW's during an indoor simulated round. If the clubs were the length of my 8 iron I might be safe. For whatever reason the GW, PW and 9 iron can suffer from the laterals at times.

 

To be clear I do realize that a sound swing makes this a moot point, but I look to any advantage I can gain.

 

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

This is the most exciting product I've seen in years. I LOVE the 274 headweight and plan to build a demo set and play them myself - fastest way to raise awareness is to put it in play and score with it. 36.75" happens to be a nice length for me (my current 8i) and I really don't see why I'd need to go single length all the way down to LW (I'm perfectly happy hitting driver/9i when I can get home that way) so my plan is to build 6-PW on some heavy graphite and see what's what. My customers have always had good success with Tom's iron designs and the likelihood is that these will have smooth feel to go along with the classy looks. Very, very pleased to see these on the way...

 

Here are the issues I'm having accepting this concept. Now here is a club fitter who is happy with everything below PW and above 6 iron so now we've got a "single length" set that consists of 5 clubs that are the same length and the rest are of varying length.

 

The advocates are saying it is beneficial to have one swing, setup, etc.etc.etc. Is it really that much easier to have a driver swing, fairway wood swing, hybrid swing, long iron swing, "single length set" swing, and then revamp your short game because your sand wedge is now 2" longer?

 

The hangup for me is the drastic change from the single length set to my wedges (scoring clubs) and then another drastic change from the 5 iron to the 4 iron and up through the top of my bag. I see it being more confusing than helpful.

 

The thread was helpful to me because I'm now sold on the fact that this concept isn't for me. I hope it works for those of you who try it and I hope you sell a bunch of sets and help people out Tom.

[tx33]

The hangup for me is the drastic change from the single length set to my wedges (scoring clubs) and then another drastic change from the 5 iron to the 4 iron and up through the top of my bag. I see it being more confusing than helpful.

 

The thread was helpful to me because I'm now sold on the fact that this concept isn't for me. I hope it works for those of you who try it and I hope you sell a bunch of sets and help people out Tom.

Look at it this way: determine which clubs you play/swing the same way and FIT each 'group' accordingly, not the other way around. For some that means full single length, for others partial or not at all.Wedges are (or should be :)) mostly hit with finesse swings compared to irons hitting full. A different feel/length to fit that particular swing/setup makes sense. Same with the clubs (woods?) you hit of a tee vs. of the deck. Remember that iron fitting is about comfort at address, enabling the player to make a repeatable sing on target (>impact pattern). Wedges could fall in range for some, but not for others. Personally I play with 2" gaps from driver through hybrid to irons, 3/8 between irons & single length wedges, because I found out that works best for ME. And that is what fitting is all about....

[PJ72]

This is the most exciting product I've seen in years. I LOVE the 274 headweight and plan to build a demo set and play them myself - fastest way to raise awareness is to put it in play and score with it. 36.75" happens to be a nice length for me (my current 8i) and I really don't see why I'd need to go single length all the way down to LW (I'm perfectly happy hitting driver/9i when I can get home that way) so my plan is to build 6-PW on some heavy graphite and see what's what. My customers have always had good success with Tom's iron designs and the likelihood is that these will have smooth feel to go along with the classy looks. Very, very pleased to see these on the way...

 

Here are the issues I'm having accepting this concept. Now here is a club fitter who is happy with everything below PW and above 6 iron so now we've got a "single length" set that consists of 5 clubs that are the same length and the rest are of varying length.

 

The advocates are saying it is beneficial to have one swing, setup, etc.etc.etc. Is it really that much easier to have a driver swing, fairway wood swing, hybrid swing, long iron swing, "single length set" swing, and then revamp your short game because your sand wedge is now 2" longer?

 

The hangup for me is the drastic change from the single length set to my wedges (scoring clubs) and then another drastic change from the 5 iron to the 4 iron and up through the top of my bag. I see it being more confusing than helpful.

