Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Conrad1953]

I love it. That's my favorite way to practice. I wish I had a course around here where I could do it. You can hit balls from every kind

of lie and at different distances from greens and really fine tune your game in a way you just can't do on a range; or even on practice

areas since on those you're stuck with short chips and pitches and usually hitting to a green that is not a "real" green where balls

roll out as they would on a real green. Wow, that was one heckuva run on sentence, lol.

[scomac2002]

《Perhaps we can have an additional discussion about how to get the most from the swing/game we bring to the course on any given day》

Yes, let's do that if we can. I'm all for picking up some tips about maximizing my game when I don't have much going for me.

[Sean2]

What's worked for me is my short game. I work very hard on it. You don't need to be young or athletic to develop a decent short game.

[scomac2002]

Care to share with us what you work on? What sort of drills you do or any other tips to improving your short game?

[billh17]

@ Reason : enjoyed the swing/release editorial. I am one of the guys who doesn't really know what a release is.

Having played baseball for way too many years,I grasp the extra ummmmph the "oily wrist" can give. Before my latest

incident, I was working on your idea. My thought is it is totally timing for me. But I will attest,when I managed to do it.

the impact had a different sound and feel. I did not notice any great increase in distance, and I really did not want to mess with my swing too much. I find a lot of fairways and have gotten lazy and do not want to screw it up ! When I start swinging again I may try it once more, simply because when i caught one it just sounded much more solid, so now I am curious what I can do if i can get the timing down ! And I will dwaddle into my old age still never knowing if i am releasing the club or not !

[Sean2]

Regarding chipping and short pitches, I hit balls from a variety of lies...from tight lies to lies where you can barely see the top of the ball (it's amazing how hard you have to hit the ball to advance it out of such lies, even if you have no green to work with). I practice short sided shots as well as one's where I have a lot of green to work with, and anything in between. I practice flop shots from a variety of lies. I also practice hitting bunker shots. For longer pitches I set the pins at 20 yard intervals starting at 25 yards and going up to 85 yards (we also have a pitching range), and practice hitting my different wedges a variety of distances. For putting I practice down hill, up hill, side hill, long and short.

I carry both 58 º and 62º lob wedges. I use those mainly around the greens. If I have a lot of green to work with, I will use the 50º or 54º. At this point I expect to get up and down most every time I have a chip, or short pitch. My longer pitches still need work...40 to 85 yards. Today I hit the cup on three of my chips/pitches.

In any case, a couple of years ago I dedicated a lot of practice to my short game and it has paid off. My full swing is so-so, but my short game is fairly decent. The former requires athletic ability, lol.

[scomac2002]

@Sean2 interesting stuff. At one time I used only wedges for the short game which was essentially a 52 or a 54 that became one tool for all shots and varying the distance by way of how long the swing was. At some point I read some stuff probably by Paul Runyan that made a lot of sense and that was to have one swing and then vary the distance by amount of run out using different clubs: SW, PW, 8i, 6i, etc. That was the first time I ever considered using an iron to chip with. Made all sorts of sense, but never could figure it out how to chip it the correct distance and then let the ball roll out. Now I'm basically paralyzed around the green. Bad short game leads to way too many putts. The pressure on the putting leads to more misses and trying to be perfect with the stroke. No wonder I can't score!
I can probably hit the ball well enough to be a single digit player, perhaps even a low single digit player, but the non athletic part of the game escapes me. Always has...

[BIG STU]

Absolutely!!! In my younger days my short game was they only way I could play competitively. I was long and wild off the tee. I could get out of jail with a 5 iron or hitting short irons over trees etc. Then the wedges and putter would bail me out. My old man hated my game he was all about FIRs and GIRs and he was good at it he was not just a stellar putter. I remember we played a money match one time with him hitting and me putting. We shot like 61 and killed the 2 guys we were playing. Man that was some serious money us playing those guys individually and 2 down automatic press. But back in those days that was all I practiced even when working. On rainy days the hustlers had a game they played from the clubhouse hitting off the concrete to the 9th hole on the Par 3 course. I practiced it sometimes in the late evenings and early mornings. Got good at it. I had my own hustle there. If I knew the day was going to be a rain out I would go out early and change the cup on #9 to my favorite position. Used to do the closest to the pin thing for $20 a pop. When I was younger those guys would pay me to retrieve balls and measure. Got to playing in those games when I got older. wonder how at 16 years old I was able to buy a 66 Chevelle Super Sport cash and pay cash for a high Performance 427 engine to put in it? And no one ever caught on that I had 3 favorite pin positions. Titanic Thompson was a friend of my old man and he roosted there for a short while. I learned something from him. My old man had me meet him early one morning. He had me fill and cap a 50 ft water hose and leave it on that green for about a half hour after the sun came up. He also had me cut the green early. Had me pull the hose about 6:oo that morning. also had me put the pin in a certain position. Later on that day he bet a guy $1000 he could make one out of 3 putts from 50 ft. Most of the locals knew it was darn near an impossible putt and 5 or 6 of them jumped on the bet. He made the last one of course he could have made the first one. He came to the shop and paid me $200 and a piece of advice " Got to get up early and work to win some of these hustles" OOPs got off of topic.

Edit--- Since I am off topic anyhow--- I tried to hustle him for $20 on the hitting off the concrete game and he told me he knew I was good at it and would not bite. Finally he bit the second day and I beat him. I can say I am one of the few folks that beat Titanic Thompson out of one thin dime. He would not bite on the second go round and told me a good hustler needs to know when to pull up. Found out later on in life from my old man that he had asked my old man and my old man had told him no one could beat me at that game, My old man told me later on when I was 25 or so that Titanic wanted to try me because he liked me and thought maybe he could beat me but did not care if I took $20 off of him. My old man was smart too sometimes and had figured out my pin position thing. He told me Titanic had figured it out too and if he had really wanted to beat me he would have insisted I change the pin

[Fellaheen51]

Ha. Great hustle story @BIG STU. Especially enjoyed the 50' hose hustle. Would have thought some of those sharpie's would figure out they were being hustled and stop throwing their $$ away. A hustler got to know when they were being hustled. Kind of a 6th sense. Did you ever lose just enough to set them up, just before reeling them in with the big play? Winning the moolah every time, all the time, peeps begin to think something's fishy.
One of my Father's favorite bromides: "Got to get up pretty early and work to.......".
Wasn't it you that posted about practicing wedge shots off a wood "platform" to improve ball contact? Something like that IIRC. And seem to remember a past contributor actually trying it and said it helped. Don't believe I'll hit my wedges off concrete though.
Hope your recuperation process continues to trend positively.

[Sean2]

We seem to have the opposite problem, lol. Our club champion four years running told me he would love to have my short game, I told him I would love to have his full swing, :-). Maybe starting as late as I did has something to do with it (started playing at age 50). In any event, my full swing could use work, lol.

[Fellaheen51]

With Brother @scomac2002, single biggest impediment to meaningful scorecard improvement is short game proficiency. Setting aside putting as it's an entirely different methodology. Those short chips and pitches around the green that require some touch and execution skills. Gives be the jeebies every time I'm faced with one. Which is frequently, as I don't bomb GIR all that often. Half way OK from further out, when I can utilize something resembling a "normal" swing, full or 3/4. Faultiness more of a directional issue, rather than and execution one.
So susceptible to the chunk (ball goes nowhere) & blade (ball screams across the green, leaving me in a worst position than I where started). I would guesstimate this occurs 75% of the time when faced with these types of shots. Maddening. Frustrating. Definitely yipiness territory.
Did some reading on the subject awhile back. Stance appx. 20* open to clear the hips, ball position back, weight over the lead foot, lead arm stiff and leads the stroke, firm wrists, etc. Was practicing it quite a bit in the yard during the Vid 'stay at home' period back in April. Chipping to a stake about 30' away. Ball after ball for 30 minutes whenever I could. Felt I was getting the hang of it, but every shot was essentially the same flat lie. One can start hitting OK shots through pure repetition alone. Except it didn't carry over to the course in any meaningful way.
Biggest problem as I see it is keeping my wrists from being flippy. Want to flick at these types of shots all the time. Know I shouldn't do it, try to keep them firm, but they want to come unhinged when I'm out there playing. And when I focus on keeping them rigid, the bladed screamer often results. IDK. Like @Sean2, practice and more practice. Dedicate oneself to getting rid of the faults, acquire the feel for proper execution. But at the moment, don't know if anything I'm doing is "best practice". Any tips in this area would be welcome.
FWIW. Tried shipping/pitching with the same swing but change the iron utilized. Didn't work so well for me either. Never became comfortable with a longer iron in hand. Now days, mostly use a 9 iron or GW depending on how high of a trajectory I wanting to play and the length of runout. If I have to go high (to play over a trap for instance), it's a SW opened slightly. Many of the courses played are conducive to the chip and run as they're typically fairly open around the greens. Especially in front. The chipping is so abysmal, I've taken to using a putter from well off the green and whacking it towards the hole. The probability of a successful outcome is higher than with a chipping club in hand. Really penalizing oneself if your par putts are routinely occurring from 25' away.
Not been one to stat track when I'm playing. But may be an interesting exercise next time out. Determine how many of these shots I'm faced with during a round, and to what extent there are negative outcomes.
Further note. Took a 58* wedge along yesterday during the practice outing. Never been confident utilizing a lofted lob wedge prior. Used it a fair amount, attempting to come to an understanding. Hit some decent shots with it. Encouraging. Even dropped a shot from 30 yards out to 2". (Laughed to self.) Probably take it along on the next sojourn. Likely means I won't be able to hit worth a lick when it's the bag for real.