 

The thread was helpful to me because I'm now sold on the fact that this concept isn't for me. I hope it works for those of you who try it and I hope you sell a bunch of sets and help people out Tom.

 

I think Tom would like the player to have all his irons (except the 3 and 4) the same length, including the wedges, so that's 8 irons same length. The longer clubs after that would obviously be longer but, as Tom has shown with his research, they would be considerably shorter than standard lengths (i.e 43-44" driver as opposed to standard 45-46" etc).

 

The concept of having a same set up, distance from ball, swing plane etc is a sound one but perhaps not the biggest advantage of this set. The biggest advantage, by far IMO, is that the player would be hitting a 5 iron with an 8 iron shaft in it AND they would be MOI matched through the iron set.

 

My sand wedge (56degree) is 37" long, which 1" over length for Taylormade, which would be 1.5" over for Mizuno. A 37" long 5 iron would be 2" shorter than my current one. A fitting may even put me into a shorter one than that, but unlikely given my height and shortish arms.

 

I would imagine that the clubs would progress like this :-

 

5 iron (37")

4 iron (38")

3 iron (39")

4 wood (41")

Driver (43-44")

 

All of those are about 2" shorter than my current set, which must surely mean better contact and more consistency?

 

It's an interesting idea and everyone's strengths and weaknesses would dictate which end of the bag they would get most help from.

 

With the MOI matched sets and 3/8" gaps, my short irons would be even longer than they are now, so I don't know if that would make them difficult to play or not.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

The hangup for me is the drastic change from the single length set to my wedges (scoring clubs) and then another drastic change from the 5 iron to the 4 iron and up through the top of my bag. I see it being more confusing than helpful.

 

The thread was helpful to me because I'm now sold on the fact that this concept isn't for me. I hope it works for those of you who try it and I hope you sell a bunch of sets and help people out Tom.

Look at it this way: determine which clubs you play/swing the same way and FIT each 'group' accordingly, not the other way around. For some that means full single length, for others partial or not at all.Wedges are (or should be :)) mostly hit with finesse swings compared to irons hitting full. A different feel/length to fit that particular swing/setup makes sense. Same with the clubs (woods?) you hit of a tee vs. of the deck. Remember that iron fitting is about comfort at address, enabling the player to make a repeatable sing on target (>impact pattern). Wedges could fall in range for some, but not for others. Personally I play with 2" gaps from driver through hybrid to irons, 3/8 between irons & single length wedges, because I found out that works best for ME. And that is what fitting is all about....

 

This goes back to some of my early comments. I'd like the idea a lot more if there were a clear plan of what to do with the rest of my bag.

 

Tom is missing the boat big time because he's got the complimentary product to pull it off but he isn't communicating it properly. Without redesigning woods, hybrids, long irons and wedges he could recommend adding them.

 

He can LOL all he wants at my concept of him making a set that fits into what people will buy based on price and just simply the fact that enthusiasts don't buy full sets (woods irons and wedges) of clubs, he's either ill advised or letting his attitude against purist design work vs. business get the best of him. This is where he has an advantage over the large OEMs. He's got the product and flexibility that could allow him to offer complimentary clubs where a company like TM is just too big to sell individual 3 or 5 irons and it doesn't fit into their business model.

 

Like I said it's not for me at this point but once someone takes it to the next level and offers a complete plan I'll take a look.

[PJ72]

6767,

 

I think Tom alluded to what you're saying in post number 69 above:-

 

"One thing you could do is that once you got dialed in with the shaft weight, total weight, swingweight of the single lengths, measure the MOI on the Auditor Speed Match machine and then go out and use that MOI to build your hybrids that were to fall into the bag just above the lowest loft single length iron. And at the normal hybrid length you would go after beyond single length.

 

Fwys and driver are a different animal. They can't be a part of this single length concept, not at all. Because you never want to make your driver so short that you lose a lot of clubhead speed and distance. Tommy Armour found out the bad side of that back in 89-90 with their EQL wood sets all made to a 5 wood length. You always fit the driver at the longest length THAT YOU CAN CONTROL AND HIT ON CENTER MORE CONSISTENTLY. Then you key the other fwy woods off that with the idea to not go too long with the fwys because that makes it tougher to hit consistently for 14 to 18 lofts for shots hit off the deck.

 

But once you find the perfect driver shaft weight, total weight, swingweight and length for you, then you can measure its MOI with the Speed Match and use that as your guide for making the fwy woods. "

 

 

He IS recommending combining a set from within his own stock that blends the 2 concepts (SL and MOI) together. Perhaps he needs to be more clear on his website that this is the overall aim - a full set of clubs could be made up from a combination of just MOI or SL and MOI together.

 

I know where you're coming from though - it's a little frustrating to see such great products be under rated or not rated at all because hardly anyone (in the UK at least) has heard of them, even people who buy a lot clubs. I think this is going to change soon enough though, but something tells me that Tom is happy with his position in the market, although I can't say how successful he is in the US.

[tx33]

PJ, good points in respect to 6767's comments.

 

Please do remember that the Sterlings are part of a club fitters arsenal and not an of-the-rack product. A good fitter can use his entire arsenal of components and fitting concepts (SL, MOI, TLT etc) to give any golfer a "complete plan' through the bag. It just won't be the same plan for everybody, and their individual 'best' plan might surprise some golfers. For one I'm glad to have the Tom's interpretation of the SL concept at my disposal and I'm confident it will offer an improvement for some players I know.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

6767,

 

I think Tom alluded to what you're saying in post number 69 above:-

 

"One thing you could do is that once you got dialed in with the shaft weight, total weight, swingweight of the single lengths, measure the MOI on the Auditor Speed Match machine and then go out and use that MOI to build your hybrids that were to fall into the bag just above the lowest loft single length iron. And at the normal hybrid length you would go after beyond single length.

 

Fwys and driver are a different animal. They can't be a part of this single length concept, not at all. Because you never want to make your driver so short that you lose a lot of clubhead speed and distance. Tommy Armour found out the bad side of that back in 89-90 with their EQL wood sets all made to a 5 wood length. You always fit the driver at the longest length THAT YOU CAN CONTROL AND HIT ON CENTER MORE CONSISTENTLY. Then you key the other fwy woods off that with the idea to not go too long with the fwys because that makes it tougher to hit consistently for 14 to 18 lofts for shots hit off the deck.

 

But once you find the perfect driver shaft weight, total weight, swingweight and length for you, then you can measure its MOI with the Speed Match and use that as your guide for making the fwy woods. "

 

 

He IS recommending combining a set from within his own stock that blends the 2 concepts (SL and MOI) together. Perhaps he needs to be more clear on his website that this is the overall aim - a full set of clubs could be made up from a combination of just MOI or SL and MOI together.

 

I know where you're coming from though - it's a little frustrating to see such great products be under rated or not rated at all because hardly anyone (in the UK at least) has heard of them, even people who buy a lot clubs. I think this is going to change soon enough though, but something tells me that Tom is happy with his position in the market, although I can't say how successful he is in the US.

 

I understand what he's saying on a thread here but I'd just like to see more of a detailed plan that actually tells me why this will be better for my game. If Tom were my client I would recommend doing research based on sectioning off the entire bag and creating a plan for each section.

 

To me this is like going to a stack and tilt instructor and having him/her teach you only to use the swing with your irons.

 

Until someone goes one step further and applies this concept to the entire bag I'll bet against it taking off. I'm not saying one single length from driver down to LW but rationally sectioning off parts of the bag and offering consistency within each section.

 

Until then I am probably going to be happy with my clubs being consistently inconsistent in terms of length.

[PJ72]

6767,

 

I understand what you mean. I don't think it's possible to have it any other way - Driver is always going to be 6" longer than the SL irons and your fairways (woods and hybrids) are always going to be longer than the long irons (2,3 and 4) and, in turn, they will be significantly longer than the SL irons.