[Qqq123xx]

I concur. Very rarely just go to a range and pound balls. Actually mostly at a range just to warm up for a round. I might practice couple times a week with a small range bucket. Do a lot of chipping/putting though. Especially at home.

[scomac2002]

I should learn to keep my mouth shut. Invariably I will make some sort of "claim" and immediately be proven wrong or boastful or any other negative outcome.

Played 9 this morning with the usual Saturday morning group and my ball striking was pooh, particularly with the driver. It didn't get me in trouble, but I was back to hitting those low knuckle balls that go nowhere. Didn't putt particularly well either as I was invariably faced with long putts, so that lead to a couple of three jacks. Hit a few decent iron shots and a couple of nice hybrids to give me looks at par (or better). Perhaps the highlight of the round was making a couple of quality chips to tap in range. In both instances I was using an AW. I tired using a 9 iron for a bump and run from just off the green and ran both attempts straight through and off the other side... SW came up short when I pitched from about 20 yards out, so have quite a bit of work to do with that club to get it useful. It's really quite strange to me because I've always been quite handy with a SW in hand. May have to bench the CBX permanently because it's costing me strokes. Will stick with the current putter for the time being because any other options I have are heavier and I'm making confident strokes now, but running them by the hole, so switching putters is just liable to compound problems.

I've got 9 games in the books now with a range of 40-48. That's fairly consistent scoring, but I've done it by all different sorts of means, so my play has been far from consistent. Today's effort was a 43. Meh...

[BIG STU]

Oh yeah hustles I have had a few--- Gave a guy 2 drives off of every hole requiring a driver again 2 down automatic press with the presses contuning for 18 holes. It was in the summer and he had me like 2 down and 1 down after the first 9 but then he got tired swinging that heavy persimmon driver and I reeled him in.

Yep I was the one who told you about hitting balls off of my back deck or off a piece of plywood. Helps you clip one off of hardpan or a tight lie. Now you do have to use a low bounce wedge.

Kinda got in the game today. My gang was out there and we basically had 4 players and 5 putters. Yep we played another group with me putting only. I used my old Bullseye and we did win one $2 bet. I feel fine and obviously home now. I have been putting with a conventional putter for 2 days now

[Sean2]

@BIG STU Great story, lol!

[Sean2]

@Fellaheen51 I use both a 58º and a 62º. The latter is great for short-sided shots, as well as flop shots. Took a lot of practice to get that one more or less dialed in, but can still muff one on occasion.

[Reasonability]

Gents your tolerance in suffering thru a release rant is appreciated. Some things old Reason puts out there may reasonate more with some than others. Knowing something's here and there are at least dabbled with is cool knowing some things do and some don't work so well for others. And that's ok. There's a spectrum of golfers when it comes to swing-ology. I'm self aware as to where I'd be caregorized.. There are those who need to know how and why, those who absolutely don't, and most who fit somewhere in between. Both ends of the spectrum are filled with golfers of all ability. But at least we're part of this great game together, right?

I have serious doubt many golfers stand to learn everything they'll ever need to know at the range.

My best friend locally is a PGA pro. He's quite ill at present. I run his practice facility for him several times weekly. As such, I'm a firsthand witness to the fact there are those who practice very wisely. They have a focus and purpose. I don't usually know what that focus/purpose t is for them. But they clearly have it. They vary clubs, targets, and shots. They spend ample time on their short game. They pace themselves. And they know when to STOP and go home. And from getting to know many of them.... they play golf as often as their life affords rather than becoming total range rats. There's just no replacement (IMO) for getting out there on the course, where all the varied shot making options are in front of you, and every stick in the bag is likely to get it's turn. So I'll sum it up by suggesting one in absence of the other probably isn't the best plan, but we all have to recognize/appreciate what each other's life and priorities will allow.

As to making a video of your own swing. Can't stress enough:

Every swing has things going on in it that are very good. As in excellent. 99% are completely unaware of their own inventory of things they need not ever compromise no matter what else is tinkered with. These things fuel the shots that keep us coming back. Yet most of us can't call upon them because they've never been known to us. Sad.Golfers frequently see themselves on video for the first time and want to delete it. Not sure what's behind this but it's almost universal. All objectivity goes out the window and all negativity takes over. You will likely be your own worst critic. By miles.Therefore... if you want to share your swing for no other reason to get objectivity and learn what's actually "good", then you're in the right place. But if the whole notion bothers you on some deeper level for any reason at all, then by all means don't do it.Discussing how to work with your swing on the fly out on the course??? I'm genuinely all ears. Believe it or not - I hate playing golf swing. LOVE playing golf.

Short game versus full swing practice... Hard to argue which is most likely to drive lower scores.

 

[Conrad1953]

Great point on the practice Sean. The high lofted wedges require a lot of practice and play to get and stay sharp with them.

They are very demanding clubs to hit requiring precision that only comes with putting in the time it takes to get it. When I was

playing a lot my 60 degree wedge was my friend. When my playing time was severely curtailed I got to a point where I had

to just pull that club from my bag........and I have yet to put it back in.

[Reasonability]

Chipping and pitching seems to always boil down to two broad choices, right?

Either we stand with the weight forward and quiet the wrists, OR we don't stand more on one leg than the other and let the wrists hinge. At the end of the day it always seems like a shot calls for some version of plan A or B.

Wish I didn't but know all too well the joys of the dreaded "stab" or "chunk" possible with either plan.

Just food for thought here. More of an open ended question than rant.

What if...

Whatever the landing spot imagined, whatever our eye sees as a lot or a little roll-out, what if the main consideration from that point on was about how the sole of that club is going to react to whatever it's acceleration into and through?

Just asking if that all by itself would or would not shape how we grip it, address it, and hit it both in practice and play.

The insinuation here is I for one am guilty of plan A or B thinking ahead of imaging how to get my stick to react with the lie with the least possible tension and resistance. And my guess is on those occasions when I get it right, my setup and level of wrist action may have had a little of A and B at the same time. Maybe neither!

Just asking.

Edit: Fwiw - for me, keeping the arms moving through the shot helps me chip better. Ball rolls out more. Easier that way to pick a closer landing spot from which it rolls out like a putt. So I suppose I'm playing golf swing in this case as I do it consciously when chipping. Makes me stab at it less.

[Reasonability]

Dedicated to...

My buddy Bill on the mend.

The recovering Stu

The painfully ill Tol.

The MIA Sixty.

And wherever you are, Wriggs.

 

Here's to you guys!

[Fellaheen51]

@Reasonability. FWIW, don't ever hold back on a discussion of Swing-ology. I for one appreciate the time taken to flesh out the "full monty" of an analysis on a particular swing point and/or issue. As one never knows what useful kernel(s) may be gleaned from the discussion. Your dissertations (ha!) on the subject is an instrumental part of the DNA of this thread. And was missed while you were on hiatus. When we were clamoring for a little swing talk back in the Spring. When many of us were stuck at home. As Conrad (and you) said......"You're amongst friends here Bro".
Your swing postings get saved in the "Reason's Swing Things" file. Several pages worth now. Read through them now and again when things are skewed up.
The problem with the creation of a swing video. The camera makes me appear older, heavier, and less handsome than the image I have conjured in my mind. There, I look and swing like Fred Couples. Illusions are difficult to cast aside. Reality bites.

[Fellaheen51]

The chip and pitch problems may very well be an issue (amongst others) of "acceleration" through the ball. With the realization that I have a tendency to quit on the swing, thus stabbing at the ball. Whether it be method A or B. My "fear" with a fuller extension and acceleration is that I'll be hitting the ball further from the intended target. But already doing that with the all to frequent bladed chip that screams across the green.

Perused though the chip and pitch section of Tom Watson's "The Timeless Swing" book again last night. One I find useful because his analysis tends to be succinct and easy to understand with lots of pictures. He addressed the acceleration issue. He seems to be an advocate of keeping one's wrists firm.

Playing this morning. Going to focus on acceleration though the ball when chipping. Gotta trust it, don't quite on the swing.