 

Perhaps:-

 

Driver - it's own length (43-44")

Fairways and hybrids (40")

Long irons/short hybrids (38")

SL irons (36.5-37")

 

So you'd have 4 categories of club, perhaps the fairways and long irons could be combined in to 39" length?

 

I don't think anyone really sells a set of clubs these days as an 'entire bag', you always get irons, wedges, putter, hybrids, fairways and driver. I don't see a real problem with this but there are some obvious problems with the SL set for certain types of players. Yet, if a future tour pro (Bryson) can set his bag up to compete, then maybe he's onto something?

 

I'm sure Tom has exhausted all these ideas, otherwise we would be discussing a full set of clubs in just 2 or 3 lengths.

 

 

EDIT:- Here's a thought. What if the long irons were so short that people didn't actually need to use hybrids? They were kind of invented because club manufacturers kept lengthening clubs and strengthening lofts. This is the kind of problem that Tom has described - the lofts on the shorter SL irons had to be much stronger to get the distance gaps right/enough which made them very difficult to get airborne due to the slower clubhead speed of the shorter shafts. The physics ruled them out.

 

Fascinating subject though.

[Fred Swartz]

As Tom stated this concept is not for all. I believe this will be affective to some but not a total transition to all. Let's get the product released and then solve the additional problems from experimenting rather the speculation. I also believe one with Tom's design expertise has given some thoughts which show this an on going plan of matching hybrids and woods after the proper fitting and experiencing the playability of the irons. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Remember you crawl before you walk and walk before you run!!! Thanks for the input Tom. Look forward to the release!!

[vangator1]

I've been playing SL irons for two years now. Absolutely improved my game. The biggest advantage is now I have confidence with my "long" irons. Having the other clubs different lengths is not a problem for me. The driver is a completely different swing for me. I only hit maybe 2 or 3 FW per round. The rest are irons. Helps to have the same swing plane.

 

My old set didn't have SL wedges, so I had conventional (shorter) lengths. No problem because those are more partial swings for me. Different than full swings with SL irons. The 5 - PW are SL and are money.

 

I just built a second set 4 - LW, all SL. No problem with the wedges. In fact I like them better because I can get more height and distance from them. That helps on shots I really need height on, like over a tree, but I want some distance too. With my old wedges I had to swinger harder which invites problems. Partial shots with longer wedges has not been a problem. I can always choke up on them for shots as well.

 

Go Bryson! Leader after day 1 at Abu Dhabi!

[golfnhack]

So I thought I would post about my SLI experience.

 

I bought a set of PinHawks SL's. I installed KBS C-Taper shafts. I am very meticulous about my installs, and measured and weighted EVERYTHING. Even spine aligned the shafts.

 

The first 3 rounds I played, I player fantastic! I thought these were the best things since sliced bread. But then I started to falter. I had a streak of 27 consecutive sub 80 rounds going. All of a sudden, I shoot 80, 88, and 84.

 

I then started to analyze things. I came to the conclusion that the SLI irons were the cause. Let me explain.

 

I LOVED 7-PW. No complaints there.

 

6 iron was OK. A little low trajectory.... but OK

 

5 iron was a REAL struggle. For the life of me, I could not get it in the air, and it had a noticeable right tendency. The distance gap between the 5 and 6 iron was also not sufficient... even though the loft was clearly stronger. I the switched out the 5 iron for a PingHawk 4 hybrid. Normal loft for the hybrid was 20*, but Aaron found one that was 22*. The thought was that the lower CG would maybe allow me to hit it higher than the 24* 5 iron. That was not the case. Trajectory was the same, although it went a little further. The downside was that it is incredibly awkward to hit a 7 iron length Hybrid. It just felt extremely weird. I can't image hitting an 8 iron length hybrid (like the Wishon SLI's). Both the 5 iron and 4 hybrid trajectory were about HALF the height I hit my 2 Hybrid. When I traced back my first 3 rounds with the SLI irons where I played so well, I realized that the only bad shots I hit... were all with the 5 iron.