[scomac2002]

@Fellaheen51; you and me both brother! I find myself quitting on the swing, being overly tentative for fear of blasting it through the green because as we both know, that happens all too often when a confident pass is made and then we pop up too quickly to see the result which ends up being bladed... It would appear for both of us that the 6 inches between the ears is the biggest gap to cross. Maddening, frustrating and discouraging all at the same time. I sometimes wonder if you and I are mirror images of the same player in many ways.
For today's game I'm putting my older more traditional SW back in the bag and will see how that plays out over the next few games. I'm also finding that I've lost some permanent length this year and as a result am playing more 7W and less 5h. The problem being that the 7W is a bit too long for two of the par 3's whereas the 5h is clearly not long enough. Back to the 4h for a bit to see how that plays out perhaps in place of both clubs for the time being. By doing this I'm going to force myself to hit my 3/4W more often for long approaches and hopefully I can gain a bit more confidence with that off the deck.
Playing every other day for a stretch has also brought another issue to light which is unfortunately the dreaded tendinitis. I've been doing all the appropriate stretches before I play and it's not a serious issue yet, but I do feel a bit of a twinge in my wrist. Will need to ice after playing going forward. Also with that in mind I've sourced a couple of graphite shafted irons for use in a short set should the need become acute. Just need to pull the trigger before they're gone. Already thinking about the 8 club short set in Sunday bag, walking and carrying.

[Sean2]

That was the big break through for me regarding the short game...I don't take the club as far back, and that insures I accelerate through the shot. If I take the club too far back I have to decelerate or I will overshoot my target. Same with putting.

[scomac2002]

Interesting. I was watching a video last night of a single figure handicap player chipping -- it was a Square Strike video -- and he had almost no backswing. He was almost flicking the club at the ball and he was running balls up to the cup from all sorts of different distances. It looked to be a very unorthodox move for chipping versus what you typically see taught and yet he had mastered it completely. He was pretty much automatic from anywhere around the green at getting up and down based on his chipping proficiency.

You might wonder how I came to be watching a Square Strike video, but I linked onto it after watching a couple of Stacked Golf videos. It seems that both Ashley and Jon are enamoured with this chipping club and they got one for Jon's father for Father's Day (along with a golf membership). They had been quiet for a while due to COVID, but are now back in full swing with their thrifting videos and on course vlogs. Best I can figure is that flipping golf clubs is what they do for a living along with whatever revenue they can generate from their YouTube channel which is probably pretty good at this point with 25000 subscribers. It's was a cute idea, but you have to wonder how long they can keep it going?

[scomac2002]

I guess I'll start. Maybe @Fellaheen51 had better luck today than I did. It was a very strange round with a birdie and two pars mixed in with a whole bunch of disasters. I managed to find a way to card ever score possible from a 2 to an 8 over nine holes. The only thing I missed out on was an Ace and even that I made an attempt at on the closing 200 yd. par 3. I had a good drive right at the flag just short as I got under it a bit. It would have been a real hoot if I had of pulled it off.
It all comes down to the short game and I'm getting worse at it, not better. I should probably quit playing altogether until I can find a place to practice and spend a fair bit of time trying to figure this out. One bad shot leads to another. A miss ends up in the worst possible place with no chance for recovery. As it is trying to play through this the whole thing just begins to snowball. I don't know what to do anymore.

[Sean2]

Sorry to hear about your frustrations Scomac. I am fortunate that our facility has a great short game practice area (a 100 yard grass driving range, bunker complex, putting/chipping green, and a 9 hole short course where the average hole is around 73 yards long). Any courses in your area with a practice green where you could practice chipping and short pitches?

This can be a very frustrating game at times, and will always be a journey and never a destination. While I strive to get better, at 65 I have come to accept that I have certain limitations. All I can do is the best I can with what I have. Demanding anything more is not fair to me, and something the golf gods won't allow, lol. Yes, I wish I was a better ball striker, and once in a while I hit THAT shot, and wonder why I don't do it more often, but it is what it is. I either accept it, or find something else to do. But what other activity can I engage in that keeps me out doors for 5 to 6 hours (including practicing)? It's not just about the golf, but the fresh air, sunshine, exercise, and social interactions. Sometimes when I get frustrated, I remind myself how lucky I am to be able to play the game at all, so there is that.

Best of luck going forward.

[Conrad1953]

Well, I'm playing for the first time in 12 days tomorrow......as long as the weather cooperates. 40% chance of T-Storms at tee time

tomorrow morning......so we'll see.

 

 

 

[Conrad1953]

Perspective matters a lot. One of the many things I enjoy about hanging out with you guys here is the perspectives you bring to

the table................and the game.

[billh17]

@ Conrad, have you played the new Titleist, TRU FEEL? supposed to be the softest they have...one of the guys in my group

is playing it, and loves it. Says he has picked up a club in length.