 

As for GW, SW, and LW. I LOVED these irons on full shots. As someone with a relatively steep angle of attack, I have always had gapping issues with my wedges. My PW is my 132 yard club. The problem is that my GW was always my 105-120 yard club. I never knew how far it would go. Some times I would be 20 yards short of the pin. The SLI wedges fixed that issue.

 

BUT!!!!! I have never had a spectacular chipping/pitching game. It is the weakness of my game. However, with the SLI wedges are long and bulky. My short game went from OK to just plain horrid. I mean HORRID. We are talking double hits, sod over bad. I had not had those issues since I was a 15 handicapper back in high school. I lost ALL confidence the SLI irons for chipping/pitching, and literally started putting everything from off the green.

 

Last week I made the decision to go back to my regular irons. I am hitting them really well, and my 5 iron trajectory is back to normal. My pitching/chipping has vastly improved.

 

I will be playing my first round with my old club on Sunday, and will report back.

 

I don't know if Wishon's SLI's will fix the trajectory issues with the long irons. They are even stronger lofted than the PinHawks. I would be interested to hear feedback on them when they are releases.... as well as feedback on the short irons.

 

PS: I am expecting replies like "Well... what do you expect when you have C-Tapers in them?". I have C-tapers in my old set. I have used them for 4 years. I have NEVER had trajectory issues with them. I use them because for me, there is no better shaft from a dispersion point of view.

[ode1]

I've been playing SL irons for two years now. Absolutely improved my game. The biggest advantage is now I have confidence with my "long" irons. Having the other clubs different lengths is not a problem for me. The driver is a completely different swing for me. I only hit maybe 2 or 3 FW per round. The rest are irons. Helps to have the same swing plane.

 

My old set didn't have SL wedges, so I had conventional (shorter) lengths. No problem because those are more partial swings for me. Different than full swings with SL irons. The 5 - PW are SL and are money.

 

I just built a second set 4 - LW, all SL. No problem with the wedges. In fact I like them better because I can get more height and distance from them. That helps on shots I really need height on, like over a tree, but I want some distance too. With my old wedges I had to swinger harder which invites problems. Partial shots with longer wedges has not been a problem. I can always choke up on them for shots as well.

 

Go Bryson! Leader after day 1 at Abu Dhabi!

 

I think this is the crux of the matter for me, and that is I do swing differently with my d and fwy woods vs. The irons, so it wouldnt make a diff.

 

? For you on the second set is how you adjusted to chipping and pitching and bunker play with the longer wedge (s).....i have moved to 3/8" spread and this has helped on full shots with the wedges being slightly longer and not as much crouching over, but I could not get used to the chip/pitch/bunker shots with my gw and sw at pw length....which i thought would simplify my wedge game, full shots were great, but those shots around the green i could not get used to. Do you choke up? Or have you adjusted to the longer length wedges for touch shots around the green?

[JCAG]

I have a question on shaft flex/frequency. As the heads are all the same weight and the clubs the same length, I am assuming it will be flat line meaning shafts all tip trimmed the same amount. Comments and suggestions please.

[PJ72]

I have a question on shaft flex/frequency. As the heads are all the same weight and the clubs the same length, I am assuming it will be flat line meaning shafts all tip trimmed the same amount. Comments and suggestions please.

 

Yes, I'm pretty certain that Tom cleared that up (may have been on s actual website forum though). I think someone asked him about the hosel diameter in the hybrid as opposed to the irons and he explained that the shafts are exactly the same

[trhode]

I have a question on shaft flex/frequency. As the heads are all the same weight and the clubs the same length, I am assuming it will be flat line meaning shafts all tip trimmed the same amount. Comments and suggestions please.

 

Yes, that is the recommended way to build these. Or, you can use the same taper tip shaft in every head. Same deal.

[TitlePured]

Why not use stepped or flighted shafts for single length? The long and short iron would benefit from the launch characteristics and I'm sure the weighting could be sorted out. A butt trimmed set of taper tips wouldn't work because?